Quick sandstorm poll. Yes or no.

[RunningMountain]

Poll says it all. Curious as to what the playerbase thinks.

[Many Faces]

Thus again proving that it takes all walks of code to make a good mud.

Good idea.

[moab]

I say yes only because if you could navigate in a "blinding" sandstorm it should be a skill, however, I believe that NO ONE should be able to navigate in a blinding sandstorm unless they are some how use magick.

The best tracker in the land can't see through "blinding."

[flurry]

Yes, absolutely.

If contact is a skill, and ride is a skill, then I think navigate should be a skill for sure.

It just seems like the Armageddon way to start out not so good at something and improve over time.  I can understand quitting out in the wilderness as a non-skill special ability.  But I definitely think navigating would be a good one to turn into a skill.   Even if rangers are the only ones who get the skill at all, it should be a skill, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

While, from a realism standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to make this into a skill (and you then become somewhat more marketable as a character), from a playability standpoint, this kind of sucks.

It could be sandstorming every time I login for a rl month, and I'm just SOL if I want to play with anyone at that point.

But, anyway, isn't this what a ranger is for?

[Sir Diealot]

No, davien, this is not what Rangers are for.

Rangers are for people who want the skillset of medium-high combat skills, and wilderness abilities.

The problem with that is that there -are- warriors, merchants, even certain magickers (Ruks/Whirans seem to fit quite nicely into that) who spend a LOT of time in the desert as well.  The -skillset- is different.. But there is no IC reason, or logical reason, why that person cannot learn to navigate a bit better.

Sure, let Rangers have a higher cap.. and/or start higher..  But that is -not- what Rangers are for.  A class is NOT a 100% forced way for your character to be..  It is simply a guidline of where the char has gone/will most likely continue to go in his/her life.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The problem with that is that there -are- warriors, merchants, even certain magickers (Ruks/Whirans seem to fit quite nicely into that) who spend a LOT of time in the desert as well.  The -skillset- is different.. But there is no IC reason, or logical reason, why that person cannot learn to navigate a bit better.

Neither is there any IC or logical reason why they wouldn't be able to learn how to treat their injuries, search for tracks, use a bow, crossbow, or sling, skin a kill, or spot hidden predators and hidden prey.

But they can't.  Because Arm is a class-based system.  You pick the class.  You get the skill-set.  You play the role.  It's a cycle that works quite well I think, but doesn't have any room for complaining about why your class doesn't get whatever skill it just so happens you want.  These complaints (if they were taken seriously, and thankfully I don't think they are) will only dismantle the system.

[Sir Diealot]

Theres a difference between a somewhat specialized skill like.. Learning how to set a bone, learning how to wrap a wound properly.. using a bow (which is difficult to do well) and other things you aren't 100% exposed to every day in your large desert landscape.  With 4-7 major towns (depending on what you call major)  really -really- spread out.

People are in the desert Every Day..  Eventually they're going to catch on a bit.  The class system shows that you've been focusing on specified skills, at least somewhat pidgon-holeing you, in order to not twink.

Navigation seems, to me, to be something most people could pick up.  Especially someone forced to deal with it a lot of the time.

Note:  There are city-based characters.. ones who never leave.. hence the low starting percentage.  Anyone -can- learn it, not everyone does.  Its like contact, its innate but it has to be practiced before you get good enough to be able to do anything useful with it.

[John]

People are in the desert Every Day..

Sure, and they're smart enough who know when to travel and when to hunker down in a safe spot. When travelling, they know where they'll be able to find safety between where they are and their final destination. They know the warning signs of a fierce storm so they can rush to safety. They know what provisions they'll need and get them before entering the desert.

All of that has nothing to do with code and everything with character (and sometimes player) knowledge.

Eventually they're going to catch on a bit.

A smart ranger says "we stay here in safety until the storm dies." That's what they can catch onto. If it weren't for rangers being able to quit anywhere I'd suggest getting rid of their ability to not get lost in blinding sandstorms.

Navigation seems, to me, to be something most people could pick up.  Especially someone forced to deal with it a lot of the time.

