The Inevitable Poll on Karma

[Cenghiz]

Just one thing to keep in mind. There _is_ always a staff member. When I started playing this game, I often played when nobody with a few off-peak players were online. Still I remember days with every NPC I met animated, every room had echoes and weird things that only staff members can do happened.
If there are 8 people and one immortal, the immortal perhaps finds 10 mins to watch you. If there are 64 people and 4 immortals, one of the immortals may find five mins to watch you.. Off peak hours are sometimes best to be watched by the immortals.
And I forgot to criticize only one thing about karma.
I would feel much better if every time I was branded by a bad note, I also got a quick MUDmail describing what I have done wrong... Say, I had got a note "He plays elves like running humans." but still don't know what I have done wrong.. Was I too much into trade with Kurac? It was because I saved a human from the gith ambushing? I was keeping too much money with me? It was because of my spice habbit? Trying to trick Allanaki militia to get more profit from some vital information I've got was risking my tribe? Or shouldn't I ever have contacted with the militia at first not to mess with roundears? That half-elf was too close to me? etc. etc..... What was the mistake? Sorrily I saw that note after long time has passed and I can say a middle-sized melon has a stronger memory then I have. I could never learn what I did wrong.

[flurry]

While of course it isn't perfect, I think the karma system is necessary and works well.

It's necessary to keep the more challenging and abusable roles limited to the more experienced and trustworthy players.   That makes a lot of sense to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems to work.   On the whole, the karma characters I run into seem to handle their roles well.   In my personal experience with karma, it has seemd to be very fair.  I can tell you (and some of you know) I'm not going to be the most scintillating jaw-droppingly amazing emoter.   When I first started playing, I thought that's what you needed to get karma.  I know better now, and I agree with Seeker that time is an important factor.  Not necessarily time in any given character (although I think that helps demonstrate consistency), but time enough playing the game for the staff to see what your tendencies are as a player.

If you've been playing actively for the better part of a year and haven't received any karma yet, I'd suggest requesting your account notes and possibly writing a polite email to the mud to try to get a sense of what you could do better.  But be willing to work on it.   Don't assume that you have it all figured out, because you probably don't.

Lastly, I'd just add that there are things you can work on outside of roleplaying that can't hurt.   Someone else mentioned sending in updates.   Be responsible.  Don't just flake out and disappear.   Be patient.  Be polite.  Those kinds of things, while OOC, probably have some impact on trust too.

[Jarod550]

Instead of taking on a self-defeatist attitude and trying to play the victim, why not strive for improvement?  Don't post on the GDB about how you'll never get karma, how you're constantly overlooked, etc, etc.  Work on developing and enriching your PCs' lives and interacting with the world around them.  Learn more about the world and its societies.  Prove all the people wrong who think that you can't do it.  Don't just reject the advice that experienced Armers give you, and give some of it a try.  Figure out what works and what doesn't.  There have been plenty of people who have come in and felt like you, and some of them have gone on to become some outstanding roleplayers.  If you truly love this game, aim to join the ranks of those who have transcended "noobness" and become a better roleplayer.

They are all perfect already...

Jarod

[moab]

Jarod550

I thought you promised to stop posting?  Man!

Why do you think any of the gamers here bother to post on this form, responding to issues you raise?

Because we're bored?  Because we like to think we're better than you?  

Come on, man....we're all just playing a game.  Get over your insecurity and just play the game, listen to others, open your mind and reeeee-lax.

Good luck, bro.

[Cuusardo]

They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

[Jarod550]

They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

My characters

And I said this is the last topic I'm posting to, you guys keep it going.

Jarod

[bloodfromstone]

I would feel much better if every time I was branded by a bad note, I also got a quick MUDmail describing what I have done wrong...

I would like this as well. I haven't checked my notes in, well, ever actually, but it would be nice to know what I'm doing wrong and why it's not acceptable. I'm definitely in favor of constructive critisim. And the extra little MUDmail would make the bad note seem more helpful and less like a thumb of the nose.

[Akaramu]

Just one thing to keep in mind. There _is_ always a staff member. When I started playing this game, I often played when nobody with a few off-peak players were online. Still I remember days with every NPC I met animated, every room had echoes and weird things that only staff members can do happened.

