Half-giants: A bit of tweaking maybe?

[Aldiel]

If they were to be changed, their karma should be significantly upped.

I'm disgusted with at least a quarter of the half-giants I meet, RPwise.

Come on, this isn't very constructive.  It may be that the half-giants you have encountered have been special apps or something because everyone I know with the karma to play a HG is a solid good Rper.

[Tlaloc]

Not to rattle the cage, but this discussion should probably get back on topic, and a bit more under control, or it will be locked. Don't post IC stuff. Don't post actual numbers. Do post constructive critiscm which adds to the discussion.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Up halfgiant dexterity a bit, I say.

I concur.   I've played a lot of half-giants, and having such a low agility gives them too many disadvantages, far more disadvantages in combat and other situations than they really ought to have.  They don't need to be desert elves, but they should be closer to dwarves than they are now.

[jhunter]

Up halfgiant dexterity a bit, I say.

I concur.   I've played a lot of half-giants, and having such a low agility gives them too many disadvantages, far more disadvantages in combat and other situations than they really ought to have.  They don't need to be desert elves, but they should be closer to dwarves than they are now.

I think either this or increasing their natural armor a bit more would fix them up nicely.

[diealot 2l2l]

Two staffmembers have said HGs aren't going to change, and are fine.

Theres really no point to the discussion.  And, as my own personal satirist has indicated, its getting far to much IC info bandied about.  


Yes, I've been guilty of in the past, but I am cutting down on it, to aid newer players.

[jhunter]

Two staffmembers have said HGs aren't going to change, and are fine.

Theres really no point to the discussion.  And, as my own personal satirist has indicated, its getting far to much IC info bandied about.  


Yes, I've been guilty of in the past, but I am cutting down on it, to aid newer players.

This is completely inaccurate. One staffmember gave their opinion that they are fine. Noone from the staff said that -no- change would happen.

This is a discussion, if you have something to add to it fine. But honestly, if all you are going to do is post on it to bitch at other people and act like The Forum Police, take it elsewhere please. Thanks.

[Hot_Dancer]

..I remember when Naatok ran Blackmoon.. and a certain HG we had in the clan..shudder.

No, I'm not much for HG powering-up.

Hot Dancer

[Coat of Arms]

Every HG I've seen has been vastly more powerful than most humans.

[Intrepid]

Actually, without getting into too much detail...

...I very recently saw a half-giant warrior get utterly schooled by a human warrior.

As in, in the past week.  Both were good warriors, but the human was a great warrior.

Both had above average armor.

The outcome was never in doubt.

I'm not advocate a change or lack thereof for half-giants.  I'm just saying what I've
seen in the recent past.

[spawnloser]

HG's are fine.

[diealot 2l2l]

I apologize, I had always thought halaster and naatok were both staff members for some reason.  And, while I understand the idea behind a discussion, if a member of staff (who tend to form a solidarity, so as to keep down confusion) says that HGs are fine, then I sincerely doubt that any changes will be made.  And, those that potentially would be made would be minor.

I am not bitching, and I am not 'acting like the forum police', I am saying that there seems to be a lot of info about the coded 'zomg Hgs can't pwn as well as they should' (which I agree with!) that newbies, and/or people with little Hg experience may not have realized, and -very- little about the actual Rp, and how they should be played etc.  All in all, its giving away the sort of IC info, numbers, stats, weaknesses/strengths to a far more accurate degree than the docs do, which I was just bitched at for in another thread.  

You're mostly just posting because I'm raining on your parade, jhunter.  Hgs are, most likely, not going to be changed.  The thread is devolving into various flames/attacks and way to much IC info.  I suggested cutting it short, instead of just waiting for it to get bad enough for staff to have to start editing/locking.

So, if you're going to sit there and bitch at people for arguing for caution about IC info, and more or less just act like a douche-bag, which you may well be, please take it elsewhere. Thanks.  

I, however, will remain, putting in my opinion (visible earlier in the thread, I believe) and arguing caution, so as to keep the game experience fun and exciting for people that haven't experienced as much as jhunter, the end all be all of this thread and board, if one were to believe his posts.

[jhunter]

So, if you're going to sit there and bitch at people for arguing for caution about IC info, and more or less just act like a douche-bag, which you may well be, please take it elsewhere. Thanks.

There's a blatant FLAME. I thought helpers where supposed to be setting an example for new players. :roll:

The point is you weren't adding anything to the discussion. You were basically telling people on a thread on a discussion board to stop discussing the topic.

Edit: Naatok is not staff....see that flag that says "Legend"? It means former staff.

