The Inevitable Poll on Karma

[Anonymous]

Okay, then I just won't post so much anymore, and just play, then there won't be any snide remarks to read, in fact, this is my last topic I'm posting to.

Jarod

ps.  See you in game

Actually, you might find this is a good idea for reducing the frustration factor. I've been trying, although as you can see, not quite successfully yet.

Jarod, just don't worry about karma. The races and classes it opens up may be new and exciting, but they're also way more limited to play. You really can have just as much fun or more with the basic races and classes, and without the feeling in the back of your mind that someone is watching you all the time, so that as soon as you mess up just once it will all go away.

I've always been unsure about the communication wall between the staff and players. Once in a while (at least in the past) Nessalin would appear to chew you out. It wasn't fun, but at least you learned something about how you were expected to play. Being evaluated without feedback is a clumsy tool for building RP quality. If a storyteller is about to put a black mark on your record, why should he or she be able to take you aside at a quiet time and talk to you about it? Preferably in a polite way, of course.

[Anonymous]

Previous post correction: "why shouldn't he or she"

[Malifaxis]

Sometimes the GDB sucks.

Sometimes the GDB rocks.

Sometimes you get accepted.

Sometimes you get declined.



Do what you have to, Jarod, to enjoy the game.

[bloodfromstone]

The karma system is, in theory, great. It falls short every now and then in application, but there is nothing that can be done about this. It works as good as anything can, and I'm fine with it. I do feel that certain players and player-types (Imm-pets, as someone called them) have easier access to karma, but it isn't, as far as I know, as insidious as it seems at a glance. Simply put, players who get into larger roles have more imm interaction, via e-mailing reports, NPC animation, and just the general over-the-shoulder watching that leader types and other important roles require. This leads to more karma, not because the staff is being unfair, but because they can only see so much and be in so many places at once.

There are, of course, exceptions. I'm sure a fair bit of karma has been given for foragers who can paint an amazing picture of the role, etc, but this, from my experience, is generally how it stands.

[Cale_Knight]

Karma is nice to see, but it doesn't play a big role in my character creation.

Almost all of my favorite, most long-lived, influential and successful characters have been a non-karma race/class combination.  There are a million potential roles I have yet to play within the starting class/race combinations.

-LoD

This is worth repeating. The funnest roles for me, by far, are those which allow for the most player interaction. And those roles are hands-down those which require no karma to play.

-Supreme Allah

This is also the kind of thing that means absolutely nothing to those newbies who have no karma and would really, really like some. It's like the rich man who leans out of his limo and tells the poor man on the street that money will just make him unhappy.

It's also the kind of thing you're only in a position to say once you've had the chance to dabble in the more powerful roles, something your average newbie is going to have to wait literally years to do.

Not that the statement is necessarily untrue - it simply holds zero meaning for everyone except those who have enough experience to agree.

edit: I picked the middle option, though the perfect one for me would have said "I think the system is just fine, but I sure would like a few more points."

[bloodfromstone]

That was very well said, Cale_Knight, and a good point.

Also keep in mind that constantly seeing pages and pages of blank race/guild types upon creation is a reminder that the staff either overlooks you or doesn't trust you. I'm sure it can be a source of frustration, regardless of whether or not the player wants to play a mindbending mul sorcerer.

[Dakurus]

The karma system isn't perfect.
It certainly wasn't designed to meet every possible objective, and even the objectives it does address, it doesn't always address fully and fairly. That said, any system run by humans, which oddly enough the staffers are, isn't perfect.

As a player gains karma, new classes and races are opened up for play. Do they know how to play these races... no, likely not. They may have seen some good examples, they may not have, but they have proven themselves in the eyes of the staff in some measure, to allow them the chance, if they wish, to attempt to play these new roles. If they play them poorly, and even after suggestions and comments, they still do so, it's very possible that the class/race may be revoked, possibly karma lost. This can happen with folks who just can't understand the mentality of a desert elf, the intrinsic qualities of a specific type of magicker, or whatever.

Karma is not something hard and fast. It's subjective. As people have stressed time and time again, it almost always implies a level of trust. I'm not sure what people think of when they say, "imm-pets", or when people point out that it's easier to earn karma in a clan as they are generally watched. But often there is a bit of truth in most fictious statements. Characters who are given responsibilites, or take it, and do it in a non-abusive manner are likely to be more trusted. Those who "get it", and interact with a text world, in a manner that shows they understand there are vnpcs, tribes, cultures, weather, that you tire, bleed, hurt, have emotions, and all the rest. People who are helpful and cordial in their communications, looking to understand and further the game.  Are these people perfect? Far from it.

