Archery stam drain..Huh?

[Morgenes]

Morg, why don't we expand everyone's endurance by 50%, then?

Then, keep combat stamina penalties as they currently are (ie the same number), but increase room movement penalty (ie the same percentage relative to max stamina).

This would balance it better between movement and combat penalties.

Because we think it's balanced as is.

[Tamarin]

Okee doke.  Just checking.

[ibusoe]

There seems to be a lot of debate back and forth about wether the stamina drain needs to be adjusted up or down.

I haven't tested it much, so I'm going to stay out of the debate.

I must say that, overall, I'm glad to see --SOME-- amount of stamina drain associated with combat activities.

Here's why -- In the past it was really possible for me to go out and hunt down about five or six dangerous monsters in the course of a game day.  I questioned whether it was realistic for me to do this, and was forced to use a lot of judgement and discretion on how many monsters to kill, without much guidance from the game code.  

After extensive modifications to both animal behavior and the combat skills, now I can pretty much only get about two animals, even on a good day.  

I don't mind trying for three, because if I get it, I've earned it.

The penalties from things like kick are small, but they add up if I try to pwn more than two monsters in a day.  Likewise, this serves as kind of a check + balance system on my PK attempts....I know that I shouldn't feel guilty throwing a few kicks at someone as long as I have the stamina to do so.

I hope that the coders and testers (players?) are able to agree on what the exact levels of stamina drain should be, but they help my playability alot.

[EvilRoeSlade]

At first I supported the stamina drain, but now I think that it's too small to have any real impact on non desert elves.

I think that all stamina drains should be removed and replaced with a timer (except archery), so that if you try to disarm someone then you get a message saying "The maneuver has become too obvious, you must wait" if you try to disarm anyone again within the next 30 seconds.

[Morgenes]

At first I supported the stamina drain, but now I think that it's too small to have any real impact on non desert elves.

We still aren't done with the stamina drain.  I'd wait before declaring it to be too small.

[Natron]

After having used the MUD to share a grievance on this subject and spent some time talking about it with people who have more experience than me, I must side with those who say that warriors/rangers should start off with a stamina penalty for kick/bash/disarm and shoot, but that the drain should go down as skills increase.

A one day warrior or ranger would probably get tired pretty easily from doing warrior/ranger stuff.  A five day ranger or warrior would get less tired.  A twenty or thirty day warrior or ranger could fight and kill all day and be alright, especially when people in Zalanthas are physically tougher than people in RL.  

Also, if someone has been twinking their skills for 20 days (480 hours of play time,) an IMM along the way should have noticed and that person should have been warned, and after being warned, punished for being a twink.

A second popular idea I've heard, though I don't necessarily agree with it, is that all fighting should have a stamina penalty so that warriors aren't punished for what makes the guild special.

So mark one vote for a stamina drain that starts big and lessens over time.

-Natron

[Tamarin]

How do you know it doesn't already work this way?

[Natron]

I don't, but if it doesn't work this way I think it should.  

-Natron

[Bakha]

I don't, but if it doesn't work this way I think it should.  

-Natron

Here, Morgenes seems to say that it does work that way:

All of the concerns expressed so far have been handled by the stamina drain code.  It's possible to get to the point where the stamina drain is extremely minimal.  

[Bebop]

I would just like to remark that I thought it was funny that everyone supported this and suggested this until it happened for the sake of realism and this and that.  And now that it's been proven it's not realistic, and newb rangers are going to get nerfed having to struggle to buy arrows and then get exhausted shooting them:  everyone else is saying oh well it's not for realism it's for this and that.

So yay, we are basically doing this for what reason?  Just to even it out between warriors and rangers, even though the skills are pretty much nothing akin?  Zalanthas:  all people created equal now?  This just doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Bakha]

So yay, we are basically doing this for what reason?  Just to even it out between warriors and rangers, even though the skills are pretty much nothing akin?  Zalanthas:  all people created equal now?  This just doesn't make sense to me at all.

All I'll say is that these changes, as they get tweaked and added to, are going to make combat much much more complex and full featured. I don't think that realistic is the appropriate word, as you've indicated. I do think that it's going to add coded backing to a lot of things that, in the past, were not supported by the code. As the changes continue to come down the pipes and as people actually explore the code (instead of having kneejerk reactions to it), I think people will begin to appreciate the method behind the apparent madness.

