I Get no Respect!

[Jherlen]

Still looking for where in the docs it says that templars shouldn't be sparring commoners. Don't buy the argument that templars would never need to spar - they certainly seem to fight and kill people often enough. The only templars who may not need to know how to fight are Tuluki Lirathans, and that's because the Jihaens do all the martial stuff. A templar has super god-granted powers that he can call on in self defense if he ever actually needs to. He's much safer sparring a commoner than a noble who has none.

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I'm glad to hear so many restrictions put on nobles and sparring. That's what noble's underlings, their PC servants, are for. The last thing I want is to see nobles taking things hands-on. Then what are aides and bodyguards going to do? These roles can be slow and plodding at times as it is.

Waving off the PC whose job is to fight for you and has been waiting his entire career for a chance like this, you say, in Sirihish, "Don't worry, Sergeant. I'll take care of this."
draw sword
draw sword
bash elf

[Naiona]

Still looking for where in the docs it says that templars shouldn't be sparring commoners. .

http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html

Read "A note on sparring".  Templars are of a similar social class to the nobility, but there is even more reason to beware of assassination attempts, as they are far more likely to have generated deadly enemies.

In addition, for a templar to spar with a commoner is to admit that a commoner has anything to teach them - which is just not the case.  These are the servants of a God King.  They have been tutored from a very young age, sometimes as young as three or four years old.  By the time a templar makes his or her public appearance, the only thing to be gained by sparring with a commoner is the scorn and snickering of their fellow templars.

It should also be noted that the reason templars do not need to spar is as much OOC as it is IC.  We do not want our templar players to be spending their time hidden away trying to boost their combat skills.  They should be out terrorizing the rest of the population.

[Synthesis]

Again, I'm going to reiterate:  the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

Spawnloser, most of those precautions you supposedly had to take are to limit the potential of a twink using a quirk in the code to kill you.  Having extra guards on hand just in case is a good idea even in a realistic case, but  a complete strip-down search is just unnecessary.  If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

As far as Naiona's argument concerning the law against "injuring" nobility, again, it's an ambiguously fallacious argument that uses an OOC premise to support an IC conclusion.

That is:
1.  Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)
2.  Sparring can result in injuring a noble.  (OOC code quirk.)
3.  Therefore, sparring a noble can result in being punished with a death sentence. (Purely IC conclusion.)

The second premise is based on the OOC fact that there is no way to spar and get a skill boost (without Imm support) beyond actually typing "kill joe."  Realistically, a noble in a full suit of armor--greathelm, the whole 9 yards--would never actually be injured, beyond the odd bruise.  (Of course, this raises the question:  What if we sparred using emotes and communications only?)

You cannot draw IC conclusions from OOC facts, or you run the risk of ruining the logical consistency of the gameworld.

Further, the "Social Mores" documentation seems entirely contrived, and just doesn't make any sense.  The pseudo-psychological explanation strikes me as absurd.  I can't imagine that, in a society as warlike, combative, and in-your-face as Allanak, nobles would honestly take no pleasure in fighting.  Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?  Why would nobles of House Borsail take no interest in fighting, when a good portion of their business is based on training slaves to be gladiators?

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Sure, you can make arguments that this noble or that noble might not be interested, but you have considerable difficulty coming up with a universal explanation that doesn't come into conflict with other "facts on the ground", and so far, to my estimation, nobody has been able to do it.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

[CaleKnight]

I pretty much agree with everything in Synthesis's excellent post.

I'd also like to point out that this would be a great use for a "full defense" option which would allow the "GTBS" to spar a noble without ever actually touching him.

And of course, if both people fighting went into "full defense" mode, combat would cease immediately, making it unnecessary to flee into an entirely different room, etc etc etc it's all been said before.

[Naiona]

*** Below is my unofficial opinion, though the documentation referenced is official***

Reading the post by Synthesis definately shows me where you are coming from.  However, it reflects a view of the Allanaki nobility that does not accurately reflect who they are, where they came from and what purpose they serve to the ruler of the citystate (based on game history and established documentation).  I've started a new thread here to discuss this - and post links to the official docs I am referencing, as this one is getting out of control long.

If what people want is a reworking of the city government and a new social definition for the nobility to turn them into working nobles rather then the indolent rich, that is an entirely different topic - but it would probably require a world-changing event of some type.

[Jakahri]

Again, I'm going to reiterate:  the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

Only if you look at it from an ooc perspective.

Further, the "Social Mores" documentation seems entirely contrived, and just doesn't make any sense.  The pseudo-psychological explanation strikes me as absurd.  I can't imagine that, in a society as warlike, combative, and in-your-face as Allanak, nobles would honestly take no pleasure in fighting.

