Half-giants: A bit of tweaking maybe?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Morgenes, if I give you and the staff a point and agree that half-giants shouldn't see the side of any barn during their first 40 days, can I get a point concerning the following?

:arrow: A half-giant kick has a chance to do the flying east/west/north/south thing.
:arrow: You can't parry a half-giant's blows very often; instead, you'll default to dodging most of the time. If you do manange to parry a half-giant, you run the risk of having your weapon knocked away from you.
:arrow: You only have a chance to disarm a half-giant with a two-handed weapon.
:arrow: Half-giants are just a tad easier to hit with ranged weapons, due to their increased size and decreased agility.
:arrow: Blows against a half-giant are metted out as height is appropriate, ie; no halflings hitting one in the head.

[Xygax]

I don't buy the parrying or disarm points, as both require elements of agility and skill, as much as of strength (if not more, especially skill).  I could see making them slightly easier to hit with ranged weapons because of their size, but I think their agility already includes this factor.

I think the kick "effect" might be mildly interesting as a rare occurence, though I also think that "kick" is a misnomer for a strike intended to do damage to your opponent.  I also think tossing your opponent into the next room would yield less damage than, say, smashing your big, fat half-giant foot down into their kneecap.  A martial attack like this shouldn't be geared toward the spectacular effect of kicking a field-goal with your opponent, but instead toward shattering their bones and organs -- this is more effectively done by using the ground as an opposing force.

As to the last suggestion of biasing hit-location against your opponent's size, I actually do like this one.  That said, I also think there -should- be at least some chance of a skilled opponent scoring head and neck strikes -- it shouldn't be entirely possible.  Some people have mentioned rock-trolls from the Lord of the Rings as samples of Half-giant size (I think they're probably 30%-40% larger than our half-giants, if you're going by the movie, but that's okay), and even in those battles, there were instances where rock-trolls were climbed/mounted, or assaulted from higher perches, enabling head/neck-shots.  Our combat system should allow that.  That said, I also think that height should yield at least some bias with respect to where your blows land, and I don't believe that it does now.

I could also see giving half-giants a somewhat thicker skin than they have currently (it's not nothing, but it may not be enough), but that's a tweak which you will never know about, if it does happen (the same can probably be said for the half-giant head-strike thing).

Higher agility?  No.

More devastating power for newbie H-Gs?  Pretty much, no.  I don't think this is a good idea.  I also think it's odd that some of the suggestions in this area seem to want H-Gs to somehow be MORE powerful early and less powerful later (with respect to equivalently experienced opponents?).

Changing the karma requirement for H-Gs and making them beefier?  No, I like where they sit now, and I think they suit the game world well both in terms of coded ability and social position (including fear), something I think we'd lose by making any changes larger than small tweaks to this race.  I also think they fit well in the "ladder" with respect to other class/race options, in terms of challenge and responsibility in roleplay.  This change strikes me as especially unlikely.

Those are my thoughts on the suggestions I've seen thusfar.

-- X

[Dakurus]

Just to remark on the fear part of this discussion, this isn't a problem so much with the current strength/devestation of a HG, as it is a problem in general. As much as we all want to be the best roleplayers we can be, players do have difficulties conveying/living with fear in a game. We're all pretty damn smart as people, and can figure out how to avoid things, as well as how things work. We have a tendency, even when we try not to, to give this advantage to our characters.

It's not just HG's, but magickers, or npcs in the wild (Can I tell you how many times I've seen people stand off a few rooms and shoot at very deadly creatures, trusting that they wont come after them.) and so many other things. If a HG whacks a couple of your characters are you going to fear them more as a player? Or shouldn't you be fearing them all along as a character.

[Larrath]

I'd like to see combat just working a little differently when a half-giant is involved.  This is a wishlist I haven't taken very long to consider but I'm adding it anyway, but I'm aware some of the suggestions could be bad or unbalancing.