I played off peak, a leadership role in a clan, and in 3 months the only one time I saw a clan NPC animated was when I specifically woke up at 3 AM to hit peak time and have a meeting with the NPC then.

I also never saw any other NPC animated at the time.

I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, the other IMMs.  What's been said, Akaramu, is that there are IMMs and you are more likely to be watched when there are fewer people to watch.  Also, just because you had few House NPC animations come your way doesn't mean you weren't being watched...and probably only means that your clan IMM(s) weren't around during your normal play times.  That doesn't mean that others weren't.

[flurry]

I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

Okay, but I don't think it's possible for every single clan to have an immortal to suit every player's hours, peak or off-peak.

[Moofassa]

Karma is perfect. Suck it up.



------

This is where we beg Jarod to stay and post.... I think..

[ale six]

I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

I think it's unfair to make statements like this, because honestly we as players have no idea who is watching us at any time or what they may or may not know. Just because npc animations don't happen frequently doesn't mean we aren't being watched. And I can only assume that staff would know to consult with the immortals of a clan before making judgements about the actions of a PC in that clan. As flurry said, it's unreasonable to expect that each clan staff will be able to monitor players at all times.

[jmordetsky]

Even if you are not being watched you can get Karma. Email the mud with a previously well documented character and the staff will make a point to review your request. I really don't understand where this "karma is unfair" attitude comes from. If you don't get the Karma, the staff will most definitely tell you why.

[Morfeus]

I played off peak, a leadership role in a clan, and in 3 months the only one time I saw a clan NPC animated was when I specifically woke up at 3 AM to hit peak time and have a meeting with the NPC then.

I also never saw any other NPC animated at the time.

I think number of NPCs animated doesn't say anything about being or not being watched. Perhaps there was IMM watching, but didn't feel any need to animate NPC?

[armplayer]

They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

My characters

And I said this is the last topic I'm posting to, you guys keep it going.

Jarod

I am new to the game, but I highly doubt that anyone's roleplaying is perfect. If this isn't what you meant, Im sorry.

[Akaramu]

Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I never said that lack of NPC animations means I'm not being watched. Never ever. I was only replying to Cenghiz' argument about NPC animations.

[ale six]

Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I don't think anecdotes like this form a basis to criticize the system. Again, we can't expect clan staff to watch their players at times they can't be online. Off peak players can, as you demonstrated, email in logs to show what they've been up to, and then possibly receive karma, if it's deserved.

[spawnloser]

Akaramu, just because your clan IMM told you that you didn't do something just means that your clan IMMs didn't see you...and weren't told that you did by other IMMs that were watching you.  Possibly those other IMMs never paid attention to your doing that thing because they didn't think it was important?

[Akaramu]

How about we get back on subject instead of picking my post apart? It doesnt matter, but I feel I had reason to assume I was watched quite little considering the role I played, and felt a bit left alone, and I dont consider it necessary to explain why. It was only an example of why the karma system is so much biased towards the problem of time. And we already agreed that it is much better than not having karma at all.

Of course we cant expect imms to watch at times they are not online. But this system just happens to favor the players who have long-lived PCs in the right clan with the right imm who is active when they are.

[Rindan]

But this system just happens to favor the players who have long-lived PCs in the right clan with the right imm who is active when they are.

I am not picking you apart, but this is not my experience.  In every single instance that I got karma except for one, I received it when I was not in a clan.  I am not saying that being in a clan doesn't hurt, but it certainly is not required.  I don't want people to come away thinking that if they play independent characters that they are screwed.  Perhaps karma accumilates slow, but it certainly comes.

Now, being long lived does help, but this is by design.  If every time you take over your PCs life and he goes from being a VNPC to a PC, he dies within a few days, that is probably a sign that you are playing very risky characters, or are not considering the risks your character takes realistically.

The other issue with playing short lived characters is that you can not show consistency.  A large part of role playing is having your character play consistently.  That isn't to say that you can't change over time due to the events that surround your character.  Changing over time just shows growth and change, not a lack of consistency.  You just need to show that if you say sit down to play a 'rinther, you can achieve that sort of personality without getting bored and deciding that you 'rinth rat wants to run out into the desert and go scrab hunting.

