Smother

[Fragmented]

I would like to see subduers able to smother the people they subdue. Attempting to flee would of course keep the smothering from taking place, but if you wear yourself completely out, and don't manage to escape the hold, you're dead meat without having to be hacked and stabbed to pieces as your captor closes off your airway through any of a variety of rp'd ways.  :twisted:

[spawnloser]

Subdue is already evil enough, I think.

I mean, if you have just one friend when you subdue a third person?  You'd assume and probably be right that the friend can hit the guy you're subduing pretty easily...either getting a bonus or the other guy getting a penalty or something.

You can throw people into other rooms.  I'll just let you think about that.

[Rindan]

I think that is actually a pretty solid idea.  I would have smother work such that first it drains movement points, then stun points, then finally HP.  If a big old mul or half-giant grabs you and starts trying to strangle you, you SHOULD be worried.  As a bonus, it could give people a way to knock someone out without having to kludge them to death with a weapon.  I like it.

[Cegar]

I'de rather see it implemented for people who are sleeping/unconcious. Sleeping would have a resistance check (based on scan skills, etc) and you would possible be able to "flee" out of it. This would bring in garrot wires and pillows. Finally something to make for those pillow crafters.

[Morgenes]

I think that is actually a pretty solid idea.  I would have smother work such that first it drains movement points, then stun points, then finally HP.  If a big old mul or half-giant grabs you and starts trying to strangle you, you SHOULD be worried.  As a bonus, it could give people a way to knock someone out without having to kludge them to death with a weapon.  I like it.

I could see a strangle-hold type command that could be done if you have someone subdued.  It would likely do stun damage first (knocking them out), then potentially hit point damage.

*NOTE* My agreeing with an idea does not necessarily mean it will be implemented, just that I think it's a neat idea.

[williamson]

Here is an old idea of mine that is similar to smother:


Skill: Choke

This skilled is used by warriors who have subdued their victims. A successful choke will place the subdued victim into a choking headlock. As the choke is maintained, the victim will eventually lose conciousness if the attacker has the stamina to maintain the hold. Once placed in the choke, the victim will lose stun points and the attacker maintaining the choke will lose stamina. If the victim loses all of her/his stun points, she/he falls unconcious. If the attacker loses all of her/his stamina, the attacker is forced to release the victim.

Example:

subdue templar
>You subdue the balding, obese templar.

choke templar
>You position yourself behind the balding, obese templar and place him in a headlock.

Failing the choke:
>You try to position yourself behind the balding, obese templar, but he escapes your grip.

After success each tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as he gasps for air.

Tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as the color of his face begins to turns a shade of blue.

Tick:

You release the balding, obese templar as he collapses to the ground, unconcious.

Once in the choke hold, victims could type flee and try to break free just like a subdue.

-Williamson

[Armaddict]

Wow.

I wouldn't mind if this replaced 'kill' as the only option for a lone man who has someone subdued.

Sure, a friend can still maul you.  But it helps make the 'subdue/kill' problem subside a little (no more instant knockouts with only one attempt/chance to get away), and gives a little more 'feel' for how the unarmed fight is ending rather than just the instant pounds to the head with a fist that should probably be holding them somewhere.

[Cenghiz]

Yes, forcing 'release' before hitting someone you subdue and choking being introduced instead would be a neat addition.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes, forcing 'release' before hitting someone you subdue and choking being introduced instead would be a neat addition.

Heh, alright.  But while we're at it I'd like to see a "neck-snap" command thrown in along with the package.

[Malifaxis]

As someone who's played people who can literally grab other people by the neck and throw them a good sixty cords, I would greatly not like to see an auto release when you type kill.

I think a different choke command would be excellent ,but if you wanna grab someone and pop them one in the face or groin or whatever, or just throw them against a wall, you should be able to.

[mansa]

We could call it squeeze, and have it cause the person to lose movement points.

Because when nobody has movement points, they can't get away.


WOAH DEJA VU

[Armaddict]

As someone who's played people who can literally grab other people by the neck and throw them a good sixty cords, I would greatly not like to see an auto release when you type kill.

Racial differences?