I find nothing contrived in the documents. It seems as if you are merely upset at the staff not allowing you to fight your noble sister/brother or commoner. If you are going to contend that the likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on ooc perceptions, then I find it only fair that I can contend your wanting to spar is based on ooc factors; ie you wanting to get buff, even though you have no need to since your guards are highly trained and knowledgeable in fighting.

Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?

Perhaps they enjoy watching a gory death from the safety of the stands and do not actually prefer to lower themselves to a barbarous commoner. I'm sorry, but for a noble to enjoy an arena match in which people are slaughetered does not imply that the noble in question his/herself actually prefers to don armor and fight. Sure, a noble -could- enjoy fighting, but why would they? That's what guards are for. I find it cheesy for a noble who is holier than thou to want to train; there is no IC need for them to do such unless they are a bastard noble with a military rank. C'mon, you're pulling teeth here.

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Again, I shall reiterate. Just because a noble enjoys watching a bout does not mean they themselves wish to engage in one. Sure, it's possible, but I personally feel you will be defeating the purpose of what it means to be a noble if you begin sparring regularly.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

I don't speak for staff, but I can only assume they'd like to see nobles focusing on other aspects of ArmageddonMUD besides sparring and training. Nobles, in my humble opinion, have far better things to do, like conspire, manipulate, bribe, extort, etc.. Nobles are not meant to be buff pc's in melee. They are meant to have other strengths that relate to the political scope of ArmageddonMUD and bring another aspect to roleplay that provides a direct contrast to your normal mundane.

Any noble who trains with commoners or other nobles in my opinion is merely lowering themself to the level of that commoner and showing an obvious lack of faith in the skills of their guard. There is nothing wrong with the Machiavellian concept of a noble. That is their intent and purpose in this game, and I'm sticking by my assertion.[/b]

[marko]

That is:
1.  Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)

The law is anyone striking at a noble.  Whether or not they draw blood or injure them is irrelevant.

Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?  Why would nobles of House Borsail take no interest in fighting, when a good portion of their business is based on training slaves to be gladiators?

Two separate issues.  The first is easy enough to explain.  I enjoy watching ski jumping, downhill skiing, speed skating, and bobsled.  This doesn't mean I will take up any of these sports just because I enjoy watching them.  

In other words, watching people fight is not the same as fighting yourself.  I watch boxing and ultimate fighting, yet I do not do martial arts.  I currently have no interest in martial arts.  If I did take up martial arts it wouldn't be for an interest in fighting it would be for an interest in getting into shape and self-discipline.  This is a modern day example and thus misses the scope of how things would be in Allanak by a factor of anywhere between one hundred (100) and a million (1000000.)  

A noble from an upper tier House in Allanak has lived a life of luxury and pampering - they are not fit and they wouldn't keep themselves fit.  Since birth these nobles are taught they are above the common filth.  They are taught that commoners and slaves do all their work for them.  They are taught that being fit is a sign of being a commoner.  It would be a rare noble from these Houses who is actually fit and toned.  This rare exception would face constant ridicule from their peers.  

As per Borsail's slaving operations:  That is a matter internal to Borsail but I would guess that gladiators make up a minority of Borsail's conditioning program.  And that those gladiators are trained by other slave gladiators who have proven themselves.  Training gladiators directly would be an exceptionally dangerous and risky occupation and I don't see a single Borsail noble taking a direct hand in the training.  Overseeing - yes.  Directly training?  No way.

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Tuluk is a caste society.  That'd be an answer.  There is a _very_ distinct separation between nobility and commoners.  You do not cross it.  There are complexities involved in Tuluk's society rankings and structures that are beyond those of Allanak's but this is the simple answer.  Individual Houses have their own exact reason for the no commoner spar rule (assuming they have it).

Now, would a Tuluki noble take up a blade as an art form?  Certainly.  Would they practice under the watchful gaze of a master?  Quite possibly.  Would a Tuluki noble even go out and hunt?  I can see that easily.  Hunting for sport was a pastime of Old Tuluk.

Would they spar and engage in a physical struggle with a commoner who supports them and relies on them while, in turn, provides a variety of services to the noble?  No.  That'd be base, that'd be barbaric, and that'd be silly.  It goes against social constraints to get into a sweaty shoving match with commoners.  

Sure, you can make arguments that this noble or that noble might not be interested, but you have considerable difficulty coming up with a universal explanation that doesn't come into conflict with other "facts on the ground", and so far, to my estimation, nobody has been able to do it.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

Each playable Noble House has its own reasons for this not allowing sparring.  There isn't a single all encompassing reason for why _all_ noble Houses frown upon sparring.  There are many different reasons each of which is unique to the House they belong to.

In terms of OOC reasons - I believe the no spar rule is in place to reinforce the difference and separation of nobles from the commoners in their house.  It is a simple and effective method.  Familiarity breeds contempt.  Since the vast majority of arm players are not nobility and do not live in a society where there is a true noble culture - we need OOC constraints to constantly remind us what nobility really is.