[amoeba]

So yay, we are basically doing this for what reason?  Just to even it out between warriors and rangers, even though the skills are pretty much nothing akin?  Zalanthas:  all people created equal now?  This just doesn't make sense to me at all.

My take on it. Strictly my take.

Shooting an arrow is very easy. Draw your bow, pull an arrow from the quiver, shoot the prey. Easy, in fact so easy, most clients can make shooting a quiver full of arrows as effective as having a machine gun. Boom.  The other downside, is that if a bow was overpowered for you, you couldn't use it period. It was dead wood.

We could roll out the RP mantra and say, Roleplay it. Don't let the twinks make it hard for me. A reasonable argument. Yet this is not a MUSH. We use code to create a consistently to the world, to create real consequences to your actions.  An argument could be made that code should back up the consequences of using a bow.  Prior to this, there were none, zero. You could shoot arrow after arrow, with the only problem being some arrows got consumed in the process.

Now what are reasonable ways to code in consequences?   You could code in a delay.  But this leads to other problems. There are times you want to rapid fire a few shots off. Say you were a raider, and trying to take someone down.  The delay approach would mean you would have to be a one shot wonder.  

The approach of your stamina being hit a little solves a number of problems. It allows someone to rapid fire some shots if they so desire, at the cost of some of their stamina points.  The way it was coded as well means you can use bows you normally could not use.  You could argue that being tired from shooting a bow, should not affect your ability to walk someplace. Perfectly reasonable argument, yet because we do not have a separate stamina for other actions taken other than movement. It gets lumped in.  Perhaps a separate stamina for 'other' actions, (i.e. kicking, archery, etc.) could be developed,but at this point we do not have it, so fatigue (imho a better word than stamina) gets affected.

On a more practical note, have you tried the code, or are you just guessing at the effects?  I've tried it. I used a bow too heavy for me and was comfortable with the hit to my stamina. I did not use the archery skill at all prior to doing this with this character, so in terms of archery, I was a newb ranger.  If you have ideas how to make the code better reflect the consequences of using a bow, by all means suggest them.  Provide realistic feedback to the IMMs as you use the code, but bandying about statements like "newb rangers are going to get nerfed" is quite frankly unfounded and pure conjecture

[Maybe42or54]

Now, a delf with the correct strength bow can fire MANY more arrows then a dwarf with the correct str bow or even a weak one...WHAT?

How so? A dwarf will ride in on his kank and 120 Stamina or whatever, and be using less stamina when firing a weaker bow.
Whereas a D-elf will have to run, shoot, run, shoot, run, shoot. This is another disadvantage to Warrior D-elves, but hey, don't say it is worse to a mounted rider than can be dead tired and still ride half way across the known world before he needs to rest, and that is only because his kank needs the rest.

Hell, mounted Rangers can still ride all day long and shoot bows all day long with 120 stamina or so.

Archery is NOT this large physical manuver, you do not throw your body about and it is not sustained activity. It is not draining to even a novice, let alone a an expert or master.

Disarming someone takes less real effort than shooting a bow a hundred times or so, but there is drain for that.

If I didn't respond to other parts of your post, is because I either had no opinion, I have no idea, or you are right on.

[Angela Christine]

Though I'm unaware at the seriousness of the stamina drain  I don't beleive it is an extreme inconvenience. Perhaps if you feel this is detering your experience with fighting with a bow then you should be shooting it alot less. As stated earlier a skilled bowman can disable a target with around 3 good shots.

The problem is that even weak creatures can take a silly amount of bow hits.  I think they may have an unholy regen rate.

A while back, a couple years at least, my newbie Tuluk archer went out hunting vestric.  It took her 10-12 HITS with an arrow to kill the vestric, that doesn't count the arrows that missed.  The vestric, a small feathered rodent, was still walking around with 10+ arrows sticking out of it.  It appeared that the vestric simply regenerated faster than I was firing.

With a southern archer it once took an INFINTE amount of arrows to kill a jozhal.  I had a couple quivers of arrows, so I had somewhere around 20-30 arrows in total.  I fired all of my arrows at the jozhal.  I walked into the room, the jozhal ran away, and I picked up all the arrows that had missed the jozhal.  Then I fired them all toward the jozhal, there were fewer since the first time some of the arrows had hit and stuck to the jozhal.  Again I moved into the room and picked up my missed arrows as the jozhal fled, then fired them.  Still the jozhal was not dead.  I moved into the jozhal's room, and picked up the few remaining arrows.  Then I got on my kank and chased the jozhal around until it was too tired to run away.  Since we were finally in the same room I was able to assess it, and it wasn't even badly hurt, so I killed it with my melee weapons -- I had to, it was the only way to get some of my arrows back.   :roll:   Again it appeared that the creature was able to regenerate faster than my archer was able to shoot.

