I'm about to retire my pickpocket

[The Jester]

I'm bordering on 12 days of playing time with my pickpocket so far, and the class seems horribly underpowered. If you take a burglar and then remove all of the skills that make you interesting and powerful, then it seems a pickpocket is what you end up with. Therefore I quite frankly don't see what the point is.

All I can do code-wise steal the same 30 sid dagger from the same NPC, reboot after reboot. I used to be able to steal other things besides daggers, but after Morgenes' code change, that's a thing of the past. I had planned to begin working the taverns (and therefore other player characters), but after the code change I've held off on it, mostly because of the staff's advice to work with a partner (which would be easier of 95% of the game wasn't a warrior or a ranger), and that tight crowds are bad to work in (which sounds like the staff is telling me to never use the steal command in a place where I have any chance of encountering another player character).

Character-wise, I've unwittingly ended up having loose ties to a clan where it doesn't look like I'll ever get a chance to play a thief character. I had thought that this clan, with its rather grim reputation, would have great use for a pickpocket, but despite various hints to my employer that there is something mysterious and shady about me, and that I'd like do shady work, I've been mostly ignored.

Is there anyone whose successfully played a pickpocket, who can give me advice to help make some fun for myself?

Please keep in mind the following.

I want to play a pickpocket.

In much the same way that if I were to create a ranger, I would play a ranger, I would like this character to be a pickpocket. I don't want to be a merchant, I don't want to be an assassin, I don't want to be a fortune-teller, and I certainly don't want to be a warrior with the worst weapons skills in the game. What I want to do is lift important messages and valuable items from my helpless victims and deliver them to my employers in exchange for lucrative quantities of coins. I want to put my various skills into play in order to make contacts in places where other characters wouldn't dare travel. I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

[Coat of Arms]

Having similar experience with my pock-pocket. Now granted, I don't have as much playing time on him as you (about 3-4 days or so?) but I have absolutely incredible agility.

Disregarding the fact that peek fails 15 out of 20 times, and gets discovered something like 4 out of 10, I'm limited to stealing daggers, knives and other small trinkets that are generally worthless. I can't steal shortswords, belt-pouches, any piece of clothing bigger than a veil or a pair of gloves. My main income comes from bimbal leaves that I pick in the desert.

Also disregarding the fact that anyone can (and most do) render themselves completely immune to theft by locking -everything- down in a closed backpack or in a swordbelt hidden behind a cloak, I barely dare stealing from PCs because I know that failing a steal in the middle of a tavern basically means if not the end of my PC, then at least becoming known as a thief, which is pretty much the same (you'll either have a friendly and very final chat with a templar, or become watched whenever you show your face).

So far, my life as a pick-pocket consists of stealing 20-sid trinkets from a select few NPCs once per reboot.

Edit: and out of my total playing time on this PC, I think I've spent over 10% of it sitting in jail because steal fails quite often, and the crime code is pretty much instant-punishment.

[Aldiel]

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will likely never happen, or not for a very, very long time.  A twelve day old PT character is just coming into bloom.  

Here's what I suggest you do.  Contact your clan imms and tell them that you're looking to play a more shady role; tell them that you've made obvious hints to it IG as well (maybe include a log of it).  I would then start really thinking about your character and what motivates him.  There's nothing dull about stealing one item a day.  You just need to savor that item and make each theft come alive in a new light.  Every clan I can think of will have shadowy positions.  You just need to talk to the right people and hint at the right things.  You need to present your character as a competent individual, and you need a clan leader who's willing to come up with fun little operations for you to do.

[Larrath]

If I had a competent pickpocket, I would hire myself out to wealthy individuals the same way an assassin might.  After all, Steal isn't the only useful ability pickpockets have...they also have Plant!

While an assassin is capable of sneaking around and causing death and destruction, pickpockets are the best tools for sowing chaos, confusing and misinformation.


I can't really offer any help as far as getting good with steal goes.  Perhaps the recent modifications to Steal, combined with the Watch command, have made the ability more difficult to use than it should be.  On the other hand, wasn't it also posted that being unnoticed by the victim would make the stealing attempt all the much easier?  Same goes for using misdirection with a partner, and this doesn't require them to have any coded skill as far as I understand it.

Maybe we just need more NPCs in various places to be able to steal from, and to somehow design a more complete and realistic system for stealing from them.  That last thing would need deeper consideration though.

[Arbonne]

The staff posted a few suggestions abit back. Stick with those.  :wink:

[Coat of Arms]

The staff posted a few suggestions abit back. Stick with those.

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"? Unless they've got superhuman abilities with the code, I don't think any of those things change the fact that they butchered the peek and steal skills to utter uselessness, at least for new pickpockets. And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

[Larrath]

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"?

If I understand these suggestions correctly, they should make stealing successfully far easier.  So yes.

Unless they've got superhuman abilities with the code, I don't think any of those things change the fact that they butchered the peek and steal skills to utter uselessness, at least for new pickpockets.

I don't know about this part, so I won't make a comment towards either direction.

And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

This is wrong.  You only roll a dice for your survival if you fail a steal without ensuring you have some sort of a safety net.  A templar friend, some valuable contacts, some friends to intimidate the victim into staying quiet, et cetera.  Make use of those.

[Coat of Arms]

What, suggestions like "work in pairs" and "distractions are good"?

If I understand these suggestions correctly, they should make stealing successfully far easier.  So yes.

They do for the RP aspect of it, but they do nothing to the fact that trying to steal anything that weighs more than a bone dagger or a glow crystal seems impossible (at least for me so far), and stealing even the lightest of items with an AI-agility PC has a failure rate of at least 20-30% for me.

And every time you fail a steal, you roll a dice for your survival.

This is wrong.  You only roll a dice for your survival if you fail a steal without ensuring you have some sort of a safety net.  A templar friend, some valuable contacts, some friends to intimidate the victim into staying quiet, et cetera.  Make use of those.

First of all, what I meant was that failing steal has about a 50% chance of netting you the "wanted" flag, in a city that has guards in every few rooms. More often than not, you'll get insta-caught because there's a guard one room away. Also, sneak doesn't work. In other words, getting wanted anywhere away from your apartment or another safe hideout means you go to jail. If you go to jail, it means that any templar who finds you there will most likely kill you. Unless you're lucky enough to have an agreement with the one templar who happens to find you in that cell, can afford the bribe, and the person you failed from hasn't spread the word to the entire city before you can find him and do something to change his mind. Oh, and should you forget to put nosave on once, you're dead.

[The Jester]

I'd really like this thread to be about how to make the pickpocket class work than about complaints regarding the new code changes.

3-4 days really isn't a long enough time to complain about your pickpocket's failure rate being too high.  My pickpocket also has absolutely incredible agility, but at 12 days (and even before then) my success rates on various pickpocket skills (I won't go into specifics) are vastly improved when compared to where I was at 3-4 days.

[Kalden]

My guess is that you should wait until someone is "watching" someone else and then move in or peek. Work on your hide skill (yes, I know you don't start with it), and steal from hidden, then hide again.

Crit-fail steals are probably still rare if you go after "distracted" individuals, so you should do ok if you pay attention to these details.

If I had a competent pickpocket, I would hire myself out to wealthy individuals the same way an assassin might. After all, Steal isn't the only useful ability pickpockets have...they also have Plant!

The point is that the STEAL and PEEK skill don't work very well anymore. Plant is based off steal. Not only that, but one cannot, last I played, plant an object IN A CONTAINER. This makes plant fairly limited, as most people will notice the offending object in their inventory before they walk out the gates and die to the crime code.

The whole "I'll plant something and tell a templar about it" thing is easier said than done as well. The templars rarely need to arrange such a thing - they can just take people.

Every clan I can think of will have shadowy positions. You just need to talk to the right people and hint at the right things. You need to present your character as a competent individual, and you need a clan leader who's willing to come up with fun little operations for you to do.

What I want to do is lift important messages and valuable items from my helpless victims and deliver them to my employers in exchange for lucrative quantities of coins.

Pickpockets are by and large pretty useless for grabbing precious, highly guarded items. They're only really useful for grabbing little trinkets and thereby gathering coin. Employers don't realize this, but they soon find out. Nobles will have NPC bodyguards which are nigh-impossible to get past and the others will keep their items in their belts under the cloak, or in closed pouches. That's disregarding the occasional idiot.

