I'm about to retire my pickpocket

[bloodfromstone]

I have only ever played a very, very short lived pickpocket back when I was first starting. I will say that the cities could use more random stealable items scattered about, coins especially. Crim-code, of course, could use some serious, serious work.

I would be hesitant to see pickpockets become more powerful than they were prior to the code change, though. About the same power level is fine, I had no beef with them before, but having suffered at the hands of a few twink thieves, I shudder to think about finding my pack empty every other day or my pants stolen every time I walk through a tavern. It is entirely possible that I just haven't had twink experiences with the other classes, but I've seen a lot more action from pickpockets in this regard. Maybe it's not fair to limit them because of this, or maybe it's selfish of me to think in these terms. I dunno, I'm just speaking from fairly limited experience.

I will say, however, if pickpockets can start stealing from closed containers, taking hammers off of peoples backs, etc, something should be in place to let individuals do something about it. Just as the crim-code obliterates newbie thieves, it protects experienced ones, when you stare the person who you know is milking you for all you're worth in the eyes and can't do anything to stop it. (Yes, I know PC law enforcement contacts, etc, etc, can be used, but this is not always possible for some character types and some playing times)

[Kalden]

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?

I've played two maxxed pickpockets with high agility...yes, you can never steal rings, steal from belts under cloaks, steal from people with NPC bodyguards(I tried...10 times? 20?), steal bracelets, ect. I know this. Anyone who's played a long-lived pickpocket knows this. Don't give people false hopes. People will always keep their good shit in closed bags. Yes, pickpockets can never open closed bags or, God forbid, slice them open and pull things out through that.

The problem that Jester is referring to is the one above - pickpockets are never a true threat to PCs. All the good shit is impossible to steal, even if you have maxxed steal. Unfortunately none of the templars really realized this (they sometimes suffer from the same misconceptions that Delirium does), and I did lose one of my characters because of it. I was ordered to steal a ring, and it was quite impossible.

On the other hand, if you roll a human or dwarf pickpocket with high strength, you can be a good mugger. I never dropped someone with one sap - my strength was never good enough. It's a damn hard to skill to train too.

Uhh, yes, it can. A pickpocket who has done weapons training can still be very dangerous. Will he be able to compete with a warrior of the same training? No.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'very dangerous'. A pickpocket who does weapons training for a long time can eventually beat down newbie burglars, assassins, rangers, and even warriors pretty well, yeah. I still wouldn't give pickpockets the false hope that they'll ever be really dangerous in combat. Then again, I probably didn't max my pickpockets' fighting skills.

I have PKed with the sap skill -- it's a stretch to call that "knife-work", but it can be a deadly skill.


Then again, maybe I'm just crazy and my pickpockets were a few points off from being maxxed. Maybe they can only get rings, bracelets, open bags, slip past NPC bodyguards (twinkishly maxxed in the guard skill, I'm sure) ect, when they max, which would be an interesting way to handle it. I was just at the point where I'd stopped failing completely. However, the evidence to the contrary:

1)I've never seen/heard of a ring being stolen.
2)Nobody with experience has really risen to contradict me.

All I know is that there A LOT of barriers in place which make it impossible to play the "contract" thief, and I've never figured out how to get past them.

[flurry]

More often than not, you'll get insta-caught because there's a guard one room away.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I don't know about now, with the changes to watch, but before pickpockets could get pretty darn good.  Scary good even.

[The Jester]

Really?  So you're saying it's a lifelong vocation to pit one's wits against better funded and magickally-augmented templars, nobles and merchants just for the hell of it?

Magickally-augmented?  Give me a break.

Sorry, I can't see someone risking their lives just because they're bored with their 9 to 5 merc job.

It's SO much safer to make a living as a mercenary, an undervalued warrior whose generally hired in instances where the house's permanent employees can't be risked.

Especially not a run-of-the-mill Joe Shmoe human who could potentially get a cushy job being Lord Fancypants' shadow for the rest of his natural life.

You seem to assume that a pickpocket has to work outside of the establishment.  Behold:

Pickpockets are masters of the art of stealing.

Typically, pickpockets work on their own, nicking whatever they can from targets passing by. However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.

Yes it's possible to play the character you describe.  But the documentation suggests it's also possible to play a very different sort of character, and that's what I want to do, and in fact it's basically what I created this character to do.

