Smother

[Supreme Allah]

I like the strangle idea Synthesis has proposed. He also seems well-informed on the matter of chokes, grappling, and so forth.

Assassins seem like such one-trick ponies. Give them something unique like this (it'd even be somewhat strength-based, which seems nice and different) that a subguild can't give and I think we might be onto something.

I wouldn't branch it from sap, though.

[SpyGuy]

Thanks for the detailed description Synthesis, my defense of choke as a skill is really based on the fact that it doesn't look easy to do.  That said I think the command should be usable by anyone, with or without the skill, but the skill would allow characters who aren't muls or halfgiants who can overpower with strength to improve at the skill to reflect serious training.  A grapple doesn't necessarily mean a chokehold or the power to easily knock out your opponent.

I also really like the idea of a strangle command.  The way I see it is being a lot like a subdue/choke combo where you immediately get your opponent in a grapple and begin draining stun.  Would be an awesome addition to stealth PCs.

[X-D]

Man, I've choked out people many times, And nearly been choked out before, by my -little- sister no less when she snuck up on me and got ahold. I was nearly out before real panic set in and I managed to lift her over my head, and then only because she was much smaller and younger then me.


No, choking is EASY in the extreme, it takes no skill.

Grappling and holding in order to choke is what takes the skill and strength.

In arm grappling is handled by the subdue SKILL. Adding the command to be able to choke a subdued person makes sense. Amount of stun damage done being based on subduer's STR verses subduee's END. This would decide how many chances you get to try and escape. If an elf warrior with very high subdue manages to subdue a mul it is going to take him a very long time to choke the mul to 0 stun. But if a mul managed to subdue the elf it would take only 2 or 3 tries at most. I think this would be accurate representation.

Also, though somebody without the skill can subdue (IE half-giants, muls) It is VERY easy to escape, specialy if the one being subdued has high AGI or the skill. Also, I think choke should COST Stam points to reflect the effort. This way, if somebody manages to escape they have a better chance of being able to run away...OR...if the subduing char is too week they run out of MV and simply cannot do it.

Again, Choking someone unconsious once they are physicly under your control is pretty damm easy to do and figure out, assuming you manage to KEEP them that way.

Even using Synthesis' examples, what we are still talking about here is the GRAPPLE side not the choke side. Again IRL and IG Grappling takes skill or simply HUGE size and str.

Also, Synthesis, Blood chokes are rather easy, and people even with rather low str can do it without much training if they get the jump on you are are willing to take a mild bit of damage for the short time it takes.
PLUS, if you do get somebody from behind, arm around and locked it cuts AIR and Blood, 30 seconds max.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Syn, you're typically well-informed and such, and I don't doubt that you've some knowledge in this as well.

But X-D is right. If you can subdue, the skill used to grapple, you can choke. It's really that simple, and seriously, it's not hard at all to choke someone out. It is seriously something based on strength versus endurance. Only well-muscled people, thick in the neck, like a strong dwarf or human, a very very strong elf, or a typical half-giant or mul, can hope to not get choked out without escaping the hold.

Choke should not be a skill that is restricted. If you are good enough to subdue, you should have access to choke.

[Synthesis]

X-D, like I said, if you get behind someone, it's easy to do both.

The problem is, subdue isn't a 'surprise' command.  It initiates what amounts to a grappling sequence, not jumping on someone's back and immediately grabbing their throat.  Furthermore, it's far too easy to 'subdue' someone, as long as you have the skill.  In all reality, only extremely skilled martial-artists can actually get someone in the type of hold 'subdue' represents on the game.  On the game, however, almost anyone can do it, if they try enough.  Having choke run an additional skill check adds an element of reality to the situation:  you need to know what you're doing to actually make somebody pass out.

Yes, -choking- is easy.  Choking someone to the point of unconsciousness is not.  I've done a lot of basic grappling in the Marine Corps, and I'm telling you, tap-outs on chokes almost never happen, except when one combatant is much stronger or much more skilled than the other.  Arm-bars, wrist-locks, ankle-locks, and other joint manipulations are much more common, because they're much easier to lock in.  Usually, grappling matches end with both fighters exhausted to the point of being practically incapacitated, within a couple of minutes.