If you really want to get good contracts, play a burglar or an assassin. Burgling, mugging, or killing people is a better way to grab their precious, highly guarded items. Though it's hinted that pickpockets get sap, most pickpockets won't have the strength to do much with it, and it's very hard to train.

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will never happen...

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

With an attitude like that, good luck.

I've played 2 30+day pickpockets, one elven and one half-elven. Both had pretty good stats, especially agility. I stopped crit-failing around 10 days, probably, and stopped failing entirely eventually. But my experience is probably different than yours.

I have noticed that everytime a 'rinther NPC tries to steal from me (with my newbie characters, who have a newbie watch skill) now, I notice it. Which is pretty damn strange, considering I never noticed them before.

[Morgenes]

I've asked this before, and will post it here again.  If you have logs of your stealing activities, please send them to morgenes@ginka.armageddon.org and cc mud.

People keep pointing out the working in pairs thing as if that was the only suggestion I made, however that was not.  The working pairs idea only helps with a certain part of the new code.  There were several other suggestions I made, I won't bother repeating them here.

Also the IC suggestions made here have all been great options.  Listen to your fellow players and play smarter.

And if you would please (original poster) read your email and respond.  There have been code changes within the last few weeks that affect the weight issues of which you speak.

[Arbonne]

Whew, Nakki must have gotten rough for picks over the years. A simple commoner gets killed for simply getting caught stealing? Must be a masacre every day then.  :wink:

Havn't played a pickpocket in abit, but even before the code, how well you were able to steal when just beginning a pickpocket was always very difficult. Though, you don't always have to begin stealing from people...  :roll:

[Intrepid]

My own take on it:

Here is how thieves of all shades are meant to work...

The thief/rogue is not necessarily a thrill-seeker or someone who has
great discipline or even great training, to be honest.  Someone is a thief
because:

1) They cannot get honest work for whatever reason, such as race, a
deformity, a bad reputation, etc.

...OR...

2) They're looking for the shortcut to life.

Notice that last one?  The shortcut.  Backstab is a single skill that is, in
itself, a shortcut that bypasses all those wizardly studies and all those
years in the sparring circle honing either the mind or the body.  It is not
meant to be the ultimate mastery of a person's entire life.  Thief skills, in
general, are the dishonest shortcut to living.  That's what all the skills of a
rogue class from D&D have in common.

Now, let's break this down in Armageddon terms:

Assassin: Why take on someone fairly when you can get a quick, clean
kill that no one will ever see.  Cut through the bs and get the job done
already.

Burglar: Bust into a place, get yourself some riches and duck out of there
before anyone comes home.

Pickpocket: Don't earn an honest living.  Live off of those who do.  They
make the money, you skim a bit off the top of everyone.

That is what, in essence, these classes are meant to be, at least from a
D&D sense.  On Arm, these are not shortcuts and never have been.  It is,
in my opinion, more difficult to be a rogue than it is to be a warrior or a
ranger in this setting.

In terms of Thieving Guilds:

Guilds are meant to enforce a monopoly, known either publically or
secretly, in exchange for protection by said Guild and benefits.  Usually,
these are things such as:

1) A place to lie low after a crime or successful identification.
2) Superior contraband equipment for lower cost.
3) Occasional group opportunities, like a burglary.
4) Word on the street.
5) A fence to sell hot items to--usually sold to the populace of another
city.

Only #1 has been provided by organizations of this type in the past.

All in all, I think the Watch command is great.  However, from my personal
experience, crowds are not a detriment.  Taverns and The Bazaar should
be the perfect places to steal, as everyone is bumping into each other and
that hand could be anyone's.  The Trader's is the only place I can see
being a pilfer-proof establishment.  The Plaza and Caravan Way should
also be prime targets.  Sneak and Hide should be exceedingly easier for
urban types in these areas also, as you're blending into the crowd.  If
you are being watched, you should almost always fail stealth or pilfering
attempts.  Otherwise, it's a matter of stacked chance.

Anyway, I think you get what I'm saying above.

[Anonymous]

I'd really like this thread to be about how to make the pickpocket class work

Change to the crime code so that unsuccesful steal doesn't instantly get you wanted in the entire city the very second it happens.

Change to the crime code so that guards don't teleport into your room and subdue you without any delay.

Change to the crime code so that forgetting nosave doesn't cost you a character.

Higher starting skill for peek.

Possibly higher starting skill for steal. Might not be necessary if the above-mentioned suggestions got in.

Give NPCs in cities more items that can be stolen. So far I've seen like 10 in all of Allanak, and I've pretty much checked them all. Also, I have not ever heard of an NPC that actually carried coins. Small amounts of coins (say units of 5 'sid scattered on NPCs across the bazaar in Nak and equivalent in Tuluk). These could be easy to steal and give pickpockets some way to train their skill.

Complete rework of the nosave code. There was a thread about that once. Different on/off toggles for nosave: subdue, law, climb etc.

Change sneak so that guards are not codedly immune to it.

Let players now right away when someone watches them. You get an echo when someone looks at you. Why not when they start staring at you? If someone's watching me, I want to know right away, both because it should be logical and because it means that stealing from them is close to impossible. "Joe Schmoe starts watching you". I seriously don't see why not.

[Arbonne]

Let players now right away when someone watches them. You get an echo when someone looks at you. Why not when they start staring at you? If someone's watching me, I want to know right away, both because it should be logical and because it means that stealing from them is close to impossible. "Joe Schmoe starts watching you". I seriously don't see why not

They might be watching from the corner of their eyes, or from a few people down, the guy might be standing right behind you. You won't notice -everyone- who might be keeping an extra watch upon your activities. That's why there's a certain chance you -do- find out.

[marko]

My own take on it:

Here is how thieves of all shades are meant to work...

Just going to add that this is valid in Allanak but not necessarily Tuluk.

1) They cannot get honest work for whatever reason, such as race, a
deformity, a bad reputation, etc.

Licensed thievery in Tuluk could be considered honest work.

As for the original topic about steal being affected by watch - I know that it has but I will not offer anything more than that since I'm not playing a pickpocket.

[The Jester]

And if you would please (original poster) read your email and respond.  There have been code changes within the last few weeks that affect the weight issues of which you speak.

I have.  Did you not get my E-mail?

[Intrepid]

Just going to add that this is valid in Allanak but not necessarily Tuluk.

Licensed thievery in Tuluk could be considered honest work.

Whoops.

Sorry, guys.  I should clarified I meant this for the basic idea of the class
from D&D.  Tuluk is a completely different beast in that regard, while
Allanak conforms a little closer to the classic D&D mindset of thievery.

[The Jester]

And to expand upon my response to Morgenes... I don't really think that the watch command broke the pickpocket class, I think that they were already broken before that.  I'm sorry if I was misleading in my previous statements.

Pickpockets are broken because they are too limited in what they can steal.  They should be able to steal things from closed containers.  They should be able to steal things from that belt pouch beneath your cloak.  They should be able to steal weapons that are slung across your back.  When they get especially talented, they should be able to steal the jewelry you are wearing.  There should be very little that is safe from a skilled pickpocket.

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

A realistic warrior would probably be only decent at fighting, capable of defending walls and guarding locations but ill suited to do miraculous things like single-handedly take on enormous beasts, become immune to ranged weapons, and fight off several opponents at once.  But a warrior in Armageddon can do all those things.  So why can't a pickpocket eventually become able to perform similar spectacular, near-legendary feats in their own fields, just like warriors, rangers, and assassins can?

[Delirium]

Who says they can't?

To expand on my point:

Pickpockets should have to be long-lived and well established before performing any 'miraculous' feats.  Thieves and other stealth characters should and do require patience, and lots of it.  Rangers, warriors, you don't see them performing "miraculous" feats until they've reached higher levels of playtime, and neither should pickpockets.  It quite honestly sounds to me as if you are being impatient and focusing a bit too much on the code.

Enjoy developing your character, and watch them grow over time from a bumbling two-'sid pickpocket to the slickest thief this side of Allanak.  Do not expect to be able to pull off amazing stuff in 10, even 30 days.  I would expect a warrior or a ranger to have quite a lot of time on them before they started pulling any amazing stunts, and assassins, pickpockets with true skill should be the same.

