Stats and character creation

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you were playing a game of D&D, would you tell the GM to just assign your stats randomly?

Actually I did that once.  Random race and class too.  It turned out to be one of the most fun and the best-RPed campaign of D&D I've ever played.  (I ended up with a half-orc bard, in case anyone is interested)

Heh. Odd combination, but sounds like fun. I couldn't do that. But kudos to you.

To those who don't know: From what I gather, we're able to order as many or as few stats as we'd like to. In other words, we can either bypass it completely, or order 1, 2, 3, or 4 stats. An Immortal can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Twilight]

I'm really intrigued on how this will work with different stat ranges.  Say if a elf's strength varies by 7 points, but their intelligence by 12 and their endurance by 10.  If one assumes a proportional method, you get less bang for you buck by choosing a low point range stat over a high point range stat for your primary.  Eg, lets say it rolls a 4 out of 10 and applies it to a half-giants str (range 4) so you end up with two strength points due to randomness, thirty for race, and two for guild for 34 str.  Whereas if you had chosed endurance (range 10) you would have ended up with 4 for randomness, twenty for race and one for guild for a total for twenty five.  Not that I know actual numbers, but it would seem hard to implement something like this that wouldn't have at least some impact.

Overall though, I don't think it will matter much.  Even if stats did matter a whole lot (which usually, though not always, in my experience they don't except perhaps for a brand new character) you'd most likely end up just changing the average and a tighter spread, rather than getting a true power shift.

[Agent_137]

fine, when you see the noobs with all buff/lithe warriors and lithe/smart pickpockets, and the vets with intelligent/enduring everything, then you will RUE THE DAY.

[Marauder Moe]

Not to mention that just about every merchant, magicker, sorceror, and psionicist will take wisdom first...

[Maybe42or54]

They wouldn't be what they are if they aren't at least a little smarter than the other ones.

[Angela Christine]

I'd still prefer the infinite rerolls option.    Well, not infinite but as many as you can manage within the two hour reroll period.  Then the stats remain random and within the racial norms, but if you want to waste time rerolling over and over you can, and if you don't care you continue on your merry way.  I admit that when playing Baulder's Gate or similar games with infinite rerolls I am prone to spending 15-20 minutes rerolling until I get bored of doing the math, but the funny thing is that the total value of the roll I end up keeping usually isn't much higher than total value of the first roll.


In the end, nothing done during character creation bothers me all that much because character creation is an OOC process.  I want to understand it, and then decide if/how I'm going to use it.  Min-max to your heart's content, and then live with the consequences of those choices.  (A good DM will find ways to make your dump stats interesting, even if the charts say the penalties shouldn't affect you much.  If everyone in the group is using Charisma as a dump stat, that probably means that the referee isn't applying the effects negative charisma very well).




If I have a half-elven or elven ranger I'll probably pick strength as my first or second stat not because I want a super-strong character or want to use the very best bows, but because if your random rolls gives you below average strength for those races you may have trouble finding any bow at all that you can use.  A ranger that can not use -any- bow without an exhaustive world-wide search or a slow and expensive custom order is seriously disadvantaged.  This would also apply to elves or half-elves with the archer or hunter sub guilds, since archery would obviously be important to them as well.  If you couldn't use a bow, you probably wouldn't have become an archer in the first place.


Likewise, if I were playing a dwarven or half-giant merchant I would probably pick agility as my primary stat, because they are seriously at risk of being able to hold less than 5 items in their inventory at the same time if they happen to roll low for their races.  If you can't hold at least 5 items in your inventory at the same, then some crafting recipes will be impossible for you.  A fumble-fingered person is less likely to have become a craftsman in the first place.


It would also be pretty tempting to take wisdom as the primary stat for any mage character in hopes of squeezing out a few more mana points, and that could be a problem.  Maybe Sorcerers and Templars develop their abilities because they are particularly clever, but there is nothing at all to indicate that elementalists are any smarter than the general population.  Elementalists have some weird mystical connection with the elemental planes, and a dummy is just as likely to be cursed/blessed with that connection as a genius.  



Angela Christine

[Morgenes]

Other staff have covered this, and I'll go ahead and reiterate it.  Every attribute is valuable.  The new system does not do away with racial differences in attributes, it will be exactly the same.  We have come up with a way to give random rolls and order them according to your preference, instead of the whim of a random number calculator.