[Larrath]

Can we please tone this thread down?
This thread is a legitimate discussion for a legitimate topic, and the fact that staff members are involved doesn't mean squat.  Staff members, from what I say, rarely post staff policy outside of Ask the Staff, and when they do it's usually explicit.  This is why most posts from staffers have a disclaimer that says "this post is my opinion and not staff policy".
Staff members are people too, and their opinions are usually not much more valuable than the opinion of a very experienced player.  Sure, a staff member knows exactly how the magick code works while most players have to rely on estimates, but this simply isn't that sort of a discussion.

Half-giants have tremendous strengths and tremendous weaknesses from what I've seen, and I agree that half-giants don't seem to attract as much fear as they should.  This is partially because many (if not most) half-giants are played somewhat poorly and also because a truly experienced fighter, especially one with very high agility, has very little reason to fear a half-giant.  Realistically a fight between a halfling and a half-giant would have the halfling roll around and cut at the half-giant's shins until the giant managed to stomp on its head and kill it.  Codedly, it seems that most halfling NPCs can beat the snot out of a half-giant.

Let's not argue whose opinion is worth more, because it's completely futile.  Let's cut it down on the flames and on the condescending attitude.
And by the way, saying "I'm not going to flame you, you idiot" doesn't fool anyone; it's still a flame.
Flaming hurts the forums, so please don't hurt the forums.  If you do, you will be burned to death as per the Jewish lex talionis of "Measure For Measure".

[Sir Diealot]

nevermind

[Aldiel]

Ok, for all you guys who don't think half-giants rock as much as they should, here's something fun to try.  Go try and <assault with specific skill> one, or better yet, try to <assault with a different specific skill> one.  See what happens.     They are realistic.

[EDIT:  By Xygax, to preserve a surprise or two]

[Xygax]

a truly experienced fighter, especially one with very high agility, has very little reason to fear a half-giant.

As a staff member, I can assure you that this is not a correct assumption.  There are coded combat techniques that very much take size and strength into account in measuring you versus your opponent, and which can instantly give a half-giant the upper hand, without any regard to the skill of their opponent.

Be very glad that you have not had your 40-day warrior extinguished like a torch by an angry newbie half-giant, because it is a very real possibility.

That said, there has been some interesting discussion on this thread, and I agree with the spirit of Larrath's post.  Don't stop debating a subject just because we're telling you we disagree.  You may still find something in your discussion we hadn't though of.  Please do be wary of exposing too much IC information in your posts, however.

-- X

ps - Larrath is also right about the flames.  I realize it's easy to get heated about a subject like this, but please try to be respectful of other poster's opinions and thoughts, even if they disagree strongly with your own.  Flaming/trolling is not tolerated here.

[X-D]

I still think half-giants could use just a tiny tweak here and here and should simply have some abilities that ONLY come from being so damm massive.

BUT.

I also -know- I can take a HG warrior right out of the box and crush ANY warrior of any other race of under 15days play and do it without subdue.

Again, that aside. They need work to help reflect that sheer size better.

If nothing else, change whatever needs to be changed to make it hard or nearly impossible for something 1/2-1/3 the height of a half-giant to be able to strike its head and neck with such EXTREME ease and with so much force.


So, let me get this straight Joe, you lost your half-giant because a being 3 feet tall jumped 10 feet into the air and stabbed through a HG sized silt-horror helm (lets assume at least 3 inches thick) with a 7 inch dagger for 30 points of damage 5 times in a row?

What you were fighting Mighty mouse?

You know whats really silly to see is when some human or dwarf kicks a half-giant in the head.

Thats all I really want to see folks, Half-giants size really showing, and not just in the use of some existing skills either.

[Ghost]

Size and strength come in handy with certain skills that boosts up Halfgiants.  And make them quite a killing machines, I agree to that.

That said, I still think Halfgiants need to be powered up.
Because I do not think their size and strength should be limited to a few collected skills.  The combat as a whole should be in Halfgiant's favor.  Anyone even thinking of killing a halfgiant should be either very crazy or very very skilled, or should catch the halfgiant when sleeping.  Again, I am saying the auto combat should be in halfgiant's favor, not just a few selected skills.

[Armaddict]

I'd rather see half-giants max skills go down (lack of 'finesse'), but see the bonuses they receive from their race go up.

And really, seriously...the double hit to the head of a half-giant from a dwarf really is...ew.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, I'd hate it if Half Giants were upgraded to being even more deadly simply because of size. Sure, they might have (I don't mean this offensively, just as the idea idea) retard rage, but as the Ginka tells me.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

Are All Half-Giants Stupid?
Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

You are telling me, a half-giant can come out of the door thinking like dim-witted human and be able to beat my Byn Warrior that has been killing things professionally for the past 3 ooc months or so? Sure, they might be able to get me if they attacked me with their rage, but if they weren't mad, then I would bet they would die 2 out of 3 times. I'd bet 10 'sids that if you used the proper mind games, most half-giants wouldn't even attack back, unless you got them to that rage state.