I realize that the choke doesn't apply to all situations.  But at the same time, subdue could be made so that it's success followed by a kill command is not an almost certain case of a guy being a ninja who instantly manipulates your body in some way, whether hitting -exactly- where they needed to (while you're struggling), throwing you head first into a wall (if they catch themselves, it may be a broken arm but not a knockout/death), or what have you.

Sure, it -can- happen. But not with the amount of certainty that exists with the command as is.  That sort of certainty comes with a high degree of training, fitness, and situational effects (that come more often with that training). If your subdue is high enough skill, their inability to get away while you choke them will reflect that training.

But while we're at it I'd like to see a "neck-snap" command thrown in along with the package.

That's a little harder to do without some wrestling and real effort, unless you take them by surprise or something surprising happens that helps you out.  Generally, in a hand to hand scramble, it's a little harder to get into that position that you can do it from easily simply because they won't allow themselves to be that vulnerable.

With surprise, it would be akin to backstab.  They use the stealth to get into that position where they can do a neck-snap.  Neck snaps just don't happen because if you have a weapon, you'll generally use it, and neck-snap -isn't- supported by code for that.

Subdue is more of a direct wrestling match, I think.  Subdue would still be an instant grab, I think...but you'd be unable to use that to kill so instantly as well, since now your adversary -is- probably struggling and defending themself.

If you're good enough to pull off the ninja shit, sure...the code may make it last longer.  But it's a lot more accurate for subdue to be a longer killer to the non-pro people.

In the cases of those who can -naturally- do it better through sheer physical ability, such as muls and half-giants, they would of course have racial benefits.  These racial benefits are already coded in the game, though likely not through actual coding -for- the bonus, but rather through their race's actual superiority in an area, such as strength, modifying their success.  But if we talk about changes to the subdue in the first place, then these modifications to the code for these 'exceptions' would already likely be coming.

[Synthesis]

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of the subdue;hit combo, Armaddict.

I've done it a few times here and there, and it seems to only have a significant damage modifier, not a location modifier.

So if your offense skill sucks, you might solidly hit your subdued target, but you're probably going to hit him on the leg or other location where it's not going to cause a knockout.

I've only seen instant knockouts in cases where 1) The attacker was already skilled or 2) The attacker was extremely strong and landed a body blow.  This makes sense...if you're a skilled fighter, you should be able to land a good head or neck shot; if you're weak and unskilled, you're probably not going to do anything; and if you're a man beast, you might get lucky.

But I agree that it's kind of a lame way to go about the whole situation.  A choke/grapple/whatever command would avoid the messiness.

My ideas:
1) The stun damage for the choke would be greatly dependent on strength, and moderately dependent on skill.  Half-giants and muls should be able to choke just about -anyone- out without ever having wrestled before in their lives, because they're strong enough to rip your arms right out of the sockets in the first place.

2) Choke should branch from subdue, so newbie warriors and subclass guards aren't instant killing machines.

3) Failing a skillcheck on choke should cause the victim to be released, because if choke branches from subdue, the subduer's skill level is going to be high enough that the subued probably won't be able to escape. If this is the case, once an individual branches the choke skill, it becomes pointless to even have the skillcheck, because they'll simply be able to spam it until it succeeds, while the victim is unable to escape anyway.  If you're not going to let the victim escape, there's no point in even having a skillcheck, or even a skill for that matter.

4) Skillchecks should get a massive bonus for strength.  Large enough so that muls and half-giants without subdue or choke would be able to choke out most unskilled victims.  Again, because muls and half-giants are (and should be) scary as hell.

[SpyGuy]

2) Choke should branch from subdue, so newbie warriors and subclass guards aren't instant killing machines.

3) Failing a skillcheck on choke should cause the victim to be released, because if choke branches from subdue, the subduer's skill level is going to be high enough that the subued probably won't be able to escape. If this is the case, once an individual branches the choke skill, it becomes pointless to even have the skillcheck, because they'll simply be able to spam it until it succeeds, while the victim is unable to escape anyway.  If you're not going to let the victim escape, there's no point in even having a skillcheck, or even a skill for that matter.

I absolutely love all of Synthesis's ideas on this matter.  Having another skill for warriors to branch that might make them more useful seems like a good idea to me, especially since it's a needed skill for the game.  But having it be possible for nonskilled users as well sounds great.