Otherwise you get thieves "out of the box" so to speak, with a handful of ten-days on them robbing the PC populace of everything that isn't physically stapled, glued, and bolted and chained to their bodies.  Which isn't all that fun after the 200th time.

And yes, I leave things (including 'sid!) in my pockets.

Just my opinion.

[The Jester]

Who says they can't?

Kalden.

[Intrepid]

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

Really?  So you're saying it's a lifelong vocation to pit one's wits against
better funded and magickally-augmented templars, nobles and merchants
just for the hell of it?  Sorry, I can't see someone risking their lives just
because they're bored with their 9 to 5 merc job.  Especially not a
run-of-the-mill Joe Shmoe human who could potentially get a cushy job
being Lord Fancypants' shadow for the rest of his natural life.

All classes and subclasses must have reasons that they come about that
fit circumstance and environment.

[Bogre]

I want to occasionally raise my hand and destroy any competitors with my knife-work in moon-lit alleys in the dead of night.

This will never happen...

Uhh, yes, it can. A pickpocket who has done weapons training can still be very dangerous. Will he be able to compete with a warrior of the same training? No.

Can he hold his own against lesser trained people? Yes, of course. Just like magickers and merchants can get some small skill in combat, so can pickpockets.

Some small skill with weapons is also a pickpocket's province.

[Delirium]

Who says they can't?

Kalden.

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?

The GDB is, in general, a bad place to go for discussions on the specifics of game mechanics and code, IMHO.

[Larrath]

Pickpockets are broken because they are too limited in what they can steal.  They should be able to steal things from closed containers.  They should be able to steal things from that belt pouch beneath your cloak.  They should be able to steal weapons that are slung across your back.  When they get especially talented, they should be able to steal the jewelry you are wearing.  There should be very little that is safe from a skilled pickpocket.

I disagree with the implications that a pickpocket is some unskilled individual that's just out to make a quick buck.  That's what a pickpocket in real life would be, not a pickpocket in a fantasy setting.

I second this motion, especially in regards to closed containers.  Unless your character is using a backpack with five leather buckles holding it shut (at which case you should experience lag while opening/closing it a la keyrings), it should be pretty easy for even a bumbling thief to simply open your backpack.
Rings too - how many times have we seen someone kiss a lady's hand and steal her ring with his teeth or shake a man's hand and steal his ring or bracelet?
Some rings should be harder to steal though, and gloves should also affect this.  Signet rings in particular are very bulky as far as rings go, and I also wouldn't like to see a 50-day Pickpocket steal every silver signet ring from every noble PC and NPC in Allanak in one RL day.

But still, expanding the use of steal could be pretty nice.  I'd also like to see the use of Plant being expanded to allow thieves to place objects in people's containers and even hang them on their belts (with a very steep penalty for that one).

Sure, stealing someone's shirt or pants is really hard, but a hat, a belt with nothing tied to it, anything worn on the shoulder, entire backpacks, sheaths and slung weapons, necklaces, bracelets, rings and anklets should all be subject to stealing.

The problem is, of course, that while a very twinky warrior can be reported easily and any magickers capable of doing damage without detection would be well known by the staff, a twink pickpocket can relatively easily steal a wagonload of items and almost never be detected between Hide, Sneak and successful steals.  It could seriously make the game unplayable.
I remember a major twink elf pickpocket who would run around about a year and a half ago, stealing all he could and sneaking in and out of rooms to avoid detection.  He was a menace, and all he could steal from were, well, what thieves can steal right now.  I know he was a menace because when I sent my email about him, I was told that my complaint was one of several.

So there are two sides to this coin.

[bloodfromstone]

I have only ever played a very, very short lived pickpocket back when I was first starting. I will say that the cities could use more random stealable items scattered about, coins especially. Crim-code, of course, could use some serious, serious work.

I would be hesitant to see pickpockets become more powerful than they were prior to the code change, though. About the same power level is fine, I had no beef with them before, but having suffered at the hands of a few twink thieves, I shudder to think about finding my pack empty every other day or my pants stolen every time I walk through a tavern. It is entirely possible that I just haven't had twink experiences with the other classes, but I've seen a lot more action from pickpockets in this regard. Maybe it's not fair to limit them because of this, or maybe it's selfish of me to think in these terms. I dunno, I'm just speaking from fairly limited experience.

I will say, however, if pickpockets can start stealing from closed containers, taking hammers off of peoples backs, etc, something should be in place to let individuals do something about it. Just as the crim-code obliterates newbie thieves, it protects experienced ones, when you stare the person who you know is milking you for all you're worth in the eyes and can't do anything to stop it. (Yes, I know PC law enforcement contacts, etc, etc, can be used, but this is not always possible for some character types and some playing times)

[Kalden]

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?

I've played two maxxed pickpockets with high agility...yes, you can never steal rings, steal from belts under cloaks, steal from people with NPC bodyguards(I tried...10 times? 20?), steal bracelets, ect. I know this. Anyone who's played a long-lived pickpocket knows this. Don't give people false hopes. People will always keep their good shit in closed bags. Yes, pickpockets can never open closed bags or, God forbid, slice them open and pull things out through that.

The problem that Jester is referring to is the one above - pickpockets are never a true threat to PCs. All the good shit is impossible to steal, even if you have maxxed steal. Unfortunately none of the templars really realized this (they sometimes suffer from the same misconceptions that Delirium does), and I did lose one of my characters because of it. I was ordered to steal a ring, and it was quite impossible.

On the other hand, if you roll a human or dwarf pickpocket with high strength, you can be a good mugger. I never dropped someone with one sap - my strength was never good enough. It's a damn hard to skill to train too.

Uhh, yes, it can. A pickpocket who has done weapons training can still be very dangerous. Will he be able to compete with a warrior of the same training? No.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'very dangerous'. A pickpocket who does weapons training for a long time can eventually beat down newbie burglars, assassins, rangers, and even warriors pretty well, yeah. I still wouldn't give pickpockets the false hope that they'll ever be really dangerous in combat. Then again, I probably didn't max my pickpockets' fighting skills.

I have PKed with the sap skill -- it's a stretch to call that "knife-work", but it can be a deadly skill.


Then again, maybe I'm just crazy and my pickpockets were a few points off from being maxxed. Maybe they can only get rings, bracelets, open bags, slip past NPC bodyguards (twinkishly maxxed in the guard skill, I'm sure) ect, when they max, which would be an interesting way to handle it. I was just at the point where I'd stopped failing completely. However, the evidence to the contrary:

1)I've never seen/heard of a ring being stolen.
2)Nobody with experience has really risen to contradict me.

All I know is that there A LOT of barriers in place which make it impossible to play the "contract" thief, and I've never figured out how to get past them.

[flurry]

More often than not, you'll get insta-caught because there's a guard one room away.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I don't know about now, with the changes to watch, but before pickpockets could get pretty darn good.  Scary good even.

[The Jester]

Really?  So you're saying it's a lifelong vocation to pit one's wits against better funded and magickally-augmented templars, nobles and merchants just for the hell of it?

Magickally-augmented?  Give me a break.

Sorry, I can't see someone risking their lives just because they're bored with their 9 to 5 merc job.

It's SO much safer to make a living as a mercenary, an undervalued warrior whose generally hired in instances where the house's permanent employees can't be risked.

Especially not a run-of-the-mill Joe Shmoe human who could potentially get a cushy job being Lord Fancypants' shadow for the rest of his natural life.

You seem to assume that a pickpocket has to work outside of the establishment.  Behold:

Pickpockets are masters of the art of stealing.

Typically, pickpockets work on their own, nicking whatever they can from targets passing by. However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.

Yes it's possible to play the character you describe.  But the documentation suggests it's also possible to play a very different sort of character, and that's what I want to do, and in fact it's basically what I created this character to do.

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject? Wink

Are you the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?  If so, please enlighten us and explain how a pickpocket can thrive while being a pickpocket.

Yes my reply was mainly as a joke, I'm not sure whether Kalden's experience is due to thoroughly exploring two fairly long-lived pickpocket characters or if it's due to thoroughly not getting two fairly long-lived pickpocket characters.  I'm waiting for somebody to say that he's wrong and that it's possible to thrive as a pickpocket and do exciting things, but so far all I'm getting is agreement.  I also got a PM from another player who had played a long-lived pickpocket, also agreeing that the pickpocket skill tree isn't as good as it should be.

