Stats and character creation

[Coat of Arms]

I'm kinda tired of describing characters as strong or dextrous or something, and having them come out with below average in the appropriate stat... how about allowing us to pick one stat that will get the highest of the four rolls when we create a character? I don't see it as unbalanced, I think it would rather help, because as it is now, you have to ignore or work around your stats if they come out completely different than how you described a character. It's very hard and annoying to play a tall, brutish guy and have him come out with poor strength and below average endurance. I could play him as if he had a handicap or something, but I don't want to do that, it's not what I pictured when I created my character, so it makes me enjoy playing him less.

So what I'd like to see, is the option to choose one stat to emphasize on, it could happen in the same room where you pick your starting city (your stats are rolled after you pick a city), and that stat then automatically gets the highest one of your four rolls. Either that, or allow us to swap two stats around. I just find it stupid that something as important as your character's physical attributes are completely out of the player's influence. It forces us to either describe our characters vaguely, or play in a certain way that we didn't intend when creating the character, and I can't see anything good about either.

And no, 'reroll self' is not a solution, it's just a second chance for you to hope that your stats actually fit the character you created.

[Xygax]

Lots of other threads discussing this, and Morgenes has code implemented for the staff to experiment with that will at least allow you to designate your skill preference.  You may see something along those lines going in Real Soon Now, if everyone generally ends up being happy with the new functionality.

-- X

[Cyrian20]

Only thing that irks me is sometimes, just sometimes my favorite characters are the ones that totally turned out different. I had a warrior with ba str once and so he wielding daggers. Skill % makes a huge difference when it gets up there so it was a lot of fun, on the opposite hand there is always the great heros with ai everything. I worry that we wouldn't have a chance of getting that one in a million character with an option that lets you pick your stats.

Basically everyone will be the same 30 points (just picked a random number) divided how they want(most common system I have seen). I am sure it is fair, but part of my enjoyment  is that Zalanthas isn't fair.

Now I must go to work and hope I don't fall asleep on the way there. Have fun.

[path]

I still want it to be a random roll, just so as you can pick which order the randoms fall in.

So if strength is your priority, followed by agility, then endurance and then wisdom and you rolled super fab, fab, average jane and you poor bastard they'd fall out in your preferred order.

[moab]

I think there is a direct correlation between high-stats and which pc gets picked on by the wandering gith.  I really do.

Or, a inverse relationship between long-lived characters and high stats.

[John]

I think there is a direct correlation between high-stats and which pc gets picked on by the wandering gith.  I really do.

mwahahaha.

[Morgenes]

I still want it to be a random roll, just so as you can pick which order the randoms fall in.

So if strength is your priority, followed by agility, then endurance and then wisdom and you rolled super fab, fab, average jane and you poor bastard they'd fall out in your preferred order.

The pending system will allow you to do exactly that, you specify your priority 'agility endurance strength wisdom' and your attributes will be rolled and given that priority.  The rolls are still random, and it is possible to end up with stats that aren't that great.  There will still be the ability to reroll your character, so hopefully you should be able to get a lot closer to what you had in mind when you created your character.  

There are other modifiers that are added to your rolled attributes that could slightly change this, but it's nothing major.

As Xygax said, look for this in the coming weeks.

[Maybe42or54]

*drools profusely*

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

*drools profusely*

*does more drooling*

[Nao]

I'd prefer if you could only pick one or two stats for preferences..

Why? Cause you can pick the exact order in SOI, much like you described it and I never liked that system. I can see a lot of people picking endurance as their lowest and maybe agility as their highest stat, or whichever they think makes them get l337 soon no matter if it fits the character or not - I like some randomness.

Picking just one or two stats as preferred should be enough to make your big, beefy warrior not be a sickly cripple and work around those stats that don't fit at all...

And yes, my char with the worst stats lived the longest and the char with the perfect fighting stats was a merchant that I retired soon...  :?  Murphy's law.

[Marauder Moe]

Boo stat ordering!  :x


Sorry.  It's great that you guys are coding so much stuff, but I don't believe the pros of stat ordering outweigh the harm it will do for the game.  I've elaborated my reasons enough in other threads, though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If an option exists for you to bypass stat ordering, do you think that everyone will be happy, then?