This kind of forced attention leads to the next aspect of a half-giant's stupidity, which is "inflexibility." Both their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end. In practical situations, being forced to be flexible will cause a half-giant to become uneasy and frustrated, and to make the same sort of blunders he or she would make when panicked. This is a function of their inflexibility and their inability to properly shift attention.

Their inflexibility also begins to describe two other intellectual traits of half-giants: "perseverance" and "lack of subtlety."

They shouldn't be able to kill a 10-15 day warrior out of the gate, personally, unless they entered this rage state and the perseverance made the half-giant chase and keep attacking them until the 10-15 day warrior was dead tired.

Perseverance is another characteristic which describes inflexibility in problem solving tasks, but in a different light. Just as someone with inflexibility will have difficulty adopting new problem solving approaches, someone who is persevering will continue to do the same thing over and over again - even when it is absurd. The examples of this are endless, and open to varied interpretation. It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns. Or to continue demanding a lower price while bargaining, even though it's absolutely ridiculous; or to continue beating a dead kank.

With this, half-giants probably do atleast one thing in a fight the same way over and over, but the code doesn't care.

Are Half-Giants Easily Tricked?
They are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend.

If I pretend I am going left, then most half giants will probably fall for it, but the code doesn't account for that. Which makes half-giants half-giants just because of the way we RP them.

If they are going to upgraded just because of size, then they should be degraded.. wait for it.. just because of mentality, ignorance, perseverance.

[X-D]

Again, you neglect the sheer size and power of this being.

I find it amazing this is so hard to explain cept MOST people IRL simply have no clue of what kind of speed and power is in 2,000 pounds of bone and muscle. But, if you look around on the net you can find movies REAL films of a 1 ton bear in action, And that is NOTHING like seeing it in real life.

IRL I'll put the best swordsman in the world against a kodiak and bet everything on the bear, because that swordsman is going to become parts and it will happen in about 5 seconds or less.

And thats just a bear, not even as smart as a half-giant, No armor, only natural weapons etc.

Do a bit of research on the large animals of the world in real action, uncensered, you might get just the tiniest inkling of what we are talking about.

And who cares if your going left?
Thats another thing that annoys me, You have to be so far inside that HG's reach to even think about hitting him that there would simply be no hope of dodging, All that the HG has to do is sweep his weapon back and forth 3 feet from the ground.

Thats a good 8-10 foot reach, call it a 3 foot arc on the inside and 15-30 on the outside and moving with all the speed 2k pounds of muscle can muster. Go left indeed.

Again. Check out the swats of a full grown grizzly or silverback or bengal tigar or polar bear...Heh.

[Maybe42or54]

Except Bears are faster than most humans, if not all. Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL. It even says in OUR docs that HGs are slow.



Now imagine that baby being armed and faster than the dim-witted adult and you can see how hard it should be to subdue the little bastard that is, again, faster than you. Few experienced warriors would flee in a straight line when a Hg is chasing them, if they have had experiences with Hgs.

If that baby was caught, it should be damn near impossible to escape short of mind games.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Except Bears are faster than most humans, if not all. Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL. It even says in OUR docs that HGs are slow.

I'd like to argue with you, but you seem to be doing well enough on your own.

[X-D]

And bears are faster then humans...now, read slowly..because they pack around TWO THOUSAND POUNDS of MUSCLE!!!.

And smarter then most dim witted humans..Huh? Lets see, IQ of 60 is what, moron? And yet they can speak and understand a language, even learn to read. Work, put things together take them apart, etc etc.

Alright, find me a bear that can do the same.

I thought not.

And that adult does not want to hurt the baby, come now, thats...well, for lack of better wording, a silly example. If injury was not a factor, the big slow dimwitted adult simply does a flying takle squashing the baby flat, armed or not.

[Maybe42or54]

Find me a dimwitted, or a business, human that can survive in the wild for 20 years. Bears have evolved over a million+ years to be the best at what they do. Half-giants have been fabricated to do what their creater wants. They havn't done very much, if any evolving. Bears, IMO, are a silly example.

No doubt that Hgs could in fact "squish" a human by jumping on them if the half giant was subtle enough to approach, without scaring, the human, before jumping and bellyflopping on the victim. That is just silly, IMO.

If you want to give them bigger advantages, they should have bigger disadvantages.