I Get no Respect!

[Synthesis]

(To avoid derailing the newbie thread.)

If I were raised my entire life thinking I was better than everyone else, and especially better than people from another city-state, I'd be pretty pissed off if a commoner from that place even had the audacity to bid against me for something I wanted.

And if I was a 'nakki noble, I wouldn't be all "subtle" about it and go out of my way to construct a post hoc rationalization for my lack of action.  I would send a servant over and tell that person to stop bidding, or else.

If I were a wealthy commoner from another city-state, bidding against a noble in his own city-state, I would immediately cease bidding and send someone over to apologize, to save my own ass.

Personally, I don't think people respect and fear nobles enough these days, probably because the turnover rate is so high (especially in Allanak).  These are people with enough 'sid to bury you alive in, with at least a small contingent of loyal, die-hard troops at their beck and call, and enough spare time to harbor the sort of grudges that get people skinned, magickally kept alive, and exposed to the sandstorm outside before they finally allow you to perish.

If you're a commoner, and you're sitting there snickering because you just one-upped a noble in his own city-state, you're wrong--and you ought to be dead wrong.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares?  We're based somewhat on Dune, right?  Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight?  It wasn't another noble, that's for sure.  Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.  

Obviously you're not going to be sparring Joe Nobody, the recently hired guardsman, but sparring a trusted senior man is certainly not out of the question.  I'm fairly sure, in all their years of education, most nobles have realized that they were not born with the gift of mastery of hand-to-hand combat, and that if they desire to master it, they'd better find someone who already has and can teach them.

To put it another way, noble family members cannot be the -only- people who are literate in their Houses.  Do you honestly think noble parents sit around and painstakingly teach their noble children how to read and write?  I seriously doubt it.  It's much more likely that there are certain very trusted literate slaves whose job is to keep records and teach the youngsters how to do it.  Now, if you will allow your children to learn something as important as how to read and write from a slave...why wouldn't you learn something as mundane as swordplay from a trusted employee of your House?  

Saying that sparring leaves you open to assassination is simply taking the code literally and disregarding the meta-reality of the gameworld, and personally, I'd consider anyone who assassinated a noble after their hitpoints were lowered during sparring to be a severe twink.  Just because you've lost X amount of hitpoints does -not- mean you're actually damaged, bleeding, or anything else of the sort.  You may be a little tired and sweaty after sparring, but you're certainly not going to be near-dead and thus an easy mark.

And as far as appearing "beneath" them is concerned, I think that's just a bunch of malarkey, quite frankly.  Everyone knows who's the boss in a noble House, nobody better than the boss himself.  I seriously doubt any noble would suffer wounded pride knowing that his guard captain can best him in a duel.  If that were the case, we'd have nobles fighting duels in the Arena in a constant attempt to prove themselves better than commoners at everything, including bloodsport.  That's just silly.  Nobles know perfectly well that their guardsmen can probably best them in a duel--otherwise there'd be little need to keep the fellows around in the first place.  To conclude that a nobleman would become indignant at being bested in combat by a man he -knows- is better than himself at fighting (after the nobleman himself initiated the exchange!) pushes the bounds of credulity.

[Marauder Moe]

*thumbs up*

I agree for the most part.  The sparring noble stuff would apply fine to House Tor (and the virtual House Lyksae).  Templars might be a different issue, though.  I could see Templar School in both the north and south being taught entirely by highborn.  The idea that a templar could be bested by a commoner in any fashion seems dangerous.

[Hymwen]

Good, and very long, point.

[Naiona]

The nobility of House Borsail does not trouble themselves with physical exertion of any kind, especially swordplay.  They have people for that.  Oash is much the same.

[Synthesis]

Sure, I'm just saying that, given the desire to become proficient at swordplay, a noble isn't going to lose any sleep over the fact that he's can't immediately best his master-at-arms.

[Anonymous]

Good post. Put "slaves" as a substitute for "commoners" when talking about tutors and instructors and I will call it excellent.

[Tamarin]

Quite frankly, Synthesis...

A noble should not get to win against a commoner in an auction just because he is a noble.  ESPECIALLY if he is from an opposing city state.  If he didn't bring the coin enough for the object in question, that's his own problem.  Any noble should theoretically have enough coin to heavily overbid, just to flex his economic muscles and show just why he is a noble, and why the commoner isn't.  THAT is how you show you're a noble, in my opinion.  Not by simply being there, and being high and mighty over a bunch of people who loathe you and don't respect you (speaking specifically of commoners from other city states).

