Forcefeed (yet ... again)

[Folker]

Greetings.

I'd like to unearth this topic, a topic that apperently was milled over before. But nonetheless I ask you to share your opinion on it again.

To recap, aswell as explain it to those who 'didnt' witness this topic mentioned before. The forcefeed is the command that allows you to feed a certain eatable/drinkable object to another person.

The good sides to it are many, for example it would allow people to cure others who are unconscious due to poison. Currently,you cannot cure an unconscious person even if you got the antidote without IMM's help. For curing requies you to give the item to the patient and have them eat/drink it which they cant do being unconscious.

The bad sides are abuse, and possible unrealistic matters. Abuse is to forcefeed a poison to a templar and ran off, or avoid crimflag by forcefeeding poison to another, etc. And even if you allow 100% resistance to it, people with nosave will be vulnerable to it. And I'm sure idiots will be able to find some shady charas who keep their nosave on all the time to avoid certain ... problems, and do a quickie lethal twinkage.

Another matter is that an unconscious person wouldnt swallow a mixture by himself, and instead choke on it. That might be true, but I ask you ... HOW were people nursed back to life before the creation of catherers ? Were they rolled over? Did the body swallow things out of reflex, providing they werent laying on their back? Were liquids trinkled in at 'very' small doses? I mean ... people WERE nursed back to life somehow, unconscious people WERE cured in medievil ages. So there has to be a way to get something inside the body while they are unconscious, without using needles and rectum insertions.

So my proposal is simple, infact overly simple to prevent all possible abuse. Forcefeeding is possibly ONLY if the other person is unconscious. If the person is asleep, his body will cough out of reflex, and character will have a chance to react the same way as if somebody stuck a knife into them. Except no harm is done.

Moreso, when forcefed, the one who is being fed is given an y/n prompt. If the person types in no, then the body coughs or just ... not swallows. If he types in yes, then something gets through.

If there is a thought that forcefeeding would be an easy way to kill a person, then I have to say ... even a Jozhal can kill an unconscious mul, if he stays unconscious long enough. There is also a thought that you can avoid crimcode by feeding poison to an unconscious person and looting it, instead of killing him proper, getting wanted, and then looting it. And that would be a true possibility, but is it unrealistic? Is feeding poison to someone as noticable as slashing his throat to general crowd? Plus, the victim can always type "n" Also remember, there are always ways to force venom inside another character without interaction from them, just use a poisoned weapon.

There is a matter that some things are too hard, and simply CANT be swallowed in no way. Well then, let the one feeding rp it out. Chew it into a mush, or use a bowl and a pestle, whatever.

The main reason why such a command is important is to allow physicians or anyone really more freedom. Otherwise a healer or whomever can arrive, get himself a patient and be able to do ... nothing. (Except bandage him to full health, heh) Even if he has all the cures, and all the knowledge needed, he'll be prevented by pure code limitation.

So what possible things that could outweigh the need for this command ?

[Agent_137]

nothing, in my opinion. I hope it's on a coder's list of things to do. hell, it might be.

[Rindan]

I think force feed/drink is a fine idea.  Hell, I wouldn't even make it as complicated as you are making it.  If someone is asleep, a force-feed command will wake them up and cause them to not accept what is being fed to them.  

If they are knocked out, they will accept anything you shoved down their throats.  Could someone give you a poison pill and avoid the crime flag?  Sure.  But once someone is out cold there are already a dozen ways to kill them and avoid a crime flag.

[X-D]

One wonders if people really read the help files.
The reason that forcefeed does not exist is simply because it is not needed and already covered by existing skills.

The main reason why such a command is important is to allow physicians or anyone really more freedom. Otherwise a healer or whomever can arrive, get himself a patient and be able to do ... nothing. (Except bandage him to full health, heh) Even if he has all the cures, and all the knowledge needed, he'll be prevented by pure code limitation.

The above quote is untrue.
Helpfile below

Skill Bandage  (General)  


The bandage skill can be used to help those that are injured, although the skill of the healer has much to do with how much can be healed. The more injured one is, the greater skill is required to heal the wound. A truly talented individual, using high quality bandages may even be able to cure some poisons through skilled first aid. Such an individual may learn to craft their own bandages, either out of cloth or herbal soaked fabric, as well as other cures, such as smelling salts

Also, there may be other ways to cure poisons as well.

