I Get no Respect!

[Cuusardo]

Commoners may complain that a noble abuses their authority...

In a world where nobles are above the laws of their city state, I don't think it's possible for them to abuse their powers where commoners are concerned.

[Seeker]

Here are two other posts that largely relate to these issues.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11428
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14033

There's a lot of good comments stated here, and brought up back then as well.

IMHO, the role of the nobility can veer severely towards suckage if the consensus is that not only are the Nobility strongly curtained from utilizing or developing any useful skills, but that any wealthy commoner might expect to exert comparable social influence based soley upon their pocket change.

Money alone should not be the basis of true power.  Services should not, on Zalathas, just go the highest bidder of coins.  Prestige and social standing have to count, or the concept of the Nobility is worthless.


Seeker

[LoD]

In a world where nobles are above the laws of their city state, I don't think it's possible for them to abuse their powers where commoners are concerned.

I wasn't meaning that a commoner ICly would complain that nobles were being too harsh, but more that commoner players mgiht feel a noble was killing/executing commoner PC's when they probably shouldn't even be in that environment as much in the first place.

It hasn't been as much of a problem in recent years that I've seen, but I know that there have been some past nobles who took to killing several commoner players when I doubt they really would've had a cause to interact with them in the first place if they had a suitable group of nobles with which to play and interact.

That's part of the problem.  Nobles likely don't have anything to say to a commoner, but they might frequent a common quarter in search of interaction.  When you don't have any level of play other than to be revolted/offended, the chance of your interaction revolving around negative outcomes is higher than it likely would be if said noble had enough interaction amidst their own social order to keep them out of these places.

Kind of like a wolf going to hang out with the sheep because he doesn't have enough wolf friends.  There isn't a whole lot of common ground between the sheep and the wolf, and it seems as if it's just a matter of time before it ends up bad for the sheep.

-LoD

[Cegar]

About the outbidding thing which was obviously taken from a very recent IC event, I think you should mind your own business. It is not our jobs to police specific instances of RP. That is why we have the immortals. Quite frankly, you do not have the information necessary of the characters and events involved to criticize their RP, and to do so, in my opinion, is ignorant and rude. Furthermore, you brought very, very recent IC problems to the OOC general discussion. In my opinion, that's pretty bad form. This isn't a personal attack, but I think we should let the immortals do the jobs that they are infinitely better equipped to do and leave the critiques of characters and events to the people who are supposed to do it.

[Marauder Moe]

If the "very recent IC event" people suspect this may be about happened in the last two days then I think you are mistaken.  This is a spinoff thread of a comment made in a thread posted last Saturday.  If not then... *shrug*

I have been to auctions in the distant past where nobles and commoners bid against eachother, so it's not an isolated incident.

[Packersfan]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

An Allanaki Noble losing an auction to a commoner from Tuluk, or a tribal, would be disgraceful in my opinion. A 'Nakki Noble views themselves as so much higher then a commoner that it can't even be expressed in words because it is that serious of a mind state. No matter how you cut the cake, the Noble LOSSED TO A COMMONER/TRIBAL IN SOMETHING. Therefore, I agree with your post Synthesis; people do not take Allanaki Nobility serious enough. It says in the docs that they can kill a commoner if they so please.

I could see a Noble learning from a master swordsman, just a few moves. But that swordsman better compliment the noble even if they are doing poorly. A Templar sparring a commoner? Never, never, never, never. Did I mention never?

[Jherlen]

Cross-posted from newbie thread to avoid derail...

[

:arrow: A noble sparring a commoner is bad. It leaves them open to assassination and puts the commoner on equal footing with the noble. A templar sparring a commoner isn't as bad, because they both know if the templar ever feels like it, he can call on his Sorc-King of choice's holy powers and turn the commoner into a pillar of ash. Even if a commoner has better swordplay there's no question of who is still on top.
.

A Commoner sparring a Templar is completely innapropriate. Consult the docs for further information.

I have been. I see nothing anywhere to suggest that a templar isn't allowed to do this. Nobility, yes. Unless I'm mistaken, templars are considered differently. If you can point out somewhere in the documentation that states a position on it, go ahead, but I haven't been able to find one.

All the ideas discussed about not sparring your new recruits likely still apply, but I was under the impression that templars could do just about whatever they felt like regarding commoners - spar them, screw them, kill them, whatever.

[Cegar]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

You really think he wasn't talking about the specific instance when it matches exactly the situation he ws describing? You've got to be kidding me.

[Maybe42or54]

Why would a templar spar a commoner for anything but for shits and giggles?

They can think to themselves "Tektolness Almighty, gift me with the power of iron skin and can you give me a side order of giant strength?"

[Anonymous]

I could see a Noble learning from a master swordsman, just a few moves. But that swordsman better compliment the noble even if they are doing poorly. A Templar sparring a commoner? Never, never, never, never. Did I mention never?