* First, I agree about half-giants being disarmed.  No matter how quick you are, prying a weapon out of a huge hand that could crush a skull is damned hard.  I'd like to see disarming half-giants get either a very large penalty or be simply impossible when not done by a mul, a dwarf or another half-giant.
* I'd like to see Subdue changed for giants, so instead of the twinky subdue-hit combo they can use a Crush command to strangle and break the target's body.  It would help because it could be more balanced and fair, and nobody would feel so bad about doing it.
* I don't know if this already happens, but a Kick from a half-giant should deal a lot of damage and a Bash from a half-giant should deal a load of Stun.  A bash from a half-giant is probably comparable to being kicked by a strong horse.
* I'd like to see hits from half-giants cause knockdowns, especially if shield-blocked or parried against.  Parrying against half-giants should be rarer; parry means using your weapon to stop the momentum of the half-giant's strike (virtually impossible) or using your weapon to alter the course of the attack, which basically means you'll have to slam your weapon as hard as you can to move that club out of the way.
* I also think it would be cool if a half-giant could grab people and throw them at each other.
* Half-giants would be unable to use small weapons such as daggers and knives.
* A half-giant could also be knocked down somehow, which would severely limit its ability to fight until they can stand up again.  I'm not talking about bash - an extremely badass warrior (or a group of fighters) could make a half-giant fall, at which point they can just hack it to death.
* I want to see half-giants falling or lying on people and killing them.
* Let half-giants Subdue people and then throw them to an Up room where they can fall down to take damage.  Great fun!
* One-handed subdue?

These are all very undeveloped ideas, but feel free to discuss any.

[Jherlen]

I'll just point to an experience of mine, where a 5 day desert-elf ranger, without running, or any sort 'wily' tactic, and with only average stats, killed a half-giant that must have had 15 or 20 days playing time. Which points to the real problem.

Yeah. Nerf desert elves.

[Maybe42or54]

The way I see it, Half-giants are a magick-induced combo of Giants and Humans. They aren't like Muls, they didn't get the best combo available to them in the Giant/human genes. They -havn't- evolved very much, if at all. The saying that "they are damn strong," doesn't mean they are damn fast. Just watch those Professional Weightlifters run three miles. It would take them a whole lot longer than it would take myself. A more intelligent, faster, trained Warrior should be able to fuck up something stronger, slower, and less trained than them.

The docs go indepth to tell me that they shouldn't be killing machines out of the door. They are just as smart/dumb as any other Pc, the only thing that makes them ignorant IG is.. let me find it...

Wisdom  (Character)  


This attribute is the mental capacity of a character, being made up of both his/her knowledge, intelligence, and ability to learn. On Zalanthas, those who have high wisdom often learn from their mistakes quicker, magickers regenerate faster, and languages are picked up more easily.

Wisdom doesn't take into account a lot of what makes a HG ignorant and a real HG. Such as inflexibility.

I see this in the docs: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

The first factor could be described as "attention resources." Because of their dim wits, half-giants will have to focus very hard on one thing to get it right. When panicked or rushed, this kind of concentration breaks down, and half-giants will tend to make all sorts of blunders.

But in most situations, this kind of single-minded attention will be very obvious. It is easy to picture a half-giant peering at the ground, their brow furrowed as they speaks very slowly, picking out each word carefully to get their thoughts across. Of course, this is a stereotypical example, but it depicts the general idea. The same kind of thing will occur for all variety of tasks - whether hunting or fighting, bargaining or talking, maybe even while drinking a cup of mead.

This kind of forced attention leads to the next aspect of a half-giant's stupidity, which is "inflexibility." Both their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end. In practical situations, being forced to be flexible will cause a half-giant to become uneasy and frustrated, and to make the same sort of blunders he or she would make when panicked. This is a function of their inflexibility and their inability to properly shift attention.