This is about giving you some say in what makes up your character.  I see this as no worse than letting you write your own descriptions.  If you want, I can work on a complete random character generator for you, if you're unhappy about this 'prioritization' crap.  I can see it now:

Welcome to Armageddon!

We'd ask you your character's name, but we'd rather just determine it randomly.
...Randomizing...
Your character's name is Hclnswe.
...Rolling Sex...
Sex: Female
...Rolling Race...
Race: Dwarf
...Rolling Guild...
Guild: Warrior
...Rolling Subguild...
Subguild: Guard
...Rolling Starting City...
Starting in: Allanak
...Rolling Stats...
Ewww...we didn't like those rolls, we'll reroll it for you....
...Rolling...
Ah crap, no good on the reroll...suiciding and starting over....
BEEP!

[Marauder Moe]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

EDIT: In fact... now I'm feeling rather inspired to actually write a random Armageddon character generator.

[Cale_Knight]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

So do it. Give a numeric value to each guild, race, subguild, and starting location, and then roll a few dice. Flip a coin for gender and whether you want to reroll. There are random name generators all over the internet. Easy enough to do.

Your post made me laugh out loud, Morgy.

[Marauder Moe]

I could go farther than that.  I think it'd be possible to randomly generate descriptions, backgrounds, and dwarven foci too!  :twisted:

[Hymwen]

Welcome to Armageddon! Your randomized dwarven foci is:

You must find a green-robed templar and infiltrate his latrine because the kank queen wants you to.

[flurry]

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

Since it's a roleplay mud, I really don't see the change as radical at all.  It just helps the stats fit the role.

[jhunter]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

EDIT: In fact... now I'm feeling rather inspired to actually write a random Armageddon character generator.

If you do...let me know. Because I'd use it, that'd be fun.  

[Baaadchar]

Hehehe, I sure could use it. Rerolled my perfectly fine stats into something terrible

[Agent_137]

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

Since it's a roleplay mud, I really don't see the change as radical at all.  It just helps the stats fit the role.

no, it helps the stats fit the guild, and it allows people to design roles based on stats instead of on personalities. how is this NOT power gaming?

before, if you needed a stat bad enough for a role, you talked to the immortals. Now we'll have every newb and vet power-gaming their stats. I know I will.

how many times has this been suggested over the ages by all the new players wanting this game to be like others? And how many times over the ages has the issue been settled against stat ordering? And how many roles has it ruined except for power-gamers?

Why are we turning on a dime now that it's easy to code? This has ALWAYS been a hot topic among the playerbase. Why are we being left out of the decision making completely? I don't mind coders coding up shit that they want to see, that's fine, but when it's a touchy subject, we should at least be consulted for our opinions.

[ThirdEye]

I say no, having random stats is part of what separates Arm from the other MUDs.

[John]

Hehehe, I sure could use it. Rerolled my perfectly fine stats into something terrible

A good reason to be very careful in rerolling.

One time I had bad stats and good stats and decided to reroll (hoping for something a bit more average), and instead got terrible stats and terrific stats, making my stats even more extreme.

Another time I rerolled and my stats remained relatively unchanged, except one which became even better, when I wanted it to worsen  :roll: But the Imms are always willing to step in and decrease your stats for you

no, it helps the stats fit the guild, and it allows people to design roles based on stats instead of on personalities. how is this NOT power gaming?

It allows the stats to back up the description and background. I'll take into consideration what sort of role I want in the game, his upbringing, personality quirks, etc. At the end of it I have a rough idea of his strength and how quickly he learns things. If I want him strong I'll put it towards the front, if I want him weak I'll put it towards the bottom.

That isn't powergaming, that's creating a character. Will people powergame with this new code? Sure. People can twink out on whatever they want. They can twink out on backstab. They can spam-X because they know that X branches leet skill Y. This just gives them another way in which to powergame their little hearts out.

Oh, by the way, people suicide their character for better stats. That's a fact.

And the imms react accordingly when they find out what little twinky is doing.

I know I will.

I think that's a real shame, and I hope as the novelty wears off you consider perhaps it would be more fun and interesting to create more varied characters.

Will there be a stat combo that is best for role X? Sure. People already do their darndest to play their best at role X. They give their characters no faults. They make the most perfect character they can. The better roleplayers have learnt to put quirks into their characters. Better roleplayers will learn to  not create the best stat combo in existence.

