Half-giants: A bit of tweaking maybe?

[Angela Christine]

Regarding tall people getting hit in the head by short people, the only explanation I've been able to swallow is that the tall person was bending at the time.  Halflings that bounce up and down like Tigger, or run up trees and do back-flips off them seem silly.  A halfling climbing a halfgiant and hanging off his back while hitting him in the head seems slightly less silly, but there is nothing in the combat code to indicate that it is happening or even possible.  If a tall person is trying to hit or grab a small person they will bend down from time to time, not all the way to the ground of course, but perhaps enough to bring their head into poking range.  A half-giant will probably have to bend slightly just to see the halfling.

Kicks to the head . . . that is just silly.  Halfling sized creatures should not be able to kick standing human sized creatures in the head.  Human sized creatures should not be able to kick standing half-giants in the head.  (But size isn't the only factor, body shape matters too.  A mekillot is huge, but it's chin may be quite close to the ground, so kicking a mekillot in the chin might be possible.)



Angela Christine

[jcarter]

Just because something is big doesn't mean it will be fast. For crying out loud, a camel spider can run up to 10MPH. That's a decent pace for a human, much less something smaller than a human's foot.

Furthermore, a half giant's size can also be its weakness. Sure, they have an enormous reach, but a smart fighter is going to get close enough to them where it becomes a hindrance and stick close to them.

It's a half-giant. As has been said, many of them are not very smart. That means that half-giants are going to have a hell of a time learning how to properly defend themselves.

This thread is veering off into god knows where, debating about how smart Yogi the Bear is and god knows what else with six pages of "discussion" for the sake of "discussion".

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you want to give them bigger advantages, they should have bigger disadvantages.

No.  The rest of your arguements are ridiculous, so I'll assume that this is your true concern.

Their advantages and disadvantages should not be equal, they should be tailored realistically according to what they are, and then given an equivalent karma level based equally on their power, their potential for abuse, and their difficulty to role-play.  The prerequisite knowledge of the gameworld required to play them should also be taken into consideration.

This is the system as it stands.  If you don't like it, suggest a change, but even so this isn't the thread to suggest such a change.

[Maybe42or54]

Their advantages and disadvantages should not be equal, they should be tailored realistically according to what they are, and then given an equivalent karma level based equally on their power, their potential for abuse, and their difficulty to role-play.  The prerequisite knowledge of the gameworld required to play them should also be taken into consideration.

Exactly,  wasn't suggesting otherwise. If they get more advantages, it only makes sense that some of their disadvantages come into effect.

This is the system as it stands.  If you don't like it, suggest a change, but even so this isn't the thread to suggest such a change.

You are joking right? *shrug* I am countering the They should just have more advantages! I want the More disadvantages!

And I would love to know how pointing out that Bears have evolved into the machines they are, where as Half-giants were made that way, is a ridiculous statement.

[Armaddict]

Sure, they have an enormous reach, but a smart fighter is going to get close enough to them where it becomes a hindrance and stick close to them.

In my opinion, that works out grand until there's a giant knee under your jaw or a -very- powerful, -very- violent shove.

Size really doesn't dictate speed that much.  One of my big peeves with movies is that they make big monsters lumbering and slow.  A giant snake with the exact same body build as the the normal size will be just as fast, as well.

I don't think half-giants are going to be swinging a club so incredibly slow that they're easy to dodge (and my other big deal...how the crap does someone parry that?!).  On the contrary, the larger weapon might make it harder, since you have to get further out of the way.

What I -do- think might happen is huge man might get a weapon that is too huge...recovery times might suffer.   But that's already factored in by the slow attack speeds from low agility.


I guess, I think...my biggest problem is that I think even a skilled warrior should take any half-giant seriously.  And I don't want it to be over the whole subdue/hit/knockout deal.  I'd like to see that be less of a necessity for a 'young' half-giant.  Blows from a being that large would be -incredibly- hard to parry well...evasion is by far the more effective defense against such things, if you're fast enough to get out of the way.  Once you -do- get hit, yes...it -hurts-.  But the sheer power of that hit is not usually reflected.  Getting full on hit by a huge two handed warhammer in the hands of that big of a being...realistically...would likely kill most.

But we don't want that, because that's just blatant destruction and kind of takes the fun out of the encounter.  But some sort of knockdown or something would be excellent.

Basically...I -really- want to see half-giants put into the classic scene that comparatively sized beings from other fantasy worlds are put in.  Ogres, trolls, giants, whatever.

I want to actually see circles of three and four guys around them, avoiding huge swings that could take their head off until they can slowly whittle it down and overwhelm.  The guy who takes them down by himself is crazy courageous, and either extremely lucky or extremely experienced in taking them down.  It's not a common deal.

