I'm about to retire my pickpocket

[The Jester]

I'm bordering on 12 days of playing time with my pickpocket so far, and the class seems horribly underpowered. If you take a burglar and then remove all of the skills that make you interesting and powerful, then it seems a pickpocket is what you end up with. Therefore I quite frankly don't see what the point is.

All I can do code-wise steal the same 30 sid dagger from the same NPC, reboot after reboot. I used to be able to steal other things besides daggers, but after Morgenes' code change, that's a thing of the past. I had planned to begin working the taverns (and therefore other player characters), but after the code change I've held off on it, mostly because of the staff's advice to work with a partner (which would be easier of 95% of the game wasn't a warrior or a ranger), and that tight crowds are bad to work in (which sounds like the staff is telling me to never use the steal command in a place where I have any chance of encountering another player character).

Character-wise, I've unwittingly ended up having loose ties to a clan where it doesn't look like I'll ever get a chance to play a thief character. I had thought that this clan, with its rather grim reputation, would have great use for a pickpocket, but despite various hints to my employer that there is something mysterious and shady about me, and that I'd like do shady work, I've been mostly ignored.

Is there anyone whose successfully played a pickpocket, who can give me advice to help make some fun for myself?

Please keep in mind the following.

I want to play a pickpocket.

In much the same way that if I were to create a ranger, I would play a ranger, I would like this character to be a pickpocket. I don't want to be a merchant, I don't want to be an assassin, I don't want to be a fortune-teller, and I certainly don't want to be a warrior with the worst weapons skills in the game. What I want to do is lift important messages and valuable items from my helpless victims and deliver them to my employers in exchange for lucrative quantities of coins. I want to put my various skills into play in order to make contacts in places where other characters wouldn't dare travel. I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

[Coat of Arms]

Having similar experience with my pock-pocket. Now granted, I don't have as much playing time on him as you (about 3-4 days or so?) but I have absolutely incredible agility.

Disregarding the fact that peek fails 15 out of 20 times, and gets discovered something like 4 out of 10, I'm limited to stealing daggers, knives and other small trinkets that are generally worthless. I can't steal shortswords, belt-pouches, any piece of clothing bigger than a veil or a pair of gloves. My main income comes from bimbal leaves that I pick in the desert.

Also disregarding the fact that anyone can (and most do) render themselves completely immune to theft by locking -everything- down in a closed backpack or in a swordbelt hidden behind a cloak, I barely dare stealing from PCs because I know that failing a steal in the middle of a tavern basically means if not the end of my PC, then at least becoming known as a thief, which is pretty much the same (you'll either have a friendly and very final chat with a templar, or become watched whenever you show your face).

So far, my life as a pick-pocket consists of stealing 20-sid trinkets from a select few NPCs once per reboot.

Edit: and out of my total playing time on this PC, I think I've spent over 10% of it sitting in jail because steal fails quite often, and the crime code is pretty much instant-punishment.

[Aldiel]

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will likely never happen, or not for a very, very long time.  A twelve day old PT character is just coming into bloom.  

Here's what I suggest you do.  Contact your clan imms and tell them that you're looking to play a more shady role; tell them that you've made obvious hints to it IG as well (maybe include a log of it).  I would then start really thinking about your character and what motivates him.  There's nothing dull about stealing one item a day.  You just need to savor that item and make each theft come alive in a new light.  Every clan I can think of will have shadowy positions.  You just need to talk to the right people and hint at the right things.  You need to present your character as a competent individual, and you need a clan leader who's willing to come up with fun little operations for you to do.

[Larrath]

If I had a competent pickpocket, I would hire myself out to wealthy individuals the same way an assassin might.  After all, Steal isn't the only useful ability pickpockets have...they also have Plant!

While an assassin is capable of sneaking around and causing death and destruction, pickpockets are the best tools for sowing chaos, confusing and misinformation.