Now, the part about wanting anyone to be able to do it, blah, poison is already far too easy to cure.

[Rindan]

One wonders if people really read the help files.
The reason that forcefeed does not exist is simply because it is not needed and already covered by existing skills.

I read the help files.  Should I quote a magiker help file too to show that there are even MORE ways to cure poison?  So you can cure poison with bandaging.  What is your point?  The issue isn't if there are ways to cure poison or not.  The issue is that you can't stuff a pill down someone's throat.

It takes and should not take any skill to stuff a pill down someone's throat.  I should not need uber ranger bandaging to take my thumb and shove a pill down someone's throat.

[Nusku]

take my thumb and shove a pill down someone's throat.

"Is that some kind of miracle coating?"

"Chocolate makes it go down easier."

[Yokunama]

One wonders if people really read the help files.
The reason that forcefeed does not exist is simply because it is not needed and already covered by existing skills.

The main reason why such a command is important is to allow physicians or anyone really more freedom. Otherwise a healer or whomever can arrive, get himself a patient and be able to do ... nothing. (Except bandage him to full health, heh) Even if he has all the cures, and all the knowledge needed, he'll be prevented by pure code limitation.

The above quote is untrue.
Helpfile below

Skill Bandage  (General)  


The bandage skill can be used to help those that are injured, although the skill of the healer has much to do with how much can be healed. The more injured one is, the greater skill is required to heal the wound. A truly talented individual, using high quality bandages may even be able to cure some poisons through skilled first aid. Such an individual may learn to craft their own bandages, either out of cloth or herbal soaked fabric, as well as other cures, such as smelling salts

Also, there may be other ways to cure poisons as well.

Now, the part about wanting anyone to be able to do it, blah, poison is already far too easy to cure.

One wonders if people pause to think outside of the box. There are some things, such as dehydration and starvation, that bandaging and taking pills will not cure. The forcefeed command could come in handy in these situations.

[Tarx]

Bandages don't cure dehydration?  *boggle*

[Jherlen]

I was once in a situation with an unconcious person dying of poison and my PC had the cure. If I'd been able to force feed it to him, the PC would have lived. Instead he died.

I support this idea.

[Cale_Knight]

The bad sides are abuse, and possible unrealistic matters. Abuse is to forcefeed a poison to a templar and ran off, or avoid crimflag by forcefeeding poison to another, etc. And even if you allow 100% resistance to it, people with nosave will be vulnerable to it. And I'm sure idiots will be able to find some shady charas who keep their nosave on all the time to avoid certain ... problems, and do a quickie lethal twinkage.

Just make it so that the target must be subdued before the command can be used, and you'd get rid of most of those problems.

[mansa]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=73764#73764

Ahh.  I remember when I posted this a long time ago.

[X-D]

Notice, Yokunama, since you did quote my complete post, that I was only speaking of poison.

But, to touch on Dehydration and starvation.

Even today, with all the medical science we have, if somebody is dehydrated or starved to the point of being out cold, it is often VERY hard to bring them back, more then half the time they will still die or spend MONTHS in recovery, in a hospital, weeks in critical care.

So, no, I still do not support forcefeeding for that either, being that it is realistic for people who are too far gone to be able to eat or drink on thier own to die. Though, it is still possible to bring them back through IC means.

I read the help files. Should I quote a magiker help file too to show that there are even MORE ways to cure poison? So you can cure poison with bandaging. What is your point? The issue isn't if there are ways to cure poison or not. The issue is that you can't stuff a pill down someone's throat.

If it is in help files available to everybody, then be my guest, quote away, otherwise no. And you are incorrect on the issue at hand on the origanal post of this thread

Here, Let me hi-light it since you seemed to have missed it twice so far.

The main reason why such a command is important is to allow physicians or anyone really more freedom. Otherwise a healer or whomever can arrive, get himself a patient and be able to do ... nothing. (Except bandage him to full health, heh) Even if he has all the cures, and all the knowledge needed, he'll be prevented by pure code limitation.

My answer(s) were directly to this post, which is why I had not quoted or named anybody else. Though you decided to troll anyway.

So, on topic of your post(s) of the subject and Yokunama's.

Fine, Add in forcefeed, on pills, 50% chance that it does not make it to the stomach but simply lodges someplace else, even if its a skilled healer, so they die anyway.