And he is the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject? Wink

Are you the all-knowing, all-seeing expert on the subject?  If so, please enlighten us and explain how a pickpocket can thrive while being a pickpocket.

Yes my reply was mainly as a joke, I'm not sure whether Kalden's experience is due to thoroughly exploring two fairly long-lived pickpocket characters or if it's due to thoroughly not getting two fairly long-lived pickpocket characters.  I'm waiting for somebody to say that he's wrong and that it's possible to thrive as a pickpocket and do exciting things, but so far all I'm getting is agreement.  I also got a PM from another player who had played a long-lived pickpocket, also agreeing that the pickpocket skill tree isn't as good as it should be.

I was hoping that somebody would post a suggestion that would make me realize that I was doing something wrong and I could enjoy the class, but I'm not seeing it yet.

[Intrepid]

So...templars are not magickally-augmented?  And you're trying to be a
legal thief.

It definitely sounds like a Tuluki-based thief is right up your alley.

As for the break, I'm sorry--I can't really give you that.  As for mercs not
being safer--who are you kidding?  Aren't you the one saying that one
mistake and you're in permanent danger?  Mercs can survive their
mistakes usually.  Usually.

[Kalden]

The one way that one used to be able to pick up good items was by shadowing people, waiting for them to open their containers, and then moving in. One had to be very careful to stop shadowing and hide immediately after, however, because, whether you failed or not, you're the only person around and you get "caught". It's also tricky to peek into the container and then steal the item in that small time.

With the watch skill, this is even more difficult, perhaps impossible. Good luck.

[The Jester]

Curse you.  Your ninja-editing is forcing me to double-post.

Pickpockets should have to be long-lived and well established before performing any 'miraculous' feats.  Thieves and other stealth characters should and do require patience, and lots of it.  Rangers, warriors, you don't see them performing "miraculous" feats until they've reached higher levels of playtime, and neither should pickpockets.  It quite honestly sounds to me as if you are being impatient and focusing a bit too much on the code.

Please understand that I'm not expecting my pickpocket to be a master thief already, and I won't expect it to be so in another 20 days.

But even a newbie warrior or ranger is capable of accomplishing the basic tasks their guild was created for.  For a pickpocket, this doesn't happen until about 5 days.  At 10 days, a warrior or ranger is capable of accomplishing quite a bit.  A pickpocket by contrast can't do anything nearly as exciting.  At 30 days, a warrior or ranger is probably beginning to shape into something that other players have a healthy respect for.  This isn't so with a pickpocket.  At 100 days, a warrior or ranger is a complete monster.  At this point, a pickpocket is no longer limited by their ability to succeed at the skills they are given, but limited by the fact that the skills themselves have such a limited utility.  This is the problem as I see it.

Enjoy developing your character, and watch them grow over time from a bumbling two-'sid pickpocket to the slickest thief this side of Allanak.

The slickest thief this side of Allanak would be able to steal your jewelry.  

And yes, I leave things (including 'sid!) in my pockets.

I bow down to your generosity.  If rangers couldn't kill someone with their archery skill unless they had their victims permission, you would have retired yours.

[jhunter]

Can't say, I've never played the pickpocket guild. Although, I've played a decent burglar who got by just fine picking pockets. I never really did see the point in playing the pickpocket guild when you can do pretty much the same with a burglar and -more- if you choose.

[Jherlen]

I don't have much experience with thief classes, so I'll defer to other people who've posted there. But to me, expecting a 12-day PC to pull off miracles or even advanced feats is a bit unrealistic. If you can nick 30-sid daggers consistently without getting caught, I think at this point you're doing good. I think you may need to lower expectations a bit.

IMO, all but the most legendary pickpockets will not be able to go around pulling rings off of fingers and robbing nobles and templars with bodyguards and lifting things out of people's closed packs. And I for one hope to god things stay that way, at least if pickpockets are going to remain a 0-karma guild.

Lastly, you made a comment about hoping to get steady work as a thief from a clan with a "grim" reputation. This is mainly from my own personal experience, but I think the idea that every clan or clan leader has some laundry list of items they need stolen and will have constant work for a thief is a bit of a misconception. It should be fortunate for a thief to get contract work from a large organization, not expected as a guarantee. I also imagine that clans will turn first to thieves that 1) they know and trust, or 2) already have built reputations for themselves, when they need this kind of work. I've seen so many PCs who approached people and made terribly unsubtle attempts at subtle overtures to indicate they were shady, and to me that almost disqualifies them right there. I don't think you should go around admitting or blatantly hinting you're a shady figure (maybe in Tuluk.) The best thief is a thief that no one suspects. But that's just my own opinion.