I'd say a fighting ability would be much more universal then walking around in the desert. So until the staff let all classes learn a  weapon skill, I don't think all classes should get walking around in a blinding sandstorm.

[spawnloser]

I voted yes, but only because then not EVERY ranger would be a perfect compass in the dessert...and maybe, MAYBE a subguild could get it at a low cap.

[Sir Diealot]

Sure, and they're smart enough who know when to travel and when to hunker down in a safe spot. When travelling, they know where they'll be able to find safety between where they are and their final destination. They know the warning signs of a fierce storm so they can rush to safety. They know what provisions they'll need and get them before entering the desert.

All of that has nothing to do with code and everything with character (and sometimes player) knowledge.




Neither do I, John.

I think I should be able to, however, scoot from Dune A to Cave B.. by taking a short trek.. without getting blown off course.

I also think sandstorms should drain hp/stun/sta by simply being in the same room as one, without proper equipment.

I also think that the thirst code is a bit too lenient in cities..

I also think that twinkage is annoying.  And running from Luirs to Tuluk in a sandstorm, even if the code supports it.. is Twinky.

I also think that the sandstorm-navigation code shouldn't work in -blinding- storms.. but, rather, when you step east, and oops.. sandstorm that you forgot to weather e and see is there.. you should be able to scoot to a safer place, and hunker down.  YOU DO NOT HUNKER DOWN IN THE OPEN.  THATS PART OF THE DEFINITION OF HUNKERING DOWN,

[Agent_137]

goddamnit, you people are going to turn me into a die-hard conservative when it comes to coding in new things.

i hate this idea. leave my game alone!!! it's fine!

[RunningMountain]

But they can't.  Because Arm is a class-based system.  You pick the class.  You get the skill-set.  You play the role.  It's a cycle that works quite well I think, but doesn't have any room for complaining about why your class doesn't get whatever skill it just so happens you want.  These complaints (if they were taken seriously, and thankfully I don't think they are) will only dismantle the system.

I think with enough roleplay and teaching, who can learn just about any skill or even spell on armageddon. So I've heard.

The point is that rangers are the only class that can navigate, whereas people who may very well be desert dwellers can get lost and accidentally ride their kank into the silt sea. Funny as it may sound. Read below.

Hypothetically speaking, would it not suck if there happened to a 30 day assassin who spent 10 years in the desert and just stumbled into the wrong storm at the wrong time and hit north 5 times and it took him south.

As it is now, this can happen. Unless the players somehow requests for his character to be able to navigate in storms because he's been out there for 10 years. Regardless, I think it'd be nice for it to be a skill. Even if rangers max it and are the best, at least let the other classes try to do it via a navigate skill.

[Wykydtronn]

I voted yes, but only because then not EVERY ranger would be a perfect compass in the dessert...and maybe, MAYBE a subguild could get it at a low cap.

Same reason here.

I wouldn't mind seeing nomad getting a very low caped version... because... well... they live in the fucking desert.

[Morgenes]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

[Aldiel]

No, davien, this is not what Rangers are for.

Rangers are for people who want the skillset of medium-high combat skills, and wilderness abilities.

The problem with that is that there -are- warriors, merchants, even certain magickers (Ruks/Whirans seem to fit quite nicely into that) who spend a LOT of time in the desert as well.  The -skillset- is different.. But there is no IC reason, or logical reason, why that person cannot learn to navigate a bit better.

Sure, let Rangers have a higher cap.. and/or start higher..  But that is -not- what Rangers are for.  A class is NOT a 100% forced way for your character to be..  It is simply a guidline of where the char has gone/will most likely continue to go in his/her life.

Calm down, bro.  I think he was just making the point that rangers don't go the wrong direction when blinded.

[Aldiel]

I voted yes, but only because then not EVERY ranger would be a perfect compass in the dessert...and maybe, MAYBE a subguild could get it at a low cap.

Amen.

[Aldiel]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

But what if we go with spawnloser's suggestion?  I really like his idea.