Obviously it isn't always as bad as that, but attempting to become a bow hunter is a slow road.  It seems much less silly to attempt to shoot game from a distance than to walk up to the animals and poke 'em with a sword, but it turns out that sword hunting is both easier and much cheaper than bow hunting.  A newbie can probably take down small game if he manages to get in 10 pricks with his daggers, but 10 pricks with his arrows often doesn't do the trick.  


Using stamina to limit unrealistic PC activities is good.  But perhaps since PCs are more limited now, the regen rates of NPCs should be reevaluated.  They seem to regenerate very quickly while just standing around, to the point that it is difficult for PCs to compete.  I'm not sure that even with a tent a PC can come close to an NPC's regen rate.


Angela Christine

[jcarter]

I just had some experience with this earlier.

Everyone is complaining over absolutely, positively nothing. The stamina drain is not that bad, and I had fired over 10 arrows at one point. If stamina is really such a big issue with you, then start wearing extra gear to give you more mv points.

[Manhattan]

Everyone is complaining over absolutely, positively nothing. The stamina drain is not that bad, and I had fired over 10 arrows at one point. If stamina is really such a big issue with you, then start wearing extra gear to give you more mv points.

you know what this means?
this means that morgenes' attempt to hinder twinking has failed.

[jmordetsky]

I think AC's post is probably the most noteworthy of this thread.

I don't mind the stam drain at all, but I would like to see some evening done to the archery skill in general.

[jcarter]

Everyone is complaining over absolutely, positively nothing. The stamina drain is not that bad, and I had fired over 10 arrows at one point. If stamina is really such a big issue with you, then start wearing extra gear to give you more mv points.

you know what this means?
this means that morgenes' attempt to hinder twinking has failed.

Why don't you post us a thread with the proper guidelines on how to use archery?

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Okay, before I add my opinion, which isn't worth that much.. I haven't had the opportunity to try out any of the new stam drain coding, for warrior or ranger types. So I haven't formed an opinion on that. Yet.

My opinion, or.. observation is more along the lines of peoples attitudes toward the changes. Not everybody who'se posted has been hostile or rude of course, and I won't point fingers. But some people are getting downright biligerant about the new changes. We push the IMMs to impliment our ideas, do this, that and tie our shoes. And lately, they've really done it. They have new codes pouring out their ears, in their sleep. But if they put in an idea that isn't something the majority of the players were screaming for, people get their hackles up and start snarling. I'm sure the IMMs have their reasons for what they do, and most of the time we're privy to that information. It's not as if they don't try to make the game even more enjoyable for us. So, y'know. Lay off a bit.   :roll:  Express your opinion without implying they're tossing stuff in because they had free time when they were drunk off their asses (or ate too many wino brainz), not because it's useful to the game in some way. :roll:

So yeah. I'm done about this, until I have any actual experience with the new code.

[Bebop]

Okay, before I add my opinion, which isn't worth that much.. I haven't had the opportunity to try out any of the new stam drain coding, for warrior or ranger types. So I haven't formed an opinion on that. Yet.

My opinion, or.. observation is more along the lines of peoples attitudes toward the changes. Not everybody who'se posted has been hostile or rude of course, and I won't point fingers. But some people are getting downright biligerant about the new changes. We push the IMMs to impliment our ideas, do this, that and tie our shoes. And lately, they've really done it. They have new codes pouring out their ears, in their sleep. But if they put in an idea that isn't something the majority of the players were screaming for, people get their hackles up and start snarling. I'm sure the IMMs have their reasons for what they do, and most of the time we're privy to that information. It's not as if they don't try to make the game even more enjoyable for us. So, y'know. Lay off a bit.   :roll:  Express your opinion without implying they're tossing stuff in because they had free time when they were drunk off their asses (or ate too many wino brainz), not because it's useful to the game in some way. :roll:

So yeah. I'm done about this, until I have any actual experience with the new code.

Dude, I haven't seen anyone post anything like that people are just saying what they feel.