[Armaddict]

Synthesis, I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.  Thusfar, your main argument seems to be centered around nobles getting hurt by commoners or taking risks.

Again, I'm going to reiterate: the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

So is the fact that burglars have to pick doors to break in.  Big lock = no entry, even if you leave all your windows open for a romantic zalanthan night in your mansion.  Everything in the game is based on ooc code factors, it's played around.

If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

Yes, there are simpler, more direct ways.  But sometimes there are other variables than just the death of the victim to take into account.  The above is a method.  And although it is not portrayed by code, the idea of poisoning a sparring dagger is not that bad of an idea, particularly for certain goals.  While it may not be guaranteed to pierce the skin that first fight, there may be subsequent matches where yes, that noble gets a scratch, and open scrape, a large -sliver-.  Yes, it's far more certain in the code, but the idea isn't as impossible as you're making it out to be.

As far as Naiona's argument concerning the law against "injuring" nobility, again, it's an ambiguously fallacious argument that uses an OOC premise to support an IC conclusion.

That is:
1. Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)
2. Sparring can result in injuring a noble. (OOC code quirk.)
3. Therefore, sparring a noble can result in being punished with a death sentence. (Purely IC conclusion.)

I don't think that was an argument explaining THE reason that nobles generally don't spar commoners.  If anything, it says that if we allowed it, a noble who sparred a commoner could, at any point, decide he got hurt to bad and have that guy killed.  The above is a reason the commoners won't spar nobles, not why nobles won't spar commoners.

In the end, there are so many small reasons plus some big ones as to why it's not socially acceptable.  
  -Sure, it may be relatively safe, but accidents happen.  If an accident happened to a noble, the other nobility would say 'Why the fuck did he even take the risk?  He didn't need to do it."  Not socially accepted, he'll get made fun of when he shows up with a giant commoner-made scar or dies from poison.  
  -Yeah, it makes him a better fighter for his military role, or more of an artist...but he needed a commoner to improve in those aspects?  "What the hell?  We're better than them, we only need them around to do all this stupid shit we don't want to do.  He needs them, the lowlifes, to improve him?  That would mean...he's lower than them!"  Not socially accepted, he'll get made fun of for trying to be a commoner, because that's the only thing they're better than him at...being a commoner.  
  -Indeed, it may be a hobby, but a hobby doesn't require lowering yourself to improve at.  "He spent time doing -that-, and with a commoner?  What a complete waste of time, and socializing with them that way?  He must be sore for company to spend his free time with that lowborn instead of us."  Not socially acceptable.  It's a hobby that can be patronizing to the lower life forms when you do it with style and grace, rather than with the force driven by the need to survive, but -not- when you have a lower life form teaching it to you.
  -So many more reasons it doesn't occur that I didn't touch.  Funny enough, while playing the noble, the reasons tend to slip in after you get used to the 'me over them' mentality, where you -are- better.  Reasons come according to general social norms -and- each individual noble, and house, and city.

I don't mind nobles sparring, but I -do- think commoners working out and sparring on a continuous basis with nobles, even a slow one, degrades the noble and the noble role.  I'd rather this part stayed out.

[spawnloser]

Spawnloser, most of those precautions you supposedly had to take are to limit the potential of a twink using a quirk in the code to kill you.  Having extra guards on hand just in case is a good idea even in a realistic case, but  a complete strip-down search is just unnecessary.  If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

Since everyone else has responded to the rest of what you said...I'll reply to this specifically.

The motto of every assassin should be, "Any object can be used as a weapon capable of killing."  Just because you can't bash someone's head in with a book through code doesn't mean that you couldn't realistically do it.  Also, a wooden dagger can't pierce the skin?  Tell that to the people in the game using wooden swords.  "Those can't hurt me!  They're made of wood!"  Are you going to call everyone using a wooden weapon a twink?

Also, as far as poison goes, there are inumerable ways to poison someone.

The strip search WAS necessary from an IC point of view...to make sure that the person was not hiding poison in...ahem...a creative location?  Perchance a location not actually supported by code, and thus not twinky, since being twinky is utilizing ooc knowledge or the code to generate an advantage that you should not have.

[Cale_Knight]

Also, a wooden dagger can't pierce the skin?  Tell that to the people in the game using wooden swords.  "Those can't hurt me!  They're made of wood!"  Are you going to call everyone using a wooden weapon a twink?

No, because the people using wooden swords are using sharpened wooden swords. Wooden training weapons are basically sanded-down sticks with pommels.

[spawnloser]

They have edges, otherwise they are clubs.  Maybe they're not as sharp, but you can still stab someone with them and draw blood.  Trust me, I've done it in real life.