[Cenghiz]

As far as I know, with additions to the sandstorm code, it now starts weak, then strengthens in time, after the peak it fades slowly. Now we _do_ have a way to determine that a storm's coming.
Travel when you have to, but there will be storms. We cannot say rangers are a minority of the population, befriend one.. Or.. let me become the devil's advocate and offer you to find a proper mage's mind and ask him to be taken back to the city with magick for 300 coins. Don't think many mages will say "No, mundane.. Die ha ha ha!"

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think the intentions of this poll are misleading.  I voted yes on this poll, but only because I think sandstorm navigation should be a skill.  I don't think that anyone but a ranger should be ever have the ability to be even a little good at it.

I think with enough roleplay and teaching, who can learn just about any skill or even spell on armageddon. So I've heard.

But not everyone does.  That's why it's a class-based system.

Rangers are the desert-dwelling class.  If you want a play a desert dweller, then your best bet is to play a ranger.  Going one step forward, the obvious retort is that playing a ranger "every time" is boring.  My response would be that desert-dwelling isn't the be all and end all of the game.  If you're exasperated by this limitation, then I suggest you might find great reward by doing something other than desert dwelling.  Furthermore, classes aren't the be all and end all of the game either.  A class is merely there to support a concept.  A class is a selection of abilities and talents that help you greatly in one specific activity.  A class is not the core of your character.  Playing the same class twice does not mean you have to engage in the same activities or role-play.  In contrast, you should first decide what activities your character is going to spend the majority of his time engaging in, and then choose your class accordingly.

Hypothetically speaking, would it not suck if there happened to a 30 day assassin who spent 10 years in the desert and just stumbled into the wrong storm at the wrong time and hit north 5 times and it took him south.

If I were playing that assassin I would have asked for a class change before I had spent the first year navigating the desert.  On second thought, no, that's only what I'd advise another player suffering from this situation, since I myself would never suffered it.  At character creation I would have thought about what activities this character is going to do, I would have said to myself "I'm going to be spending ten years in the desert at some point" and then I would have forgoed the assassin class in favor of the ranger class.

[Desertman]

I would like this to be a skill...But a skill only rangers have.


I dont want rangers to start off perfect at it...I want those truly rugged hardass rangers who spend weeks at a time in the desert actually enduring the elements to be the experts on it, not the pc's who are rangers codedly but spend more time tavern sitting and working as JoeGuard for LadyFancyPants.

Pretty much I only want the rangers who actually are exposed to the sandstorms to get good at it....So make it a skill...and those rangers who do endure the elements will get good at it...those that dont...wont.

[Yokunama]

I voted yes, but only because then not EVERY ranger would be a perfect compass in the dessert...and maybe, MAYBE a subguild could get it at a low cap.

Just wanted to bring something up.

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (to feed herself).

If rangers already have the knowhow, what is the point in turning the ability into a skill?

[RunningMountain]

The point is that rangers, even if their background says they were born and raised in a city, can instantly move around in the most blinding, tremendous storms in the known world. A bit unreasonable in my opinion. No other class has an ability like this. Specifically where unique abilities are concerned, all other classes just get a 'skill' that another class doesn't.  

Here however, the ranger gets to do something that no one else can learn supposedly, because they are born with the inherent ability to know where they are at all times. Whereas a warrior can disarm because he gets the skill. And a ranger with years of practice could learn to disarm, depending on the circumstances.

[Xygax]

Interestingly, it is already currently coded as a skill (Tiernan did the fix for this a while ago, iirc).  It just happens to be a skill that only rangers get, and which doesn't show up in your list.  

Yay, skills.

-- X

[FightClub]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

Problem is more often than not, you don't have this choice.  Say you were playing a tribe, everyone wanted to be a warrior, or merchant.  Well you still have to go out and hunt, you still have to provide for the tribe.  But there aren't players there to do it.  Also we're lacking accountable vnpc npc's, that possibly would be able to do such, why aren't they guiding my hopless warrio bob the onslaughter through the blinding storm of skin ripping death?

[Agent_137]

let the VNPCs deal with the VNPCs, and the PCs deal with the PCs.

quite obviously, all your tribe's rangers are tasked out with other duties vital to tribal interests.

if it's such an issue, inform your clan immortal that it is, and perhaps your next tribe-mate will be encouraged to pick ranger class, or perhaps a NPC will be provided if you are important enough to the tribe.