I was hoping that somebody would post a suggestion that would make me realize that I was doing something wrong and I could enjoy the class, but I'm not seeing it yet.

[Intrepid]

So...templars are not magickally-augmented?  And you're trying to be a
legal thief.

It definitely sounds like a Tuluki-based thief is right up your alley.

As for the break, I'm sorry--I can't really give you that.  As for mercs not
being safer--who are you kidding?  Aren't you the one saying that one
mistake and you're in permanent danger?  Mercs can survive their
mistakes usually.  Usually.

[Kalden]

The one way that one used to be able to pick up good items was by shadowing people, waiting for them to open their containers, and then moving in. One had to be very careful to stop shadowing and hide immediately after, however, because, whether you failed or not, you're the only person around and you get "caught". It's also tricky to peek into the container and then steal the item in that small time.

With the watch skill, this is even more difficult, perhaps impossible. Good luck.

[The Jester]

Curse you.  Your ninja-editing is forcing me to double-post.

Pickpockets should have to be long-lived and well established before performing any 'miraculous' feats.  Thieves and other stealth characters should and do require patience, and lots of it.  Rangers, warriors, you don't see them performing "miraculous" feats until they've reached higher levels of playtime, and neither should pickpockets.  It quite honestly sounds to me as if you are being impatient and focusing a bit too much on the code.

Please understand that I'm not expecting my pickpocket to be a master thief already, and I won't expect it to be so in another 20 days.

But even a newbie warrior or ranger is capable of accomplishing the basic tasks their guild was created for.  For a pickpocket, this doesn't happen until about 5 days.  At 10 days, a warrior or ranger is capable of accomplishing quite a bit.  A pickpocket by contrast can't do anything nearly as exciting.  At 30 days, a warrior or ranger is probably beginning to shape into something that other players have a healthy respect for.  This isn't so with a pickpocket.  At 100 days, a warrior or ranger is a complete monster.  At this point, a pickpocket is no longer limited by their ability to succeed at the skills they are given, but limited by the fact that the skills themselves have such a limited utility.  This is the problem as I see it.

Enjoy developing your character, and watch them grow over time from a bumbling two-'sid pickpocket to the slickest thief this side of Allanak.

The slickest thief this side of Allanak would be able to steal your jewelry.  

And yes, I leave things (including 'sid!) in my pockets.

I bow down to your generosity.  If rangers couldn't kill someone with their archery skill unless they had their victims permission, you would have retired yours.

[jhunter]

Can't say, I've never played the pickpocket guild. Although, I've played a decent burglar who got by just fine picking pockets. I never really did see the point in playing the pickpocket guild when you can do pretty much the same with a burglar and -more- if you choose.

[Jherlen]

I don't have much experience with thief classes, so I'll defer to other people who've posted there. But to me, expecting a 12-day PC to pull off miracles or even advanced feats is a bit unrealistic. If you can nick 30-sid daggers consistently without getting caught, I think at this point you're doing good. I think you may need to lower expectations a bit.

IMO, all but the most legendary pickpockets will not be able to go around pulling rings off of fingers and robbing nobles and templars with bodyguards and lifting things out of people's closed packs. And I for one hope to god things stay that way, at least if pickpockets are going to remain a 0-karma guild.

Lastly, you made a comment about hoping to get steady work as a thief from a clan with a "grim" reputation. This is mainly from my own personal experience, but I think the idea that every clan or clan leader has some laundry list of items they need stolen and will have constant work for a thief is a bit of a misconception. It should be fortunate for a thief to get contract work from a large organization, not expected as a guarantee. I also imagine that clans will turn first to thieves that 1) they know and trust, or 2) already have built reputations for themselves, when they need this kind of work. I've seen so many PCs who approached people and made terribly unsubtle attempts at subtle overtures to indicate they were shady, and to me that almost disqualifies them right there. I don't think you should go around admitting or blatantly hinting you're a shady figure (maybe in Tuluk.) The best thief is a thief that no one suspects. But that's just my own opinion.

A better way to get an "in" with a clan might be to join as some other legitimate job (crafter, guard), and build up trust with your employer first. Initially you might suck at what they hired you for, but then you could let your employer know you have other talents which might come in handy. That's at least how I'd do it.

[Delirium]

I was going to write a long-winded point by point reply, but Jherlen summed up my thoughts nicely.

I never meant to imply that thieves could currently take things out of closed containers; I thought that was pretty well covered in the thread already.  I'm neutral on that issue, but I don't think it should be the province of any but the absolute masters.

Lastly, I can with complete honesty say that no, I would not have retired my character over the lack of a skill.  I stand by my statement that you are probably approaching the game from a far more code-heavy standpoint than is my personal taste; I won't judge whether that is good or bad, just point that out.  A character is not just its skill levels, a character is (or at least, should be) far more than that.  In the words of (I think) Kivan, "The only skill you need to play Armageddon is sirihish".

[jcarter]

This is just addressing the point about the 'dangers' of being a pickpocket.

Realistically (looking beyond the code and to the VNPC population), pickpocket is probably the safest and easiest job in the entire Known World that most people can get. First of all, the populations of Allanak and Tuluk, the two major cities, are enormous enough where it would be difficult to notice a pattern between thefts. There's no major news network (except for the Militia Network) that says to look out for this guy, he's a criminal.

Pickpockets only need a few 'sid each day to survive. If they grab a few coins from a couple of commoners, they're set. They might want to steal a bit more in case they have a rainy day or are saving up for new sandcloth clothes, but other than that they're pretty well set.

Now let's take a look at what someone else mentioned, the mercenary. I think just about everyone here has played in the Byn. Ignoring the shovelling shit part, it's still not that great of a life. You're fed crappy stew that's probably been sitting out for a couple of weeks. The cooks don't give a shit about sanitation, and if something drops into the food it's not like they're going to dump out the whole batch and make some more. They live in giant barracks with absolutely no privacy. People have sex, fight, and probably get things stolen from them in there.

Now you have work. As a runner, you spend most of the day getting the shit kicked out of you. If you're decent, it's getting the shit kicked out of you by troopers. If you're really good, it's getting the shit kicked out of you by your sergeant. After that, you have chores to do around the barracks. Cleaning the latrines, helping cook for the weekend, straightening up the barracks, and so on. You work from sun up to sun down, until you have the choice of either going to catch some rest or going out and seeing the rest of the world. You work nine out of the eleven days of the week, at which point you can go out on the town to spend what little money you've earned.

Finally, you've hit the jackpot. The big day has finally come, and you've made the rank of trooper. No more of this little kids shit, you're on the track to the big leagues. For the next few years, you enjoy the amazing life of CONTRACTS! Now those richy-rich aristocrat sergeants and lieutenants actually pay you. But then you realize it's not that different from the life of a runner. Instead of getting the piss knocked out of you by another Bynner, now it's by gith with real weapons and tarantulas with real fangs, and oh boy does that hurt. Instead of cleaning up the barracks, you get to spend hours upon hours sitting on the back of your kank, riding in the hot sun across miles and miles of boring desert. You've really struck it big. You also notice that every single runner after your class is incredibly stupid.

After a few years of service, you get that big contract. You see things that scare the shit out of you. Flying kanks that shoot lasers from their eyes. Things were so bad, over half of your unit got wiped out, including your sergeant. But not you. You learned, and you've decided to throw in the towel. You learned your lesson and want to retire to being a cook or something less dangerous. The pay's not as decent, but you'll take the cut in return for keeping your limbs. You go up to your lieutenant to resign (thumping your fist off your mighty chest first) and he says, 'Congratulations! You're the new sergeant!' You suddenly rethink quitting.

As a sergeant, oh man it's easy street from now on. You get to have all that 'sid and skip training. You can laugh at all the runners who have to shovel shit, and you can laugh even harder at all the troopers who make less than you. You're in charge of your old unit now, the one that was nearly wiped out. You go out on a recruiting spree after good yelling at by your lieutenant, who lets you know just how shitty you and your unit are and that he's thinking about just kicking all of you out. You go and frequent the local bars. It's your first time you actually got to spend some real time out and actually buy a drink. But wait, you're getting shit on by everyone else. Those noble guards, dressed up in their silks who work three days a week and draw a thousand a month, laugh at you and call you 'shitcloak', even though you wear an aba. The only women interested in you spit and curse more than you do. Even worse, they smell more than you do.

