The Inevitable Poll on Karma

[marko]

I played when karma did not exist.  Everyone had full opportunity to play anything.

I played in Tuluk (I played in 'nak as well of course but for this example).

One in three PCs was a sorcerer.

One in three PCs was an elementalist.

One in three PCs was a non-magick class.

How do I know so many were casters?  I played a magicker myself.

Things were quite different back then.  Let's not talk about the mantis and halflings hanging out in the cities.

Karma has helped the game.  Because of the open policies in how it is handled I don't see it as a problem at all.

[Gaare]

IMO an RPI game such as ARM can not be depended on some codes or criterias hard coded. I do not see any other way then some Game Masters to decide to give certain roles to certain players. Current Karma system is the best I can think of doing it.

Speaking for my own situation, I think it is pretty easy to get Karma as it is now (My level of English is low for ARM standarts, I have hard time to communicate RL with anyone but Turks, I do not know any staff). I would want it to be very very hard to get any karma points after d-elf point.

Edited to Add: I see Karma roles(especially magickers); hard to play, boring, depending on solo-rp a lot, with a lot of limitations, needing some periodic skill-train, alone roles.

PS. When I see some unneccesary a lot of supernatural things going on IG, I lose my concentration and begin to see dark screen, not Zalanthas.

[Cale_Knight]

This has been brought up before, and ultimately if the staff feels there are enough of a particular high karma class in the game already, they have every right to reject an application for one.

Just the opposite. The staff has said that they will never reject a normal application for a high-karma role simply because there are a lot of them in the game. It's the special apps that are going to get screwed over - the people who never have the chance to play those roles anyway.

Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

[Aldiel]

Just FYI,

I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

Going along with everyone else, mate, it doesn't have to do with argueing.  It has to do with how your argue and how much you argue.  If you're going to bitch about every little things wrong with the game, then you're not going to get a lot of respect around here.  Also, I don't know the details of your special app, but it looks like you just recently joined this forum.  Therefore, it could be that you where not experienced enough for such a role too.

[Aldiel]

Also, for those of you who don't think the karma system is absolutely incredible like I do, I say, "look at your RP."  Do you feel like your do an ok job of role-playing?  Well, if that includes emoting before kicking, bashing, sapping, tracking, fleeing, subduing, sitting and what not, I say that's just the bear essentials.  There is nothing worthy of karma in those actions alone.  Don't just think about how you can make your emotes pretty, think also about how you can make your actions typify your character.  When was the last time you RPed out sickness, dancing, romance, embarrassment, a card or dice game, or a festering wound.  Are you consistant in the way you emote things and have you thought about every habit you bestowed upon your character?  I think most of the people who don't like the karma system are the newer players.  You will get karma some day, and you will realize then just how much more you needed to know then now.

[flurry]

Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

That issue came up here, but that might not be the thread you mean.

[Jarod550]

...  Also, I don't know the details of your special app, but it looks like you just recently joined this forum.  Therefore, it could be that you where not experienced enough for such a role too.

My time of joining the forums is what's fucked me the most in my opinion, I never should have joined a board where my responces are sought, and then because they go against popular belief or rational, are considered wrong.

I'll say it again, stop directing posts at me, I'm not trying to speak on here any more then I have to, so I can't get canned answers like "I have discussed your application with the rest of the staff and we feel that your many recent posts on the GDB suggest that you are not quite ready for a special character yet." from staff.

So speak about whatever you wish, but stop looking for my responces, if I just stop talking to you folks, and just play, I feel it will increase my chances.

Jarod

[moab]

I find that I, personally, learn best when I am quiet and listen.

[Jarod550]

I find that I, personally, learn best when I am quiet and listen.

I am a hands on guy, I don't want people to tell me how to do something, I find my own way.

Jarod

[Malifaxis]

Then find your own way.

But understand that people that HAVE done this many, many times before, and have an actual understanding of what the fuck is going on will most likely have some input that could be useful.

Personally, if someone gave me a suitcase nuclear bomb, I wouldn't just run with it.  I would ask how to use it, how to disarm it, and what the minimum safe distance is to detonate, along with many many other questions.  I wouldn't just try to run with it.

Having a suitcase nuclear bomb is EXACTLY what magick is in this game.

By all means, find your own way.  I'll be about four miles to the east of you, waiting for the cloud.

/derail

The karma system in place is tried and tested, and widely appreciated.  Perhaps a good piece of advice is to understand that the staff are not trying to hurt your ego or stomp your dreams (NOTE:  I give no guarantee about brainz eating).  They're letting you come to an understanding about things that you do not yet understand, by letting you be around them before you become one of those things you do not yet understand.

[Maybe42or54]

And clouds are only good IRL. Clouds IG are very bad.

[marko]

I am a hands on guy, I don't want people to tell me how to do something, I find my own way.

Hands on is great.

But, if you solicit for advice listen to it.  If you are posting then you are soliciting for responses.  Therefore, when you get a response read it with an open mind and thank the person for taking an effort and time to respond at all.

You may not like the responses you receive but that is not reason to be belligerent or ungrateful.

Has posting here hurt your chances at getting karma?  Probably.  Why?  Because of the lack of class and politeness in your responses.

It's fine to have ideas, thoughts, and dissenting views and / or opinions but one should always remain civil and not descend into flames.

Will your stopping posting here do anything to rectify the situation?  Not really.  You've dug your hole.  Now it is up to you to prove to the community as a whole you are willing to participate in a constructive manner and not as a disruptive manner.

If you wish to make amends - then continue to post, continue to stay engaged, and show everyone that you are a mature player and member of the community.

