Archery stam drain..Huh?

[John]

Perhaps the statement, "Where all classes are equally powerful." should be changed to, "Where all combat specialized classes are equally powerful." That would be much more logical.

But there's only one class specialized in combat. Warriors. They'll always be more powerful then Rangers and Assassins (I'm leaving magickers out of it). Assassins specialize in killing people. Not in combat. An assassin who lets himself get into a fight is a poor assassin. Rangers specialize in.. well the closest thing I can say is hunting. But they don't really specialize in anything except staying alive out in the desert.

So yeah. There's only one combat specialized class. Assassins should stay out of combat (although can in a pinch fight) and rangers survive in the desert by carefully picking their battles, using the terrain to their advantage and using their other skills to avoid prolonged combat (perhaps instead making quick strikes).

[TheGivingTree]

Oh! That is true indeedy. Very ironic indeed. Well... for me that is. O.o Warriors being the only combat specialized class, but we shall see the results of this new implementation on the rangers sooner or later. If it becomes too unfavorable and chaotic. I'm sure the voice of the populace shall win-out in the end.

But man, what gratification! To be a profession of lesser combat-specifcations to win against a warrior; whether the weapon be poisonous or not. ^.^

Perhaps someone would disagree with the notion that warriors are the only class to be combat-specialized? O.o -pokie-

[Nao]

A BOW is a BOW - no matter what you use.

MAny of the bows in zalanthas are made of wood, like todays. Even if there are bows from other amterials, their pull has a similar range by code, so they've probably got a design that makes those horn or bone bows work like wooden bows.

The simplest design to make a bow is a selfbow. Once you've chosen the right wood and let it dry for months most of the work can be done in about a weekend (probably less when you're practiced). You cut a straight piece of wood from half a trunk, strip off the bark and maybe cut a few layers of wood off the back and carve a hande, from then on you only work the inside of the bow - flatten out the arms and put in a few notches to keep the string, simple as that. You can't build a bow more primitive than this, and this is what I imagine a zalanthan wooden bow to look like unless the description says otherwise. The difficult part of this is balancing the whole bow so it bends equally everywhere you want it to bend and has a decent accuracy.

It might be harder to hit something with a bow like that if it wasn't made at a very good quality, but it isn't tougher to pull or anything - it's pretty hard to even get a bow like that to have a decent pull.

So there's no reason why zalanthas would have monster-bows that make you completely exhausted from shooting - I buy the explanation that you have to run after an animal and that costs stamina, but saying that it must be something with the bow being incredibly hard to work is silly - the selfbow I've used is MORE easy to pull than those nice and modern recurves and compound bows that have fiberglass backings and all that.

[Tlaloc]

So yeah. There's only one combat specialized class. Assassins should stay out of combat (although can in a pinch fight) and rangers survive in the desert by carefully picking their battles, using the terrain to their advantage and using their other skills to avoid prolonged combat (perhaps instead making quick strikes).

I would dissagree with the notion that Assassins should stay out of a fight. Assassins, like other combat characters, are built to get into fights. However, like you mentioned with Rangers, they are more specialized and typically have to use their skills, wit, and terrain to their own advantages, to make up for the lack of overall combat robustness.

[Assassinish Kank]

But there's only one class specialized in combat. Warriors. They'll always be more powerful then Rangers and Assassins (I'm leaving magickers out of it).

I would dissagree with the notion that Assassins should stay out of a fight. Assassins, like other combat characters, are built to get into fights. However, like you mentioned with Rangers, they are more specialized and typically have to use their skills, wit, and terrain to their own advantages, to make up for the lack of overall combat robustness.

To the mantra, "skills matter more than stats," let me add another: skills matter more than guild.  An assassin who takes combat training seriously is perfectly capable of slugging it out toe-to-toe with a less-experienced warrior.

[Aldiel]

Adiel, Shooting at an animal that many times IS rediculous, go back and read Bebops post. It is a Game, and that is the way this Game works.

That's kind of what I'm saying X-D.  It is a game, that's why I think they're adding the stamina drain.  I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.   Are you agreeing with me that shooting an animal 20+ times is a bit ridiculous, or are you saying that it's ridiculous but it the way the game works.  I agree it's how the game works, and that's why I think adding the stamina drain might help to make it more realistic while working within the frameworks of the code.