You manage to pick up a couple greens from the Gaj. You head back to the compound, only to find out that two of your runners have been arrested for possession of spice. The templar keeps demanding to speak to your lieutenant, and you know that the only thing the two runners did wrong was piss off a couple of Borsails. Now you have to reach into your pockets and bribe out your runners. You've already LOST money on your first day of the job!

You head back to supervise training and find out that there's a runner with a head cracked wide open. After countless hours of interrogating scared runners and reluctant troopers, you finally piece together exactly what happened. Turns out one of your troopers thought it would be a great idea to organize a big, mock-battle sparring event without telling you. Somehow, you wonder how these troopers who you used to work with could suddenly be so stupid.

After you take care of things, your lieutenant finds your mind and wants you to meet with him. He wants to see you so soon it was actually ten minutes ago. You rush over to meet him, and he chews you out once more. Inbetween babysitting sparring, recruiting new, even stupider runners, and keeping your troopers out of trouble, you haven't gotten a single contract. Your lieutenant makes sure you know this. He makes sure you know it so well that he teaches you how to read and tattoos "GET SOME CONTRACTS" onto your hands.

So you advertise. You spend money to get word around, and finally get a break. Some rich merchant wants you to go out and get him mantis meat. You wonder why the hell anyone would want to eat mantis meat, but rich people do stupid things so you agree. You spend the next two weeks drilling your troopers and runners. You struggle to quell any fights so that that they can learn to work together as a team. You rehearse small-unit tactics over and over again, making painfully sure everyone knows their job.

The day arrives, and you grab one of your least favorite troopers and dub him 'quartermaster'. He follows you around and is in charge of riding with all the water and supplies. You spent the day before with your least favorite trooper, inspecting every single piece of equipment. You made sure that the tears in the tent get fixed. You plug holes in waterskins, you make sure weapons are sharp and armor is fine, and you make sure there's no problems with the ropes or anything else. The skins are filled, the packs are loaded with stale bread. It's go time.

You rally up the troops. It takes two hours for people to figure out that they're late and finally arrive. You get things going and ride out to mantis valley and lead a successful mission. Except you got separated from your  unit. Somehow, you managed to wind up on the other side of the Known World. You try to avoid thinking about it, as the thought of magick makes your stomach churn. You tell your favorite trooper he's in charge and to lead the men home, and you'll meet back.

You spend the next week stumbling across the deserts. Your armor rips and tears, you've already lost ten stones of weight, and your weapons are chipped and in disrepair. You spot the glint of Allanak and finally make it. Just as you set foot into the city, you see the "GET MORE CONTRACTS" tattoo on your knuckles glowing. It's the lieutenant, and he wants to see you. After stumbling in to the office,  your lieutenant informs you that half of your unit died in your absence and now you need to go get more. He tells you how shitty of a sergeant you are, and that his grandmother did a better job of doing missions in Mantis Valley before they even HAD kanks. You hand over his share, and then stumble back to the barracks and pass out.

That is the life of a mercenary. Sorry, I love the Byn and got carried away.

[ale six]

Jherlen and Delerium summed up everything I wanted to say except for a few points, so I'll just list those. Consider your two posts quoted for agreement, even though I won't to save space.

1) You're a person first and a (guild/occupation) second. That's how I always like to play. Put another way, I like to use my character's skills to benefit her career, whatever that career is, rather than create a career to maximize use of her skillset. I make this point because....

2) In my mind, anyone who wants to be a professional, high-contract, high-risk pickpocket and go around trying to steal things from templars, nobility, and other well-to-do types has to be some sort of crazy. You could put in your background that your PC is a thrill-seeker, insane, or has a death wish, as long as you acknowledge any of this... but in a world like Zalanthas where a noble can buy your life for the cost of her shoes and a templar can incinerate you with fireballs of flaming doom, do you REALLY want to be in a profession where you have a very good possibility of pissing them off by trying to nick things from them? The money from your contract is worth nothing when you don't live to enjoy it. Basically I'm agreeing with Intrepid here that this sort of career should not be a pickpocket's first choice.

3) The pickpocket guild comes in handy in plenty of other jobs, many of which also let the PC live quite comfortably and have far less risk than being a full-time thief. Aides, for example, tend to live pretty well, and skills like listen, sneak, and hide are all nice for that job. Peek is also good for spying on what other people have, even if you don't want to necessarily take it. Steal is also good in assassinations. I once had a PC in my apartment and needed to have him killed, but knew his combat training was a bit beyond mine. After grabbing both weapons off his belt, though, there wasn't much he could do to me. Sap is another skill that sounds nifty but I never got to make much use of. Sleight of hand is always fun. The point is you can do a lot of things with the pickpocket guild that don't involve being Shady McQuickfingers and running around stealing from people will will retaliate by killing you.

4) If the uses of the steal skill are going to be expanded (which I'm neutral on, too), I'd like to see it come only at -very- high levels of skill, or maybe be a separate skill that branches off steal. Actually, this is a tangent, but I think that boosting the power of either the burglar or pickpocket guild, and then making the stronger one a karma role, might be the best solution. My main worry is going to sit in a tavern and finding my backpack empty later, and all the jewelry I was wearing gone, while some thief pats himself on the back for his awesome roleplay because he did a bunch of semotes that no one saw because he was hidden.

[The Jester]

I don't have much experience with thief classes, so I'll defer to other people who've posted there. But to me, expecting a 12-day PC to pull off miracles or even advanced feats is a bit unrealistic. If you can nick 30-sid daggers consistently without getting caught, I think at this point you're doing good. I think you may need to lower expectations a bit.

IMO, all but the most legendary pickpockets will not be able to go around pulling rings off of fingers and robbing nobles and templars with bodyguards and lifting things out of people's closed packs. And I for one hope to god things stay that way, at least if pickpockets are going to remain a 0-karma guild.

You're completely missing my point.  My point isn't that I can't ALREADY do cool things.  My point is that I'll never be able to do the things that I'd like to do (such as steal people's jewelry).  I'm not upset about being able to steal 30-sid daggers consistently.  What I'm upset about is that if I keep playing this character for another 100 days I still won't be able to do anything more than steal 30-sid daggers consistently.

Lastly, you made a comment about hoping to get steady work as a thief from a clan with a "grim" reputation. This is mainly from my own personal experience, but I think the idea that every clan or clan leader has some laundry list of items they need stolen and will have constant work for a thief is a bit of a misconception. It should be fortunate for a thief to get contract work from a large organization, not expected as a guarantee. I also imagine that clans will turn first to thieves that 1) they know and trust, or 2) already have built reputations for themselves, when they need this kind of work. I've seen so many PCs who approached people and made terribly unsubtle attempts at subtle overtures to indicate they were shady, and to me that almost disqualifies them right there. I don't think you should go around admitting or blatantly hinting you're a shady figure (maybe in Tuluk.) The best thief is a thief that no one suspects. But that's just my own opinion.

The point of this thread isn't to tell me what I'm doing wrong (you of little experience with thief classes).  The point is to tell me what I'm doing wrong and then tell me what I need to do in order to have fun.

A better way to get an "in" with a clan might be to join as some other legitimate job (crafter, guard), and build up trust with your employer first. Initially you might suck at what they hired you for, but then you could let your employer know you have other talents which might come in handy. That's at least how I'd do it.

I'm already in the process of doing this.  In my particular case, this process is unbearably boring because my employer completely ignores me and fails to assign me with even the most basic of tasks, therefore making it impossible for me to gain trust.  Perhaps this is more a problem with the clan rather than with my class, but nonetheless it's contributing to my frusturation.

[Jherlen]

You're completely missing my point.  My point isn't that I can't ALREADY do cool things.  My point is that I'll never be able to do the things that I'd like to do (such as steal people's jewelry).  I'm not upset about being able to steal 30-sid daggers consistently.  What I'm upset about is that if I keep playing this character for another 100 days I still won't be able to do anything more than steal 30-sid daggers consistently.

You're saying that you don't believe that by 100 days, your skills in steal and peek will be vastly superior to now, letting you pretty much have open buffet on anyone's items not in a closed container? Eventually you will get lucky, see something valuable to steal, and easily be able to grab it. This has happened to my characters and I've seen it happen to others. (edit to clarify: I've been and seen people be the victim of skilled thieves and it ain't pretty.)