And no, blood chokes are not easy to lock in, unless, like I said, you've already maneuvered around behind your opponent. (Even then, you have to know what you're doing, because you have to almost completely obstruct the flow of the carotid artery.  You can only do this by pressing your wrist bone directly onto the artery, or your forearm, if you're pretty skinny.)  "Subduing" someone doesn't necessarily mean you've maneuvered behind your opponent and have them in a figure-four headlock.  You could have them in a wrist lock, or an arm bar, or a dummy choke, or you could just be hanging on to their arms really well...it's not specific--certainly not specific enough to infer that you should be able to segue immediately to a blood choke.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's easy to lock in a blood choke, because it's simply not the case.  I -know- exactly how to do it, and I'm pretty strong, and I can almost never do it correctly, even if I do manage to get behind someone.  I've only seen a blood choke seriously locked in a handful of times (outside of watching old UFC fights), and this was by men who were pretty skilled and very strong.  There's no way your Average Joe would get into a brawl and manage to blood choke someone to the point of losing consciousness, unless the victim was already seriously incapacitated, significantly weaker, or significantly less skilled.

As you can see, it all keeps coming back to skill, skill, skill.  It's not a simple matter of getting the jump on someone and wrapping your arm around their throat.  If it were, it would happen frequently, but it just doesn't.

[X-D]

Alright, I'm pretty much done with this thread, unless something really new is said, But.

Synthesis, Even your own arguements point to grapling being the key, You simply CANNOT, choke someone till they pass out unless you CONTROL them physicly, You have not argued that.

The point is though CONTROL, In game, when somebody is subdued they are under the control of the subduer, they are under such SOLID control that if they do not break out, the subduer can drag them where ever he wants, he can throw them around he can even (key point here) Transfer control to other people *Without fail*. The person subdued also gets NO saves at all. Now this points to a pretty Solid amount of control, Enough that you can pretty much figure that both arms are pinned behind them and they have an arm around thier throat or some other hold leaving that person totally and completley defenseless.

As to RL descriptions and such, there is simply no way to prove one point or the other, Sure, you have been in the marines and talk of tap outs and such. I don't know about that. I know I'm a 200lbs 6 foot tall male in quite good shape, I know I used to fight ALOT, I know that I have been to jail for it so many times I had to move because all the CO's knew me by name when I walked in and even the judges were like "So, in front of me for the same thing?"

And I know, short of you driving to me or me driving to you, there is no way to prove one way or another, personal experiance simply proves nothing, I could be blowing smoke out my ass and be a 5' tall 122 lbs 16 year old who has been home schooled.

But, I DO know how grappling (subdue) Is represented in game. And if I could get to the web page I'd even quote the help file as I'm pretty sure it even states that a subdued person is totally helpless other then trying to escape. And Tell me that you don't think you could choke somebody rather easily if they were completley helpless under your control?

As to being too easy in game, Sure, it is, but often it is JUST as easy to break free. Hell, add in a little delay after on the choke command and anybody will have to be damm good at subdue before trying it cause if the victem breaks free, you just might be the one subdued and choked or they might simply draw weapons and attack knowing you are gonna be unarmed and unable to flee for say 5-10 seconds.

Again, I think that choke itself working off str verses end, no skill is accuratly represented in difficulty by the current Subdue skill. I see it as simply being FAR too powerful as a seperate branched skill not to mention that it simply is not something that hard to do, in and of itself.

Also, one last thing on the RL talk. I'm absolutly positive that if I can get somebody subdued that I *WILL* get my hands around their throat if I so wish and short of having a gun, they will be unable to remove them before they are choked out, I may take some damage, but it will happen.

[jmordetsky]

If we implemented this, does that mean that mudsexors would start subduing each other to do that asphyxia thing?

That said,

I can't take this thread seriously. The last thing I want to see in game are half giants  that can choke the life out of people by jump typing "subdue".

Realistically, yes, if you were grappling a 600 pound half-giant he would definitely be able to choke the fucking shit out you with his foot wide hands. Does that mean it would be playable? Fuck no.

[Tamarin]

Ya because half-giants are slow as shit, so they'd have a very hard time getting ahold of you in the first place.  Ever tried to pick up a serious wriggling dog or cat with one hand?  Yeah.  It's not easy.  Even with two.