[X-D]

Not agreeing at all.

It is unrealistic to begin with to have to shoot at something so many times, but adding another unrealistic thing to it simply makes it what, I suppose Doubly unrealistic.

I could live with the shooting 20 times to kill it, because that is the way the game worked, even if it was unrealistic. But to turn around and remove more of what little realism there was, whats up with that? And I see no way at all that it adds to play. Things that don't ride get the short end of the stick and things that do, well, it simply is going to go unnoticed for them.

Then add in that archery is already a hard skill to get better at.

#1 Arrows are expensive, so, PC's that start practicing archery are normaly already established and pretty set in the coin area. The stam drain is meaningless to them since they are most likley VERY good riders and better then average in melee.

#2 Archery has to have reasonable weather to practice, and it is the ONLY skill that needs that. if the wind is too high, well, so much for shooting anything.

Archery was already self limiting in the twink department.

Then lets add in the also unrealistic ability to now draw a bow that is too strong for you with simply a bit more effort...HUH?

Hey Joe, go lift that car, alright, Its too heavy boss! Try harder, Alright. Hey, I lifted it...bah.

And archery is already a stick and move deal when in PVP, you only get 1-2 shots before you have to ride away or in chase anyway, so again, stam drain is doing nothing for strategy there.

Oh, and lets not forget that archery damage has already been recently nerfed anyway, So, what #3 or #4 on limiting the usefulness of the skill?

[amoeba]

Then lets add in the also unrealistic ability to now draw a bow that is too strong for you with simply a bit more effort...HUH?

Hey Joe, go lift that car, alright, Its too heavy boss! Try harder, Alright. Hey, I lifted it...bah.

The analogy is weak.  A bow is not a boulder to lift, nor should it be an on/off switch.  I always was a bit irked by that code.  If a bow is too strong for you, it means you can not draw the string back to it's optimal position, meaning the bow is less effective for you.  How far from optimal is your pull? Depends, are you 90% to using a heavy bow or 10%? One can barely pull the string back, while another can almost get there.  Certianly more "realistic" than light, medium, heavy.  This way the coders could take into account this variability if they so desired.

And archery is already a stick and move deal when in PVP, you only get 1-2 shots before you have to ride away or in chase anyway, so again, stam drain is doing nothing for strategy there.

You have a point there, however probably not quite what you intended.  The stamina drain is so minimal in relation to everything, that someone playing it the way they should, would barely notice the effect.  However someone who stood 2 squares away from a duskhorn, and used it as a stationary practice dummy, thowing volley after volley of arrows at the critter, knowing oocly it won't move at all in response, is the one going to get "nerfed".  

It would seem that anything getting peppered continuously by painful sticks in the side would either try to run away from the threat, or move to eliminate it.  If the archery stamina hit was rolled back, I would -strongly- like to see this implemented.

Oh, and lets not forget that archery damage has already been recently nerfed anyway, So, what #3 or #4 on limiting the usefulness of the skill?

It did? Damn I missed the memo on this one.  

In all seriousness, and not discounting anyone's feelings on the "realism" of the change. This is a game in a fantasy setting.  Compromises with realism are made all the time.  We can keep raw meat in 140% heat in our packs for weeks on end without nary an ill effect from it.  Sometimes suspension of belief is essental.

[jcarter]

How many people in this thread have actually used archery since the changes have gone into place and really been effected by it?

[Tamarin]

I've used it, and it's fine.  Honestly.  I really like the change of feel that it has forced into archery/throw hunting.

[FightClub]

Listen, Fight Club. Not to be harsh, or anything, but you're simply wrong.

First of all, HGs are not the only race to use greatswords.

Secondly, there is no real reason that the concepts of bows here and in Zalanthas should be different. A bow is a bow is a bow. No matter the pulleys on today's more popular bows, there are still bows that are made of simple wood and cord. Tribals in Africa and other places still use these simple bows, and I highly doubt that the creators and current implementors of Armageddon see any difference.

Thirdly, the Staff has stated more than once that the changes in the game were not only to curb twinking, but also to improve realism. While creating a huge drain for normal bows might not be the answer, and will probably get taken out because of it, the drain for using a crossbow is realistic, if a tad excessive, and all of these things will be nerfed and amped as the staff spends time looking into it.