A better way to get an "in" with a clan might be to join as some other legitimate job (crafter, guard), and build up trust with your employer first. Initially you might suck at what they hired you for, but then you could let your employer know you have other talents which might come in handy. That's at least how I'd do it.

[Delirium]

I was going to write a long-winded point by point reply, but Jherlen summed up my thoughts nicely.

I never meant to imply that thieves could currently take things out of closed containers; I thought that was pretty well covered in the thread already.  I'm neutral on that issue, but I don't think it should be the province of any but the absolute masters.

Lastly, I can with complete honesty say that no, I would not have retired my character over the lack of a skill.  I stand by my statement that you are probably approaching the game from a far more code-heavy standpoint than is my personal taste; I won't judge whether that is good or bad, just point that out.  A character is not just its skill levels, a character is (or at least, should be) far more than that.  In the words of (I think) Kivan, "The only skill you need to play Armageddon is sirihish".

[jcarter]

This is just addressing the point about the 'dangers' of being a pickpocket.

Realistically (looking beyond the code and to the VNPC population), pickpocket is probably the safest and easiest job in the entire Known World that most people can get. First of all, the populations of Allanak and Tuluk, the two major cities, are enormous enough where it would be difficult to notice a pattern between thefts. There's no major news network (except for the Militia Network) that says to look out for this guy, he's a criminal.

Pickpockets only need a few 'sid each day to survive. If they grab a few coins from a couple of commoners, they're set. They might want to steal a bit more in case they have a rainy day or are saving up for new sandcloth clothes, but other than that they're pretty well set.

Now let's take a look at what someone else mentioned, the mercenary. I think just about everyone here has played in the Byn. Ignoring the shovelling shit part, it's still not that great of a life. You're fed crappy stew that's probably been sitting out for a couple of weeks. The cooks don't give a shit about sanitation, and if something drops into the food it's not like they're going to dump out the whole batch and make some more. They live in giant barracks with absolutely no privacy. People have sex, fight, and probably get things stolen from them in there.

Now you have work. As a runner, you spend most of the day getting the shit kicked out of you. If you're decent, it's getting the shit kicked out of you by troopers. If you're really good, it's getting the shit kicked out of you by your sergeant. After that, you have chores to do around the barracks. Cleaning the latrines, helping cook for the weekend, straightening up the barracks, and so on. You work from sun up to sun down, until you have the choice of either going to catch some rest or going out and seeing the rest of the world. You work nine out of the eleven days of the week, at which point you can go out on the town to spend what little money you've earned.

Finally, you've hit the jackpot. The big day has finally come, and you've made the rank of trooper. No more of this little kids shit, you're on the track to the big leagues. For the next few years, you enjoy the amazing life of CONTRACTS! Now those richy-rich aristocrat sergeants and lieutenants actually pay you. But then you realize it's not that different from the life of a runner. Instead of getting the piss knocked out of you by another Bynner, now it's by gith with real weapons and tarantulas with real fangs, and oh boy does that hurt. Instead of cleaning up the barracks, you get to spend hours upon hours sitting on the back of your kank, riding in the hot sun across miles and miles of boring desert. You've really struck it big. You also notice that every single runner after your class is incredibly stupid.

After a few years of service, you get that big contract. You see things that scare the shit out of you. Flying kanks that shoot lasers from their eyes. Things were so bad, over half of your unit got wiped out, including your sergeant. But not you. You learned, and you've decided to throw in the towel. You learned your lesson and want to retire to being a cook or something less dangerous. The pay's not as decent, but you'll take the cut in return for keeping your limbs. You go up to your lieutenant to resign (thumping your fist off your mighty chest first) and he says, 'Congratulations! You're the new sergeant!' You suddenly rethink quitting.