The point of this thread isn't to tell me what I'm doing wrong (you of little experience with thief classes).  The point is to tell me what I'm doing wrong and then tell me what I need to do in order to have fun.

I don't see how my experience with thief classes has any direct bearing on the comment you quoted. I've seen plenty of thiefy PCs. I have been in position to hire some of them. I stated based on my own personal experience some of the things that clans may consider when thinking about hiring someone shady. None of that requires me to have played a thief myself. I think I did make a suggestion about what you could do in order to have fun when I noted other ways you could possibly get employment and work a way into using your skills. It's unfortunate the particular clan you wanted to work for doesn't seem to be working out, but this could be any number of things: they don't have room for new people, the leaders don't like you ICly, they have other PC(s) that already fulfill the role you want, etc. All of that doesn't sound directly related to your guild, as you noted.

[The (now angry) Jester]

Jherlen and Delerium summed up everything I wanted to say except for a few points, so I'll just list those. Consider your two posts quoted for agreement, even though I won't to save space.

Good to know where you stand in this impromptu arguement.  Unfortunately I didn't post this looking for one, I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

2) In my mind, anyone who wants to be a professional, high-contract, high-risk pickpocket and go around trying to steal things from templars, nobility, and other well-to-do types has to be some sort of crazy. You could put in your background that your PC is a thrill-seeker, insane, or has a death wish, as long as you acknowledge any of this... but in a world like Zalanthas where a noble can buy your life for the cost of her shoes and a templar can incinerate you with fireballs of flaming doom, do you REALLY want to be in a profession where you have a very good possibility of pissing them off by trying to nick things from them? The money from your contract is worth nothing when you don't live to enjoy it. Basically I'm agreeing with Intrepid here that this sort of career should not be a pickpocket's first choice.

Fine, then call me crazy.  I'd still like to do it, because I'd have fun doing it, and the documentation suggests that people that do this exist (thus vindicating my belief that my desire isn't due to disregard for role-play or  the gameworld).

3) The pickpocket guild comes in handy in plenty of other jobs, many of which also let the PC live quite comfortably and have far less risk than being a full-time thief. Aides, for example, tend to live pretty well, and skills like listen, sneak, and hide are all nice for that job. Peek is also good for spying on what other people have, even if you don't want to necessarily take it. Steal is also good in assassinations. I once had a PC in my apartment and needed to have him killed, but knew his combat training was a bit beyond mine. After grabbing both weapons off his belt, though, there wasn't much he could do to me. Sap is another skill that sounds nifty but I never got to make much use of. Sleight of hand is always fun. The point is you can do a lot of things with the pickpocket guild that don't involve being Shady McQuickfingers and running around stealing from people will will retaliate by killing you.

I don't like to play low-risk characters.

[marko]

... I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

All I can suggest is that you log your steal attempts send them in.  My own personal belief is based on what I've observed _second hand_ is that the watch command has significant reduced the effectiveness of the steal command.  Again, from my second hand point of view, I think it's gone too far in limiting the effectiveness of steal.  

Since my opinion is based entirely upon second hand observation it is probably inaccurate.  

So, I would say test out your steal skill and log everything.  Then send the logs in and annotate them with how you think the scene should have played out.  If your character has branched steal and is critically failing regularly then something is wrong - either you are stealing incorrectly or the code has gone beyond an extreme.

To the point talking about days played - that is irrelevant.  Steal is a single command.  Days played only indicate how long someone has been in the game it doesn't indicate how good at any given skill someone is.  So please, keep that out of any discussion.

---
Edited for some quick grammar and typos.  I shouldn't be typing tonight.  

[jhunter]

If you hate it that much, store it and get on with your life. Seriously, if you hate it so much it's pissing you off then ditch the damned pc and move on.
You seem to be upset about things that aren't codedly possible at the moment. Getting upset about it and going off on other people here isn't going to change it for you.
People have offered you advice and it appears you are either unwilling or unable to take it.

If I hate a pc that much...I move on. It's really just the best thing to do. We're all here to play the game and have fun aren't we?

[ThirdEye]

Go twink in the 'rinth!

[The (pacified) Jester]

You seem to be upset about things that aren't codedly possible at the moment.

Not entirely true.  Though I would like pickpockets to be capable of more codedly, that's really a derailment that I've continued to talk about only because people continually brought it up after I mentioned it the first time.

What I'm really upset about is two things.  One, my clan is boring.  And two, there don't seem to be any opportunities for a pickpocket to be a pickpocket.

And hearing people tell me that I shouldn't want to play a pickpocket that is in fact a pickpocket is only making me more upset.

As for your advice about retiring, what I decided was that I'd take a week off from the game, then come back with a fresh perspective, and if things were still boring me to tears then I would retire.  I just made this post as an afterthought because a few months ago I E-mailed the Mud account with some concerns about the pickpocket class and Sanvean replied.  One of the things she said was that I should make a post on the GDB asking for guidance from people who had more experience with the pickpocket guild.

Well, I made the post.  Big mistake.  

[jhunter]

And hearing people tell me that I shouldn't want to play a pickpocket that is in fact a pickpocket is only making me more upset.

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket? The things that you've mentioned are things that either:

A) You codedly can't do. (And even if it was codedly possible you aren't good enough yet by any means.)

B) Things that you cannot do -yet-.

It seems to me that you're a pickpocket...just not as good of one as you'd like to be.

As far as the clan goes...I've been stuck in clans that were no fun before. I either came up with an IC reason to bail out of it, with or without permission or figure out ways to take the initiative and make it more fun for yourself.

Start some shit with a clanmate....steal from your clan...steal from another clan...etc...
Stir things up.

[Arbonne]

Alright. Here's a few suggestions, but not necessarily for your particular case, Jester.

:arrow: Get a partner, join some kind of organization, that'll pair you up with those who might like to work with you upon certain targets. Not only does this offer RP, it'll make things that much more interesting with two or more working together.

:arrow: Don't necessarily need to steal from PCs when you start off. You'll most definitely stink when you first start a thief, as with most any guild. Have patience, yet at the same time, experience your character. Get him/her into some trouble, you don't necessarily need to steal to do that. Try other gamits, do performances that use your palm/slip, whatever. There's plenty of difference manners to both take advantage of your skills as well as enjoy, besides the typical steal from people.

:arrow: A pickpocket is ment to lift items. If you're completely bored, yet want to continue playing a pickpocket yet still at low skill levels, rp out stalking and even arranging how you might steal from someone without actually making the attempt. With your imagination, there's limitless ways to develop your PC, then when alls done, send in the log.  :wink:

[The Jester]

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket?

My pickpocket is a pickpocket.  I do pickpocket things.  That's why I don't want (and I said this in my very first post) for people to tell me I should be an aide.  That's all.

[jhunter]

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket?

My pickpocket is a pickpocket.  I do pickpocket things.  That's why I don't want (and I said this in my very first post) for people to tell me I should be an aide.  That's all.

Ahhh...I gotcha. I misunderstood what you were saying.

[ale six]

Good to know where you stand in this impromptu arguement.  Unfortunately I didn't post this looking for one, I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

That's kind of surprising, because your tone (to me and to other posters) has certainly been a little argumentative, or at least less than civil. I wasn't trying to argue, either. I was simply telling a few other people I liked what they wrote. I agree with what marko and jhunter have said, too.

Fine, then call me crazy.  I'd still like to do it, because I'd have fun doing it, and the documentation suggests that people that do this exist (thus vindicating my belief that my desire isn't due to disregard for role-play or  the gameworld).

This is just personal opinion, but the helpfiles for each guild saying how they can achieve employment should be taken with a salt shaker. The helps on all the mage guilds, for example, talk about who might employ mages. They describe water elementalists as highly employable as permanent parts of clans and Houses... which just doesn't happen. In the same vein I can't see there being a large supply of thieves running around and being permanently employed by Houses to steal from wealthy and powerful people in anywhere except Tuluk, where the practice is sanctioned.

I don't like to play low-risk characters.

Fair enough. You'll have to be very smart in order to live long enough to get the skills you seem to want, then.


People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

[The Jester]

People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

I have a communication disorder.  

[FightClub]

People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

I have a communication disorder.  