I can't really offer any help as far as getting good with steal goes.  Perhaps the recent modifications to Steal, combined with the Watch command, have made the ability more difficult to use than it should be.  On the other hand, wasn't it also posted that being unnoticed by the victim would make the stealing attempt all the much easier?  Same goes for using misdirection with a partner, and this doesn't require them to have any coded skill as far as I understand it.

Maybe we just need more NPCs in various places to be able to steal from, and to somehow design a more complete and realistic system for stealing from them.  That last thing would need deeper consideration though.

[Arbonne]

The staff posted a few suggestions abit back. Stick with those.  :wink:

[Coat of Arms]

The staff posted a few suggestions abit back. Stick with those.

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"? Unless they've got superhuman abilities with the code, I don't think any of those things change the fact that they butchered the peek and steal skills to utter uselessness, at least for new pickpockets. And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

[Larrath]

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"?

If I understand these suggestions correctly, they should make stealing successfully far easier.  So yes.

Unless they've got superhuman abilities with the code, I don't think any of those things change the fact that they butchered the peek and steal skills to utter uselessness, at least for new pickpockets.

I don't know about this part, so I won't make a comment towards either direction.

And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

This is wrong.  You only roll a dice for your survival if you fail a steal without ensuring you have some sort of a safety net.  A templar friend, some valuable contacts, some friends to intimidate the victim into staying quiet, et cetera.  Make use of those.

[Coat of Arms]

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"?

If I understand these suggestions correctly, they should make stealing successfully far easier.  So yes.

They do for the RP aspect of it, but they do nothing to the fact that trying to steal anything that weighs more than a bone dagger or a glow crystal seems impossible (at least for me so far), and stealing even the lightest of items with an AI-agility PC has a failure rate of at least 20-30% for me.

And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

This is wrong.  You only roll a dice for your survival if you fail a steal without ensuring you have some sort of a safety net.  A templar friend, some valuable contacts, some friends to intimidate the victim into staying quiet, et cetera.  Make use of those.

First of all, what I meant was that failing steal has about a 50% chance of netting you the "wanted" flag, in a city that has guards in every few rooms. More often than not, you'll get insta-caught because there's a guard one room away. Also, sneak doesn't work. In other words, getting wanted anywhere away from your apartment or another safe hideout means you go to jail. If you go to jail, it means that any templar who finds you there will most likely kill you. Unless you're lucky enough to have an agreement with the one templar who happens to find you in that cell, can afford the bribe, and the person you failed from hasn't spread the word to the entire city before you can find him and do something to change his mind. Oh, and should you forget to put nosave on once, you're dead.

[The Jester]

I'd really like this thread to be about how to make the pickpocket class work than about complaints regarding the new code changes.

3-4 days really isn't a long enough time to complain about your pickpocket's failure rate being too high.  My pickpocket also has absolutely incredible agility, but at 12 days (and even before then) my success rates on various pickpocket skills (I won't go into specifics) are vastly improved when compared to where I was at 3-4 days.

[Kalden]

My guess is that you should wait until someone is "watching" someone else and then move in or peek. Work on your hide skill (yes, I know you don't start with it), and steal from hidden, then hide again.

Crit-fail steals are probably still rare if you go after "distracted" individuals, so you should do ok if you pay attention to these details.

If I had a competent pickpocket, I would hire myself out to wealthy individuals the same way an assassin might. After all, Steal isn't the only useful ability pickpockets have...they also have Plant!

The point is that the STEAL and PEEK skill don't work very well anymore. Plant is based off steal. Not only that, but one cannot, last I played, plant an object IN A CONTAINER. This makes plant fairly limited, as most people will notice the offending object in their inventory before they walk out the gates and die to the crime code.

The whole "I'll plant something and tell a templar about it" thing is easier said than done as well. The templars rarely need to arrange such a thing - they can just take people.

Every clan I can think of will have shadowy positions. You just need to talk to the right people and hint at the right things. You need to present your character as a competent individual, and you need a clan leader who's willing to come up with fun little operations for you to do.

What I want to do is lift important messages and valuable items from my helpless victims and deliver them to my employers in exchange for lucrative quantities of coins.