Truth is, it's a lot harder to lose karma then get it. Over time, most folks, if only by asking and collecting no flak, acquire karma. There are a number of people with karma that are perfectly happy playing the basic class/races, which I tend to agree with. Hopefully there will always be new people joining this game, and therefore people with less karma. But I have a feeling that if a study was done, we'd discover that if we killed everybody tomorrow, the next day, _many_ folks could all start up a desert elf or magicker.

[Medena]

This is also the kind of thing that means absolutely nothing to those newbies who have no karma and would really, really like some. It's like the rich man who leans out of his limo and tells the poor man on the street that money will just make him unhappy.

It's also the kind of thing you're only in a position to say once you've had the chance to dabble in the more powerful roles, something your average newbie is going to have to wait literally years to do.

I don't know about this.  When I had just started playing here I remember thinking (as I read a GDB thread about karma) that I didn't really care if I ever got karma because all the roles that appealed to me were zero karma.

[cut to a couple of years and a few karma points later]

While it does feel good to know I have earned the trust of the staff and is thrilling to know I -could- play some roles if I wanted... I still feel basically the same. The fact is, I have yet to play a karma-required role.

[Cale_Knight]

Oh, my other problem with the karma system is a picky one. I hate that the one-point karma option is desert elf.

I doubt I'll ever play a desert elf. It's a role that brings with it a lot of solo RP, and that's not what I go in for. So when I got that first point and saw the new option available, it was entirely anticlimactic.

But that's a nitpicky thing, and not an entirely serious complaint.

Really looking forward to that second point, though!

[Anonymous]

Well... why not set up a training server, then? Let people log in as what they want, with some skills buffed up, and practise with each other. Loosen the rule about ooc communication to the extent that people can advsie each other about role play. Maybe once someone's had a taste of what it's like playing a slow, ponderous half-giant that always realizes the point of what was being said far too late, they'll not feel as excluded.

[LauraMars]

Really looking forward to that second point, though!

Oh yeah.  I completely agree with everything you said.  This is one of my only miffs about karma, and it's totally teeny.  I'm not so interested in d-elves.  I wish they interacted with the main playerbase more or I'd be all over it, 'cause the concept is neat and I have some ideas.  Point two has got it going on.  A completely new code and abilities to roleplay with and discover.

I'm having fun with my completely karmaless characters, by the way.  And could continue doing so.  It's just that karma is like ice cream.  You don't need to have it to enjoy your delicious meal of spagetti, but it is yummy.  Also you can keep it in the freezer and forget about it until you really want it.

[ale six]

I think the single biggest problem with it is the fact that it sort of feels like players are being "ranked", and judge themselves (and possibly their peers) based on this 0-8 scale of karma-to-no-karma. I think a lack of karma could undermine a player's confidence in themselves and in this game or its staff simply because their efforts weren't noticed, or possibly because the things they did wrong were just never pointed out to them.

I don't see how you can look at karma as a ranking system. You may know how much karma -you- have, but that doesn't tell you much about anyone else. And really, I think most people would know the reasons for whatever their karma level is. Have you been playing long? Are you still getting over some bad account notes? Have most of your roles been independent or had little cause for observation? Did your longest lived character last one week? And if you don't know, you can always email the staff and ask. You may have just been overlooked, in which case it can be corrected.

For the most part I wouldn't look at an 8-karma player and think they were better or worse than me simply because of their karma level. I also wouldn't consider myself any better a player than a 0-karma player just because I had a few points. Somebody with 8 karma is probably just a player who's been around a lot longer than I have and has proved they don't do stupid or twinky things. Somebody with 0 karma is probably either just new, hasn't been noticed, or is still 'getting' the game. Since karma isn't directly related to roleplaying ability either, I don't think it'd be a good thing to rank yourself on compared to other players.

I imagine other players feel some of these things as well, though there's a certain fear present (that few or none here will be admitting to) that expressing complaints on the GDB or elsewhere will draw the ire of the staff.

With the amount of opinionated complaining done on the GDB (and lots of it done by older, veteran players), I don't think this is quite true. Flaming, trolling, etc may be a different story.