As a sergeant, oh man it's easy street from now on. You get to have all that 'sid and skip training. You can laugh at all the runners who have to shovel shit, and you can laugh even harder at all the troopers who make less than you. You're in charge of your old unit now, the one that was nearly wiped out. You go out on a recruiting spree after good yelling at by your lieutenant, who lets you know just how shitty you and your unit are and that he's thinking about just kicking all of you out. You go and frequent the local bars. It's your first time you actually got to spend some real time out and actually buy a drink. But wait, you're getting shit on by everyone else. Those noble guards, dressed up in their silks who work three days a week and draw a thousand a month, laugh at you and call you 'shitcloak', even though you wear an aba. The only women interested in you spit and curse more than you do. Even worse, they smell more than you do.

You manage to pick up a couple greens from the Gaj. You head back to the compound, only to find out that two of your runners have been arrested for possession of spice. The templar keeps demanding to speak to your lieutenant, and you know that the only thing the two runners did wrong was piss off a couple of Borsails. Now you have to reach into your pockets and bribe out your runners. You've already LOST money on your first day of the job!

You head back to supervise training and find out that there's a runner with a head cracked wide open. After countless hours of interrogating scared runners and reluctant troopers, you finally piece together exactly what happened. Turns out one of your troopers thought it would be a great idea to organize a big, mock-battle sparring event without telling you. Somehow, you wonder how these troopers who you used to work with could suddenly be so stupid.

After you take care of things, your lieutenant finds your mind and wants you to meet with him. He wants to see you so soon it was actually ten minutes ago. You rush over to meet him, and he chews you out once more. Inbetween babysitting sparring, recruiting new, even stupider runners, and keeping your troopers out of trouble, you haven't gotten a single contract. Your lieutenant makes sure you know this. He makes sure you know it so well that he teaches you how to read and tattoos "GET SOME CONTRACTS" onto your hands.

So you advertise. You spend money to get word around, and finally get a break. Some rich merchant wants you to go out and get him mantis meat. You wonder why the hell anyone would want to eat mantis meat, but rich people do stupid things so you agree. You spend the next two weeks drilling your troopers and runners. You struggle to quell any fights so that that they can learn to work together as a team. You rehearse small-unit tactics over and over again, making painfully sure everyone knows their job.

The day arrives, and you grab one of your least favorite troopers and dub him 'quartermaster'. He follows you around and is in charge of riding with all the water and supplies. You spent the day before with your least favorite trooper, inspecting every single piece of equipment. You made sure that the tears in the tent get fixed. You plug holes in waterskins, you make sure weapons are sharp and armor is fine, and you make sure there's no problems with the ropes or anything else. The skins are filled, the packs are loaded with stale bread. It's go time.

You rally up the troops. It takes two hours for people to figure out that they're late and finally arrive. You get things going and ride out to mantis valley and lead a successful mission. Except you got separated from your  unit. Somehow, you managed to wind up on the other side of the Known World. You try to avoid thinking about it, as the thought of magick makes your stomach churn. You tell your favorite trooper he's in charge and to lead the men home, and you'll meet back.

You spend the next week stumbling across the deserts. Your armor rips and tears, you've already lost ten stones of weight, and your weapons are chipped and in disrepair. You spot the glint of Allanak and finally make it. Just as you set foot into the city, you see the "GET MORE CONTRACTS" tattoo on your knuckles glowing. It's the lieutenant, and he wants to see you. After stumbling in to the office,  your lieutenant informs you that half of your unit died in your absence and now you need to go get more. He tells you how shitty of a sergeant you are, and that his grandmother did a better job of doing missions in Mantis Valley before they even HAD kanks. You hand over his share, and then stumble back to the barracks and pass out.

That is the life of a mercenary. Sorry, I love the Byn and got carried away.

[ale six]

Jherlen and Delerium summed up everything I wanted to say except for a few points, so I'll just list those. Consider your two posts quoted for agreement, even though I won't to save space.

1) You're a person first and a (guild/occupation) second. That's how I always like to play. Put another way, I like to use my character's skills to benefit her career, whatever that career is, rather than create a career to maximize use of her skillset. I make this point because....

2) In my mind, anyone who wants to be a professional, high-contract, high-risk pickpocket and go around trying to steal things from templars, nobility, and other well-to-do types has to be some sort of crazy. You could put in your background that your PC is a thrill-seeker, insane, or has a death wish, as long as you acknowledge any of this... but in a world like Zalanthas where a noble can buy your life for the cost of her shoes and a templar can incinerate you with fireballs of flaming doom, do you REALLY want to be in a profession where you have a very good possibility of pissing them off by trying to nick things from them? The money from your contract is worth nothing when you don't live to enjoy it. Basically I'm agreeing with Intrepid here that this sort of career should not be a pickpocket's first choice.