A few ideas to add:

1) Each choke attempt should give the victim a chance to escape if it fails as Synthesis said.  I'd suggest having this chance be dependent on the victim's subdue skill.  So if a warrior moderately skilled at subdue is getting choked by a halfgiant he should have a much better chance of breaking free than a merchant without the skill.

2) After choke drains all of a person's stun points it should then it should start to drain hp.  This way someone has the ability to kill a victim with it slowly.  I can see this offering a lot of possibilities for interrogation and RPing a kill without having to draw weapons and make a bloody mess of it.

3)  This might go without saying but if a person is in a condition where he can automatically be subdued (paralyzed or already knocked out) then choke's success should be automatic.

4)  Choke should have a small delay associated with it since any choke attempt, successful or not, should represent prolonged effort.  This would also enable more ability to RP the scene and not just spam the command.

Those are my small additions.  Jumping on the choke is a great idea bandwagon here.

[Fragmented]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

I think choke shouldn't even be a skill. It should be a command, for when you have someone subdued. If you stink at subdue, or they're really fast and you can't grab them to begin with, they're safe. But if, for instance, they're sleeping, you should be able to grab them (waking them up if they -can- be woken up) and choke the life out of them.

[Morfeus]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

And like anyone can pick and use the sword, for example?  :twisted:

[Cenghiz]

Anyone can subdue, sneak, hide, steal, kick, bash or swing weapons.. Just... some folks learn and some do not.
Choke should be something learned I believe.. A skill...

[Aldiel]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

I think choke shouldn't even be a skill. It should be a command, for when you have someone subdued. If you stink at subdue, or they're really fast and you can't grab them to begin with, they're safe. But if, for instance, they're sleeping, you should be able to grab them (waking them up if they -can- be woken up) and choke the life out of them.

I don't agree.  I this would be awesome.  And I think having choke branch is an awesome idea.  Having a skill doesn't mean you can't do it if you don't have it, it just means you can't gain skill in it.  I could try to track with a warrior if I wanted to.

[Fragmented]

Picking up a sword and swinging it is not necessarily proper sword technique.

Spotting a footprint in the sand is not necessarily proper tracking technique.

What kind of technique could -possibly- be involved in choking someone? You're cutting off their air. Anybody and everybody in Zalanthas knows that breath is drawn through the mouth and the nose because they breath. Anybody and everybody would know that if you squeeze someone's throat, they cannot breathe. It's not a matter of technique. It should be something (not a skill) that anybody can use, with some modifiers such as strength being relevant.

Second of all, Warriors already have a billion ways to kill someone. They're soldiers, fighters, whatever they are, it doesn't involve finesse. My original thoughts on smothering/choking someone were for assassins, to give them a clean, quiet way to kill someone. So if -anybody- gets this as a skill, I think it should be assassins and -maybe- burglars.

To hell with warriors, and to hell with rangers. They're buff enough at killing. Given the difficulty of becoming accomplished at backstabbing, I think this would be a nice addition to assassins if not given to everyone.

[SpyGuy]

This would also be a great assassin skill.  I think it would benefit both classes.

Why have it as a skill?  Mainly so that you can choke a person while actively struggling with them.  Realistically I could try to wrestle with a person sure, and might even pin them for a moment.  But do I know how to put them in an efficient chokehold?  Hell no.

The way I see it, if the skill was automatic in situations like someone is passed out or can't resist then great, anyone can do it without failing.  And if someone is resisting a player with a higher strength or just luck might be able to successfully choke even if neither had the skill.  But if your victim is resisting then there should be some sacrifice (ie. a chance they break free) towards trying a choke manuever and making it a skill heavily modified by strength and/or size, with a chance at failure and the ability to improve makes it a lot more interesting and realistic than a simple command.

[Cenghiz]

What kind of technique could -possibly- be involved in choking someone? You're cutting off their air. Anybody and everybody in Zalanthas knows that breath is drawn through the mouth and the nose because they breath. Anybody and everybody would know that if you squeeze someone's throat, they cannot breathe.

Maybe you need the skill to break their arms first, so they cannot resist?