Pickpockets are by and large pretty useless for grabbing precious, highly guarded items. They're only really useful for grabbing little trinkets and thereby gathering coin. Employers don't realize this, but they soon find out. Nobles will have NPC bodyguards which are nigh-impossible to get past and the others will keep their items in their belts under the cloak, or in closed pouches. That's disregarding the occasional idiot.

If you really want to get good contracts, play a burglar or an assassin. Burgling, mugging, or killing people is a better way to grab their precious, highly guarded items. Though it's hinted that pickpockets get sap, most pickpockets won't have the strength to do much with it, and it's very hard to train.

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will never happen...

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

With an attitude like that, good luck.

I've played 2 30+day pickpockets, one elven and one half-elven. Both had pretty good stats, especially agility. I stopped crit-failing around 10 days, probably, and stopped failing entirely eventually. But my experience is probably different than yours.

I have noticed that everytime a 'rinther NPC tries to steal from me (with my newbie characters, who have a newbie watch skill) now, I notice it. Which is pretty damn strange, considering I never noticed them before.

[Morgenes]

I've asked this before, and will post it here again.  If you have logs of your stealing activities, please send them to morgenes@ginka.armageddon.org and cc mud.

People keep pointing out the working in pairs thing as if that was the only suggestion I made, however that was not.  The working pairs idea only helps with a certain part of the new code.  There were several other suggestions I made, I won't bother repeating them here.

Also the IC suggestions made here have all been great options.  Listen to your fellow players and play smarter.

And if you would please (original poster) read your email and respond.  There have been code changes within the last few weeks that affect the weight issues of which you speak.

[Arbonne]

Whew, Nakki must have gotten rough for picks over the years. A simple commoner gets killed for simply getting caught stealing? Must be a masacre every day then.  :wink:

Havn't played a pickpocket in abit, but even before the code, how well you were able to steal when just beginning a pickpocket was always very difficult. Though, you don't always have to begin stealing from people...  :roll:

[Intrepid]

My own take on it:

Here is how thieves of all shades are meant to work...

The thief/rogue is not necessarily a thrill-seeker or someone who has
great discipline or even great training, to be honest.  Someone is a thief
because:

1) They cannot get honest work for whatever reason, such as race, a
deformity, a bad reputation, etc.

...OR...

2) They're looking for the shortcut to life.

Notice that last one?  The shortcut.  Backstab is a single skill that is, in
itself, a shortcut that bypasses all those wizardly studies and all those
years in the sparring circle honing either the mind or the body.  It is not
meant to be the ultimate mastery of a person's entire life.  Thief skills, in
general, are the dishonest shortcut to living.  That's what all the skills of a
rogue class from D&D have in common.

Now, let's break this down in Armageddon terms:

Assassin: Why take on someone fairly when you can get a quick, clean
kill that no one will ever see.  Cut through the bs and get the job done
already.

Burglar: Bust into a place, get yourself some riches and duck out of there
before anyone comes home.

Pickpocket: Don't earn an honest living.  Live off of those who do.  They
make the money, you skim a bit off the top of everyone.

That is what, in essence, these classes are meant to be, at least from a
D&D sense.  On Arm, these are not shortcuts and never have been.  It is,
in my opinion, more difficult to be a rogue than it is to be a warrior or a
ranger in this setting.

In terms of Thieving Guilds:

Guilds are meant to enforce a monopoly, known either publically or
secretly, in exchange for protection by said Guild and benefits.  Usually,
these are things such as:

1) A place to lie low after a crime or successful identification.
2) Superior contraband equipment for lower cost.
3) Occasional group opportunities, like a burglary.
4) Word on the street.
5) A fence to sell hot items to--usually sold to the populace of another
city.

Only #1 has been provided by organizations of this type in the past.