[edited to add] ..in his own city state...yeah.  I'd be careful about that.  But in neutral territory, everything is fair game.  *nod*

[marko]

And if I was a 'nakki noble, I wouldn't be all "subtle" about it and go out of my way to construct a post hoc rationalization for my lack of action.  I would send a servant over and tell that person to stop bidding, or else.

I agree with this and the reaction of the Noble.  A lot of times the problem is twofold - the first is a lack of understanding from the player's view that nobles are, without question, better than their commoner character and second that nobles allow commoners to act in this manner.  I rarely see Nobles taking action against slights that commoners do to them.  

Any wealthy commoner would do well to think twice about outbidding a noble of their own citystate in a public auction where the bids are known.  The consequences of doing such a thing will likely mean political sanctions against said commoner.  The question becomes is a single item worth the potential loss of future promotions and / or the direct animosity of the Noble and their House against the commoner and / or their  own House.

A wealthy commoner from a different Citystate may do it just for fun - but if said commoner is a part of a Merchant House then they would be wise to follow the rules of engagement as being from the same Citystate.

Sparring:

Attitudes towards sparring are different from House to House.  Some Houses feel that sparring with a commoner is a taint.  Others simply feel it is below them.  In some Houses it may be that it is allowed to train with the officers of the House Guard.

[Aldiel]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis.  All your points are right on.  You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach.  No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

[Socko]

For most nobles, working with and learning from a slave is preferable to even touching a commoner.

At least you know where the slaves are coming from-- and they're trusted machines. Commoners have free will, are born like feral dogs in a junkyard, and are much less valuable-- they're a 'sid a dozen.

Veteran Commoner Employees are akin to slaves in some ways; they more than likely have some ties of loyalty, and are being paid a decent wage. They've crawled up to an acceptable level-- they're still a little dirty, but at least you know and can trust in their abilities. They're reliable tools and can be treated well-- just as well as some slaves.

[ale six]

In his own citystate, I can't imagine many cases where a noble would even be attending an auction with commoners of the opposite city. Possibly if those commoners were merchant family member representatives, but then it's arguable they aren't really foreign commoners. Otherwise, I can't imagine any instance inside Allanak where a noble would be attending an auction with Joe Tuluk -- unless the auction was to see who gets to buy Joe and throw him in the arena. Likewise for Tuluk.

I think this debate may have arisen from certain recent events, though. In a neutral setting where people of both citystates are on the same level and bidding in an auction, things are different.

About nobles and sparring -- it's made pretty clear in the documents that most of them don't. For one thing, most of them have absolutely no need to. But in the other post, what Jherlen said about nobles not sparring commoners came almost right out of the documents... I went and found it here. http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html#A%20Note%20on%20Sparring

Beyond that, I think some good points were made about just how powerful nobles are and why angering them isn't a great idea.

[Armaddict]

In regards to nobles sparring commoners:

Most nobles, while trained, are -not- expert swordsmen.  Saying that they must be taught by -someone- is completely accurate.  But that someone is not every single house employee just because you're a noble and you want to spar.

No sparring commoners is a pretty consistent guideline.  There are occasions where it doesn't completely apply, but it's always there.  If this guideline were to be ignored, I almost guarantee sparring between nobility and commoners would become almost common.  Why is this bad, in my opinion?

 In the 'meta-reality' of arm, nobles hold an esteemed position, very noticeably above their commoner counterparts.  When they pick up a sparring weapon, they are they giving this commoner the chance to perhaps bruise them, scar them, or otherwise somehow injure them.  While not necessarily serious, is someone that high above those people going to risk it for the sake of learning a thing or two with a sword?  They -do- have the money and power for guards, and more important things to do with their time.

 There's a symbolism going on, as well.  How would the commoner/noble distinction be if nobles were out picking up all these commoners and new recruits to train them?  All of a sudden, the 'superiority' of nobles is disproved with frequency, at least in the sparring ring.  

Edited to add here, since I forgot: There is also something to be said when this highly educated, powerful, and all around superior being decides to start using commoners constantly to improve himself.  He improves himself.  Nobles improve him.  Commoners do -not- improve the noble, they improve their status by working for them.

 Most nobility don't even need to spend that much time sparring.  It's not their job.  It's not -important- even.  Not even for a Tor does it take any sizeable amount of time or concern.  So if a noble decides he -does- want to take a lesson, why would he learn from a commoner when there are a feast of military genius nobles, as well as senior house members (which will almost always be NPC's, mind you), who are generally more than willing to teach?

Nobles know perfectly well that their guardsmen can probably best them in a duel--otherwise there'd be little need to keep the fellows around in the first place.