The point is, if the change isn't good, or isn't liked, well it's a forum.

forum

n 1: a public meeting or assembly for open discussion 2: a public facility to meet for open discussion.

This is a place for people to express their opinions and talk about their ideals.  If the players, the people that play the game, the people these changes are going to effect have issues with changes, then they have the right to express their opinions.  Whether the IMMs listen to them or not is their decision.  People have expressed on multiple occasions their appriecation and just because a few changes that are implemented aren't liked by everyone doesn't take away the fact that I and the majority of people here appriecate the IMMs fully even if all of our opinions don't coincide.  So stop taking away from this thread by making it a pity party.

Just because there are alot of changes doesn't mean all of them are going to be awesome/good changes or that everyone is going to like them.  And not everyone has to.  This is a place people should be able to voice their opinions.  Even if people don't like the IMMs this isn't a personal attack against them.

IMMS if you don't know it.  I <3 you, and so do many of the players.  (Even if I don't agree with some of your decision it doesn't mean I don't appriecate the work behind them.)

----

As far as AC's post, I think she's dead on and that was the point I was trying to also make about if stamina was added to combat.  I think these changes are an easier step then changing combat, just adding on stamina penalty (it's going to be alot easier then reworking skills entirely).  But I still think these changes are a step ahead on realism as far as skills go.  Sometimes you HAVE to fire your bow alot, sometimes you just can not kill some one or something in less then one quiver of arrows.  Skills have to be built up, and arrows are already very expensive.  This is taking a huge step of attempted realism or control, way ahead of the realism of the actual skill itself.  Now personally I don't think there was anything wrong with archery before.  I liked how it worked, and yeah, the reason you have to shoot things alot at first or just sometimes give up is because it's a GAME it's not real and so skills have to be given time before you can reach that point of killing things in two/three hits.  I don't see any need for this stamina penalty, and the excuse of "realism" has already been disproved.  People don't shoot alot because they're twinking, they shoot alot because it's a game and sometimes neccessary.

To kind of sum it up:  I don't think any changes need to be made.  I understand that it is a game, and sometimes you are going to have to fight a skeet for ten minutes RL time because of the code.  I understand it's a game and sometimes even after you've shot ten arrows you're going to have to give up because codedly you suck, and it's a game and you're going to have to take time to get better.  It's a GAME and taking away stamina doesn't make it anymore "real" it just looks like some kind of leash/control for players to not be able to use their freaking skills all of the sudden.  I have never seen any major problems with a playerbase as a whole twinking or over using them, and now the skills quiet dier to each guild, backstab/warrior combat skills and a ranger's archery are being forced into quantities by stamina penalty.  What's next stamina drain for merchants?  Yes! I think it would be very hard work tanning and scraping hides and working over an oven to boil soap!  Let's force everyone to rest because it's more fair that way.  Soon we can force people to lose stun as they go along so they are forced to sleep instead of play.  I'm not trying to be scarcastic, I'm just trying to make a point.

To me this takes away from the game, I want to be the one in control of my RP not fighting someone thinking about numbers.  Or having to rest constantly because heaven forbid I'm actually using my skills.

[X-D]

My problem at times is I miss posts, probly do to sheer volume.

Missed Morgs first post on archery stamina drain and that it includes loading crossbows. Sorry Morg. So, strike my crossbow comments.


Also, Though I do have a char with archery capabilities, I have yet to use them since the stam drain code went in and very little before that.

And if the stam drain for shooting is 50 points or one, I don't care, thats not the point for me at all but the fact it is there at all. I would not like it even if it cost my char 1 stam for every 10 arrows fired.

Realism aside.

Archery, unlike ALL the other skills with stam drain already has self limiting factors. First, like all the skills, there is a timer to advancement.
Second, arrows are Expensive to a newbie char and a drain on even experianced PC's who might have good pay. Third, unlike any of the other skills including throw, Arrows get destroyed, and do so at a VERY high rate. So, yet another hit to that skill...joy.

So you can use heavier bows now...really, big deal. Actually, I don't like it.
You have always been able to use heavier bows, it just cost you money and a bit preperation. Now, it does not...blah. Rather unrealistic again IMO.
IRL if a bow is too strong for me to pull then its too strong for me to pull, period. My wife cannot pull any of my bows long enough to shoot them, She can't even get the compound bow past the let off.