3) The pickpocket guild comes in handy in plenty of other jobs, many of which also let the PC live quite comfortably and have far less risk than being a full-time thief. Aides, for example, tend to live pretty well, and skills like listen, sneak, and hide are all nice for that job. Peek is also good for spying on what other people have, even if you don't want to necessarily take it. Steal is also good in assassinations. I once had a PC in my apartment and needed to have him killed, but knew his combat training was a bit beyond mine. After grabbing both weapons off his belt, though, there wasn't much he could do to me. Sap is another skill that sounds nifty but I never got to make much use of. Sleight of hand is always fun. The point is you can do a lot of things with the pickpocket guild that don't involve being Shady McQuickfingers and running around stealing from people will will retaliate by killing you.

4) If the uses of the steal skill are going to be expanded (which I'm neutral on, too), I'd like to see it come only at -very- high levels of skill, or maybe be a separate skill that branches off steal. Actually, this is a tangent, but I think that boosting the power of either the burglar or pickpocket guild, and then making the stronger one a karma role, might be the best solution. My main worry is going to sit in a tavern and finding my backpack empty later, and all the jewelry I was wearing gone, while some thief pats himself on the back for his awesome roleplay because he did a bunch of semotes that no one saw because he was hidden.

[The Jester]

I don't have much experience with thief classes, so I'll defer to other people who've posted there. But to me, expecting a 12-day PC to pull off miracles or even advanced feats is a bit unrealistic. If you can nick 30-sid daggers consistently without getting caught, I think at this point you're doing good. I think you may need to lower expectations a bit.

IMO, all but the most legendary pickpockets will not be able to go around pulling rings off of fingers and robbing nobles and templars with bodyguards and lifting things out of people's closed packs. And I for one hope to god things stay that way, at least if pickpockets are going to remain a 0-karma guild.

You're completely missing my point.  My point isn't that I can't ALREADY do cool things.  My point is that I'll never be able to do the things that I'd like to do (such as steal people's jewelry).  I'm not upset about being able to steal 30-sid daggers consistently.  What I'm upset about is that if I keep playing this character for another 100 days I still won't be able to do anything more than steal 30-sid daggers consistently.

Lastly, you made a comment about hoping to get steady work as a thief from a clan with a "grim" reputation. This is mainly from my own personal experience, but I think the idea that every clan or clan leader has some laundry list of items they need stolen and will have constant work for a thief is a bit of a misconception. It should be fortunate for a thief to get contract work from a large organization, not expected as a guarantee. I also imagine that clans will turn first to thieves that 1) they know and trust, or 2) already have built reputations for themselves, when they need this kind of work. I've seen so many PCs who approached people and made terribly unsubtle attempts at subtle overtures to indicate they were shady, and to me that almost disqualifies them right there. I don't think you should go around admitting or blatantly hinting you're a shady figure (maybe in Tuluk.) The best thief is a thief that no one suspects. But that's just my own opinion.

The point of this thread isn't to tell me what I'm doing wrong (you of little experience with thief classes).  The point is to tell me what I'm doing wrong and then tell me what I need to do in order to have fun.

A better way to get an "in" with a clan might be to join as some other legitimate job (crafter, guard), and build up trust with your employer first. Initially you might suck at what they hired you for, but then you could let your employer know you have other talents which might come in handy. That's at least how I'd do it.

I'm already in the process of doing this.  In my particular case, this process is unbearably boring because my employer completely ignores me and fails to assign me with even the most basic of tasks, therefore making it impossible for me to gain trust.  Perhaps this is more a problem with the clan rather than with my class, but nonetheless it's contributing to my frusturation.

[Jherlen]

You're completely missing my point.  My point isn't that I can't ALREADY do cool things.  My point is that I'll never be able to do the things that I'd like to do (such as steal people's jewelry).  I'm not upset about being able to steal 30-sid daggers consistently.  What I'm upset about is that if I keep playing this character for another 100 days I still won't be able to do anything more than steal 30-sid daggers consistently.