[Nao]

If an option exists for you to bypass stat ordering, do you think that everyone will be happy, then?

Don't thin so... Like I said, that would lead to a lot of powergaming, exspecially if you can't just put a preference on one stat but give -all- off them an order...

And powergaming sucks a bit when you start to have disadvantages just because you're the one not doing it..
Actualy, this might not become too much of a problem with most of arms playerbase, just a bit more annoying than it already is. That would only be a small advantage, because even there is a lot of possible variation in the stat system, even if you pick out your best roll for strength or agi there's still a good chance to just have it above average or something. So as long as you don't make the range smaller, this should be cool...

Still, I'm for setting a priority on one stat only, so everyone that wants it can have their agile thief and warrior with good str and there will still be some randomness and it won't lad to every merchant/thief/warrior havingthe same order of stat priorities once everyone figures out which combo suits which class best.

[Marauder Moe]

If an option exists for you to bypass stat ordering, do you think that everyone will be happy, then?

I didn't say it would harm me, I think it would harm the game as a whole.

I'm not going to quit the game over it or anything.  It's not the first time I've disagreed with a game change either.  If it's put in, I'll even use it.  I just think it's a bad change for the game.

Not a huge deal, I just disagree with it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I can agree with either complete ordering or single-stat-prioritizing, but in either case, I am elated that they are giving some form of this a go.

[Halaster]

We discussed this at length about the 'powergaming' aspect of stat ordering.  We decided we're not worried about it and want to put it in (probably) for a couple of reasons.

One, people who are that obssessed with having their stats good are going to suicide characters when they don't get what they want (yes, it happens), anyway.

Two, people who don't care about stats won't care about this and can just ignore it.

Three, while stats play a role, they're not quite as important as you all think they are.  Or another way to put it - they each have their advantages that are all important.  You may think endurance is the least important and so organize it to the lowest - well, we all know it affects how many hps, stun you have - so do you really want that to be your lowest?  I won't get into the details of how each stat affects things, because you shouldn't know, and it doesn't matter as much as you think.  I mean, if a mekillot is eating you, your high str don't mean jack.  If five gith are wailing you from all directions, who cares if you're really really smart.  Get my point?  High-stat people die just as quickly and brutally as low-stat people.  Your stats won't save you.

Four, people want to play a taller, stronger guy and it sucks for them if their strength is "below average".  It doesn't fit their concept, and what's wrong with someone wanting to play a strong character?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Three, while stats play a role, they're not quite as important as you all think they are.  Or another way to put it - they each have their advantages that are all important.  You may think endurance is the least important and so organize it to the lowest - well, we all know it affects how many hps, stun you have - so do you really want that to be your lowest?  I won't get into the details of how each stat affects things, because you shouldn't know, and it doesn't matter as much as you think.  I mean, if a mekillot is eating you, your high str don't mean jack.  If five gith are wailing you from all directions, who cares if you're really really smart.  Get my point?  High-stat people die just as quickly and brutally as low-stat people.  Your stats won't save you.

Thank you, pal. But this proposed system allows you to make a character like the muscle-etched, brutish man (which, actually, has just been trademarked because I really like the way that looks and sounds), and have a decent chance to get stats that will at least somewhat reflect the idea that you want him to be buff. All that muscle might chop his agility in half and he might be about as smart as a half-giant's nutsack, but Lord, if he isn't muscle-etched, I just don't know what he is.

[Halaster]

the muscle-etched, brutish man

the brutish, muscle-etched man reads better, IMO

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, it was going to be the hulking, muscle-etched brute, which I like even better, but I wasn't sure I could get that one through chargen.

[Maybe42or54]

I love my endurance and Agility.

[Incognito]

I'd say that we keep the current system, if, in the new system, after choosing the sequence of stat preferences, you miss out on the chance to get a completely random AI on a stat which your pc might not use or did not expect!

i.e. for example, you pick an elven merchant and he lucks out with AI agility randomly -- I'm thinkin this might not be possible with the new system, coz it'd put more emphasis on the elven merchant PC's primary and secondary stats and possible put a negative effect on the third and forth stats.

I hope I was able to explain that correctly....