I'm really glad this poll is showing the results it does, though. I hope it's encouraging to the new player who asked about the karma system, if he/she sees it.

[Jarod550]

I guess my frustration is the amount of time and effort I put into the game and characters, then one dies to whatever, and I hit the create to see that all my stuff is the same.

Tell ya the truth, even if I had one karma and had a desert elf, I probably wouldn't play one right away until I learned more about how you're supposed to play one.

But don't pm this account like some of you have (appreciate it all, but it's cool) and don't respond in this thread, I'm unwatching everything and asked that my forum account be killed.

Jarod

[Supreme Allah]

I don't see how you can look at karma as a ranking system. You may know how much karma -you- have, but that doesn't tell you much about anyone else. And really, I think most people would know the reasons for whatever their karma level is. Have you been playing long? Are you still getting over some bad account notes? Have most of your roles been independent or had little cause for observation? Did your longest lived character last one week? And if you don't know, you can always email the staff and ask. You may have just been overlooked, in which case it can be corrected.

For the most part I wouldn't look at an 8-karma player and think they were better or worse than me simply because of their karma level. I also wouldn't consider myself any better a player than a 0-karma player just because I had a few points. Somebody with 8 karma is probably just a player who's been around a lot longer than I have and has proved they don't do stupid or twinky things. Somebody with 0 karma is probably either just new, hasn't been noticed, or is still 'getting' the game. Since karma isn't directly related to roleplaying ability either, I don't think it'd be a good thing to rank yourself on compared to other players.

Well, honestly I think the remainder of my first post that you didn't quote answers your response pretty well, Ms. Six. Rating might've been a better word than ranking, in afterthought. Regardless though, I understand that's not the purpose of the karma system - my point was that that's how it's often going to be interpreted. Nothing you said is wrong, but that's just not how it's always looked at when certain players are given more privilege than others. Whether or not that can be completely corrected, it's still a noteworthy flaw.

A player that doesn't get karma when they feel they deserve it, whether or not they express it outright, is going to be at least bothered by a lack of karma. And that could drive a potential player of our game elsewhere, if it persists over time.

With the amount of opinionated complaining done on the GDB (and lots of it done by older, veteran players), I don't think this is quite true. Flaming, trolling, etc may be a different story.

Very little of it is in direct criticism of the staff or the method of their madness. I remember a lengthy debate me and an immortal, Xygax, had on these boards some time ago (around a year or two ago I believe - you can look it up if you like), during which I got more than a couple PMs expressing that I was crazy for arguing with him so directly even though I never took it beyond the realm of the subject itself.

Maybe it's just me, but another flaw of this system just appears that players fear the staff here because of the vast amount of control they have over the world. I've heard of more than one instance where players have made mistakes they genuinely felt that the staff would never, ever forgive them for, or that it would at least take years for them to overlook.

Again, this isn't a problem that necessarily warrants correction - I think that at least overall, it's for the best - but there are definitely flaws present, and I think there's room for improvement.

But perhaps that's just my opinion.

-Supreme Allah

[ale six]

Regardless though, I understand that's not the purpose of the karma system - my point was that that's how it's often going to be interpreted. Nothing you said is wrong, but that's just not how it's always looked at when certain players are given more privilege than others. Whether or not that can be completely corrected, it's still a noteworthy flaw.

I guess I agree then, sure. Karma is a rating on how well you're trusted, but that isn't exactly the same as how good a player you are, or how you compare to other players. We can't help if people misinterpret that. I wouldn't be in the position to know if players are leaving the game because they don't get karma, but I would guess there are few who would. Especially when the staff are fair and seem to generally be frank with telling people why they can't play a certain role if they aren't judged good enough for it, and what they can do to get there.

Very little of it is in direct criticism of the staff or the method of their madness. I remember a lengthy debate me and an immortal, Xygax, had on these boards some time ago (around a year or two ago I believe - you can look it up if you like), during which I got more than a couple PMs expressing that I was crazy for arguing with him so directly even though I never took it beyond the realm of the subject itself.

Maybe it's just me, but another flaw of this system just appears that players fear the staff here because of the vast amount of control they have over the world. I've heard of more than one instance where players have made mistakes they genuinely felt that the staff would never, ever forgive them for, or that it would at least take years for them to overlook.

Is that a problem that's even specific to Armageddon or due to the karma system, though? Administrators of just about every mud have vast authority over the world and the players, and have the ability to get rid of people they don't like or disagree with.