[jstorrie]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

Morgenes!

You're encouraging guild-fishing!

[RunningMountain]

It makes no sense for a "desert" elf not to be able to navigate in a storm. Even if he doesn't know where he is at all times. Which is what exactly? Instinct? Psionic?

[Yokunama]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

Problem is more often than not, you don't have this choice.  Say you were playing a tribe, everyone wanted to be a warrior, or merchant.  Well you still have to go out and hunt, you still have to provide for the tribe.  But there aren't players there to do it.  Also we're lacking accountable vnpc npc's, that possibly would be able to do such, why aren't they guiding my hopless warrio bob the onslaughter through the blinding storm of skin ripping death?

Warrior Bob and merchant Joe, it'd be best for them to stay near the camp.

[Tamarin]

If a warrior is spending enough time out in the wastes as to adopt the ability to navigate storms as well as a ranger, then his warrior skills should deteriorate.  Most notably disarm, but also bash and kick since these skill are (mostly) designed for fighting humanoids.  Same goes for any other class who dwells a ton in the desert.  Merchant skills down.  Assassin skills down.  Burglary skills down.  Blah blah blah.

You want to spend all your time practicing desert travel?  Well tough shit...you wasted all that time that you could have spent doing other stuff, like keeping your primary skills up to date.

[jstorrie]

Tamarin, that is already covered by skills not going up.

I don't see any reason for skills to detoriate over time, unless characters are going senile?

[Tamarin]

Sure, but I'm of the mind that if you aren't practicing your skills on a regular basis, that they should actually diminish to a point.  I know the code doesn't account for this, yet it's a fully real element of skill mastery.

That warrior, once he has frigging mastered every conceivable battle skill, won't realistically maintain that level of prowess if he suddenly decides that he wants to learn to navigate the wastes.  

In terms of mechanics, he will maintain those levels, since the code doesn't account for lack of practice.  This, to me, is essentially the difference between rangers and other classes in terms of the storm navigation abilities.  They aren't crazy stupid fighters.  They can't craft a lot of stuff.  They're not the best at sneaking through cities.  All these things account for the time that's spent learning how to pass through a storm without getting lost.

Now of course, the argument against that is that the class doesn't designate profession.  Well, I'm sorry but you can't use that logic to give non-rangers the navigation skill while neglecting the fact that other things would suffer.  Navigating through a storm is, to me, about a lot more than just the storm.  It's about the terrain.  It's about the other things that live in that terrain, and how to avoid them (or use them to your advantage).  It's about a nascent familiarity with the physical, natural world.

Until the code is more dynamic to blurr the lines between classes and allow characters to do anything given time...I'm sorry.  Keep ranger skill to rangers only.

[Tamarin]

Furthermore...

I imagine that a lot of you are proponents of the school of thought that says certain parts of the world are not harsh and gritty enough.  Yet you want to make storms less dangerous by extending the ability to navigate them to classes beyond rangers?

Give me a break.  Honestly.

My suggestion:

Make medium level storms, which currently anyone can walk through, accessible only to rangers.

Make the crazy, blinding storms accessible to no one, including rangers.

[amoeba]

Make the crazy, blinding storms accessible to no one, including rangers.

Why?  No seriously, what does this achive other than give the "arm is not hash enough" types a warm and fuzzy?

[Tamarin]

Because it would remove the invulnerability that rangers currently enjoy in all storm scenarios (movementally speaking), yet it still keeps storms dangerous to the average zalanthan.

Another alternative would be to not force players into randomized movements, but instead make it somewhat like the drunk code, or the stubborn barbarian kank code.

Code Select Expand

A dune [NESW]
A storm rages here.  To the east is a city.

>east
You try to go east, but the storm prevents you from doing that.

>east

The city [NESW]
Yay!  You made it out of the sandstorm, which is to the west

[RunningMountain]

I'd like a more realistic system for seeing sandstorms coming and going.

I posted a real sandstorm up here once from Iraq or some shit, and it took like 10 minutes just to get to the guy who was filming it. When it got there it was nasty and you coudn't see anything, but he had plenty of time to go, oh shit, look at that sandstorm coming.