Finally, your tone is really bad. Honey catchs more flies than vinegar, and you're serving some pretty bad vinegar. It might be a good idea to calm down a little. You border on flamery.

#1Alright let me put it this way, pick and dunk.  Only very-high strength characters can use a greatsword.  A five pound sword is not hard to swing.  Even if you can't hurl boulders fifty yards.  That means greatswords are considerably heavier on zalanthas, or that the weight given is wrong.  That was my point.  And if the sword is heavier on zalanthas, then other materials might be more unwieldy, hard to use as well.  I mean I've seen bows made out of horns, and antlers, and strung with grass -- We're working with entirely different things.  Try to string a bow with grass here it will break.  So no a bow is not a bow is not a bow.

#2 Alright?

#3 Wasn't angry, I was just trying to point out how long that thread is going, and how it's circled over 20 times with the same views, comments, whatever.  I believe that everything that could be said is said, and has been said twenty times now.  If I meant a derogatory tone you'd know it, and it wasn't.  So politely, get off my case.

[Majikal]

It's totally okay, hasn't really bothered me at all really. The stamina loss isn't that great of a number really.

[X-D]

The analogy is weak. A bow is not a boulder to lift, nor should it be an on/off switch. I always was a bit irked by that code. If a bow is too strong for you, it means you can not draw the string back to it's optimal position, meaning the bow is less effective for you. How far from optimal is your pull? Depends, are you 90% to using a heavy bow or 10%? One can barely pull the string back, while another can almost get there. Certianly more "realistic" than light, medium, heavy. This way the coders could take into account this variability if they so desired.

Your not into archery are you?

Less effective is not the correct term in the least.

Cept for todays compound bows, which have a letoff, Bows get harder the farther you pull them back, and the scale in which they do is not geometric.

But, lets see if I can explain this.

Alright, if I pick up a bow, any bow, say a 10 pound childs bow that I can pull easily.

I hold the bow in my left hand, I knock the arrow with my right and curl the first joints of my first 3 fingers around the string with my index above the arrow and the other two below, none of my fingers touching the arrow.
I then smoothly lift the bow with my left hand while pulling back with my right. When the arrow is level with my eyes my right hand thumb knuckle will be even with my temple. I then  sight target, hold and release.

This is the ONLY position that offers an even remote amount of steadyness. It does not matter if I have pulled the string back 10 inches or 30, as long as I can get to this position.

If you pick up a bow and you cannot get to this position, you will not hit your target...unless it is like 5 feet in front of you and even then you might not.

A bow, that is too strong for you, is just that, Too damm strong for you.

If you can pull it to the proper position and hold for the 1 second it takes to steady, then it is NOT too strong for you. And if you can do it once, you can do it 10 times.

Again, it is not a matter of drawing the string to the optimal position. There is none, Somebody 5 foot tall does not draw the string as far back as somebody 6 foot tall.

The arguement is not weak, it is correct.

and used it as a stationary practice dummy, thowing volley after volley of arrows at the critter, knowing oocly it won't move at all in response, is the one going to get "nerfed

To that, #1 there is a skill timer, I don't care if he shoots 210 arrows, the skill is not going up any more. So, I say let him, Thats a lot of arrows to toss at a duskhorn. And big deal, since it is not PVP then he will shoot them stam drain or not because he can simply rest then continue shooting.

As to damage being nerfed.
Morganes wrote:

First, a bug was found in how armor was calculated with missile weapons. It will now be more effective against missile weapons. (This could be bad news if you hunt things with bow/arrows that have naturally tough hides) HUNTERS BEWARE!

And Oh yes, so it was a bug, yes yes, but the last bug on armor that was fixed pretty much crippled kick, at least for a time, and even now, its usefullness is limited to using against things with like zero armor. Even light leathers on a PC stop it, well, cept from HG's and maybe very strong muls.

[amoeba]

The arguement is not weak, it is correct.

Eh. still not a good analogy, mechanics of archery aside.  Archery is not lifting a car. I'm not into that either, if I was, I would suspect it would have to be a light car (i.e. tonka) that would be in my lifting category.

To that, #1 there is a skill timer, I don't care if he shoots 210 arrows, the skill is not going up any more. So, I say let him, Thats a lot of arrows to toss at a duskhorn. And big deal, since it is not PVP then he will shoot them stam drain or not because he can simply rest then continue shooting.