[Maybe42or54]

Etwo marriage cord

strangle bitch-ass-lover-that-wants-to-ditch-you-for-another

Now, if anyone is pissed off, they can pretty much strangle anything else their same size or smaller.

[Rindan]

Personally, I think that subdue should get an overhaul.  I think that subdue should be broken up into two parts.  It should be broken up into the ability to grab someone and the ability to hold someone once grabbed.  

In terms of grabbing someone, the defense against subdue should be the same as the defense against any weapon attack.  If you have your weapons up, you should get the expected bonus.  Nothing is more irritating then having a mercenary warrior of death who can go toe to toe with half-giant wielding a two handed maul of death get subdued.  If you can't hit the guy with a weapon, you shouldn't be able to grab him with your bare hands.  As it stands, against a massively skilled warrior, a half-giant is more of a danger when he doesn't have a weapon then when he does.  That is simply wrong.  Make the defense against subdue the same as any weapon attack.  Make what determines if you grab someone based upon the subdue skill and agility.

Once someone is grabbed, THEN strength should take over.  The stronger you are, the hard it is for someone get away.  The defense to get out of a subdue once in it should be strength and the flee skill.  An elf in the hands of a half-giant should be properly fucked.  A half-giant in the hands of an elf should tear the elf's head off.  Once a half-giant has his hands on you, you should be in some deep shit unless you are a half-giant or mul.  The savings grace is that it would be a lot easier to avoid getting into the hands of a half-giant or mul in the first place.

Under this sort of system, choke would work perfectly.  Once someone has you under their control, they can start to choke you.  Choke would start knocking off movement points depending upon the attackers strength and the defenders endurance.  If you don't like being choked, the wise thing to do would be to start spamming flee before it is too late.

So, an elf might be able to grab and start choking you easier then he can now, but most people would easily break free long before they were in any danger.  A half-giant would have a much harder time grabbing your elf, but once he did grab your elf you would be completely fucked as your chances of getting away would be slim to none.

[Synthesis]

Fine, you think it's easy, I think it's hard.  There's really no way to resolve that disagreement, but I think I've provided substantially better reasoning to support my claim that it is difficult.

"Control" in a fight is a relative thing.  You can choke people without necessarily being in a "controlling" position. (A triangle choke, for example, or a redneck choke.)  Under these circumstances, you can be choking your opponent while they're pounding your face, or actually picking you up and dropping you on your head...it just depends.  I'm not saying that it's going to be a -good- choke under those circumstances, but you will have a part of your body around their throat, for what it's worth.

What actually happens in the game, codewise, isn't really a strong position to argue from.  The subdue command is wonky, and trying to use that wonkiness as part of your argument significantly decreases its effectiveness.  I'm trying to argue from the perspective of realism.  And realism says "getting someone under that kind of control is very difficult, at best."

Oh, and all these considerations are based on opponents of equal size and strength!  If you start taking these factors into account, the reasoning gets extremely messy.  Hence the ceteris paribus simplification.  Code tweaks regarding size, strength, agility, skill, and the rest can all be debated after the primary issue is settled.

I don't really care how big you are, or how many fights you've gotten in, except as it provides some evidence of your knowledgability.  The fact that you've been in a number of fights doesn't cinch up the truth of your premises.  It adds a little credibility, perhaps, but from what I've seen of the rest of your argument, you don't know precisely what you're talking about, theoretically, when it comes to fighting.  Maybe you're a good fighter...fine, some people just get it naturally.  But you don't seem to have a great deal of technical knowledge, and since we're talking code here, technical knowledge of the mechanics of combat is a must, since that's what we're trying to accurately depict.

The fact that it's easy to break free from a subdue does nothing to mitigate the fact that it's easy to accomplish the subdue in the first place.  Again, the subdue code is wonky.  If we're going to add functionality to the subdue command, by adding another maneuver to it (especially a maneuver as dangerous and potentially deadly as a choke-out), I'd rather this maneuver be difficult to perform, to reflect the fact that, realistically, the entire -sequence- of combat, from the initial clinch, to the grappling, to the takedown, to the manipulation, to the choke is a process that is difficult to master, and difficult to succeed at, when your opponent is equally matched.  Right now, two warriors can have equally matched subdue skills, but the subdue goes to whoever types subdue first.  Now, if subdue were changed to reflect the fact that grappling is a process, I can see everyone being able to use the command--because most people would never get to the manipulation stage of the process.  However, as is, it's simply too dangerous an ability to give to anyone who can successfully whip off a subdue.