Join the club.

[Maxed Pickpocket]

My pickpocket has stolen jewels, bits of metal, and my personal favorite: I followed a guy from his house to the Gaj, stole his key, and then went back to his house.

Pickpockets have enormous potential. Just remember that people have to open containers eventually.

[Angela Christine]

If it is any consolation, making stealing more difficult means that there will probably be fewer pickpockets, which means less PC competition for you.  Cold comfort I'm sure, but not completely useless.  

Occasionally you get some dagger lifting bandits around, and after replacing their weapons a few times people start keeping their real or valuable weapons locked up, and only keeping cheap backup weapons on the belt.  The more practicing PC pickpockets there are, the more careful people get about keeping their valuables locked up.  Belts and pockets that can be closed become absurdly valuable.  I can't speak for everyone else, but if my PC hasn't been robbed in a while I get lax about locking things up, I leave stuff in my inventory and even leave my pack open.  If just a little is going missing at a time I may not even notice, ICly or OOCly.  So the code thinning out the competition can be good for the survivors.  

You just have to be one of those survivors.   :wink:


Angela Christine

[Tlaloc]

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

As an aside, I just want to add this:

Choosing to try and become a part of the Guild (or not) is your own character's choice. However, I think you are probably underestimating the advantages of joining The Guild, if this is all you think they do. Ultimately, everyone pays the Guild, in one way or another. Those that don't pay can often find themselves living a very "unlucky" life, or even find their lifespans shortened considerably.

[WarriorPoet]

I think the OP should read Tlaloc's above post very, very carefully. The Guild opens up a new dimension to -anyone- who deals with them. The disadvantages barely exist alongside the perks of being one of them.

Pickpockets never interested me, so that's all I've got. Hope the role picks up, though. Or maybe he can come bother me and I'll stick a knife in his stupid face and you can go play an fme.

-WP jokes.

[Larrath]

About stealing things your character normally shouldn't be able to, you should start making use of Hemotes and the Wish command, perhaps.

Code Select Expand


> Wish all I'm going to try and steal Joe's sapphire ring.  Would appreciate help.

> say (grinning on his way over, waving) Joe, you old piece of rotten gith shit!  How ya been?

> emote holds his hand out to ~joe, grinning.
> hemote tightens his fingers around %joe ring, slipping it off of ^joe hand as they shake hands.
> wish all Hey, I tried that steal now if the ring can be passed to me (with a suitable echo to Joe if needed).

> hemote extends his leg out to the side, tripping a grizzled, one-armed man that walks beside him.

> say (glaring at a grizzled, one-armed man as he stumbles into him) Hey, watch where the fuck you're going you stupid gith.

> change ldesc is here, brawling wildly.


I am generally siding with Jester here - I seriously believe that pickpockets should be able to steal more than they currently are.  There appears to be very little upwards growth for a pickpocket once they can steal more reliably - they can still only take the same things, those things being what other players consciously put in risk of being stolen unless they get lucky with newer players or timing when someone is opening their backpack and not closing it right away.

Pickpockets should not all work as aide.  Some pickpockets are professional pickpockets just like some assassins are professional assassins.  And aren't professional assassins the exact reason why a merchant can kill someone for the price of shoes?  Many rangers work as professional 'rangers' as hunters or raiders.  Many warriors work as professional warriors in the Byn or as House Guards or Militia personnel.  Many magickers work as professional magickers, selling their awesome powers.  Many assassins work as professional assassins, many Merchants work as professional merchants or crafters, and many burglars work as professional burglars, slipping through locked doors and raising hell.
And everyone can also do a job that has nothing to do with their coded skills, and it's possible to succeed and become very prominent in either way.
Why are Pickpockets the only ones that are left out on this?  A pickpocket can make a great aide, a nice spy... But why can't a Pickpocket be able to financially support himself using his ability to steal?  Why must a pickpocket be limited to crap items placed on belts or in the inventory or to practically exploit OOC oversights on behalf of other players to steal from their opened backpacks?  A professional ranger can make a crapload of money bringing back rare hides and materials when they get more experienced.  Why can't pickpockets start 'bringing back' rarer belongings such as jewelry, small pouches (even though tied to the ankle or wrist) and so on?

[spawnloser]

I do have to agree with the fact that pickpockets should be capable of stealing things they are not currently capable of stealing.  In real life, they can take your watch off your wrist without you noticing, why not on the mud?  Same for rings and earrings.  In another game I played, it was possible to steal the weapon from someone's hand as they're trying to kill you with it (a la The Beast taking the guy's gun in Kung Fu Hustle) and saw nothing wrong with it.  Granted, you'd have to be DAMN good at steal to do that without being spotted, but doing it without the person having the ability to stop you initially?  I see no problem with it.

As far as the OP, I'll also back up Tlaloc.  Hooking in with the Guild may open one's eyes to what they're really like as well as open up new avenues for one to explore.

[Hymwen]

I do have to agree with the fact that pickpockets should be capable of stealing things they are not currently capable of stealing.  In real life, they can take your watch off your wrist without you noticing, why not on the mud?  Same for rings and earrings.  In another game I played, it was possible to steal the weapon from someone's hand as they're trying to kill you with it (a la The Beast taking the guy's gun in Kung Fu Hustle) and saw nothing wrong with it.  Granted, you'd have to be DAMN good at steal to do that without being spotted, but doing it without the person having the ability to stop you initially?  I see no problem with it.

As far as the OP, I'll also back up Tlaloc.  Hooking in with the Guild may open one's eyes to what they're really like as well as open up new avenues for one to explore.

Opening people's containers should be possible for very very skilled thieves, but I'm not sure how I feel about stealing equipped items... while in theory and reality it's possible to steal someone's wristwatch or necklace or something, that requires a major feat of distraction that isn't codedly possible. You can't just walk up to someone and take their ring off without them noticing.

As for joining the Guild, you people make it sound so simple. First of all, let's remember the first thing that most people are told about the guild: "Don't look for them, they will find you if they need you". Not only is asking for the Guild quite dangerous, but also a bit unrealistic as most 'rinthers have only heard very vague rumors if anything at all. Also, there's the very good chance that the person you're suggesting this to isn't even a 'rinther, in which case joining the Guild is IMO not even an option to be considered. Also remember that of all clans, the Guild is probably the one that goes through the most and longest periods of inactivity and player shortage.

[Maybe42or54]

If you are actively trying to get into the guild, you might jump an email to the Clan Imms and say that you've been trying to get in, but havn't found any. Can they find me?

[ale six]

(Disclaimer: I haven't played a thief since the new watch code changes, so I don't know what those guilds are like now. But I have played a pickpocket and a burglar both, and both of them would have easily been able to make a living off of their skills alone if necessary. Easily.)

I think saying a pickpocket can't support herself by stealing things is simply wrong. It's vastly understating their skill. A good pickpocket can wipe clean everything in your inventory and any unclosable container without breaking a sweat. I've seen some of them steal expensive daggers out of wristsheaths my character was wearing, which to me seemed silly enough, and that ought to still be easier than pulling a ring off your finger or a bracelet off your wrist. When you account for the haggle skill, I can almost guarantee that a career pickpocket will make enough money to live on and probably even rent a decent sized apartment off her income, too. (I STILL don't think most sane people would want to be career thieves by choice in the face of safer ways to gain money.)

I recognize it's rarely used, but picks have a way to steal equipped items already: the sap skill. Planning a hit like that would take a bit of time, preparation, and risk, but ultimately I'd prefer that to letting thieves have open buffet on people's jewelery. I really don't think they need more ability to swipe things.

Basically, I would rather make it hard on thief guilds and force them to be smart than make it easier on them and watch everything that a PC doesn't have glued onto their person disappear as they sit in taverns.

[Aldiel]

They do for the RP aspect of it, but they do nothing to the fact that trying to steal anything that weighs more than a bone dagger or a glow crystal seems impossible (at least for me so far), and stealing even the lightest of items with an AI-agility PC has a failure rate of at least 20-30% for me.

I would think that stealing anything larger than a small item in RL would be pretty hard.  I would assume trying to steal the armor off someone's back would be quite a trick.  I haven't played a pickpocket with the new peek implemented, but I trust in the immortal's decisions, and the new way just seems way more realistic, so I like it.  I also have very little sympathy for code freaks.

