Archery stam drain..Huh?

[X-D]

First, I have to say that over all, I'm happy about the improvements and push for more realism.

BUT

Are there no real life archers out there?

I hunt with a bow IRL, I've been doing so for a good 20 years now.

I also go out and practice with my 70lbs longbow, my 50lbs recurve and my 100lbs compound at least once a week for the two months before hunting season.

Now, first I suppose its best if I say a little something about archery technique.

When you use a bow, you do not stand there for minutes on end with the bow drawn back. You notch your arrow, you lift bow while drawing back, aim, hold, release.

When I'm practicing, I fire about every 45 seconds. I could go much faster, but hey, that just means its that much sooner I have to walk to the target and recover the arrows.

On a normal practice session I will shoot for an hour or two, firing 45-70 times. And you know what, I've never felt tired or drained.

Oh sure, in the beginning, specialy with the longbow, My draw arm bicept was a little sore and my other arm bruised from the string, but that was years ago and I quickly got past it.

And I am not a zalanthan who makes a living with a bow.

If I was, I assure you I could fire several hundred arrows in an hour or so and not break a sweat.

I also strongly disagree with this stam cost being flat across the board and is unrealistic in every way.

Now, a delf with the correct strength bow can fire MANY more arrows then a dwarf with the correct str bow or even a weak one...WHAT?

Archery is NOT this large physical manuver, you do not throw your body about and it is not sustained activity. It is not draining to even a novice, let alone a an expert or master.

Also, the most draining archery weapon is the what..CROSSBOW...Why then does it not have the drain?

You ever draw a 100-150lbs crossbow? Its hard, thats why they have a place to put your foot to hold it down and why you draw the string with two hands. Load and fire a 150lbs crossbow 10 times as fast as you can, you WILL be tired and sweating.

Well, thats my post.

Summery.

Current stam drains pertaining to archery, bows and crossbows, backwards and extremely unrealistic. BIG thumbs down to this less then thought out addition.

[Delirium]

I don't know how this stamina drain currently works..

But if it isn't implimented, I would like to see an increase in skill mean a decrease in the stamina penalty.

I as well shoot a bow (compound) IRL and the difference between the arrows I could shoot when I first started out to the number I can shoot now that my muscles are more conditioned to it - very marked.

However.. I don't disagree with the stamina penalty.  In fact I like the idea of it.

I just hope it gets less as your skill with the bow gets more.

[Jakahri]

I've hunted deer with compounds for awhile.

Depending on the amount of let-off you have in the bow, you can literally have the arrow nocked all day.

An 80% let-off, for instance, is nothing.

In Zalanthas, recurves are the usual type of bows used in the wilds, I think.  Recurves are generally not too hard to pull back. Also, once you are set and have the arrow set, it's not too difficult to hold in place for a time.

I like Delirium's suggestion of lowering the drain cost in relation to the skill of the shooter. This would make sense, as those who have good form IRL will not tire as fast as an inexperienced archer who is merely jerking the string back.

Give it a week or two. Morg might get some good feedback and tweak accordingly.

[Angela Christine]

Also, the most draining archery weapon is the what..CROSSBOW...Why then does it not have the drain?

You ever draw a 100-150lbs crossbow? Its hard, thats why they have a place to put your foot to hold it down and why you draw the string with two hands. Load and fire a 150lbs crossbow 10 times as fast as you can, you WILL be tired and sweating.

Cross-bows probably should have a stamina drain, but it should kick in when loading the bow, not when firing it.  

That way a wealthy bowman who doesn't want to work up a sweat can pay someone else to load his crossbows for him.  


Angela Christine

[Bebop]

I don't like it either.  It's not very realistic, I guess it's just trying to force people to RP accordingly but all it's going to do is result in people having to rest constantly and with combat clans like the Byn and others, it's going to be a pain during RPTs for these kinds of things.

I can only hope it will lower spam hunting/over hunting.  But it probably won't people will just rest and then go at it again if they are doing such a thing in the first place.