I don't see how it would be far too powerful as a separate branched skill.  Grappling is the province of warriors.  Warriors are supposed to be the masters of combat.  Only excellent warriors would be able to do this, which would limit its power by effectively distributing it to a small segment of the subduing population.  -Not- being branched, on the other hand, would allow everyone to do it, which would make it too powerful...so I don't really think your argument is supporting your position here.

Again, to the realism.  I'm fairly sure that, if you got your hands around another 200 lb. man's throat, he would break your fingers, gouge your eyes out, rip your ears off, tear your cheek, break ribs...any -number- of things before you managed to choke him out with your hands around his neck.  (That's actually one of the worst ways to choke someone, and one of the easiest chokes to escape from.)  You might've been able to manhandle people in the fights you've been in, because 6 ft, 200 lbs is fairly above average.  But if you were up against someone the same size in control of all his faculties, he would force you to let go long before a minute had passed.  (This is assuming that you didn't take him completely by surprise.  But we're talking about straight grappling here, not surprise attacks.)

So, all in all, I don't think your argument is very effective at all, and you need to clarify exactly what you're talking about, or at least provide some kind of support for your assertion that choking someone is easy.  I think I've gone fairly out of my way to explain in great detail the various reasons why it IS NOT EASY...so until you can come up with something better than "Dude, I've done it, man. It's totally easy," I'll rest my case here.

[X-D]

Quick point or two, sorry, couldn't stay away.

Realistically, yes, if you were grappling a 600 pound half-giant he would definitely be able to choke the fucking shit out you with his foot wide hands. Does that mean it would be playable? Fuck no

600 pounds is not a half-giant, it is closer to mul, min HG weight is around 1400 pounds Top end around 1800-2000 pounds.

Wiggling puppies are VERY easy to grab and hold if you don't care about hurting it or it biting you.

Half-giants are slow in the head, and not agil do to mass, but take a look at ANY hugely muscled animal and you will find that they are all VERY fast, blindingly so at times. I'd love to watch anybody try and dodge a swat from a 1800lbs grizzly, Grizzlies swat 30lbs samon from the water, lets see you do it., or a kick from a horse I've seen them lift both rear feet and kick 2-3 times before they land back on the ground, Hell, Brama bulls are huge massive muscled animals and look what they do in a rodeo.
Go to a Zoo or watch a wildlife show with silverback gorrillas, big 600-800lbs male, they are FAST when pissed..and probly nearly as bright as a zalanthas HG.

Yes yes, I know that has been hashed and rehashed so many times its not even funny, but shit, I *know* that if I'm in a room with a 600 pound Bengal tigar, or gorrilla or bear and it is within 20 feet and it wants to maul me, and all I have is a sword, Shit, I'm gonna be mauled, and so would ANY other human.

[SpyGuy]

X-D:  Sorry if I missed your point and I agree, big wild animals are fast and dangerous.  But that isn't a half-giant, it's an animal.  The files aren't up but half giants are specifically slow, they have low agilities and it's reflected in how they fight.  I have no problems with halfgiants being awesome subduers, I imagine it would be hard for someone to escape from one leaping at them and grabbing them into a tight bearhug or whatever manuever a lumbering monster would try.

The main reason I want to see choke as a skill (heavily modified by strength/size to allow any HG or strong mul to possibly do it and usable without having branched) is so that it doesn't become too powerful.  The way I understand choke working not as a skill is that warrior A subdues Ranger B.  Warrior A can then freely (or with loss of MV points in some versions) choke Ranger B until he passes out or Ranger B successfully flees from the subdue.  But as long as Ranger B is subdued he's automatically going to be able to be choked with no real loss to Warrior A.