Their inflexibility also begins to describe two other intellectual traits of half-giants: "perseverance" and "lack of subtlety."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, Maybe, that's interesting stuff you've posted. I*'d never realized they were so ... so slow.

I still suggest that strength for a half-giant do more than it does now. Even if they are to be chopped down easily and so forth, that time you get hit should really count for a lot, and maybe have some cool effects, like sending you flying, and things like that.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree to the power. They should be able to do some real damage, but if they have spent twenty years sparring with the same human/mul/dwarf who uses a weapon and a shield, they should really be thrown off and be less powerful when they face that grease lightning little skinny fucker that uses just a shield, or two weapons.

*cough*Fighting styles*cough*

Editted to add.

And I would agree that they were fast, but I ran the numbers a HG has and set it to body proportions, and they aren't very lanky.

Height:   
304.8 cm   120.00 in

Weight target:   
681.0 kg   1500.0 pd

Neck:   
126.0 cm   49.50 in
Biceps:   
118.3 cm   46.50 in
Forearm:   
98.3 cm   38.75 in
Chest:   
328.3 cm   129.25 in
Waist:   
246.4 cm   97.00 in
Hip:   
295.8 cm   116.50 in
Thigh:   
177.5 cm   70.00 in
Calf:   
118.3 cm   46.50 in

[Cyrian20]

I don't ever see that happening. In a game with perma-death, noone wants non-magickers who can "kill two or three seasoned vets with a swipe of his arm". Yeah, from a purely realism point of view perhaps it could be that way, but you can't have a race that makes the character twenty times more powerful than other races of the same guild. From a balance point of view, we just can't have people walking around in the streets who are capable of killing half the city on their own.

That is the point of the karma system, tell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

[Hymwen]

tell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

The seasoned sorc (which requires 8 karma rather than 3 for HGs) is not free to walk around the streets of any city, is not massively powerful straight from char creation, and is extremely rare compared to half-giants.

[jhunter]

tell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

The seasoned sorc (which requires 8 karma rather than 3 for HGs) is not free to walk around the streets of any city, is not massively powerful straight from char creation, and is extremely rare compared to half-giants.

I would venture to say that there are less half-giant pcs on average than magicker pcs by far. Maybe even equal to the number of sorc pcs alone.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Half giants are *fine* the way they are.  They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance.  They are not in need of tweaking.

While the combat system itself can always use a few tweaks and has gotten a lot in recent weeks, half-giants as a race are not at all weak or underpowered.

Naiona actually brings up a good point.  The real problem with the code isn't with half-giants in particular, but lies in the fact that all creatures are treated pretty much the same by the combat code, regardless of size.

I think that the larger creature is, the more combat options related to its size it should have, the more difficult it should be to damage (especially in the head and neck locations), and the more opponents it should require to take it down.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

On topic, I absolutely agree with the hit locations statement. This alone would decrease the ease of taking a half-giant down.

[grog]

Half-giants can breed naturally.  That alone makes them it harder to keep them 'all' under your thumb.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So can dwarves, and yet for a good while, rare was the dwarf seen out of captivity.

Still, you earn a point.

[Larrath]

Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

Muls are smarter than half-giants, faster and smaller.  A mul is much more capable of living by itself.  Muls also don't seem to occur naturally while half-giants reproduce normally.  A half-giant, being large, is also easier to take down with a large group or ranged weapons.
Half-giants are little more than oversized gorillas without the temper issues.
A half-giant will always be a grunt, whereas escaped muls tend to be natural born leaders.

And about labor, half-giants aren't perfect for this task at all.  A half-giant is exactly the sort of a worker to build a house that would collapse at the first earthquake.  Half-giants are terrible problem solvers, become unpredictable under pressure, are stupid and generally try to copy what people are doing around them whether it's wise or not.  Half-giants are good for carrying rocks, but there are also kanks and inixes and magickers that can do that.