This has ALWAYS been a hot topic among the playerbase. Why are we being left out of the decision making completely?

I could say it's because the topic has been hased over so many times that the staff already know our position on it. But that's just a guess. For a real answer, e-mail the mud or write a post in the "Ask the Staff" forum.

I don't mind coders coding up shit that they want to see, that's fine, but when it's a touchy subject, we should at least be consulted for our opinions.

Here's the playerbases opinion:
* Some like it because the stats back up the character you create
* Others dislike it because they feel it will promote powergaming of stats and encourage people to always make "strong" types for fighting characters, because they know they can order the stats to allow it.

That's just off the top of my head. The issue has been rehashed so many times I've just stopped paying any attention most of the time. I seriously doubt the staff are ignorant of our opinions on this matter.

Also, I somehow doubt it's just the coders who discuss the code implementation. I imagine all the staff weigh in, with the Overlords having to give it a thumbs up.

[Anonymous]

That isn't powergaming, that's creating a character. Will people powergame with this new code? Sure. People can twink out on whatever they want. They can twink out on backstab. They can spam-X because they know that X branches leet skill Y. This just gives them another way in which to powergame their little hearts out.

I think I understand your point and to some degree I felt the same in the past.  I always thought, to some degree, some sort of stat weight system should be allowed where certain stats would get a bonus and others would get a proportionate deduction.  But the reality is that while it's completely reasonable for someone to want to play the buff warrior with high strength I'd rather that they special app for it because otherwise you'll never have characters who aren't exactly suited, statswise, for their class.  It's rare that people want to play the weak warrior and the current system, ungainly as it may or may not be, helps fill that void.

The biggest problem that I have with chargen and stats is one that's been discussed before, that your desc and stats can end up completely at odds which is just a bummer.  Nothing like having the sinewy, muscle-bound man who can't carry one of the two bags the willowy, lithe elven girl is carrying.

[Kalden]

Does this mean I should start RPing my low-wisdom characters as a bit slower?

I mean, if I actually did put wisdom as the last stat.

[Nao]

Are we still gonna have the reroll option after this..?

I mean, while it would suck not to have it in case you get a terrible roll, this would help the powergaming even more - you know that the best rol you can get goes into stat A and the last into stat B, so suddenly if you've got a nice overall roll already, the risk of getting something below average for stat A is really really small.

So this is decreasing the risk that you take with a reroll somewhat...

[spawnloser]

For everyone saying that, "Every warrior will have strength as highest, this sucks," I can tell you for certain that you are wrong.

Thank you, drive through.

[X-D]

I had been ignoring this thread, but, I have nothing better to do right now.


Booo!!!! stat ordering BAD.
I'm totally NOT looking forward to this.

Thats all.

[Morgenes]

If we solely went on if a piece of code could/would be abused by the playerbase to powergame (silent emotes anyone?) we would not have had near the number of new changes that went in recently.  We, the staff, are trusting you, the players, to roleplay your characters realistically and consistently within the game world.  The stat prioritization option will allow you guys more control over your character without allowing direct manipulation of the attributes.  When it comes down to it, even if you do get an absolutely incredible strength as a warrior, that newbie will still be layed low by a few day old warrior because ATTRIUBTES ARE ONLY A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

Just about any piece of code that's in Armageddon could be abused or used to powergame.  We do our best to balance it and make it fair, however ultimately it is up to you the players to take the tools we've given you and tell a story that's worth telling.  It's up to you if you care to take part in that or not.

[Coat of Arms]

How about something like... letting players choose between prioritizing their stats at the cost of their reroll option? So that you can either choose the order of rolls (or maybe just one or two of the rolls) or random stats with the option of a reroll?

[Cenghiz]

It's an advantage given to me by the staff and I'll totally use it. I will order my all four stats to fit best to my character every time.
I believe if it's not an elkran or a krathi, wisdom will always be the first stat for my magi.. For elkrans and krathi I love playing a bit dumb and bull-headed, but still wisdom will be in the second order.
Nearly all my warriors will have str as the first stat, maybe for a d-elf or elf I can make agility first and str last to play the real weak but real fast bastard with knives.
All my rangers will have agility as the first stat, then wisdom because I believe -not sure- wisdom affects sight like in D&D and they will have sharp eyes.
And I won't care if anyone calls this powergaming. I call this 'making the char more suitable to his guild history'.