-R

[Tamarin]

I'll concur with that.  I'd like to see a much more organic sandstorm code, with very obvious echoes that tell you a storm is coming, where it is coming from, the severity of the storm, and a rough guage of how long before it gets there.  These echoes should be plainly obvious, though maybe rangers would be able to estimate the time before arrival better than other classes.  It also should sweep room by room, rather than over a whole zone.  Hopefully the recent ginka upgrades would make this more feasible?

[Sir Diealot]

Honestly, though, RM?  Not to argue, but to seriously discuss.. I agree with the ability to see them coming, but you have to ask.. how fast can you run, and how fast does the sandstorm move?  Can you outrun that giant blob of sand and wind..   Maybe if you're right next to Tuluk...  But, if you see it and you're in the middle of the Tablelands.. A ranger, now, can spam-walk to safety..  But, in reality, he'd get maybe a room (an entire league)  Away, before it caugh up to him.  So its really hard to keep sandstorms visible, and keep twinking from running rampant.

[RunningMountain]

Well Sir. The problem is you can walk right into a sandstorm. They tend to not move and stay in one area. If they slowly (over the span of 5 RL minutes per room) moved so you could sit and hunker down for 10 RL (approx 1 hour in game) minutes until it passes. Instead of waiting a RL hour or longer, it might not warrant as much attention as it has thus far by players.

-R

[Delirium]

>weather <direction>

Problem solved.

[Sir Diealot]

Quite a good system, RM.

And, Tamarin, weather-direction is annoying to have to type every single time you take a step.  I'm not -lazy-, but I can definitely see how that would get annoying after the first week or so of play.

[RunningMountain]

>weather <direction>

Problem solved.

Yeah it's so fun to do that every single room. If I could watch sky while I rode and got a message that a storm was raging far to the east then I would avoid riding that direction.

Gotta realize the desert dunes aren't that huge, and the horizons in most areas are easily visible and open to view.

[Sir Diealot]

watch <sky> would rule..  And solve all problems.  It takes up the watch 'slot'.. but you can still do just about anything else.  So, keep an eye on that elf.. or the weather.

[path]

I just wanted to say my piece, so here it be.

Yar.

Desert dwellers be fun says I, but the fun be in the difficulty, not in the badass facter. Living in the desert will show ye who the boss is. The desert, says I. And that's the way that things should be.

I voted 'no', because if the storm be blinding, ye should be wary of losing yer smooshy-soft eyeballs.

[jhunter]

I'll concur with that.  I'd like to see a much more organic sandstorm code, with very obvious echoes that tell you a storm is coming, where it is coming from, the severity of the storm, and a rough guage of how long before it gets there.  These echoes should be plainly obvious, though maybe rangers would be able to estimate the time before arrival better than other classes.  It also should sweep room by room, rather than over a whole zone.  Hopefully the recent ginka upgrades would make this more feasible?

I totally agree with this. It should be obvious when a sandstorm is coming long before it reaches you.

And I also agree with the sentiment about using "weather <direction>" it's a real OOC pain in the fucking ass to have to use it every single room in order to keep from walking into a sandstorm that you should be able to easily see anyway.  :roll:

[Wykydtronn]

I just wanted to say my piece, so here it be.

Yar.

Desert dwellers be fun says I, but the fun be in the difficulty, not in the badass facter. Living in the desert will show ye who the boss is. The desert, says I. And that's the way that things should be.

I voted 'no', because if the storm be blinding, ye should be wary of losing yer smooshy-soft eyeballs.

I thought the poll was just about the skill... not what type of sand storm the skill can be used.

In that case, making sand storm navigation a skill makes the desert for rangers a little harsher.  Which I wouldn't mind seeing.

[Bebop]

Once again the staff position on this is that the code is fine as is.  Rangers having this ability provides needed interaction between characters.  Find a ranger and make buds, he'll save you if you want to go in the desert.

What he said.  This is not used enough, instead of so many complaining that they can't do this and that in the wilderness make friends with a ranger.  I'd like to be able to bash and kick and all of those cool combat skills with my ranger, but I can't!  Rangers belong in the desert, they are a guild that is inately keen in this area.