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, maybe we can have a choice of which system we use?
If we want to aim for a strong Pc, we'll take the new system.
If we want randomness to be glorified in our inability to lift a sword, then we can sue the current system?

[Morgenes]

I'd say that we keep the current system, if, in the new system, after choosing the sequence of stat preferences, you miss out on the chance to get a completely random AI on a stat which your pc might not use or did not expect!

i.e. for example, you pick an elven merchant and he lucks out with AI agility randomly -- I'm thinkin this might not be possible with the new system, coz it'd put more emphasis on the elven merchant PC's primary and secondary stats and possible put a negative effect on the third and forth stats.

I hope I was able to explain that correctly....

The system does not apply negative or positive modifiers to stats.  It simply makes 4 generic rolls and orders them in the priority order you specify.  I will look at making the system allow you to specify as many (or few) of these as you want, but it'll still use the same rolling system, just your priority choices will be randomized as well.

[LauraMars]

I am for high wisdom and casting glory!

[Angela Christine]

Just for clarity, the stat ordering would occur before the modifiers for age, race, size, and guild are applied, right?

So you could use stat ordering either in the same order that you think the modifiers push you anyway, to try to get extreme stats.  Or you could use the stat ordering in the reverse order that you think the modifiers apply to try to get well-rounded, average stats.  You could pick strength as your half-giants primary to try to get a super-strong guy, or pick strength as his lowest stat and wisdom as his highest stat to try to get more balanced stats.


Angela Christine

[Vanth]

Just for clarity, the stat ordering would occur before the modifiers for age, race, size, and guild are applied, right?

So you could use stat ordering either in the same order that you think the modifiers push you anyway, to try to get extreme stats.  Or you could use the stat ordering in the reverse order that you think the modifiers apply to try to get well-rounded, average stats.  You could pick strength as your half-giants primary to try to get a super-strong guy, or pick strength as his lowest stat and wisdom as his highest stat to try to get more balanced stats.


Angela Christine

Correct.

[flurry]

I'm happy to hear about the possible new system to give a little more control over stats.  

One added benefit (I hope) is that people might be more inclined to tie stats in with their roleplay.  I know there's been a few threads about that before.  For instance, if you have below average wisdom, how should you roleplay that?   I seem to remember some people feeling like they were going to stick to the concept regardless of the stats, even if it's contradictory to the stats.  I can sympathize with that -- but stats are supposed to be characteristics of your PC, no?  So it's kind of weird to look at them as separate from roleplay, isn't it?  

I think with more player control over stats during character creation, people will feel more like their stats are something they had some say in, and something integral to the character concept -- and so something that fits the roleplay of that concept better.

There was a great thread I saw over on the SoI board a couple months ago where an Immortal over there broke down each stat into the different levels, and said how he or she interpreted that level for that stat (e.g. if you have average strength for a human, you're capable of ... Whereas if you have AI strength, you're capable of ....)   I thought it was really neat.    Something like that would be cool to see here, I think, especially given an added measure of control over stats.

Anyway, thumbs up for the possible changes on the horizon.

[Aldiel]

Man, being able to customize your skills.  That sounds wicked.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Man, being able to customize your skills.  That sounds wicked.

Stats, stats. The skills ... well, that's one of those pipe dreams, man, pipe dreams ... although, actually, I just got a great idea...

[Cale_Knight]

I'm totally looking forward to this.

[Tamarin]

Will characters created prior to this change get the opportunity to reorder their stats?

[jhunter]

No offense intended to anyone...



BOO!!!


:cry:

[Cale_Knight]

Will characters created prior to this change get the opportunity to reorder their stats?

*twitch*

I know this isn't going to happen, but man. If I could flip just two stats on my current character...

Man.

[Maybe42or54]

If I had things that I could call stats. I politely refer to them as "damn it" every time I see those things.

[jstorrie]

I don't think I'll be able to resist the temptation to have the same stat ordering on every single character. I already have an idea of what I think is 'best' in concrete game terms and with the exception of disabled characters I'm not sure why I wouldn't go for it.

[Maybe42or54]

I love endurance.

[Tlaloc]

Will characters created prior to this change get the opportunity to reorder their stats?