I've been a victim of some horrible, terrible staffs on other MUDs. I've seen games which literally became unplayable because of staff cheating, backbiting, and vindictiveness. Thankfully I've seen none of that here, and that's a huge reason why I like the game so much. I feel like I can disagree with a staff member if I had a differing view and not worry about IC retribution against my PC, or worry about me losing karma. I guess my point is that if you took out karma completely and let everybody play every role unrestricted, it wouldn't make people fear the staff any more or any less. Luckily we have fair and just staff members and I don't really see a need to fear them either way. And here they come for my brains after saying that, so... I'm done.

[X-D]

Well, I'm perfectly willing to state my opinions, even when it goes against staff and still have karma.

Also, played LONG before Karma, and remembering that time, heh, I don't know if karma is the best system possible, but it is certainly better then nothing. And doing a good enough job that I don't think about it much.

Anybody else remember mantis PC's sitting down in flints or at the fountain?

[amoeba]

I voted the second option because I am generally quite satisfied with the system.

One drawback I would see to it is that those that are more visible, or more aggresive in contacting the staff are much more likley to be noticed than those folks who keep a low profile.  Thats not to say it can't be done, it's just that the likelyhood of being noticed is higher for these other folks.

The only other problem I see, affects getting karma.  That is feedback on your roleplay.  Once again, those who are more agressive in asking for feedback, or those that are really bad are likely to get much feedback.  You could work on the premise that no news is good news, but it isn't really very helpful.

I would like to encourage staff to comment not only on the bad behaviour, but also for good roleplaying if that is the case. I would also like to see more proactive commenting.  That is encouraging a player to develop a certian portion of thier roleplay that they see showing promise or needing work.  Not just comment on the spectaclarly good or horrificly bad.  A good way to keep a new player enthused and looging in regularly is by making him feel noticed and valuble.

I would also encourage players to send constructive feedback through the IMMs within reason.  Many times we as players see more than a few IMMs could ever do, don't just comment on the bad stuff.

[spawnloser]

I got tired of reading all the replies...so I'll just state something:

This game is run by people that volunteer their time and do what they think will make the game better.  They have the control.  This is not a democracy, it is an oligarchy with them in charge.

That is all.

[WarriorPoet]

Three and a half years of playing have netted me a solid stack o' karma.

I have in no way been affected by ranting and raving on the GDB. And trust me, I've raged about some dumb shit. Nor has my lack of 'reports' hurt me in any visible way. Only sent in one special app in all my time here, and have only exchanged a handful of emails with any Immortals. I wouldn't say I'm a player that tries to keep a low profile, rather, I play for my own enjoyment.

I think the Karma system is a good one. I've personally never been treated unfairly, and 99% of the people I've spoken to who claim to have been harassed/ignored/slaughtered/punished unfairly have all either been throwing a hissy fit, or well deserving of their slap on the wrist. Most don't see it at the moment, some don't ever see it, but nearly all have deserved their punishment but been blinded by the 'Nuh-Uh!' syndrome.

Perhaps the answer is for the immortals to try to swoop down on 0-karma accounts that are regularly logged in. If a newer player is devoting so much time to Armageddon, they're obviously passionate. A brief email explaining how the Imms feel about a player's style of play could easily mean the difference between six months of 0-karma, idiocy-filled newbness and a dedicated, knowledgeable, albeit new player.

-WP emotes something about fellating the karma system.

[Larrath]

This game is run by people that volunteer their time and do what they think will make the game better.  They have the control.  This is not a democracy, it is an oligarchy with them in charge.

That's very nice, but I don't see why this should stop anyone from making any suggestion that they honestly believe could help the game.

The MUD is managed by humans, not robots.  Sometimes humans can use new ideas, suggestions, or people pointing out things that are missing.  The Watch command, for example - would it have gone in if nobody ever talked about it?
Probably not.

[Folker]

There is one problem within Karma system that I have noticed. I might be wrong, or there might be some sort of mechanism that is fixing the problem that I am simply am unaware of.

Basically, Karma does not deteriorate from use. A character creating an 8 karma character will be "theoretically" able to do it once more once the character croaks. While I am fairly certain there are a number of "subtle" mechanisms that discourage continious use of high karma req. guilds, it doesnt work aswell for low/mid karma ones.