You're saying that you don't believe that by 100 days, your skills in steal and peek will be vastly superior to now, letting you pretty much have open buffet on anyone's items not in a closed container? Eventually you will get lucky, see something valuable to steal, and easily be able to grab it. This has happened to my characters and I've seen it happen to others. (edit to clarify: I've been and seen people be the victim of skilled thieves and it ain't pretty.)

The point of this thread isn't to tell me what I'm doing wrong (you of little experience with thief classes).  The point is to tell me what I'm doing wrong and then tell me what I need to do in order to have fun.

I don't see how my experience with thief classes has any direct bearing on the comment you quoted. I've seen plenty of thiefy PCs. I have been in position to hire some of them. I stated based on my own personal experience some of the things that clans may consider when thinking about hiring someone shady. None of that requires me to have played a thief myself. I think I did make a suggestion about what you could do in order to have fun when I noted other ways you could possibly get employment and work a way into using your skills. It's unfortunate the particular clan you wanted to work for doesn't seem to be working out, but this could be any number of things: they don't have room for new people, the leaders don't like you ICly, they have other PC(s) that already fulfill the role you want, etc. All of that doesn't sound directly related to your guild, as you noted.

[The (now angry) Jester]

Jherlen and Delerium summed up everything I wanted to say except for a few points, so I'll just list those. Consider your two posts quoted for agreement, even though I won't to save space.

Good to know where you stand in this impromptu arguement.  Unfortunately I didn't post this looking for one, I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

2) In my mind, anyone who wants to be a professional, high-contract, high-risk pickpocket and go around trying to steal things from templars, nobility, and other well-to-do types has to be some sort of crazy. You could put in your background that your PC is a thrill-seeker, insane, or has a death wish, as long as you acknowledge any of this... but in a world like Zalanthas where a noble can buy your life for the cost of her shoes and a templar can incinerate you with fireballs of flaming doom, do you REALLY want to be in a profession where you have a very good possibility of pissing them off by trying to nick things from them? The money from your contract is worth nothing when you don't live to enjoy it. Basically I'm agreeing with Intrepid here that this sort of career should not be a pickpocket's first choice.

Fine, then call me crazy.  I'd still like to do it, because I'd have fun doing it, and the documentation suggests that people that do this exist (thus vindicating my belief that my desire isn't due to disregard for role-play or  the gameworld).

3) The pickpocket guild comes in handy in plenty of other jobs, many of which also let the PC live quite comfortably and have far less risk than being a full-time thief. Aides, for example, tend to live pretty well, and skills like listen, sneak, and hide are all nice for that job. Peek is also good for spying on what other people have, even if you don't want to necessarily take it. Steal is also good in assassinations. I once had a PC in my apartment and needed to have him killed, but knew his combat training was a bit beyond mine. After grabbing both weapons off his belt, though, there wasn't much he could do to me. Sap is another skill that sounds nifty but I never got to make much use of. Sleight of hand is always fun. The point is you can do a lot of things with the pickpocket guild that don't involve being Shady McQuickfingers and running around stealing from people will will retaliate by killing you.

I don't like to play low-risk characters.

[marko]

... I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

All I can suggest is that you log your steal attempts send them in.  My own personal belief is based on what I've observed _second hand_ is that the watch command has significant reduced the effectiveness of the steal command.  Again, from my second hand point of view, I think it's gone too far in limiting the effectiveness of steal.  

Since my opinion is based entirely upon second hand observation it is probably inaccurate.  

So, I would say test out your steal skill and log everything.  Then send the logs in and annotate them with how you think the scene should have played out.  If your character has branched steal and is critically failing regularly then something is wrong - either you are stealing incorrectly or the code has gone beyond an extreme.

To the point talking about days played - that is irrelevant.  Steal is a single command.  Days played only indicate how long someone has been in the game it doesn't indicate how good at any given skill someone is.  So please, keep that out of any discussion.

---
Edited for some quick grammar and typos.  I shouldn't be typing tonight.  

[jhunter]

If you hate it that much, store it and get on with your life. Seriously, if you hate it so much it's pissing you off then ditch the damned pc and move on.
You seem to be upset about things that aren't codedly possible at the moment. Getting upset about it and going off on other people here isn't going to change it for you.
People have offered you advice and it appears you are either unwilling or unable to take it.

If I hate a pc that much...I move on. It's really just the best thing to do. We're all here to play the game and have fun aren't we?

[ThirdEye]

Go twink in the 'rinth!