Though this is just a guess at this time, and certainly not anything 100%, my guess will be 'no', and characters created prior to this change will just have to deal, and slowly die off.

[Agent_137]

boo stat ordering and boo breaking years of saying "no stat ordering."

Way to let all the twinks have exactly what they want. All the experienced vets know not to include obvious stats in descriptions, and if they -have- to have a stat for a concept (should be rare, make a character not a body), then they can deal with the mud account.

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

[jhunter]

boo stat ordering and boo breaking years of saying "no stat ordering."

Way to let all the twinks have exactly what they want. All the experienced vets know not to include obvious stats in descriptions, and if they -have- to have a stat for a concept (should be rare, make a character not a body), then they can deal with the mud account.

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

[Dakurus]

I seriously doubt that this is going to change the way the game is played. The stat rolls are the same, and you can still get the full range of stats. What stats do affect is fairly well spread, so if you get low rolls, no matter what stat you assign it to, you will suffer to some degree. Do I think with regards to some classes that we'll see similar stat ordering choices, in some cases yes, others no. It's amazing how many differing opinions players have about which stat they'd prefer and what they do. However, even with similar ordering, we'll still see different stats, depending on the rolls.

I'll just reiterate one of Halaster's points.

Three, while stats play a role, they're not quite as important as you all think they are. Or another way to put it - they each have their advantages that are all important. You may think endurance is the least important and so organize it to the lowest - well, we all know it affects how many hps, stun you have - so do you really want that to be your lowest? I won't get into the details of how each stat affects things, because you shouldn't know, and it doesn't matter as much as you think. I mean, if a mekillot is eating you, your high str don't mean jack. If five gith are wailing you from all directions, who cares if you're really really smart. Get my point? High-stat people die just as quickly and brutally as low-stat people. Your stats won't save you.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To all the no-stat-ordering-proponents:

If you were playing a game of D&D, would you tell the GM to just assign your stats randomly?

Please stop opposing game changes that offer more customization. We have staff that are geared towards keeping this game free of twinks and of twinkish code. Have faith that they will evaluate this new change and deal with it accordingly.

If it is not abusable, it is a positive change.

[jhunter]

To all the no-stat-ordering-proponents:

If you were playing a game of D&D, would you tell the GM to just assign your stats randomly?

Please stop opposing game changes that offer more customization. We have staff that are geared towards keeping this game free of twinks and of twinkish code. Have faith that they will evaluate this new change and deal with it accordingly.

If it is not abusable, it is a positive change.

I simply disagree that this isn't abusable. I think it is. And nothing will ever change my mind about it. I'm entitled to believe as I do just as you are entitled to believe as you do.

I'm not going to stop opposing it just because you want it in 7DV, that's absurd to even say that. It's one step closer to putting more focus on stats instead of the -character-.


We may as well do away with racial differences in stats because the -majority- of people are going to use stat ordering to get around the racial negatives, or lessen them. No argument from -anyone- is going to convince me otherwise.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You still didn't answer the question about D&D.

Still, ok. Oppose it. Fine.

I remember a long time ago, when we added some new sub-guilds, that folks complained that this seemed twinkable and that we should make do with what we had. Nobody says that now, or at least nobody that I've seen.

I once opposed change. I loved the old GBD and was irrate when I saw this new one. I, however, had to change my mind as I grew used to it. I now love this new GBD and wouldn't trade it in.

Maybe you're right. Hopefully you're not.

[jhunter]

You still didn't answer the question about D&D.

Still, ok. Oppose it. Fine.

I remember a long time ago, when we added some new sub-guilds, that folks complained that this seemed twinkable and that we should make do with what we had. Nobody says that now, or at least nobody that I've seen.

I once opposed change. I loved the old GBD and was irrate when I saw this new one. I, however, had to change my mind as I grew used to it. I now love this new GBD and wouldn't trade it in.

Maybe you're right. Hopefully you're not.

No, I don't care about stat ordering in D&D...because -that's- where I hackandslash.
I come to Arm to roleplay and not have to order my own stats optimally to keep the coded playing field level.
Now, I will have -no- choice if I want to be successful in comparision to others as far as the code is concerned.

Unless someone rolls all of their stats completely horrible...goodbye to the weak warriors and to rangers that use anything but the best of bows.