All in all, I think the Watch command is great.  However, from my personal
experience, crowds are not a detriment.  Taverns and The Bazaar should
be the perfect places to steal, as everyone is bumping into each other and
that hand could be anyone's.  The Trader's is the only place I can see
being a pilfer-proof establishment.  The Plaza and Caravan Way should
also be prime targets.  Sneak and Hide should be exceedingly easier for
urban types in these areas also, as you're blending into the crowd.  If
you are being watched, you should almost always fail stealth or pilfering
attempts.  Otherwise, it's a matter of stacked chance.

Anyway, I think you get what I'm saying above.

[Anonymous]

I'd really like this thread to be about how to make the pickpocket class work

Change to the crime code so that unsuccesful steal doesn't instantly get you wanted in the entire city the very second it happens.

Change to the crime code so that guards don't teleport into your room and subdue you without any delay.

Change to the crime code so that forgetting nosave doesn't cost you a character.

Higher starting skill for peek.

Possibly higher starting skill for steal. Might not be necessary if the above-mentioned suggestions got in.

Give NPCs in cities more items that can be stolen. So far I've seen like 10 in all of Allanak, and I've pretty much checked them all. Also, I have not ever heard of an NPC that actually carried coins. Small amounts of coins (say units of 5 'sid scattered on NPCs across the bazaar in Nak and equivalent in Tuluk). These could be easy to steal and give pickpockets some way to train their skill.

Complete rework of the nosave code. There was a thread about that once. Different on/off toggles for nosave: subdue, law, climb etc.

Change sneak so that guards are not codedly immune to it.

Let players now right away when someone watches them. You get an echo when someone looks at you. Why not when they start staring at you? If someone's watching me, I want to know right away, both because it should be logical and because it means that stealing from them is close to impossible. "Joe Schmoe starts watching you". I seriously don't see why not.

[Arbonne]

Let players now right away when someone watches them. You get an echo when someone looks at you. Why not when they start staring at you? If someone's watching me, I want to know right away, both because it should be logical and because it means that stealing from them is close to impossible. "Joe Schmoe starts watching you". I seriously don't see why not

They might be watching from the corner of their eyes, or from a few people down, the guy might be standing right behind you. You won't notice -everyone- who might be keeping an extra watch upon your activities. That's why there's a certain chance you -do- find out.

[marko]

My own take on it:

Here is how thieves of all shades are meant to work...

Just going to add that this is valid in Allanak but not necessarily Tuluk.

1) They cannot get honest work for whatever reason, such as race, a
deformity, a bad reputation, etc.

Licensed thievery in Tuluk could be considered honest work.

As for the original topic about steal being affected by watch - I know that it has but I will not offer anything more than that since I'm not playing a pickpocket.

[The Jester]

And if you would please (original poster) read your email and respond.  There have been code changes within the last few weeks that affect the weight issues of which you speak.

I have.  Did you not get my E-mail?

[Intrepid]

Just going to add that this is valid in Allanak but not necessarily Tuluk.

Licensed thievery in Tuluk could be considered honest work.

Whoops.

Sorry, guys.  I should clarified I meant this for the basic idea of the class
from D&D.  Tuluk is a completely different beast in that regard, while
Allanak conforms a little closer to the classic D&D mindset of thievery.

[The Jester]

And to expand upon my response to Morgenes... I don't really think that the watch command broke the pickpocket class, I think that they were already broken before that.  I'm sorry if I was misleading in my previous statements.

Pickpockets are broken because they are too limited in what they can steal.  They should be able to steal things from closed containers.  They should be able to steal things from that belt pouch beneath your cloak.  They should be able to steal weapons that are slung across your back.  When they get especially talented, they should be able to steal the jewelry you are wearing.  There should be very little that is safe from a skilled pickpocket.

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

A realistic warrior would probably be only decent at fighting, capable of defending walls and guarding locations but ill suited to do miraculous things like single-handedly take on enormous beasts, become immune to ranged weapons, and fight off several opponents at once.  But a warrior in Armageddon can do all those things.  So why can't a pickpocket eventually become able to perform similar spectacular, near-legendary feats in their own fields, just like warriors, rangers, and assassins can?

[Delirium]

Who says they can't?