Do templars just spring out of holes in the ground? No... no... they're former nobles, and ARE nobles, and should be treated and role-played as such. It would be unthinkable for a templar (who's a noble) to a spar a commoner - such an act would be beneath him/her.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Larrath]

I think that templars are going to choose practicality over looking so much better than the commoners.  It's easy to tell that the templar is better than you because that templar has, you know, magick and speaks Tatlum and can really kick your ass if he wants to.
Additional to these extra reminders of superiority that regular nobles don't get, templars are also soldiers in many cases.  They don't just sit in the back and command the armies, they get out there and fight.  If templars only had minimal combat training, they wouldn't make very effective soldiers.

[Maybe42or54]

The job of a templar is to maintain law in the city which he/she serves or, more precisely, s/he is to carry out the orders of the King. All of a templar's power comes from above, either from higher ranking templars or from the King of the city. These powers might be magicks, knowledge, or any number of favours or privileges. One thing remains common: all templars are exempt from the laws of the city they serve, and this has led to much corruption within the ranks of Templars.

Why would a templar even spar? They get all their power from ABOVE. Who needs help from a dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner?

[Tamarin]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

An Allanaki Noble losing an auction to a commoner from Tuluk, or a tribal, would be disgraceful in my opinion. A 'Nakki Noble views themselves as so much higher then a commoner that it can't even be expressed in words because it is that serious of a mind state. No matter how you cut the cake, the Noble LOSSED TO A COMMONER/TRIBAL IN SOMETHING. Therefore, I agree with your post Synthesis; people do not take Allanaki Nobility serious enough. It says in the docs that they can kill a commoner if they so please.

I'm sorry, but did the noble even try to win?  Imagine this:

Code Select Expand

The fat noble says, in sirihish:
  "I bet 1 sid!"

The filthy commoner says, in sirihish:
  "I bet 10 000 sid!"

The fat noble shrugs, and stops betting.

You're basically saying this shouldn't happen.  Well...then it's time for the noble to show what he's really made of, don't you agree?

[Larrath]

The job of a templar is to maintain law in the city which he/she serves or, more precisely, s/he is to carry out the orders of the King. All of a templar's power comes from above, either from higher ranking templars or from the King of the city. These powers might be magicks, knowledge, or any number of favours or privileges. One thing remains common: all templars are exempt from the laws of the city they serve, and this has led to much corruption within the ranks of Templars.

Why would a templar even spar? They get all their power from ABOVE. Who needs help from a dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner?

Templars are given special authorities, are taught secrets, or are given access to magick, artifacts or hawt f-mes or whatever.  These powers don't seem to include having decent skills with a weapon.  And if the Templarate didn't need any help from some dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner than the city-states wouldn't have Militias.

Nobles have no real need to learn how to fight because they're not really expected to ever have to fight for their own lives, being able to depend on bodyguards.  Templars can't depend solely on their bodyguards (or even on their magick) when they march off to do war.

[Maybe42or54]

As I have been by a few different templars, and have been around them more than I should, Magick makes everything possible.

[Larrath]

As I have been by a few different templars, and have been around them more than I should, Magick makes everything possible.

I don't want to get too much into this.  Suffice to say that any character that wants to get involved in combat regularly has a great deal of interest in getting some decent fighting skills.  And when templars fight, they're usually not hunting scrabs where they could make a run for it in the end.

[Maybe42or54]

No and if it becomes so bad that they are actually having to use weapons is not good odds for that templar winning. Even if they do spar, it will be with other templars and other nobles, not some commoner working for them for 5 years.

[Anonymous]

These arguments seem very redundant - one side says A, the other side says B, rinse and repeat. If you do not wish to understand, I suppose I can live with that... as long as you do not.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[jcarter]

For bidding, I think it would differ from noble to noble. Nobles don't have cookie-cutter attitudes. Yes, one might be pissed off that a commoner dared to bid against them. Another might smile and think it's cute that a commoner could even attempt to bid against them. Yet another might be happy, since they get a chance to show just how wealthy and powerful they are by upping the money.

As for the commoner, there's a variety of reasons. Maybe another noble stuck them there and funded them. Outbidding that first noble and making them look poorer than a commoner was their subtle revenge for some past transgression. Things are never black and white.

[Aldiel]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis. All your points are right on. You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach. No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

How many nobles have you seen sparring captains? I've seen them sparring new recruits, sergeants - never, not once, a captain. Why? Because captains are generally not played by PCs, and those nobles generally spar PCs. Oh, how wonderful! Viva Not Reading the Docs!

I'd like to point out that this point of view explains WHY nobles spar commoners. It should not occur under any circumstances; and if it does, the commoners should -never- win. If the commoner wins, that means that he is beating the shit out of a noble - do you know how that looks? What next? Going to kick back for some drinks at the Gaj and Gladiator just because this douche belongs to his/her House? It's ridiculous, and don't even try to rationalize it: it should not occur.

There is a massive difference between the action of being taught and sparring like the lowliest Byn runner.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares? We're based somewhat on Dune, right? Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight? It wasn't another noble, that's for sure. Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.