Goodbye to the weak combat based elves...our new elves (that are combat based are going to average around the strength of your average human) all because of stat ordering.

Hgs? Wow, they used to be kept in check by low agi and wis...but now...that can be lessened a bit with stat ordering. Or shit...if you wanted to make them kill other pcs in -one- hit instead of two...choose strength.

Stinks of powergaming.

[Intrepid]

Actually, some of the best D&D games I've played were those where we
rolled the stats in order and decided from there which classes were
allowable.  That made those more unusual classes like bards and paladins
special and rare.  It made a natural "18" a special and freakish thing,
rather than a stat people expected.

I understand why the imms are doing this, and feel bad that they feel they
have to do it now to keep people from making pc after pc until they have
their "leet uber fighter".  If it had been a change of heart based on
something other than twinks making existence difficult for them, I would
still have an objection to ordering stats--though perhaps not as strenuous
of one.

I still like the random rolls myself, and see no valid reasons to change
them other than giving the imms a much-deserved break from twinks.

[Maybe42or54]

Jhunter brings up a valid counter though. It is more twinkable than the way we have it now, simply because you can mess with it.

If a human wants to be smarter and faster, then alright. They'll be smarter, faster, and weaker.
If an elf wants to be stronger and faster, they'll be stronger, faster, more dumb.
If a half giant wants to be smarter, they'll be smarter.
If a human wants to be stronger, they'll be stronger.
If a merchant wants to be smarter and stringer.

All of those things can be trained IRL. Wouldn't you want to, to make your job easier? What is wrong with a merchant being smarter than a warrior? They are merchants.

Sometimes, I want my Pc to be strong. Sometimes, I want my Pc to be fast. Sometimes, I want my pc to be smarter. And then sometimes, I don't give a damn.

Which is why I want both systems! So sometimes I can list them. Other times, I can just go with it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Heh.

You do realize that stat ordering will simply put that astounding AI roll in your agility where you want it, instead of in your Wisdom, where the code decided it should fall, right?

I think you're just a tad paranoid.

But, best of luck.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We're keeping both systems, if I am to understand correctly.

[Maybe42or54]

Now, I just thought of it. I would also like a combination of the two. For the times that I want a strong pc, but don't know about the rest. I'll let the other three be random, but strength will get the best one.

[Marauder Moe]

If you were playing a game of D&D, would you tell the GM to just assign your stats randomly?

Actually I did that once.  Random race and class too.  It turned out to be one of the most fun and the best-RPed campaign of D&D I've ever played.  (I ended up with a half-orc bard, in case anyone is interested)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you were playing a game of D&D, would you tell the GM to just assign your stats randomly?

Actually I did that once.  Random race and class too.  It turned out to be one of the most fun and the best-RPed campaign of D&D I've ever played.  (I ended up with a half-orc bard, in case anyone is interested)

Heh. Odd combination, but sounds like fun. I couldn't do that. But kudos to you.

To those who don't know: From what I gather, we're able to order as many or as few stats as we'd like to. In other words, we can either bypass it completely, or order 1, 2, 3, or 4 stats. An Immortal can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Twilight]

I'm really intrigued on how this will work with different stat ranges.  Say if a elf's strength varies by 7 points, but their intelligence by 12 and their endurance by 10.  If one assumes a proportional method, you get less bang for you buck by choosing a low point range stat over a high point range stat for your primary.  Eg, lets say it rolls a 4 out of 10 and applies it to a half-giants str (range 4) so you end up with two strength points due to randomness, thirty for race, and two for guild for 34 str.  Whereas if you had chosed endurance (range 10) you would have ended up with 4 for randomness, twenty for race and one for guild for a total for twenty five.  Not that I know actual numbers, but it would seem hard to implement something like this that wouldn't have at least some impact.

Overall though, I don't think it will matter much.  Even if stats did matter a whole lot (which usually, though not always, in my experience they don't except perhaps for a brand new character) you'd most likely end up just changing the average and a tighter spread, rather than getting a true power shift.

[Agent_137]

fine, when you see the noobs with all buff/lithe warriors and lithe/smart pickpockets, and the vets with intelligent/enduring everything, then you will RUE THE DAY.