To expand on my point:

Pickpockets should have to be long-lived and well established before performing any 'miraculous' feats.  Thieves and other stealth characters should and do require patience, and lots of it.  Rangers, warriors, you don't see them performing "miraculous" feats until they've reached higher levels of playtime, and neither should pickpockets.  It quite honestly sounds to me as if you are being impatient and focusing a bit too much on the code.

Enjoy developing your character, and watch them grow over time from a bumbling two-'sid pickpocket to the slickest thief this side of Allanak.  Do not expect to be able to pull off amazing stuff in 10, even 30 days.  I would expect a warrior or a ranger to have quite a lot of time on them before they started pulling any amazing stunts, and assassins, pickpockets with true skill should be the same.

Otherwise you get thieves "out of the box" so to speak, with a handful of ten-days on them robbing the PC populace of everything that isn't physically stapled, glued, and bolted and chained to their bodies.  Which isn't all that fun after the 200th time.

And yes, I leave things (including 'sid!) in my pockets.

Just my opinion.

[The Jester]

Who says they can't?

Kalden.

[Intrepid]

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

Really?  So you're saying it's a lifelong vocation to pit one's wits against
better funded and magickally-augmented templars, nobles and merchants
just for the hell of it?  Sorry, I can't see someone risking their lives just
because they're bored with their 9 to 5 merc job.  Especially not a
run-of-the-mill Joe Shmoe human who could potentially get a cushy job
being Lord Fancypants' shadow for the rest of his natural life.

All classes and subclasses must have reasons that they come about that
fit circumstance and environment.

[Bogre]

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will never happen...

Uhh, yes, it can. A pickpocket who has done weapons training can still be very dangerous. Will he be able to compete with a warrior of the same training? No.

Can he hold his own against lesser trained people? Yes, of course. Just like magickers and merchants can get some small skill in combat, so can pickpockets.

Some small skill with weapons is also a pickpocket's province.

[Delirium]

Who says they can't?

Kalden.

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?

The GDB is, in general, a bad place to go for discussions on the specifics of game mechanics and code, IMHO.

[Larrath]

Pickpockets are broken because they are too limited in what they can steal.  They should be able to steal things from closed containers.  They should be able to steal things from that belt pouch beneath your cloak.  They should be able to steal weapons that are slung across your back.  When they get especially talented, they should be able to steal the jewelry you are wearing.  There should be very little that is safe from a skilled pickpocket.

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

I second this motion, especially in regards to closed containers.  Unless your character is using a backpack with five leather buckles holding it shut (at which case you should experience lag while opening/closing it a la keyrings), it should be pretty easy for even a bumbling thief to simply open your backpack.
Rings too - how many times have we seen someone kiss a lady's hand and steal her ring with his teeth or shake a man's hand and steal his ring or bracelet?
Some rings should be harder to steal though, and gloves should also affect this.  Signet rings in particular are very bulky as far as rings go, and I also wouldn't like to see a 50-day Pickpocket steal every silver signet ring from every noble PC and NPC in Allanak in one RL day.

But still, expanding the use of steal could be pretty nice.  I'd also like to see the use of Plant being expanded to allow thieves to place objects in people's containers and even hang them on their belts (with a very steep penalty for that one).

Sure, stealing someone's shirt or pants is really hard, but a hat, a belt with nothing tied to it, anything worn on the shoulder, entire backpacks, sheaths and slung weapons, necklaces, bracelets, rings and anklets should all be subject to stealing.

The problem is, of course, that while a very twinky warrior can be reported easily and any magickers capable of doing damage without detection would be well known by the staff, a twink pickpocket can relatively easily steal a wagonload of items and almost never be detected between Hide, Sneak and successful steals.  It could seriously make the game unplayable.
I remember a major twink elf pickpocket who would run around about a year and a half ago, stealing all he could and sneaking in and out of rooms to avoid detection.  He was a menace, and all he could steal from were, well, what thieves can steal right now.  I know he was a menace because when I sent my email about him, I was told that my complaint was one of several.

So there are two sides to this coin.