As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout.  And I -hate- that.  And so does everyone who dies to it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout.  And I -hate- that.  And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too.  But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

[Armaddict]

Armaddict wrote:
As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout. And I -hate- that. And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too. But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

Well...I'd do it too, but the point is...it sucks using it and I know it sucks having it used on you.  Thus why I'd rather see some changes made, so that not everyone had to feel so cheated.

[jhunter]

Armaddict wrote:
As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout. And I -hate- that. And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too. But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

Well...I'd do it too, but the point is...it sucks using it and I know it sucks having it used on you.  Thus why I'd rather see some changes made, so that not everyone had to feel so cheated.

Me too. I completely agree. Unfortunately it is the only thing you can do with them that displays the sheer might they should have over other humanoids and even then, it isn't fully realistic. Many things that shouldn't have a prayer in breaking free can and do consistently.
And as for half-giants being slow...yes they're supposed to be slower than other humanoids. They're -not- encased in their own sphere of gelatin that hinders their every move. Currently, the code represents them as not just slower but similar to being forced to attempt to move through sludge that only affects them. They are unrealistically -too- slow.

[Ghost]

Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL.

Find me a dimwitted, or a business, human that can survive in the wild for 20 years

Irrelevant.  The same goes the other way if we are to compare the IQ.  Find a bear who can survive in a metropolis without a cage for 20 years?  It will just be shot and put in a cage or killed.

The environment they live in will reflect the behaviour of the beast.  Sure a bear has superior survival instincts than an average human.  But when it comes to comparing a zalanthan halfgiant and a bear, I would think they will be similar in that.  A cornered halfgiant, and a cornered bear should -not- be engaged in melee.

Currently, the code represents them as not just slower but similar to being forced to attempt to move through sludge that only affects them. They are unrealistically -too- slow.

I agree to that.  They are slow, when it is compared to the body proportion.  But they should not be slow when compared to a human.  A swing of a halfgiant should sweep more than 10 feet arc in much less than a second.  And I would not think a human could dodge that if he is within the reach of the halfgiant.  That means, if the human hit the halfgiant that round, or attemted to hit him, he should get hit too.

[TheGivingTree]

I always thought that range and size would make up for the lack of accuracy.   :? But meh, you'd know how scary a half-giant would be if he could swing a giant club fast as a human? He/she would maul any warrior in mere seconds.  :shock: I've seen big people in action, and they ain't so slow. Ex: An overweight cop is full of surprises! O.o If it's a matter of balancing the game, then it's reasonable that the half-giant's attack speed is slow/depowered.

[Dakkon Black]

It's frustrating when you don't play to a HG's excessive strengths either. Try to do something different and kick an elf. Land that massive foot right into it's chest, and you know what kind of damage you do? Not much.

I think the bomb would be:

An elf is here, fighting you!
An elf is here, fighting you!

kick elf

Your kick plows into the elf's chest, sending him flying north!

look

and elf is here, looking quite uncertain as he fights you.

I digress,

HG's are absolutely destructive right now. They can slay things dead. Unless it can parry. Heaven forbid that little elf has a parrying dagger, because then an impenetrable wall of dagger stops your massive two handed war axe.

Then there's the disarm. I've seen a few npc's out there disarm three weapons off a HG as fast as he could wield them. I realize they are stupid, but....

A few other issues like stabs to the head from a bloody short dwarf are annoying, and hard to rp.

Emote takes a swing at ~halfling, and at the last moment sinks to his knees, crouching as he presses his head to the ground defensively.

I dunno. After all my hg experience, I think they are a total blast as they sit right now. But, having alot of fun rp wise isn't always realistic, could they use some changes here and there, yeah.

Perhaps even a racial skill that all HG's get might be an idea. *shrugs*

[FightClub]

A few other issues like stabs to the head from a bloody short dwarf are annoying, and hard to rp.
*shrugs*

You got two heads, use them.

[Kalden]

Indeed, the word head has multiple meanings, for those who have forgotten. Half-giants are easier to hit in the crotch. You die quick from that bloodloss.

[TheGivingTree]

Hehe, that idea reminds me of that one scenario where this girl cries, "Mommy, it's windy out here!" The mother would reply, "No honey, that's daddy with his leaf-blower." O.o Nothing sexual about that. Just a machine blowin' leaf...  I banish thy feeble dirty minds! Rawr!   Minds out of the gutter! I just have a feeling that example someone is gonna make it into something sexual. T.T

Anyways, the point is that I'm just contrasting the idea of crotch = head to windy day = daddy's leaf blower. It's as if someone poured mustard over your car and claiming that they've done a real nice paint job. O_o But using head for crotch is clever imagination! Aye! -claps-

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As has been said, many of them are not very smart. That means that half-giants are going to have a hell of a time learning how to properly defend themselves.