This explains it pretty well, as a matter of fact.  The nobility know that there are better fighters, so they have guards.  They also know that they have many many more facets and duties to tend to than their guards, things that require much more time and work than watching over someone else.  Sparring should not be a concern most nobles deal with.

And then on the other side, yes, nobles know they can be bested in combat by many commoners.  Why should it be flaunted -anywhere- besides with other nobility...and their Senior House Servants (once again, -generally- an npc...so in other words, probably something you clear with a clan immortal).  The rule 'no sparring against commoners' applies to 95% (yes, that percentage is made up) of all the situations a noble comes to.  And it just generally...doesn't...happen.  And it shouldn't, in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis. All your points are right on. You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach. No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

How many nobles have you seen sparring captains? I've seen them sparring new recruits, sergeants - never, not once, a captain. Why? Because captains are generally not played by PCs, and those nobles generally spar PCs. Oh, how wonderful! Viva Not Reading the Docs!

I'd like to point out that this point of view explains WHY nobles spar commoners. It should not occur under any circumstances; and if it does, the commoners should -never- win. If the commoner wins, that means that he is beating the shit out of a noble - do you know how that looks? What next? Going to kick back for some drinks at the Gaj and Gladiator just because this douche belongs to his/her House? It's ridiculous, and don't even try to rationalize it: it should not occur.

There is a massive difference between the action of being taught and sparring like the lowliest Byn runner.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares? We're based somewhat on Dune, right? Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight? It wasn't another noble, that's for sure. Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.

I can only hope this was a joke.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Jakahri]

A noble should not get to win against a commoner in an auction just because he is a noble.  ESPECIALLY if he is from an opposing city state. In neutral territory, everything is fair game

Absolutely Tamarin.

If you would like a commoner from an opposing city state to stop bidding, I suggest having someone politely stab a knife in his face. If that is...possible?

Opposing a noble from your own city-state would be a major booboo, in my opinion. That I would not do.

[Rindan]

I don't think that idea of a noble getting combat training is entirely far fetched; I just think it would be rare.  I could see a young rising noble who is particularly active seeking out some combat training to defend himself against assassins.  

I think the issue with noble's sparring has to do a lot with code.  Someone who is high enough ranked to be trusted to be swinging weapons at a noble is probably pretty damn good at combat themselves.  Code wise, they will clean the floor with a noble in a few seconds.  Clearly, this is NOT how you would want to teach a noble.  If I had to teach a noble, I would try just hard enough to keep them on their toes and learning, but never land any real blows.  Code wise you can't cripple yourself.  You are either beating the piss out of someone or you are not.  The best you can do is wield in the off hand, but even then, a solidly skilled warrior will mop the floor with a combat n00b even using only a single off handed weapon.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.  

In the end though, even with the best training I imagine your average Byner or Kurac mercenary will mop the floor in normal fair combat against a noble.  Nothing is a substitute for experience, and nobles simply would never get much no matter how active they are.  Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

[ibusoe]

The original post was awesome.

[Naiona]

There is a particuarly important little tidbit in the social mores documentation that pertains to this issue and is really not debatable in the city-state of Allanak:

*** Harming a noble physically is punishable by at the very least a severe public maiming and more usually by death***

While in Tuluk there are some shades of grey involving licensing and permits, in Allanak this is not the case - no matter what noble house you belong to.  Spar with your noble and accidentally lop off a bit of flesh and you are dead.  Most nobles won't want the commoner they value enough to trust with a weapon near them to take that kind of risk.

[Xygax]

Note:  This is not meant as official staff policy:

I think to some degree, the original poster has overstated the power (or perhaps accountability) of a PC noble.  Certainly outbidding a PC noble at auction might, if they were particularly sensitive, give them cause to wage a personal campaign against you, and yes, that campaign might result in tremendous inconvenience for your character, but I think suggesting that it would be an offense punishable by death -- or that the commoner doing the bidding would even have the fear of death in their mind -- is going a bit far.

PC nobles are indeed wealthy and powerful, and wealth and power gives them some ability to inconvenience others around them, especially commoners.  But that doesn't mean that their actions have no consequence or that they don't report to superiors who may have interests in activities OTHER than directing the resources of their noble house toward personal vendettas.

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

-- X

[marko]

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

-- X

I have to know.. was that a slip or on purpose?

[Larrath]

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

Ha ha.

Now - a noble in his home city-state has the legal right to stand up, draw a sword, and kill a commoner for no reason whatsoever.  This is in the documentation.  A noble doesn't have to be super sensitive to be extremely offended by that commoner outbidding him - a noble can get pissed, draw a sword, and stab the commoner in the face.