[Marauder Moe]

Not to mention that just about every merchant, magicker, sorceror, and psionicist will take wisdom first...

[Maybe42or54]

They wouldn't be what they are if they aren't at least a little smarter than the other ones.

[Angela Christine]

I'd still prefer the infinite rerolls option.    Well, not infinite but as many as you can manage within the two hour reroll period.  Then the stats remain random and within the racial norms, but if you want to waste time rerolling over and over you can, and if you don't care you continue on your merry way.  I admit that when playing Baulder's Gate or similar games with infinite rerolls I am prone to spending 15-20 minutes rerolling until I get bored of doing the math, but the funny thing is that the total value of the roll I end up keeping usually isn't much higher than total value of the first roll.


In the end, nothing done during character creation bothers me all that much because character creation is an OOC process.  I want to understand it, and then decide if/how I'm going to use it.  Min-max to your heart's content, and then live with the consequences of those choices.  (A good DM will find ways to make your dump stats interesting, even if the charts say the penalties shouldn't affect you much.  If everyone in the group is using Charisma as a dump stat, that probably means that the referee isn't applying the effects negative charisma very well).




If I have a half-elven or elven ranger I'll probably pick strength as my first or second stat not because I want a super-strong character or want to use the very best bows, but because if your random rolls gives you below average strength for those races you may have trouble finding any bow at all that you can use.  A ranger that can not use -any- bow without an exhaustive world-wide search or a slow and expensive custom order is seriously disadvantaged.  This would also apply to elves or half-elves with the archer or hunter sub guilds, since archery would obviously be important to them as well.  If you couldn't use a bow, you probably wouldn't have become an archer in the first place.


Likewise, if I were playing a dwarven or half-giant merchant I would probably pick agility as my primary stat, because they are seriously at risk of being able to hold less than 5 items in their inventory at the same time if they happen to roll low for their races.  If you can't hold at least 5 items in your inventory at the same, then some crafting recipes will be impossible for you.  A fumble-fingered person is less likely to have become a craftsman in the first place.


It would also be pretty tempting to take wisdom as the primary stat for any mage character in hopes of squeezing out a few more mana points, and that could be a problem.  Maybe Sorcerers and Templars develop their abilities because they are particularly clever, but there is nothing at all to indicate that elementalists are any smarter than the general population.  Elementalists have some weird mystical connection with the elemental planes, and a dummy is just as likely to be cursed/blessed with that connection as a genius.  



Angela Christine

[Morgenes]

Other staff have covered this, and I'll go ahead and reiterate it.  Every attribute is valuable.  The new system does not do away with racial differences in attributes, it will be exactly the same.  We have come up with a way to give random rolls and order them according to your preference, instead of the whim of a random number calculator.

This is about giving you some say in what makes up your character.  I see this as no worse than letting you write your own descriptions.  If you want, I can work on a complete random character generator for you, if you're unhappy about this 'prioritization' crap.  I can see it now:

Welcome to Armageddon!

We'd ask you your character's name, but we'd rather just determine it randomly.
...Randomizing...
Your character's name is Hclnswe.
...Rolling Sex...
Sex: Female
...Rolling Race...
Race: Dwarf
...Rolling Guild...
Guild: Warrior
...Rolling Subguild...
Subguild: Guard
...Rolling Starting City...
Starting in: Allanak
...Rolling Stats...
Ewww...we didn't like those rolls, we'll reroll it for you....
...Rolling...
Ah crap, no good on the reroll...suiciding and starting over....
BEEP!

[Marauder Moe]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

EDIT: In fact... now I'm feeling rather inspired to actually write a random Armageddon character generator.

[Cale_Knight]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

So do it. Give a numeric value to each guild, race, subguild, and starting location, and then roll a few dice. Flip a coin for gender and whether you want to reroll. There are random name generators all over the internet. Easy enough to do.

Your post made me laugh out loud, Morgy.

[Marauder Moe]

I could go farther than that.  I think it'd be possible to randomly generate descriptions, backgrounds, and dwarven foci too!  :twisted:

[Hymwen]

Welcome to Armageddon! Your randomized dwarven foci is:

You must find a green-robed templar and infiltrate his latrine because the kank queen wants you to.