[FightClub]

Oh yeah, now you rangers are kickin the dust when you get picked on.  Yeah I bet you loved in when the warriors were getting it, now you're cryin like babies.  HAHA.

[Bebop]

Oh yeah, now you rangers are kickin the dust when you get picked on.  Yeah I bet you loved in when the warriors were getting it, now you're cryin like babies.  HAHA.

That also in some strange way ^_^ heh, makes a point.  Archery is similiar to a ranger's abilities with animals.  They may not be the best fighters, especially starting out though they have the potential to do well with combat, but archery is a main way of defense and already extremely expensive for commoners, which in itself is a deterent to use arrows.

Now this *sigh*

[Nao]

Oh yeah, now you rangers are kickin the dust when you get picked on.  Yeah I bet you loved in when the warriors were getting it, now you're cryin like babies.  HAHA.

Unlike in the warrior discussion where people weer BRAGGING, I don't see anyone doing that here yet.

Still, I shoot bows in RL, too, and if there is a stamina drain at all (haven't had a chance to try it yet so I can't tell how large it is), it should be considerable less than for doing a skin kick or backing someone - and while I've never seen a ranger twink out on shooting arrows all day agains plenty of twinking warriors (maybe just because arrows are hard to get and expensive).
This won't bother me too much because I'll run out of arrows before I run out of stamina or even get very tired either way.

EDIT cause I can't use my shift key.

[Bebop]

Part of the reason people don't twink this is because arrows damn good amount of money.

[John]

Bebop's right.

I'd say get some links (as reputable as possible) together that support your case for removing ranged combat stamina, and e-mail it to the mud account.

[Hymwen]

Oh yeah, now you rangers are kickin the dust when you get picked on.  Yeah I bet you loved in when the warriors were getting it, now you're cryin like babies.  HAHA.

Yeah, but warriors are only meant to use their special abilities like a few times per fight. Archery is one of the ranger's main assets and something you're supposed to rely completely on in many situations. Imagine if it cost your warrior 5 stamina every round of combat Edit: which would actually be more realistic than the archery stamina drain, but for playability reasons I don't see it getting implemented. Also, I think the archery drain is more of a balance thing than a realism thing.

[Cale_Knight]

Also, I think the archery drain is more of a balance thing than a realism thing.

So was the warrior thing.

The imms said multiple time that warrior skill drain wasn't put in because of realism, it was put in to limit twinking.

I mean, if you want an IC justification for this stamina drain, you could say that the drain doesn't represent the actual act of shooting the bow so much as the virtual manuevering you have to do because the animal is virtually running around like crazy while it's being peppered with arrows.

[Nao]

I think it's a consitency thing - because warriors got it, rangers have to get one, too - I've never seen twinkery there as much of a problem since you usually just don't have as many arrows and if you got them, they were expensive.

And I don't see how they -could- twink out either way, cause it IS realistic to shoot 30 arrows or so.

[Ghost]

And I don't see how they -could- twink out either way, cause it IS realistic to shoot 30 arrows or so.

Yes I would agree to that.  But then the animal does not turn around and start charging to the shooter or run away after the first arrow. I guess that should be the realistic part of making the animal auto charge or autoflee when shot with an arrow, but that is more complicated for coding, so instead the drain was put in.

Nobody is on the criminal side.  The same drain is put for backstab/sap as well, though it is not that much of a realism issue, since why would you get tired for aiming at the heart or the eye of your target?  But it is put for a balance issue, and I find it fine.  Since warriors had it, criminal elements should have it too.

[Hot_Dancer]

...Good ranger pc's disable targets in three shots or less (unless the target has a shield).. which probably comes out to a very minimal total of stamina drain..

The desert elf vs the dwarf scenario: The desert elf can't hop on a kank and leave the area via spending no stamina.

I havn't had any trouble with the updates yet, but I don't spend 20 arrows a target.

Hot Dancer

[Hymwen]

Hymwen wrote:
Also, I think the archery drain is more of a balance thing than a realism thing.

So was the warrior thing.