I can only hope this was a joke.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

This was a bit of an insulting post.  BTW, nobles in real life have always had trainers.  Fencing is huge amongst nobility in RL, I don't see why combat could not be a hobby for them too on Armageddon, and I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form.  Of course, he would do this privately.  I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard.  As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual?  Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

[Aldiel]

I think the issue with noble's sparring has to do a lot with code.  Someone who is high enough ranked to be trusted to be swinging weapons at a noble is probably pretty damn good at combat themselves.  Code wise, they will clean the floor with a noble in a few seconds.  Clearly, this is NOT how you would want to teach a noble.  If I had to teach a noble, I would try just hard enough to keep them on their toes and learning, but never land any real blows.  Code wise you can't cripple yourself.  You are either beating the piss out of someone or you are not.  The best you can do is wield in the off hand, but even then, a solidly skilled warrior will mop the floor with a combat n00b even using only a single off handed weapon.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.  

In the end though, even with the best training I imagine your average Byner or Kurac mercenary will mop the floor in normal fair combat against a noble.  Nothing is a substitute for experience, and nobles simply would never get much no matter how active they are.  Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

I think we're missing the important fact that we don't have to interpret the code word for word on arm.  You could spar him with a club in your inventory.  Or you could spar him with emotes.

[marko]

...I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form.  Of course, he would do this privately.  I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard.  As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual?  Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

Combat training with pointers is not the same as sparring.  The physical act of striking a noble is punishable by death.

Teaching a noble how to swing a sword without touching them is very feasible.  There are in game mechanisms to facilitate this (teach command) and this type of training involves _no_ sparring.

As stated earlier, some of the noble houses may allow sparring between commoners and nobility but most do not.  Each House has their own reasons and this is part of the noble protocol and upbringing of the noble.  If a noble breaks this protocol and actually spars common blood then they are tossing in all their years of training and upbringing aside to do so.   Again, this only goes for those Houses that do not allow sparring with commoners.

A noble who is learning to fight as an artform would probably have no interest in learning the killing and common methods of a regular guard.  Instead they would likely be fighting in some stylized form that would have little use in a real fight.  

A couple nobles who are dueling against one another or training with one another could conceivably have a Captain of the guard observing and offering suggestions - depending entirely on the nobles involved.

For the most part, those Houses that do not allow sparring have created internal taboos against it and the nobles of that House would _not_ break these social convictions on a whim or a mere desire.  In other words, it makes no sense for nobles from the Noble Houses that do not allow sparring to be sparring and to do so is really really bad form both ICly and OOCly.

[spawnloser]

Teaching a noble how to swing a sword without touching them is very feasible.  There are in game mechanisms to facilitate this (teach command) and this type of training involves _no_ sparring.

Marko beat me to this.

To people that say, "But my noble's trusted guardsman has been in the House for 20 IG years!  He's prooven himself just like Gurney Halleck!"  Well, this isn't Dune, and you aren't an Atreides.  Also, just because TGA (Trusted Guardsman A) is above reproach doesn't mean that the spy of the House that lives right next door (rather than solar systems away) didn't poison the sparring weapon TGA will be fighting with against your noble.

I played a noble once that wanted to learn to defend himself, being the paranoid bastard that he was, and had several different members of the Guard 'teach' him.  My noble didn't want to learn an artform.  He wanted to learn to kill someone that was trying to kill him.  The thought of sparring was there, and plans were made, okayed by the IMM...though it never happened.

The plans?  Here's how in depth the order of business was planned before the okay was given by 3 senior members of the House (read: the IMMs):

Step 1: Guard to be sparred (GTBS) strips naked.
Step 2: Noble PERSONALLY inspects all articles of clothing before handing back the equivalent of a loincloth.
Step 3: GTBS enters the sparring ring, wearing the loincloth and carrying no weapon, and all articles from GTBS are put under guard.
Step 4: Noble, wearing full armor (no lightweight stuff, leather and chitin) and wielding a non-training weapon enters the ring.
Step 5: Noble and GTBS actually spar with 4 other trusted guards, just in case.

This was a fairly militant house that I was playing a noble in, and this was considered sufficient, though barely so, precautions.

Consider this when saying that noble sparring should be okay.

[Anonymous]

This was a bit of an insulting post. BTW, nobles in real life have always had trainers. Fencing is huge amongst nobility in RL, I don't see why combat could not be a hobby for them too on Armageddon, and I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form. Of course, he would do this privately. I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard. As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual? Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

S/he may as well then just spar with a virtual noble or consult IMMs as per the most appropriate trainer for a noble. Aside from my ramblings in an attempt to ridicule your point of view, I did point out in the quoted post that there is a difference between being taught and sparring. The latter should never be practiced with commoners; the former may occur, but only with 'certain' commoners.  

And while my post was clearly intended to be insulting, I do apologize for it.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Packersfan]

Templars are given special authorities, are taught secrets, or are given access to magick, artifacts or hawt f-mes or whatever.  These powers don't seem to include having decent skills with a weapon.  And if the Templarate didn't need any help from some dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner than the city-states wouldn't have Militias.

Sorry Larrath, but you forget that a Templar has spent about 20 years of their life receiving millitary training of all sorts. That is why their powers do include decent skills with a weapon. As for militias, Templars can die after all so they need backup sometimes. You need an army no matter what, because in the end Templars ARE human.