Having choke as a skill would mean that Warrior A could then fail the skill and in attempting to get a chokehold would allow Ranger B to escape.  Unless Warrior A had a large enough strength/size bonus to his choke skill to guarantee success he would seriously have to weigh the option of using the skill because of the drawbacks.  But as he improved with the skill over time he could use it with relative certainty, but the victim would still have a chance to escape through fleeing.

What I'd hate to see is that every subdue attempt turns into the attacker spam choking while the victim spam flees.  It shouldn't be a given that a subduer can begin choking you successfully, it should be a moderately difficult skill to master and one that the victim will really fear when used successfully.  As it stands now I'm pretty sure a person with the subdue skill can easily get another PC that doesn't have the skill in a hold and maintain that hold through multiple flee attempts.  I don't want to see those brand new warriors also being able to choke out PCs as well.

[X-D]

Ugh, Synthesis, your post went in before mine:)

Right now, two warriors can have equally matched subdue skills, but the subdue goes to whoever types subdue first

Wrong on that point, and thinking so makes me think that you have relatively low experiance with the skill in game. Code wise, two human warriors with near equal time on subdue skill will most likley bounce. The code does take in consideration of the skill of each in subdue before size and strength, there are other factors as well. I've played many warriors of many races and when matched equally while practicing subdue we normaly get a whole string of you try but he slips away messages before managing, and then on escaping the skill is taken in there also, for both parties. And usually the subdued warrior can escape the first try then its on to a bunch of fails between the two.

But I've had new STRONG dwarf warriors subdued by weak half-elf warriors with a lot of play time and been unable to escape.

I've played Half-giants without the skill at all and even though they usually can subdue a human warrior on the first try, that warrior can normaly slip the hold the first try also.

I submit that the subdue code is in fact NOT wonky, that it works quite well.

A command to choke would, as I said only need a few mods, delay after, hell, even a short delay before would be fine, and checks on str verses end to decide effectiveness of the choking followed by a stamina cost.
This, combined with the subdue code would quite accuratly reproduce realistic effects.
People SKilled in the art of grappling would automaticly be skilled in choking, those who are not would be far less so.

I don't see how it would be far too powerful as a separate branched skill. Grappling is the province of warriors. Warriors are supposed to be the masters of combat. Only excellent warriors would be able to do this, which would limit its power by effectively distributing it to a small segment of the subduing population. -Not- being branched, on the other hand, would allow everyone to do it, which would make it too powerful...so I don't really think your argument is supporting your position here.

Only good warriors would be able to "successfully" do it in most cases anyway, Or people without the subdue skill itself but overmatching the opponent in other ways, which again would be an accurate reflection of realism.

Again, to the realism. I'm fairly sure that, if you got your hands around another 200 lb. man's throat, he would break your fingers, gouge your eyes out, rip your ears off, tear your cheek, break ribs...any -number- of things before you managed to choke him out with your hands around his neck. (That's actually one of the worst ways to choke someone, and one of the easiest chokes to escape from.) You might've been able to manhandle people in the fights you've been in, because 6 ft, 200 lbs is fairly above average. But if you were up against someone the same size in control of all his faculties, he would force you to let go long before a minute had passed. (This is assuming that you didn't take him completely by surprise. But we're talking about straight grappling here, not surprise attacks.)

Again, there is no real way to prove this other then actually trying it out.
Theory will only get you so far. I've boxed quite a bit when I was younger, I found though that even if your boxing skills and theory are good, this does you basicly no good on the street, other then fitness and ability to take some pain.

But, Most people even my size panic, they are less then skilled in mind or body even if my size. Eye gouges mostly only work if the person is not prepared to take a bit of pain, it is more a psychological move then anything, people are trained to protect their eyes, but the fact is, your eyes are actually quite hard to damage. Break ribs? Thats almost silly at that range. Break fingers, doubtful, least in my case, there are certain bonuses to having been a roofer for 14 years, one is extremely strong forearms (IE, fingers and hands) Also, if I'm going for a choke from the front, you come in low and fast looking to try and grasp waist, Stand quickly, bringing your head up fast, if they stay leaned over then they get the back of your head in the face hard (very messy I might add) Many will straighten or in some manner try to avoid, this leaves inside opening for hands to neck, Grasp tightly using the POINT of the thumbs below the voicebox if possible Bring self in close thereby minimizing strength of blows and attempt to push the tips of your thumbs through that little divit under the voicebox. The nice thing about this method of choking is that it damages the trachea and keeps it centered back in the neck allowing pressure to the arteries, Time to them not being able to think well enough to fight in any realistic manner is short, 15-20 seconds, time to KO, 35-60 seconds.