Actually, I really disagree with this particular statement. Anything will learn how to defend itself. Now half-giants do have the maturity of a 6-10 year old, but this does not nessessarily mean that they have the incapacity to learn that a 6-10 year old does. You'll find that those are two completely different things.

On the topic of the flaws of a half-giant, I do suggest several things.

I would like to see hits be metted out in the proper areas for races fighting half-giants. This means that, of PC races, only the very tallest elf or another half-giant should ever have a chance to hit a HG in the head or neck. A dwarf or a halfling should only be able to hit a HG on the foot, the ankle, the leg, and the waist.

I would like to see a small change to the abilities of foes fighting HGs and like-powered creatures. A foe's parry should almost always be coverted to an agility check to see if you can dodge the HG's attack. Those that are not should have a strength check to see if the weapon is knocked flying. Only two-handed weapons should be able to disarm a HG. A bash against a half-giant should nearly always fail, if it does not now.

If these changes are brought into play, then I do not think agility should be changed for the half-giant. I would, however, venture that a half-giant should get an extra 50 hit-points attached to the current determining factors, as a bonus.

[Sakra]

The7DeadlyVenomz -Thumbs up (N/T)

[Naiona]

To step up and repeat what Halaster and others on staff have said here:

Half giants are *fine* the way they are.  They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance.  They are not in need of tweaking.

While the combat system itself can always use a few tweaks and has gotten a lot in recent weeks, half-giants as a race are not at all weak or underpowered.

[Maybe42or54]

The half-giant's mental capabilities in a fight should also be taken into account, they may have a great advantage in the beginning, but they'll tend to do the same stunts over and any seasoned warrior would be able to defend themselves the first part of the fight, then really start to kill them easily as the fight progresses, simply because they will most likely notice that the Hg repeats.

[Armaddict]

Half giants are *fine* the way they are. They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance. They are not in need of tweaking.

Uhm...unusual circumstance?

I want you to go find something that weighs a ton, hold a dagger, and -parry- it.

These are, generally, not unusual circumstances.  These are things that come into play nearly every time a half-giant fights.  As was mentioned...we can use the subdue/hit/knockout, if that's what the staff really wants.  But plenty of ways to make the encounter more real, more realistic, and less of a letdown have been presented.

Yes, half-giants are scary.  But all things considered, -not- that scary.

I'll just point to an experience of mine, where a 5 day desert-elf ranger, without running, or any sort 'wily' tactic, and with only average stats, killed a half-giant that must have had 15 or 20 days playing time.  Which points to the real problem.

HALF-GIANTS are not scary.  HALF-GIANT WARRIORS can be a lot scarier than other warriors.  Except for one enormous deciding factor, which is their ability to have skills.  The HALF-GIANT by himself, is no big deal so long as you aren't subdued.

HALF-GIANTS should not be dependent on their ability to be trained (which is pretty hard, actually) in order to -become- scary.  Yes, they receive racial bonuses.  Yes, they're very strong.  But they are not, by themself, any big deal whatsoever unless they live long enough to kill enough stuff, or unless they're lucky enough to actually be able to spar with another giant.  No one 'teaches' them.

HALF-GIANT WARRIORS are just as dependent on skills as anyone else.  As I stated before...I'd rather see them scary from the beginning, and be unable to get as far along in their combat skills as other races (to reflect on the mentality issue people have been saying balances things out the way it is...which it doesn't, by the way).  Start scary.  Get scarier.  Not scary to someone who knows how to dispose of them, someone with vast experience in combat.

[jhunter]

Lol, good post Armaddict.

I'd just like to add that most of the things mentioned are -not- unusual circumstances at all. They're very common and that's why more than one person has brought them up. A newbie half-giant should be able to flat out -destroy- any other humanoid (without having to resort to subdue/kill). The only ones that should be attempting to take point against a half-giant foe should either be another half-giant, or a very well-trained warrior. As it is...all you have to do is be fast to take them down in melee...they'll almost never hit you and you'll blow right through their defenses doing 10 times the damage they might be able to throughout the fight.
There is definitely something wrong when they're far scarier rp-wise than they are codewise.

[Cale_Knight]

You want half-giants to be muls.

There's a reason one is three karma and one is seven karma.

[Synthesis]

Half-giants should be more dangerous than muls.  They are much, much stronger, and much, much larger.  A half-giant could snatch a mul up and launch him over a small building with one hand.  Yeah, muls are vicious killers when compared to standard humanoids, but against a half-giant of equal experience, they really shouldn't stand a chance.

[Morgenes]

Half-giants are balanced when you look at the whole picture.  They aren't the most agile, and aren't born combat beasts like muls.  When their strength is brought to bear, they are the most devestating creature that a PC can play.  However, a Half Giant can't always bring that stength to bear, and that is reflected in how the half giants are currently set up.