Yeah, but most of the above posts were discussions about realism

Nobody is on the criminal side. The same drain is put for backstab/sap as well, though it is not that much of a realism issue, since why would you get tired for aiming at the heart or the eye of your target? But it is put for a balance issue, and I find it fine. Since warriors had it, criminal elements should have it too.

You generally only backstab or sap once per fight, and if you're an assassin, you're probably not going to fight that often compared to a ranger who is out hunting or a warrior in the Byn/local city guard/arena champion etc. I personally think that the stamina drain for backstab and sap were put in to appease the angry masses (read: warriors) who felt unfairly treated I don't know how much the drain on backstab/sap is, but if it's something similar to that of archery and warrior skills, I doubt any assassin is going to feel hindered by it the way rangers might when it can take more than 10 shots to bring down a beast.

[Majikal]

Though I'm unaware at the seriousness of the stamina drain  I don't beleive it is an extreme inconvenience. Perhaps if you feel this is detering your experience with fighting with a bow then you should be shooting it alot less. As stated earlier a skilled bowman can disable a target with around 3 good shots. Less if they're an extremely nice archer, I've had two characters die to bow shots and it was a very surprising ammount of damage. Shoot less. As for d-elves vs. dwarfs I can say this.. d-elves can spare the stamina, dwarves can hop on their mount. It all balances out.

[moab]

I have to agree with X-D on this one.

I used to shoot archery quite a bit (and earned a few local awards, go me!) and a stamina drain for archery doesn't really make sense.

[Pale Horse]

I'd have to agree with the common consensus about the RL aspect of archery.  I am a complete novice when it comes to the sport, only having shot a bow(longbow, recurve and compound) about 4 or 5 times in my life.  In all of the said situations, my arms did become tired, but that was after something like 40 or more arrows in just under 15 min(compound bow, people..tough pull).  As it was, I still could have continued for quite some time more, but I, being the utter novice, neglected to bring a brace for my arm, so by the end of half an a hour, my forearm looked and had the feel of raw hamburger :oops:

[Morgenes]

All of the concerns expressed so far have been handled by the stamina drain code.  It's possible to get to the point where the stamina drain is extremely minimal.  

As for crossbows, have you tried one in game?  Try before posting how they 'should' be, please.

[amoeba]

I've tried the archery code. The stamina drain is pretty reasonable, and the seriously cool thing is you can use a bow that normally you couldn't.  I am quite pleased with the change.

[jhunter]

I still think that the stamina drain for some things(at max drain) is about the same amount for the character to walk an entire outdoor room, kinda unrealistic. I think the max drain for these things should be dropped down a bit.

A single, disarm, kick, bash, or whatever = walking an entire outdoor room?

Nah, I don't think so.

[Tamarin]

I went out and tested archery and throw, and I have to say, I like this change.  The drain rates were slightly different, I presume because of my character's skill levels.  Now, hunting -feels- more realistic, because it slowly drains your energy so that you actually have to rest when you come back to the city.

[Morgenes]

I still think that the stamina drain for some things(at max drain) is about the same amount for the character to walk an entire outdoor room, kinda unrealistic. I think the max drain for these things should be dropped down a bit.

A single, disarm, kick, bash, or whatever = walking an entire outdoor room?

Nah, I don't think so.

Don't get me started on realistic and outdoor rooms.  If a room really represents a league in distance, how are you firing arrows up to 9 miles away.  Not to mention being able to clearly make out who a person is from that distance.  Imagine if instead of 'very far', 'far' and 'near' it more accurately said:

> look north
9 miles away you see:
  Your best friend Bob
6 miles away you see:
  Your most hated enemy Jeff
3 miles away you see:
  A funny looking little bird.

There's lots of places where we cut corners for realism.  The code that calculates how much stamina is lost per room of movement isn't the most complicated code in the world.  

We look at trying to balance things and making them fun in both use and seeing how your character improves over time.  That's why stamina drain is where it's at.

[Tamarin]

Morg, why don't we expand everyone's endurance by 50%, then?

Then, keep combat stamina penalties as they currently are (ie the same number), but increase room movement penalty (ie the same percentage relative to max stamina).

This would balance it better between movement and combat penalties.