With that said, I agree with what ale six said - regular commoners and nobles shouldn't even attend the same auctions, and most nobles probably wouldn't grace an auction with their presence if it would have many commoners from the opposing city state.

About sparring?  I don't really see why there's such a restriction on nobles sparring.  It seems that it's easier to apply for a Nilazi noble than to have a noble allowed to spar, and I don't really see why that is.  On the other side, I agree that a noble shouldn't really spar against every other recruit in his clan.

[Naiona]

Also not meant as policy, but to expand on what Xygax said:

It is not completely impossible for a very long term, very rich commoner to hold more 'real' power then a newer noble PC.  Yes, they might not have the power of a noble house behind them - but they very well could be reguarly bribing and nuturing a lot of powerful people and have the money to back it all up.

Of course..power can also mean enemies and danger..so this is a tricky line to walk.  Most times, I see a PC come close to this kind of power and then grind their heels on the very people who could help them keep it and lock it in.  Usually, they are dead soon thereafter.  

Playing a powerful commoner is in my opinion one of the most interesting and scary roles in the game.  Too often we see only black and white/commoner/noble.  But there are certainly many layers of power and wealth within the classes and understanding where people fall and how they can help you/be used/be crushed is all part of the fun of social RP.

[Cuusardo]

If a commoner, especially one from another city state, outbids a noble in an auction, that noble can have that commoner killed if he really wants to.  But then again, maybe the noble doesn't really care that much, because he can get something just like it if he wants to.

I guess what I'm saying is that it varies from situation to situation.

[Jherlen]

I don't think that idea of a noble getting combat training is entirely far fetched; I just think it would be rare.  I could see a young rising noble who is particularly active seeking out some combat training to defend himself against assassins.

Why would he waste the time, when he can just hire additional guards to watch his back? I think every noble probably realizes that an assassin good enough to get past his guards is going to smoke him no matter what he's been taught. Physical sparring is for commoners. Nobles are fat and lazy and don't need to worry about such things.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.

Assuming they were going to bother to learn, I would agree that this is how to do it. Avoid coded sparring and landing blows and just teach the guy how to swing his sword and not look like an idiot doing it. Let him and his huge noble ego think he's the greatest thing to happen to swordsfighting since Zoro - because nobody will tell him he sucks to his face. If he ever IS in trouble, that's what bodyguards are for.

Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

See, what I would do if I was a noble would be to give a poisoned blade to each of my half-dozen guards, then stand back, sip my wine, and watch.  :twisted:


In response to Xygax: You don't think that a commoner who pisses off a noble should necessarily be afraid or have fear of death in mind? I certainly do. Nobles have lots of money and usually have the ear of a templar or two, if they're smart. Obviously it depends on the severity of the insult and the status of the commoner, but in general, I think that getting on the bad side of somebody that much more wealthy and influential than you is generally a very bad and unhealthy idea more than just an inconveniene.

[LoD]

There are a lot of good points in the original post.

Nobles and commoners sort of have a raw deal.  Due to the lack of a sufficient playerbase, two social and economic worlds that would hardly ever meet on a regular basis are often forced toward one another for no other reason than to find PC-PC interaction.

You could probably fuel an entire "world" of RP with enough noble and noble house PC's, playing city politics with a field full of allies, adversaries, cohorts and underlings that rarely, if ever, participate in the ordinary lives of the common folk.  Yet we all crave interaction on some level, and the scraps we're left to fight over probably leave no small degree of want in those players that must strive to find a balance.

The fact is that this social distance should likely be as tangible as that of a magickal vs. non-magickal person.  The level at which they should play is so clearly separate that it would make sense for them to never mix, and yet they do.   And what results are usually cries of one sort of another.

Commoners may complain that a noble abuses their authority, while the noble may complain the commoner PC's don't understand their social position in relation to the gameworld.  In a perfect situation, these two worlds would likely have little to no interaction whatsoever as the hunters, rinthers, whores, craftsmen, laborers and mercenaries of the world go about their meaningless little lives amidst the simple taverns, sandy wastes and modest housing while the high born merchants, aides, slaves and nobles forge their destiny behind guarded walls, garden paths and senate floors.

In the end, I think players at each spectrum of both the social and world order struggle in a neverending fight to balance the personal enjoyment they seek in an environment that doesn't quite have the playerbase to allow it as written, suggested or intended.

-LoD

[Stroker]

So... tough luck?

Semper Pax,

Dirr