Now, Damaged ears, probly, damaged face, probly that too, but if I'm going in, I'm prepared for that. I never once said I would not take damage:)

Now, as to somebody say, oh 100 pounds heavier then me, Heh, if I can't get them by suprise and from behind, I'm not going to attempt it.

Also, the Theory behind grappling/brawling, Heh, Do to them before they do to me. Translated to game, Hope I type subdue/backstab/sap/kill/uber spell of doom before they do.

No joke though there folks, 90% of the fights I've been in were over very quickly and depended on who lands the first good blow or who knocks down who first. And if you ever watch any of the ultimate fighting, Heh, thats normaly how that goes as well.

And lastly, on Synthesis post.
Choking itself IS easy, there is nothing at all complicated about it. ::Theory behind choke, Cut off air and or blood untill person passes out...Possible methods..One..Pressure to the neck in some manner::
There Simple...now
For the Third-Fifth time now, its the grappling, getting and maintaning control while doing it that is the hard part

Rindan, Man, it already does seperate the two, Really, it does.

Spyguy, I'm with you on that point. And so, again, why not just have that chance that while choking, you fail, do no damage, still get the lag after and stam loss and they have say, of 50% chance of escaping on a fail.
Success or failure would still be based on subdue skill/strength/size.

Look, I'm simply against it being an actual branched skill because it would mean that a very few people would be EXTREMLEY powerful with it and nobody else would have it or any defense really, OR it would be nerfed to the point of uselessness like certain other skills coughkickcough.

Plus, without it being a skill, that leaves more to doubt.
warrior A subdues ranger B, Ranger B happens to have sub with subdue.
Ranger B easily breaks free, subdues warrior A, Warrior fails to break free, ranger B chokes warrior A, warrior says SHIT, manages to escape and says fuck that, UBER warrior weapon skills to work!!! Bash, disarm disarm maim.

And honestly, I like leaving more to doubt, mix it up, merchant/guard might be able to turn the tables on that would be mugger;)

[SpyGuy]

I'm really replying to this thread too much but it's just because I love the idea   :wink:

Ok X-D, I see your point.  I feel there are certain advantages to it being branched but with the proper setup it could work under subdue.  Off the top of my head here's what I think it would need to be fair.

Choke:
- Victim must be subdued by the attacker first before being used
- It is based primarily off of the subdue skill and strength/size modifiers
- When the attacker attempts a choke there is a new subdue check with some moderate penalties, if the attacker fails then the victim is released
- Using the choke command costs some movement, (5-10?) reflecting the drain it takes in an extended grapple
- There is a normal command delay, same as kick or bash, to using the choke command to give time for emotes and/or the victim to flee

The main reason why I don't like it being linked to subdue is perhaps it would be too powerful then, especially since it is a more advanced manuever than a simple hold.  That said if the choke command worked off the subdue skill, but included some decent penalties as well, it would make it for better balance issues.  I don't mind the idea of a 5 day warrior who has practiced subdue extensively being able to take down a ranger without the skill by choking them.  But I'd like to make sure that a ranger or anyone has a good chance of breaking from a choke attempt by a new or unskilled warrior.  The idea, imho, is to have a new way to knock out a victim other than wildly barehanding them into unconsciousness.  I don't want choke to become the new, preferred way to PK.

That said:  Is it possible to subdue an armed combatant who has nosave off?  I'll admit to not having extensively explored the skill and I've forgotten what I did learn about it with some warriors.  I just really hope to never see Warrior A out in the desert sheathing his weapons to subdue Ranger B and then choking him out, when Ranger B had his axes drawn but couldn't do a damn thing about it  :roll:

[XD being lazy]

Ooops, Alright, that is one part of subdue I admit to being wonky.

And that how easy it is to subdue somebody who is standing up with weapons ready and take no damage for it -if- successful.

But that has been the issue of many past threads on the subject.