I think at some time or another we've all posted dissenting views.  There's no problem with doing that.  It's just how you post and how you come across that is the thing to watch.  I'm guilty of going off the deepend myself and for that I apologize to everyone - sometimes we get a little heated.  

[Akaramu]

I dont know if it is still the case, but I remember reading years ago that the staff consisted of exclusively US Americans with one Brit and one Australian mixed in. I believe the biggest flaw of the karma system is that it so much favors US timezone players over others. Yes there are off peak players who have gotten karma, but I'm sure there are just as many or more who feel overlooked.

Maybe you are doing this already, but would it be possible to recruit more staff members who specifically have time for the mud at low peak and off peak hours?

Another flaw, in my opinion, is the fact that it depends so much on immortals having time. I was in a clan with one single, (back then) horribly busy imm, who told me I did way too little of one thing, and I fell out of the sky because I had done this thing almost every day. The imm just hardly ever had the time to watch me at all, especially at the times I played.

Additionally, the karma system screws those who somehow (bad luck, lack of knowledge or consistently refusing to share OOC knowledge about danger with their character) just cant manage to keep a character alive for a long time. As in, 3 months or more. Very often it seems to be the long-lived PCs who get karma, especially in leader roles.

On the other hand, the mud is much better off with the karma system than without it.  :wink:

[spawnloser]

You will be VERY hard pressed to find a time when NO staff is in the game, Akaramu.  Everyone, no matter the timezone, can get watched.  The Karma system favors people in clans, not in the US.

[joyofdiscord]

Also remember: peak hours mean more IMMs, but they mean more -players- to watch, too.  If you're one of only four players online, you've got a decent chance of catching the attention of the one or two IMMs around.

Also, keep in mind that Cenghiz, a Turkish off-peak player (I believe I've heard him mentioning the low player numbers when he plays) frequently mentions his high karma, and in this very thread mentioned that several other Turkish players also have achieved this.

[Cuusardo]

Just the opposite. The staff has said that they will never reject a normal application for a high-karma role simply because there are a lot of them in the game. It's the special apps that are going to get screwed over - the people who never have the chance to play those roles anyway.

Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

Despite this, they still have every right to reject any application they see fit to, for whatever reason(s) they have.

[spawnloser]

I know that they have rejected people in the past who repeatedly played high-karma roles and nothing else...like someone that played nilazi after nilazi.  I think that's the pst that joyofdiscord was referencing, telling people to cut that out.

[Cuusardo]

On a side note, a surefire way NOT to get karma is to let OOC grudges, feelings, opinions and such affect your PCs' actions in the game.

[Seeker]

I agree the game would be in much worse shape without the Karma system.  A crappy paraphrase:

"Armageddon's Karma system is the absolute worse way to ensure game consistency... except for every other system we've been able to think of."

The biggest challenge I have seen with it is that it takes time.  There is no way around that.  Newer players, the ones who need the most feedback (and sometimes reassurance), simply aren't going to get it from the Karma system.  A newer player, even an excellent newer player, simply will not have the Karma that she is capable of.  A six-month newbie might truly be more trustworthy, more considerate of the environment, and be more consistent in her involvement with her PC's character than a three-year player.  I've seen it happen.  Who will have more Karma?  The older player.  Karma is not a rating of ability.  It is a rating of demonstrated trustworthiness over time.

Time is the key.  You have to be around long enough to play through situations that demonstrate that reliability.  I remember one situation in which my PC got raided.  I had been playing for a couple of years at that point.  I played the scene out (I did a so-so job I thought), but found out later from my annual check of my account notes that the raider had been an animated IMM PC, and I had got a positive comment from him.  Demonstrated trustworthiness to the complex environment of the scene, and got noted.

I had been through dozens of scenes like that.  Some I had handled with more flair, but this was the one that got noticed.  Reliability to the gameworld environment over time.  I was capable of earning that comment years ago, but it took till then to have a chance to show it.

Patience sucks.  Hate it, but there it is.


Seeker

[Vesperas]

Totally agree with ya, Seeker.

[K4rm4Ch4m3l30n]

I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

[bloodfromstone]

Also, for those of you who don't think the karma system is absolutely incredible like I do, I say, "look at your RP."

This isn't really fair to say. Regardless of my own opinion on the karma system, it is extremely insulting to say that anyone who doesn't like the system needs to look at their roleplaying. I'm sure there are plenty of fine emoters and roleplayers that have beefs with the karma system. I'm sure there are plenty of bad ones who don't. Obviously, those who have the karma will be more inclined to like it, but placing a statement like this out there is exactly why the complaint of karma seen as a ranking system has validation.

[Jarod550]

I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

Unless you're named Jarod...

[jmordetsky]

I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

Unless you're named Jarod...

To be fair, I've read a lot of your posts, I can only imagine what your interactions with the Staff have been like. If thats any indication of your game play, I wouldn't give you Karma either.

[Cuusardo]

Instead of taking on a self-defeatist attitude and trying to play the victim, why not strive for improvement?  Don't post on the GDB about how you'll never get karma, how you're constantly overlooked, etc, etc.  Work on developing and enriching your PCs' lives and interacting with the world around them.  Learn more about the world and its societies.  Prove all the people wrong who think that you can't do it.  Don't just reject the advice that experienced Armers give you, and give some of it a try.  Figure out what works and what doesn't.  There have been plenty of people who have come in and felt like you, and some of them have gone on to become some outstanding roleplayers.  If you truly love this game, aim to join the ranks of those who have transcended "noobness" and become a better roleplayer.