On water and food, 80% chance that the food or water gets asperated into the lungs and the pc Dies in a rather gruesome drowning manner, 10% chance that it asperates and they don't die but now suffer from perm lung problems, lower hp/stam/stun/str/end by 50% perm.

There, thats realistic for your using your big dirty thumb to attempt to stuff something down somebodies throat.

Me, I'll simply deal with the fact that there are already ways do deal with the problems and I will deal with the fact that in Zalanthus people die and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it.

[Maybe42or54]

I hear a new mudsexx command.

The horny mercenary tries to forcefeed you kank honey.
Do you swallow, or cough it up?

I like the original idea too though.

[Bebop]

Why not just make it to where the person has to be unconscious to be force fed?  A person is completely vunerable in this state, why should they have a decision what is done to them?  I think there should be a minor chance of failure, just random, not a skill you have to level up.  The circumstances would probably be to infrequent to make it an actual skill.

You can emote grinding up the pills and putting it down with some water, with most people, if there nose is held and water is put down their throat they are going to swallow by reflex alone.  Or with the minute chance of failure they will choak and die.  But they may have died anyway, so that is just a risk I think someone would be willing to take.

I think this is better than having to wish up to an IMM everytime someone get's in this situation and it could potentially save alot of noobs that I have met that don't realize how easy it is to get dehydrated.  However, this may lower Vivaduan healers employment, unless you abosolutely did not want to risk the death of the PC you were trying to assist.

[Folker]

However, this may lower Vivaduan healers employment,

so does it mean that in magic hating world, the first thing commoners would think when trying to help someone dehydrated is a magicker?

[Agent_137]

I'd just like to say that immortals aren't always around, and that makes for VERY AWKWARD AND UNREALISTIC SITUATIONS. Like tonight.

So please install some type of forcefeed command. Thanks.

[moab]

Can't you just give foodItem to character and emote that you are making them eat it?

[Anael]

Not if they're knocked out, about to die to thirst, in koma due to poison...

[moab]

Anael>

If that's the case, you're out of luck in RL too.  Having just spoken with a pharmacist about an issue with my father - if you are not conscious you are not about to swallow anything.  

If someone force feeds you anything, you will choke and die.

About the only RL thing you can do to put something into someone's body when they are not conscious is intubate them or give them a shot - neither of which is happening on Zalanthas, I don't think.

[Anael]

Yup, I know, I only meant to point out why would some people want  to have forcefeed implemented. Because otherwise, emote and give is always the way.

[moab]

Ah, gotcha.  I thought you were presenting an argument for the imping of the command.   :-D

[Yokunama]

Why not just make it to where the person has to be unconscious to be force fed?  A person is completely vunerable in this state, why should they have a decision what is done to them?  I think there should be a minor chance of failure, just random, not a skill you have to level up.  The circumstances would probably be to infrequent to make it an actual skill.

I favor this to some degree. If the person was "sleeping" while someone tried to force something in them, it would have a very rare chance of success. Thus, waking the person in the process. Though there could be a use of poison skill (Ex: poison <sleeping person>)or the sleight-of-hand command "slip" (Ex: slip <item> <person>) that could give someone a better chance of force-feeding a "sleeping" person.

On the other hand, if the person was in the negatives of HP or had 0 stun points, it would have a 100% chance of success without waking the victim. The chance of success would depend on the forcer's bandage skill if it is an attempt to save someone. Within the cities, it could stick the crim-flag to the forcer if tried poisoning the target.

Blah.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. Even though I was in real favor of this idea... Eh..
I asked it to a few doctors, all of whom agreed on one thing: If you forcefeed someone unconscious, he possibly dies. One in coma, near-death state or such would possibly die.
They also said there's a chance that the body itself may decide to swallow the thing inside its mouth when unconscious because of a fainting or sleep.
So, let it not be implemented for the near-dead.. It still has uses like forcing poison.

[Folker]

When you talked to the doctors, did you speak of slid things? Or of 'any' things? Will mushed near liquid things be easier to swallow, or liquid itself. I mean 'somehow' people were nursed back to health afterall.

[mansa]

The whole point of a force feed situation is to prevent the players from wishing up to request an emergency interaction from the staff.  So that we don't _NEED_ to wish up to the staff in order to ask them to make players have health greater than 0, so that they -CAN- drink the water we're offering them, or so that they -CAN- eat the pill that would save their life.