Back to the discussion, perhaps the damage location change could be enough to make the half-giants a little better.  They'd be natural dwarf-stompers, which is great.  I think we'd also need weapon reach for this, though - a dwarf with a dagger and a dwarf with a greatspear are two different things.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

Interestingly enough, muls aren't even generally used for something particularly valuable.  The majority of muls are gladiators, and are simply used for entertainment purposes.  So enslavement doesn't appear to correlate to a creature's value to society.

Furthermore, the slave status on half-giants would likely have quite a bit to do with the circumstances under their original creation.  If the sorceror who brought them into being didn't intend for them to be slaves, then enslaving the entire population at a later date would be more difficult, whereas in the case of muls, it is easy to understand why they are all slaves since it is impossible for a mul to occur naturally.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, yeah, but I was really speaking more as a playability issue, rather than as a realistic perspective. Realistically, I completely understand why this has not happened. I really think half-giants are flipping hard to play, but that's prolly just my mindset. I can't play stupid.

[TheGivingTree]

Muls need anger management!   I've always thought that anger issues would sometimes/often lead to improper decision makings if you're a leader. O__o I wonder if a sorceror can enhance a half-giant's intelligence. Just once... I'd like to see a highly intelligent half-giant kick ass.

[Hymwen]

That's what muls are for.

Why does people keep saying this as if anyone is free to make a mul character and just do whatever they want, playing the PC like it's a human?

[TheGivingTree]

Why does people keep saying this as if anyone is free to make a mul character and just do whatever they want, playing the PC like it's a human?

Indeed! O__o I recall reading that they were emotionally unstable... no no... that's an understatement; they're highly emotionally unstable. So unstable that they need to be under constant supervision.  :shock:

[Angela Christine]

Well, yeah, but I was really speaking more as a playability issue, rather than as a realistic perspective. Realistically, I completely understand why this has not happened. I really think half-giants are flipping hard to play, but that's prolly just my mindset. I can't play stupid.

You should learn to play dumb, I hear it can be helpful for dealing with wives.    


Chances are we all know someone noticably slow.  Smart enough that they can dress themselves, feed themselves, and even live alone, but still obviously stupid.  People like that can be a template, a rolemodel for a halfgiant or other generally stupid character.  Halfgiants aren't exactly like stupid people, and besides all stupid people are not the same, but it is a place to start.  People with downs syndrome have great spin doctors and have managed to get the reputation for being nice, but they aren't _all_ nice and they certainly aren't all nice all the time.  Halfgiants have the reputation of being kind and curious, but that isn't all that they are, and they probably aren't kind and curious all the time.  A halfgiant is a whole person.  They should have moods and facets like everyone else.





I think dwarves make better labour slaves than halfgiants.  Sure, a half-giant is stronger than a dwarf, but is he stronger than 4-10 dwarves?  Halfgiants aren't nearly as good in tight spaces as a dwarf.  Halfgiants aren't as good at delicate or detailed work as dwarves.  However, halfgiants are excellent for getting things from the high shelf.  Halfgiants could be good for construction, where their height would be a specific advantage, but for most things purpose-raised dwarves would be better.  

Halfgiant vs. kank is a draw.  They both eat quite a bit.  Kanks probably have a more flexible diet than humanoids.  I have no evidence for that, except that kanks are very common in the south where there isn't much good food to spare.  Kanks are better at just standing around, waiting to be loaded and unload, they don't get bored or distracted.  Halfgiants are more flexible than kanks, you can just tell a halfgiant to take this log over there and then come back and he will probably do it.

[Cenghiz]

I wonder if a sorceror can enhance a half-giant's intelligence. Just once... I'd like to see a highly intelligent half-giant kick ass.

OMG OMG OMG! You gave me a _really_ good focus for a dwarf elementalist.. Damn.. This would be _so_ good to play.

[TheGivingTree]

Half-dwarven giants! We've never seen those before.   :shock: Short, squatty people with shoulders wider then their height!