For example, I would feel that it is wrong to have a higher percentage of karma characters, then non karma ones. It's hard to hate magickers so to speak, when ... there's more of them then of your regular simpler folks (and yes, I mean PCs alone)

How to fix it ? I do not know, perhaps create a mechanism that would demand a delay between use of multiple karma characters. Say, 1 month per each point of Karma. This way, if you'll play out an 8 karma character, you will have to wait 8 months till playing ANY karma character again. Or you can just play a desert elf every other month. (After rereading this paragraph I find that kind of fix kind of fierce. But generally it's relaying the idea well enough)

As for the matter of addressing those (few, I am guessing Non-Karma'd players are in minority to those Karma'd ones), who feel they are being continiously looked over, I propose ... a lottery.

Basically, a mechanism that randomly provides a 'seriously' high karma character option to any Non Karma PC. At which point, the player who "won" the lottery, has the abiltiy to either accept it or let it pass by to another. Such lottery characters would first and foremost require some player-creator dialogue, in order for the creator to explain some vital points aswell as perhaps assign some enforced ideas/motivations to that high karma character. And then ... finally, that player is allowed to play it out, under close supervision of an Imm obviously.

What happens then is hard to guess, their 8 karma sorc might die the next hour, or twink out and then be killed off with a bit of GM guidance. Or ... really shine and prove how interesting and responsible a player those guys are.

What could possibly be dangerous about that ? That your other characters you actually 'worked' for will get killed by a lotteried idiotic character? Well, that's life, and it actually feels pretty similar to having your chara die off to any special app character I would suppose.

[Cuusardo]

This has been brought up before, and ultimately if the staff feels there are enough of a particular high karma class in the game already, they have every right to reject an application for one.

[Rindan]

The simple fact of the matter is that a system is needed to restrict players from playing anything they want.  Instead of constantly playing policeman, the best way to do this is to restrict character options based upon past performance.  This is essence what the karma systems.  It is a simple rating system that allows for the restriction of powerful roles to those who have shown themselves to be trustworthy over time.  Some sort of system is needed to do this.

People complain about the karma system by pointing out that it is subjective and could potentially lead to favoritism of some sort outside of the realm of merit.  What they rarely do is provide an alternative.  Sure, the karma system is without a doubt flawed.  It is flawed because it is run by humans.  So long as it is run by humans they will miss things, certain biases will be applied, and they will not use a uniform grading scale.  

There is no alternative.  This is as good of a system as you can get.  I have yet to hear anyone put forward a system that does a better job avoiding the problems that exist in the karma system.

Personally, I am very happy with the karma system.  As far as I can tell, the staff has done a solid job keeping an open mind and judging players fairly.  Is the system perfect?  Of course not.  It is about as good as it gets though.  I love to rack my brain for ways to improve things, and the karma system is one of the few areas where I am totally blank on ideas.

[Jherlen]

I think what Folker described with his lottery system is very similar to a special app (discussing goals/motivations/limitations of a guild, etc). And we have that anyway.  I would absolutely not want to see high karma guilds passed around via a lottery. I would not want to see anyone playing a sorceror, mindbender, mul, nilazi, etc, if they didn't know what they were doing. It would totally break the mystery and the continuity of the gameworld for me if those sorts of roles were being played poorly.

[Nusku]

In response to Folker, at any given point in time, the numbers of people playing magickers/restricted races is about in proportion to what I would expect. At certain times of the day it might feel like there are a disproportionate number of, say, magickers, but it evens out over the course of a day. The number of magickers you'll see (or know about) is also very dependent on geographical location. Gemmed in Allanak are very visible. Their magicker counterparts in Tuluk are hiding what they are (or dead), so, it probably appears that there are fewer magickers running around Tuluk than Allanak.

Here's another scenario that crops up. Let's say that the game has 4 active sorcerer PCs, they log on for a couple of hours a day, and at least 10-15 hours a week. Normally, though, let's say they're not all on at the same time or around the same geographic region when they are. You maybe bump into one sorcerer very infrequently. You think everything's fine. One day, though, something just happens to be going on and you run into 3 different sorcerers in the space of a couple hours. The common player conclusion is, "WE'RE OVERRUN WITH SORCERERS! THERE'S TOO MUCH MAGICK!!!" when in fact, there've been that many PCs all along, you just happened to have a bad run of things.

Another thing to note is that a lot of high karma players enjoy playing the mundane classes as well. Sure, having 8 karma means you can play whatever you'd like, but generally speaking, most people don't just make magicker after magicker.