[flurry]

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

Since it's a roleplay mud, I really don't see the change as radical at all.  It just helps the stats fit the role.

[jhunter]

I know you meant that as a joke, but that sounds really fun.  I'd totally play a  completely randomized character.   :wink:

EDIT: In fact... now I'm feeling rather inspired to actually write a random Armageddon character generator.

If you do...let me know. Because I'd use it, that'd be fun.  

[Baaadchar]

Hehehe, I sure could use it. Rerolled my perfectly fine stats into something terrible

[Agent_137]

New code is good, new code that radically changes the way the game is played is dangerous.

Since it's a roleplay mud, I really don't see the change as radical at all.  It just helps the stats fit the role.

no, it helps the stats fit the guild, and it allows people to design roles based on stats instead of on personalities. how is this NOT power gaming?

before, if you needed a stat bad enough for a role, you talked to the immortals. Now we'll have every newb and vet power-gaming their stats. I know I will.

how many times has this been suggested over the ages by all the new players wanting this game to be like others? And how many times over the ages has the issue been settled against stat ordering? And how many roles has it ruined except for power-gamers?

Why are we turning on a dime now that it's easy to code? This has ALWAYS been a hot topic among the playerbase. Why are we being left out of the decision making completely? I don't mind coders coding up shit that they want to see, that's fine, but when it's a touchy subject, we should at least be consulted for our opinions.

[ThirdEye]

I say no, having random stats is part of what separates Arm from the other MUDs.

[John]

Hehehe, I sure could use it. Rerolled my perfectly fine stats into something terrible

A good reason to be very careful in rerolling.

One time I had bad stats and good stats and decided to reroll (hoping for something a bit more average), and instead got terrible stats and terrific stats, making my stats even more extreme.

Another time I rerolled and my stats remained relatively unchanged, except one which became even better, when I wanted it to worsen  :roll: But the Imms are always willing to step in and decrease your stats for you

no, it helps the stats fit the guild, and it allows people to design roles based on stats instead of on personalities. how is this NOT power gaming?

It allows the stats to back up the description and background. I'll take into consideration what sort of role I want in the game, his upbringing, personality quirks, etc. At the end of it I have a rough idea of his strength and how quickly he learns things. If I want him strong I'll put it towards the front, if I want him weak I'll put it towards the bottom.

That isn't powergaming, that's creating a character. Will people powergame with this new code? Sure. People can twink out on whatever they want. They can twink out on backstab. They can spam-X because they know that X branches leet skill Y. This just gives them another way in which to powergame their little hearts out.

Oh, by the way, people suicide their character for better stats. That's a fact.

And the imms react accordingly when they find out what little twinky is doing.

I know I will.

I think that's a real shame, and I hope as the novelty wears off you consider perhaps it would be more fun and interesting to create more varied characters.

Will there be a stat combo that is best for role X? Sure. People already do their darndest to play their best at role X. They give their characters no faults. They make the most perfect character they can. The better roleplayers have learnt to put quirks into their characters. Better roleplayers will learn to  not create the best stat combo in existence.

This has ALWAYS been a hot topic among the playerbase. Why are we being left out of the decision making completely?

I could say it's because the topic has been hased over so many times that the staff already know our position on it. But that's just a guess. For a real answer, e-mail the mud or write a post in the "Ask the Staff" forum.

I don't mind coders coding up shit that they want to see, that's fine, but when it's a touchy subject, we should at least be consulted for our opinions.

Here's the playerbases opinion:
* Some like it because the stats back up the character you create
* Others dislike it because they feel it will promote powergaming of stats and encourage people to always make "strong" types for fighting characters, because they know they can order the stats to allow it.

That's just off the top of my head. The issue has been rehashed so many times I've just stopped paying any attention most of the time. I seriously doubt the staff are ignorant of our opinions on this matter.

Also, I somehow doubt it's just the coders who discuss the code implementation. I imagine all the staff weigh in, with the Overlords having to give it a thumbs up.

[Anonymous]

That isn't powergaming, that's creating a character. Will people powergame with this new code? Sure. People can twink out on whatever they want. They can twink out on backstab. They can spam-X because they know that X branches leet skill Y. This just gives them another way in which to powergame their little hearts out.