Missing my point there. I really don't care if they get a skill boost or not. Not only that, the twink can't tell at the point where the skill cap wears off so the argument is moot. They will continue to do so anyway, -thinking- they are getting a boost.

The point I was making is that using animals as stationary practice dummies is not good play.  Yet it is a common practice. Imposing a consequense, that they -will- notice is helpfull.  I'm not entirely convinced that the penalty should be a stamina drain. It could be that the animal will bolt, and the person can't use them in this fashion, or they will become enraged and charge.  This is how it works against a PC currently. In addition, most resonable players will have little real effect by the stamina drain.  So in short, I do care if they shoot 210 arrows.  Unless I am selling him the arrows of course.

As to damage being nerfed.
Morganes wrote:

First, a bug was found in how armor was calculated with missile weapons. It will now be more effective against missile weapons. (This could be bad news if you hunt things with bow/arrows that have naturally tough hides) HUNTERS BEWARE!

And Oh yes, so it was a bug, yes yes, but the last bug on armor that was fixed pretty much crippled kick, at least for a time, and even now, its usefullness is limited to using against things with like zero armor. Even light leathers on a PC stop it, well, cept from HG's and maybe very strong muls.

I don't comment against code as I don't know, nor want to know the particulars.  Nor do I guess on it's effects. In practice, it seems as effective as always. That is from me looking at the damage reflected after using said weapon.  My comments are based on actually trying the code and looking at the results from said action.

[Aldiel]

Not agreeing at all.

It is unrealistic to begin with to have to shoot at something so many times, but adding another unrealistic thing to it simply makes it what, I suppose Doubly unrealistic.

I could live with the shooting 20 times to kill it, because that is the way the game worked, even if it was unrealistic. But to turn around and remove more of what little realism there was, whats up with that? And I see no way at all that it adds to play. Things that don't ride get the short end of the stick and things that do, well, it simply is going to go unnoticed for them.

Then add in that archery is already a hard skill to get better at.

#1 Arrows are expensive, so, PC's that start practicing archery are normaly already established and pretty set in the coin area. The stam drain is meaningless to them since they are most likley VERY good riders and better then average in melee.

#2 Archery has to have reasonable weather to practice, and it is the ONLY skill that needs that. if the wind is too high, well, so much for shooting anything.

Archery was already self limiting in the twink department.

Then lets add in the also unrealistic ability to now draw a bow that is too strong for you with simply a bit more effort...HUH?

Hey Joe, go lift that car, alright, Its too heavy boss! Try harder, Alright. Hey, I lifted it...bah.

And archery is already a stick and move deal when in PVP, you only get 1-2 shots before you have to ride away or in chase anyway, so again, stam drain is doing nothing for strategy there.

Oh, and lets not forget that archery damage has already been recently nerfed anyway, So, what #3 or #4 on limiting the usefulness of the skill?

Well, I suppose I'm not playing atm, so I haven't tried out this new stamina drain on archery.  I can't really say more than I would assume the reason I listed before might be the reason the imms decided to add this stamina drain. *shrug*

[Aldiel]

This is kind of a derail, but I think Kick is definitely fine the way it is.  A skilled kicker is way annoying to fight even with silt-horror on.

[X-D]

Your right amoeba, I've missed your point completly, to the point of well...I don't see one at all.

But my point(s) are these.

Overall, archery Was more realistic in game then it is now. Period.

The way it is now adds nothing to the game that -I- can see but does detract (Again, from what realism there was). It does nothing to stop twinking and only marginally makes it more difficult to practice at all. The staff has not stated the reasons for making these changes and at least one staff hints that it is part of a larger whole. I hope so. But at the same time, I really do not think I at least am going to be much impressed.


I liked the subtle strategy that the combat code held before to be honest.
I think that the direction being taken is going to take away from that and it makes me sad.

Keep in mind. With my playing style and the types of chars I play, these changes, almost all of them, from the stam drains in combat skills to even archery and throw if it has it. Will actually help, or make it easier for my chars to pvp...not that I want that.

Shrug, Though I started this thread, I think at this time, I am done with it...least untill more comes about from this "Grand (misguided IMO) Plan".