[Many Faces]

Muls have full concept of tactics from day one.  They're intelligent, methodical, and rage filled.  

Half giants do not have this advantage, despite how most people play them.  On my former 40 day half giant I had an absolute riot learning tactics from my commanders, who were extremely patient with explaining the exact same thing week after week until I determined that it would have become more of  a reflex action for the character.

[Armaddict]

You want half-giants to be muls.

No, I don't.  Muls are the best blend of all worlds for a combat based character.  They are decently quick, very strong, and intelligent.  They learn the intricacies of combat.  They are sophisticated when it comes to their ability in combat, and have 'the rage' that makes them an uncontrollable, violent force to be reckoned with.

A half-giant with the ability to learn those intricacies is, indeed, superior to just about anyone.

To use an analogy everyone is familiar with, from the Lord of the Rings:

Half-giant = Cave Troll.  Big, massive, strong, and durable.  They go in, they swing this huge weapon around, and anyone who is careless or in a bad circumstance will be smashed.  Through teamwork, preparation, or superior tactics, they're easily brought down.

Mul = Uruk-hai or however it's spelled.  They are smarter, and a good mixture of all the dominant traits of a warrior.  While not conveyed well in the movie, due to the 'nature of evil' in it (horde mentality), they are capable of superior training, knowledge, and sophistication in combat.  If Aragorn had been a Uruk-hai, he'd have lost the love of his elf woman and Eowen (his charisma, basically), and gained the most fearsome combat abilities ever to be seen.

Half-giants are balanced when you look at the whole picture. They aren't the most agile, and aren't born combat beasts like muls. When their strength is brought to bear, they are the most devestating creature that a PC can play. However, a Half Giant can't always bring that stength to bear, and that is reflected in how the half giants are currently set up.

They aren't the most agile...but they don't need to be.  I don't see them hopping around nimbly bimbly, that's not what I want.  But they aren't as easy to take down in melee as is currently reflected in game.  They don't -have- to dodge that often, realistically.  One hit is a crippling blow or a killing one...a glancing blow hurts like hell.  If they had to dodge often, they would be doing something terribly wrong letting that guy in.  Hence, why -group combat- should be more desireable when going after giants.

Not born combat beasts, I'm in agreeance.  Only special half-giants are 'trained' from youth, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be).  However, the point is that the half-giant with the minimal training that everyone else has should be -much- more fearsome than they are now.  As I've been pushing for...they start scary.  Get scarier.  Then level out...they can't learn as much about the stuff that's harder to remember and based more on reaction time.

When their strength is brought to bear...that's an interesting phrase, because their strength is -always- there.  It shouldn't be so dependent on their skill level...their skill level makes them more deadly, but they're deadly to just about anyone in the first place.  A giant with exceptional strength, fighting one on one, face to face, with a dwarf or human should nearly always win unless that dwarf or human has some pretty damn good experience in combat.  I don't like how a mediocre warrior against a 'new' half-giant still has a very noticeable edge.  It takes lucky hits for the half-giant to win out...he has to beat the parry roll, which with less attacks, is less often than one would think.

What you mean, then, by not always being able to bring that strength to bear...I'm not completely sure.  All I get out of it is that they need the skills to be able to hit and parry away incoming attacks.

And that's where my whole opinion comes in.  I don't think half-giant warriors should be as dependent on skills as other warriors.  While they receive bonuses from the get-go, they also suffer certain penalties that make them relatively easy pickings in the beginning.  In the beginning, they win off of circumstance.  If they're lucky enough to get good circumstances long enough...the skills kick in, and -then- they become the powerhouse.

The way I wanted to see it...

Early half-giant relative to other 'earlies' - Freaking powerhouse

Middle half-giant relative to other 'middles' - Powerhouse still as their skills kick in in all out combat, but more vulnerable than most to multiple attackers and they lose the ability to just stomp on single attackers.  Earlies are stomped on and squished quickly.  Against 'middles', the other middle might come out on top with preparation or finesse, but odds are still heavy on the giant.

End half-giant relative to other 'ends' - The half-giant 'maxxed out' his combat abilities long before the other 'ends'...he's still a challenge due to the combination of their skills in effectiveness plus physical prowess, but the masters of combat are generally capable of surviving well.  Odds are about even....at this point, it would be like the situation seen a lot now.  The half-giant would have trouble holding defenses consistently, and would have trouble breaching defenses consistently...but there are the random 'luck shots' that are devastating.

That's kind of how I see it.  Keep in mind...I haven't played a half-giant for awhile.  But I do see half-giants going down pretty consistently in situations where I see it as kind of laughable.