I think I understand your point and to some degree I felt the same in the past.  I always thought, to some degree, some sort of stat weight system should be allowed where certain stats would get a bonus and others would get a proportionate deduction.  But the reality is that while it's completely reasonable for someone to want to play the buff warrior with high strength I'd rather that they special app for it because otherwise you'll never have characters who aren't exactly suited, statswise, for their class.  It's rare that people want to play the weak warrior and the current system, ungainly as it may or may not be, helps fill that void.

The biggest problem that I have with chargen and stats is one that's been discussed before, that your desc and stats can end up completely at odds which is just a bummer.  Nothing like having the sinewy, muscle-bound man who can't carry one of the two bags the willowy, lithe elven girl is carrying.

[Kalden]

Does this mean I should start RPing my low-wisdom characters as a bit slower?

I mean, if I actually did put wisdom as the last stat.

[Nao]

Are we still gonna have the reroll option after this..?

I mean, while it would suck not to have it in case you get a terrible roll, this would help the powergaming even more - you know that the best rol you can get goes into stat A and the last into stat B, so suddenly if you've got a nice overall roll already, the risk of getting something below average for stat A is really really small.

So this is decreasing the risk that you take with a reroll somewhat...

[spawnloser]

For everyone saying that, "Every warrior will have strength as highest, this sucks," I can tell you for certain that you are wrong.

Thank you, drive through.

[X-D]

I had been ignoring this thread, but, I have nothing better to do right now.


Booo!!!! stat ordering BAD.
I'm totally NOT looking forward to this.

Thats all.

[Morgenes]

If we solely went on if a piece of code could/would be abused by the playerbase to powergame (silent emotes anyone?) we would not have had near the number of new changes that went in recently.  We, the staff, are trusting you, the players, to roleplay your characters realistically and consistently within the game world.  The stat prioritization option will allow you guys more control over your character without allowing direct manipulation of the attributes.  When it comes down to it, even if you do get an absolutely incredible strength as a warrior, that newbie will still be layed low by a few day old warrior because ATTRIUBTES ARE ONLY A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

Just about any piece of code that's in Armageddon could be abused or used to powergame.  We do our best to balance it and make it fair, however ultimately it is up to you the players to take the tools we've given you and tell a story that's worth telling.  It's up to you if you care to take part in that or not.

[Coat of Arms]

How about something like... letting players choose between prioritizing their stats at the cost of their reroll option? So that you can either choose the order of rolls (or maybe just one or two of the rolls) or random stats with the option of a reroll?

[Cenghiz]

It's an advantage given to me by the staff and I'll totally use it. I will order my all four stats to fit best to my character every time.
I believe if it's not an elkran or a krathi, wisdom will always be the first stat for my magi.. For elkrans and krathi I love playing a bit dumb and bull-headed, but still wisdom will be in the second order.
Nearly all my warriors will have str as the first stat, maybe for a d-elf or elf I can make agility first and str last to play the real weak but real fast bastard with knives.
All my rangers will have agility as the first stat, then wisdom because I believe -not sure- wisdom affects sight like in D&D and they will have sharp eyes.
And I won't care if anyone calls this powergaming. I call this 'making the char more suitable to his guild history'.

[Maybe42or54]

Ok. Whereas all my warriors will have endurance first. Mudsexxx requires endurance.

My rangers will have endurance.

My... everything will have endurance! Awesome.

[jstorrie]

Actually, I retract my complaint. Since everyone seems to be getting the powergamer stat order completely wrong, this will obviously give my characters a clear advantage over everyone else's.

What is the best powergaming stat order? I'm not telling!

[Agent_137]

beh!

john, i understand the advantages to this, and I don't always shoot down ideas that can be twinked. But I think this is one of those cases that the twink ability outweighs the benefits to a good RPer.

this is a huge bonus for twinks. This helps a good RPer a little, sometimes. That's a bad balance, in my opinion. Perhaps time will prove me wrong, since the issue seems to have already been decided.

I hope time proves me wrong.

[jhunter]

But I think this is one of those cases that the twink ability outweighs the benefits to a good RPer.

this is a huge bonus for twinks. This helps a good RPer a little, sometimes.