[The (pacified) Jester]

You seem to be upset about things that aren't codedly possible at the moment.

Not entirely true.  Though I would like pickpockets to be capable of more codedly, that's really a derailment that I've continued to talk about only because people continually brought it up after I mentioned it the first time.

What I'm really upset about is two things.  One, my clan is boring.  And two, there don't seem to be any opportunities for a pickpocket to be a pickpocket.

And hearing people tell me that I shouldn't want to play a pickpocket that is in fact a pickpocket is only making me more upset.

As for your advice about retiring, what I decided was that I'd take a week off from the game, then come back with a fresh perspective, and if things were still boring me to tears then I would retire.  I just made this post as an afterthought because a few months ago I E-mailed the Mud account with some concerns about the pickpocket class and Sanvean replied.  One of the things she said was that I should make a post on the GDB asking for guidance from people who had more experience with the pickpocket guild.

Well, I made the post.  Big mistake.  

[jhunter]

And hearing people tell me that I shouldn't want to play a pickpocket that is in fact a pickpocket is only making me more upset.

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket? The things that you've mentioned are things that either:

A) You codedly can't do. (And even if it was codedly possible you aren't good enough yet by any means.)

B) Things that you cannot do -yet-.

It seems to me that you're a pickpocket...just not as good of one as you'd like to be.

As far as the clan goes...I've been stuck in clans that were no fun before. I either came up with an IC reason to bail out of it, with or without permission or figure out ways to take the initiative and make it more fun for yourself.

Start some shit with a clanmate....steal from your clan...steal from another clan...etc...
Stir things up.

[Arbonne]

Alright. Here's a few suggestions, but not necessarily for your particular case, Jester.

:arrow: Get a partner, join some kind of organization, that'll pair you up with those who might like to work with you upon certain targets. Not only does this offer RP, it'll make things that much more interesting with two or more working together.

:arrow: Don't necessarily need to steal from PCs when you start off. You'll most definitely stink when you first start a thief, as with most any guild. Have patience, yet at the same time, experience your character. Get him/her into some trouble, you don't necessarily need to steal to do that. Try other gamits, do performances that use your palm/slip, whatever. There's plenty of difference manners to both take advantage of your skills as well as enjoy, besides the typical steal from people.

:arrow: A pickpocket is ment to lift items. If you're completely bored, yet want to continue playing a pickpocket yet still at low skill levels, rp out stalking and even arranging how you might steal from someone without actually making the attempt. With your imagination, there's limitless ways to develop your PC, then when alls done, send in the log.  :wink:

[The Jester]

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket?

My pickpocket is a pickpocket.  I do pickpocket things.  That's why I don't want (and I said this in my very first post) for people to tell me I should be an aide.  That's all.

[jhunter]

That's what I'm not getting...how is it that your pickpocket is -not- a pickpocket?

My pickpocket is a pickpocket.  I do pickpocket things.  That's why I don't want (and I said this in my very first post) for people to tell me I should be an aide.  That's all.

Ahhh...I gotcha. I misunderstood what you were saying.

[ale six]

Good to know where you stand in this impromptu arguement.  Unfortunately I didn't post this looking for one, I made this post because I'm absolutely miserable playing this character and I wanted a little help evaluating my situation before I caved in and retired.

That's kind of surprising, because your tone (to me and to other posters) has certainly been a little argumentative, or at least less than civil. I wasn't trying to argue, either. I was simply telling a few other people I liked what they wrote. I agree with what marko and jhunter have said, too.

Fine, then call me crazy.  I'd still like to do it, because I'd have fun doing it, and the documentation suggests that people that do this exist (thus vindicating my belief that my desire isn't due to disregard for role-play or  the gameworld).

This is just personal opinion, but the helpfiles for each guild saying how they can achieve employment should be taken with a salt shaker. The helps on all the mage guilds, for example, talk about who might employ mages. They describe water elementalists as highly employable as permanent parts of clans and Houses... which just doesn't happen. In the same vein I can't see there being a large supply of thieves running around and being permanently employed by Houses to steal from wealthy and powerful people in anywhere except Tuluk, where the practice is sanctioned.

I don't like to play low-risk characters.

Fair enough. You'll have to be very smart in order to live long enough to get the skills you seem to want, then.


People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

[The Jester]

People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

I have a communication disorder.