[The Jester]

As for joining the Guild, you people make it sound so simple. First of all, let's remember the first thing that most people are told about the guild: "Don't look for them, they will find you if they need you". Not only is asking for the Guild quite dangerous, but also a bit unrealistic as most 'rinthers have only heard very vague rumors if anything at all. Also, there's the very good chance that the person you're suggesting this to isn't even a 'rinther, in which case joining the Guild is IMO not even an option to be considered. Also remember that of all clans, the Guild is probably the one that goes through the most and longest periods of inactivity and player shortage.

Well, I've already found the Guild, and they basically said that they wanted me.  One of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one, and I don't really want people to see me associating with them too much, since it would give the game away, and besides I don't even LIKE 'rinthers.

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

[Hymwen]

Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?

The thought of a non-'rinther even entering the 'rinth is in most cases absurd, unless the PC has a very good reason to.

(edited to add some more)

I've had a Guild PC. I don't know if there's a different leader now, or how things are being handled, but unless you have something very important that they want, I can't imagine why they would ask you to join. I don't know anything about your PC or what the Guild is doing these days, but them asking a non-'rinther to join seems crazy unless you have something special that only you can give them. And think about it from your PC's point of view. Take yourself as an example, think of the absolutely worst place in your country. The poorest, dirtiest slum. Now imagine it ten times worse, with plague in the streets and people fighting and killing constantly. Would your character even consider going there, let alone associate with a gang from that place?

[palomar]

The thought of a non-'rinther even entering the 'rinth is in most cases absurd, unless the PC has a very good reason to.

This does not mean you can't work for 'em anyway.
I'd say give it a try, The Jester, you'll probably have a lot fun. And you know, there are reasons to why they want a cut of your profits. Actually, I think it'd be silly if they didn't.

[Ghost]

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that? Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?

It depends.  I would suggest you to try your way in the game and observe it yourself.  The things about the clans are, you are always supposed to learn about them in the game, by yourself.  The Guild is for one, a secretive clan.  So things like who can join, who can not should be dealt in the game.

But since you met them and they want you, it looks like you will find your way in one way or another.  Maybe they will take you on some conditions, or maybe you will partly be one of them or maybe they will take you as one of their own.  But you should be the one to find which one is it.

[Folker]

Well, I've already found the Guild, and they basically said that they wanted me.  One of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one, and I don't really want people to see me associating with them too much, since it would give the game away, and besides I don't even LIKE 'rinthers.

I do not have experience with the Guild itself, but I do have some idea of what clans do in Armageddon. The clans, the guild included, are not there to exploit your character. They are there to give a starting mingling platform for your character to participate in the storyline of Armageddon itself. In other words, they're there to facilitate your roleplay, which sometimes ... involves exploitation (just one side of a roleplay). But in the end, I'm certain they'll help your character more then hurt it, not because they like your character, or even want to help you. But because that's what the clans are all about. They'll help you get involved, aswell as offer some amount of influence and safety net. And while I doubt the only thing they want is your coin, because if they do, they'll probably be the most consequenceless clan in the game, except maybe Byn.

I can tell you right now, that some of my characters have pulled off their nasty plans from people after learning their guild conencted.

[Boggis]

WellOne of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one

Thief-barons that wanted to take your money? Refusing entry or refusing to deal with them? I'm not sure that you quite get what the Guild is and just what a powerful and downright scary organisation you're dealing with. As the docs say the Guild "demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners and other organisations", that it's "reach seems to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business" and that "it is Allanak's largest and undisputed organised crime mob". And you think you can just say "no" to these people? If you're some local thief or business and the mafia comes along saying that they want a piece of your action and in return you get to keep on breathing nice and regular do you say no? Think of it something like Bill the Butcher in that movie Gangs of New York. -Everyboy- paid their quarter up to him because if you didn't you'd wind up dead in an alley. Would you have the balls to say "no" to Bill the Butcher? The Guild can be seen to be like this. When they say they want a quarter of your earnings it's not exactly a polite request that you can opt out if it aggrieves you too much. You can choose not to pay of course... might be a quick solution to the retire or not retire question.

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

I played in the Guild for over 2 RL years with one character and it's a great place to play a wide variety of shady roles from alley thug to shadowy informant. If you have something to offer the Guild then you can work with them or for them. There'll generally be mostly 'rinthers in the Guild but not exclusively so. There's plenty of ways that somebody can work for the Guild. They're not going to lay out everything they do as soon as they meet you. Suffice to say that they have numerous interests and if you do well in your initial tasks then you might be given some more responsibility. If you don't like 'rinthers or you don't want anything to do with the Guild then that's fine but you'll still be paying up if they want it.

[marko]

I played in the Guild many years ago.

The Guild can, in my experience, be an amazing organization or a really crappy one.  Basically, it's like any other clan in the game in that it depends entirely upon the PCs that are involved in it.

Sometimes it is a bunch of yahoos who act like chipped 'sid toughs and sometimes it has professionals.  

Do non-'rinthers joing the Guild?  Absolutely.  Many within the Guild structure are non-'rinthers (or were).

If you don't like the characters that are in the Guild currently then it may not be the organization for you at this time.  Of course, since the Guild has its interests to watch out for, your character may (or may not) come into conflict with them because of this.

Good luck.

[Nidhogg]

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

I think I have a fair bit of experience with the Guild, though it may be somewhat outdated as Zalanthas is also subject to evolution. I think the only requirement to suceed in the guild is the same requirement to suceed in any clan, the force or your personality or your willingness to be cooperative. Not liking rinthers while not a happy thing for your pc can be a very happy thing for you the player.  In fact if he really hates rinthers imagine how satisfying it will be when he's making a profit from them, rather than them making a profit from him, if he can suceed to that extent.

[HunterKiller]

Burglar and pickpocket won't typically do that well by themselves, imo.  They fight for shit and even long-lived characters won't do that well at all in combat.  I think you should focus on an interdependence with another clan, meaning pick one where you can offer something they don't have, at the same time providing you an umbrella in case things don't go your way (and they won't for a while).

I think thieves do better with friends.  A loner thief will get chased all over the map for stealing a torch or scarf (seen it happen).  Heh, there are always "IC reasons" for this to happen but in the end everyone knows that thief is alone and that they fight for shit anyways ...  If on the other hand the thief has three buff warriors standing behind him the thief's victims may decide the few sid or item isn't worth getting their ass handed to them and leave to fight another day.

In the end, if you have enough muscle you can be what you want to be.  You can take what you want, kill who you like.  Most organizations will prefer some okay warriors as opposed to a handful of "really good" thieves because the stronger you are, the more you can do - that's just the way it's always been.  The real need for thieves comes when your employer faces a formidable adversary - then the need develops to have things done passively, on the sly, on the DL, secretly.  :-)  These organizations tend to be the large ones, noble and merchant houses, templarate, etc.  Working on your own will tend to keep you out of the loop of those persons who might desperately need you so avoiding clans is not a very smart move.  Most will let you out after a certain time period, join on with one of those and let them protect you while you get better at ...  what you do.  :-)

- HK

[Intrepid]

The main problem here is that Jester wants to be a super-thief and isn't.

The answer to that is simple:

- Arm does not owe you a free meal.
- No one guaranteed you an easy existence as a pickpocket.
- There is no coded formula to become a legendary pickpocket.
- Arm does not owe you a legendary pickpocket.
- It is possible to play a legendary pickpocket.
- The odds of playing said legend are equal to what a legend should be-slim.
- Your playability ends where all the non-pickpockets' playability begins.
- Play a high-risk character or not.  But don't also complain about it here if you chose to.

I've read this thread from top to bottom, and what you're looking for here
is not advice--you want agreement.  You've chewed out every single
person who has offered advice that did not conform to your narrow vision
of what a pickpocket is, and this needs to stop immediately.  I was
sympathetic to your plight in the beginning, but the more I think about it,
the more I'm realizing that all you want to do is entreat the rest of the
playerbase for a license for your pc to do anything he pleases to them
and be thanked, just because he played a class called Pickpocket.  No
way, pal.  You're going to need to actually work for this one or find a new
angle in the game.

[Synthesis]

I second Intrepid and move for the thread to be locked, on grounds of its having moved from pickpockets in general into the IC-sensitive area of speculation on The Guild's activities.

[Morgenes]

Agreed.