I don't know the general approach, but if someone tries to choke me, I would try to kick, fist, bite... anything to survive. But someone skilled in killing people bare-handed would know to hold me in the right position rendering me defenceless.
Go try punching an aikido practitioner. They may teach us all why choking, breaking bones... anything killing bare-handed requires skill.

Note: Still, I believe Aikido sucks.. Someone more skilled than I am would quickly kick their asses.

Cenghiz the Once Beaten in Past.

[Maybe42or54]

Add it to a subclass!

Thug. Mercenary.

Thugs strangle people, right?

[X-D]

Like the idea of choke.

Don't like it as a branched skill, period.

Simply, You subdue, you wish to attempt to choke, type the command, They can try to flee same as normal ETC.

If your skill or strength is low they get away, poof no choke.

Add in a str mod to stun damage and we are done.

Makes it easier for half-giants and muls to strangle little scrawny things, like elves, half-elves, humans. halfling and even dwarves.

Course, at times, Keeping ahold of that wiggly halfling or slick elf might be a problem.

Warriors, already having a great subdue skill would of course be the best at choking anyway.

Lets face it, choking somebody you have in a headlock does not take any great skill or training, its not a great secret passed down from one uber warrior to another.

Summery:

Choke command, Good.

Choke Skill, Bad.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with XD on this one. Choking should be race and class irrelevant.

[Synthesis]

I don't know if any of you have actually done any serious grappling, but choking someone out isn't simply a matter of grabbing them around the throat and squeezing.

It's actually very difficult to do it well enough such that your opponent will lose consciousness.

Airway chokes are almost completely ineffective, first of all.  You might be able to get a tired, inexperienced opponent to panic and tap out quickly, if you're strong enough, but an experienced fighter will just sit there and let you tire yourself out.  Trust me, no matter how strong you think you are, you probably can't maintain a maximum flex of your arm for the minute (or longer) it takes to completely knock someone out by obstructing their airway.  Eventually, you're going to get tired enough so that they can wriggle out.  And if you've been grappling for longer than a minute already, you won't even get close to knocking them out with an airway choke.  (Unless your opponent has given up their back, and you've got them in a sloppy figure-four...then you -might- be able to hang on until they pass out.)

Blood chokes are effective, but they take a great deal of skill and practice to do correctly.  A blood choke will knock someone out in 10-30 seconds, if it's completely 'set' in, but again, it's very difficult to do it correctly.  About the only way you can really get it is if your opponent gives up his back, and you get a good figure-four from behind.  This doesn't happen often, because most people instinctively fight to face toward you, protecting their back.

This is why you almost never see choke-outs in UFC or King of the Cage fights anymore.  They're almost impossible to set in, especially against an opponent who also knows what he's doing.  It's much easier to use joint manipulation or "ground and pound," because strength and skill advantage are much easier to capitalize on with these techniques.  

The Gracies had their  few years of domination using chokes, because it was a relatively new thing, but as soon as other fighters adapted to it, they became ineffective, because it really is pretty easy to protect against a choke, when you know what you're doing, or if you're struggling hard enough.

When we're talking about two relatively inexperienced combatants of roughly equal size, chokes are almost out of the question.  You might make your opponent out of breath with a choke, but you'll be making yourself just about equally tired in the process.  Obviously this doesn't apply if one fighter is significantly larger, stronger, or skilled.

The point of all this is to support the idea that a 'choke' shouldn't be something "anyone can do."  It's a very difficult thing to do correctly, and as such only experienced grapplers (those with a significant subdue skill) should be able to even get close to incapacitating a victim with a choke.  (And extremely strong individuals, such as muls and half-giants.)

However, I can see a special choke command added for assassins...'strangle,' which would use a special item (length of knotted cord or something) and allow them to start choking someone without a subdue, and without initiating combat.  Since this wouldn't initiate combat, it would be somewhat more powerful than sap, but having the same result (loss of stun points).  The victim would have to 'flee' out of it, with success based on the relationship between the assassin's 'strangle' skill, the victim's 'flee' skill, and the victim's base defense skill (with appropriate modifiers for strength and agility).  Since this would be such a powerful skill, it would branch from something...possibly sap.