[path]

That whole... "This will get you karmas or that will.." is, in my opinion, super bogus. If you want karmas.. play a long lived, compelling character and get something done. Actually, play several of that sort.

I'm a big fan. I especially like the plural.

I also wanted to add that I'm satisfied with nearly every karma-based character I see and that's a big sign to me that the system is running smoothly. Kudos to the the suspicions of the staff. Less is heh.. apparently more. If you feel you've really, honest to God tried every concievable character concept available to you, maybe special app?

[Attana]

I've been playing for a year and a half, have VERY little karma, one point, and am still learning.  I also don't post jack shit on the boards, unless I'm clanned, or just messing around.  I don't really care about recieving karma points, though they'd be good to have... I'm perfectly content in playing what limited options I already have.  It gives me a chance to learn more about the game, and strengthen my RP skills for when I do have the karma to play the more difficult choices.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I have karma and I've threatened to leave twice, even wrote a nasty email to all of the staff members on a whim, I'd say that the system isn't flawless, but I have to go with the staff's opinion.

My longest living char was around 8 days I believe, that's part of my problem of not attaining karma, the other part was my witty and hasty remarks, I've learned that it benefits to take things slow.

I do seem to have a problem with special apps, but that's a whole different thread.

To sum all that up, karma system is good, even though I've been a bad boy every now and then, the staff are very forgiving and IMHO? Awesome.

Thanks.

[sarahjc]

Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I never said that lack of NPC animations means I'm not being watched. Never ever. I was only replying to Cenghiz' argument about NPC animations.

First up, you are sighting very specific things, which makes me think that you have a central, personal grievance. The Staff commented me on spamming "this" when I always emote it except for maybe this one day when they were watching me. It's unfair...

But you are right, most likely the staff is not watching you all the time. Most likely they are not watching you 95% of the time. We have something along the lines of 40-60 players at peak times and maybe 5-10 Imms on at those times.

On off peak, I can only imagine that we have less than 20 players on and maybe 4 or less Imms on.  Yes there is a good chance that you may not be getting watched too much.

Also think about the kind of life your PC is leading and how you are role playing it out.  Are you playing an interesting PC? Are you a dynamic part of something? When you are alone, do you make the most of Solo emoting?

The things that will Garner you Karma, are the things that will make other players want to be around your PC.  There are plenty of off peak players that have a good deal of Karma.

It is all about Time, Trust and Good RP not the hours that you play on.

[LoD]

Now, being long lived does help, but this is by design.  If every time you take over your PCs life and he goes from being a VNPC to a PC, he dies within a few days, that is probably a sign that you are playing very risky characters, or are not considering the risks your character takes realistically.

The other issue with playing short lived characters is that you can not show consistency.  A large part of role playing is having your character play consistently.  You just need to show that if you say sit down and...achieve a personality without getting bored and deciding to run out into the desert and go scrab hunting.

This is a really great point.  As has been mentioned many times, much of earning karma has to do with a consistent and realistic approach to playing your character over time.  Some people believe that this means you have to sit in a tavern and avoid any of what they consider the "fun stuff" in order to have a long life, and that's just not true.

Syntax experience is quickly learned (just like buttons on a video game) and will allow you to survive a fair amount of encounters, but this really blossoms when you add maturity and a realistic approach to the character's daily activities, choices and motivations.

Part of being consistent is avoiding the could vs. should temptation.

For example, we could:

:arrow: Be attacked to near death, sleep for 10 mins and act fine.
:arrow: Spar for 30 minutes straight.
:arrow: Hunt every IC day regardess of fatigue, injury or overhunting.
:arrow: Sneak away when someone is talking to you.
:arrow: Rationalize our PC knowing something that a past PC learned.
:arrow: Act differently around PC's than we do around NPC's.
:arrow: PK someone when we know they are LD and comprimised.

But for most cases we shouldn't.

We shouldn't because our goal in playing should be to have fun while maintaining the integrity of the gameworld and staying true to the spirit of Armageddon as we add our line, paragraph, chapter or volume to the every growing story of Zalanthas.

Doing the things listed above can cheapen not only your story, but the  experience of others.  Consider the choices you make with your next character and see if you are truly adding and bettering the story by playing a consistent and realistic character.  If you are, chances are that you will see karma before too long.

-LoD