It has been mentioned that there might be a method to the apparent madness....shrug, never assumed there was not.

And I only hope it all comes together in the end because right now it all looks rather pointless. Specialy since it is obviouse that it is not being done to enhance realism and only a little to slow twinking on some things.

Bebop posted ahead of me dammit, but I feel the same so I'm putting this here to be at the top of this page.

To kind of sum it up: I don't think any changes need to be made. I understand that it is a game, and sometimes you are going to have to fight a skeet for ten minutes RL time because of the code. I understand it's a game and sometimes even after you've shot ten arrows you're going to have to give up because codedly you suck, and it's a game and you're going to have to take time to get better. It's a GAME and taking away stamina doesn't make it anymore "real" it just looks like some kind of leash/control for players to not be able to use their freaking skills all of the sudden. I have never seen any major problems with a playerbase as a whole twinking or over using them, and now the skills quiet dier to each guild, backstab/warrior combat skills and a ranger's archery are being forced into quantities by stamina penalty. What's next stamina drain for merchants? Yes! I think it would be very hard work tanning and scraping hides and working over an oven to boil soap! Let's force everyone to rest because it's more fair that way. Soon we can force people to lose stun as they go along so they are forced to sleep instead of play. I'm not trying to be scarcastic, I'm just trying to make a point.

To me this takes away from the game, I want to be the one in control of my RP not fighting someone thinking about numbers. Or having to rest constantly because heaven forbid I'm actually using my skills.

Ditto.

[Nao]

Everyone is complaining over absolutely, positively nothing. The stamina drain is not that bad, and I had fired over 10 arrows at one point. If stamina is really such a big issue with you, then start wearing extra gear to give you more mv points.

you know what this means?
this means that morgenes' attempt to hinder twinking has failed.

So you're saying that shooting 10 arrows at a target is twinkish? *grin*

Besides, the archery drain wasn't put in because of twinkery, as far as I know.

[FightClub]

*cheers for rangers getting beat down*

I'm just glad that someone, finally put rangers a step back.  And yeah this hurts delves more than anyone, just like the melee code hurt delves more than anyone.  And anyone that's played a delf before knows that pretty much the only sudden death move is to run out of stamina.

Heck it's how mine died.

As far as supporting it, yeah, not like we -technically- have any say in it.  Sure we push for this or that, they may listen, but heck, it's their mud they'll make us teletubbies if they want and we really can't say shit.

That and well, this mud is free, we've no invested stock in here,  it's a privlidge to play here, and well we're not knocking warriors in this thread, so hah, I'm not gonna complain.

Lol maybe we should incorporate FOCUS points. Rofl.  you have to gain focus through combat to make attacks raw! Just like a good old hack n' slash.

[marko]

I am in agreement with InsertCleverNameHere about the way people are posting.  A lot of these posts contain belligerent attitudes that are disrespectful and are being written by people who haven't experienced the code changes.

There are a lot of knee-jerk reactions with people ranting before knowing exactly what's happening.  I could pull up example after example but there is no point.

Please, when discussing code changes, post informed opinions and not guesswork.  Even then, it is probably better to log everything, take a look at the logs after a bit of time, and then submit some thoughts directly to the coders based on how things went down in the logs.  

The coders have clearly stated that these changes are being tweaked and altered depending on the experiences of the PCs and how it affects the game.  They aren't being tweaked by how loud people complain without having fully experienced them.  If you want to have an impact on how the code is finalized then post informed opinions without rancour.

What is exciting about all these changes is that the combat code is being worked on.  That means a lot of possibilities may be far (months or years) on the horizon (stuff like stances, fighting styles, changes to mounted combat, etc etc).  Why?  Because there will be at least one coder who is intimate with how the code is working.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To be honest, although I agree that twinking might have been a factor in the past, I don't think all the changes to combat and its facats are because of twinking any more. I think, and hope, that realism is much more of a goal these days. And I hope, and firmly believe that, after a rocky period, it will be refined to the point that it will be called a masterpeice.

As a novice coder, I'll tell you now that changing everything out at once is a really, really bad idea. The way that Morgenes is going about it, in slow, testing-status steps, is the right way to go. So things might be unbalanced for a while. Who cares? The end result will be a better combat simulation. And I really think that this is the point of a lot of this changing this and that, no matter what guise it wears for now. A funner, better, more realistic, more stratagic combat code.

I, for one, am elated.