If I want something fancy, or specially made, I go to a merchant, if I want some fighting power behind my group, I got to a warrior, if I want something sneaky arranged there are guilds for that.   Rangers are for the outdoors.  If you are not a ranger, you do not belong in sandstorms, you don't belong outdoors by yourself unless you think you can survive with the skills you have.  If you don't think you can survive with the skills you have, then here is an idea, don't go without a ranger!  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  Change based on the game, don't expect the game to change for you, just because you want to be able to go outside and be all self-reliant out there even though that's not the guild that you picked.

Sandstorms are designed to kill you if you don't know what you're doing.  And if you're not a ranger, you're going to get lost and they will indeed KILL you.  Don't complain about it, take some precaution, treat the game world by the reality that is true to the coded laws to the game.  They are not earth laws they are Zalanthan laws.  And Zalanthan rangers are able to find their way out of blinding sands by their innate sense of direction and how they are accustomed to hazardous desert travel.  It adds up.  Sometimes the winds pick up and you are screwed, that's the weather for you.  Go at your own risk.

I am personally tired of seeing people trying to make the game world less harsh so it is easy on their characters.  The game is easy enough if you use some common sense.  Sometimes you take risks, sometimes you don't.  And alot of the RP involves the desert, people go out with wagons like it's nothing, people don't want to get lost in sandstorms, they want to be able to magickally tell easier when a sandstorm is coming.  It's Zalanthas.  Part of the harsh reality of it, is that you live on a desert planet for the most part and the terrain if not the creatures who have adapted to it, will kill you.

Navigating through the desert is not a skill, it's something innate by the kind of character you choose to play just as innate as a magicker's element is within them, and a warriors potential to fight or a half-elf's connection with animals.  That's just the way the code works and thusly that's just the way the Zalanthan world works.

Take some precaution when you go out.  If you're going on a trip don't act like oh I'm just going for a short ride OOC, IC plan, take some extra food, a tent, water if you're going to be some where you will be at a strong risk for a blinding sandstorm.  Best of all, hire a ranger... a guide someone who can assist you in battle (maybe) If need be and guide you through terrain that your character may no nothing about, or someone who just is simply more used to traveling over rough terrain.  Use some preparation but being able to predict a sandstorm, especially if you are not a ranger is just ridiculous.

The only other guilds, I could understand being able to see through storms are magicker guilds like a rukkian or whiran being able to see through the sand and winds.  They are branches of these elements so it is slightly understanable, but that is up to the IMMs and how they see it fit as far as that goes.  But my post is mostly in reponse to other mundane character's abilities to navigate through storms.

[RunningMountain]

Rangers can kick via subguild, Bebop. They can also subdue via subguild. Heck there is one subguild that gives you both of those skills.

-R

[Bebop]

Rangers can kick via subguild, Bebop. They can also subdue via subguild. Heck there is one subguild that gives you both of those skills.

-R

I know that but the point I'm trying to make, is that unlike warriors they are not going to be as adept at fighting people or half as quickly in an inate way like warriors, and bash and starting out with some other skills like perry a ranger is not going to have.

[RunningMountain]

I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that rangers are probably more dangerous, in my opinion anyways. Especially outdoors. I just wanted to see how many people thought it would be cool for navigating to be a skill, but it's obviously not going to happen and the threads been derailed a lot into other tangeants and stuff.

[X-D]

I vote no.

I take the same stance to the question as Bebop.


Good post BTW.


Its true though. USE THE RANGERS FOLKS!

I play rangers often. And my rangers make damm sure to have at least one good warrior friend and one good city sneaky type friend.


Wanna know why? Because he can't do what they can...DUH.

[gfair]

The whole thing with sandstorms is that they deprive you of your usual senses of sight, sound, and if you aren't careful enough, your orientation. Most sandstorms should not be storms in which you want to go pathfinding, they should be storms where you find a lee or a rock and hunker down while the storm finishes.

The skill is actually you and your memory as a player. I've gotten lost before all number of times, including in sandstorms and at night in the game. Can't remember where I was, and lost my orientation. Should be the same for characters.