Forcefeed (yet ... again)

[moab]

Folker - this is the case with solids or liquids.  It doesn't matter.
When you swallow items going to your stomach you don't breath.  People who have no idea what's gong on will aspirate and die.  That's also what happens when people choke on their own vomit.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. I just asked and... one of them said forcefeeding's more dangerous with liquids.

[Agent_137]

interesting.

well, I withdraw my support of this command due to reality.

good job on research, guys. I guess that "advanced" bandaging where you can cure poisons is worth something sensible afterall.

[Folker]

Well then once again, how are people nursed back to health if feeding them while they're unconscious is not a possibility?

[Maybe42or54]

Honey?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well then once again, how are people nursed back to health if feeding them while they're unconscious is not a possibility?

Injections.  Injections that don't exist on Zalanthas.  People who fall into a coma WILL die, but that's life in the stone age for you.

[Folker]

People were nursed back in the dark ages and before. Injections didnt exist then either.

[X-D]

So, doing a bit of research, and you know, I cannot find any instances (documented non-fiction) Where people were kept fed and watered while in a coma more then 200 years ago and lived. If they don't wake up on thier own, they die.

So, to the people claiming that people were nursed back to health in the dark ages and whatnot, Are you sure that they were in a coma? Unable to feed themselves or anything? And where exactly are you getting your information?

Hell, most the things I can find show that usually dark ages medicine was not as advanced as zalanthian medicine even and often resulted in the death of the victem..um, patient. Interesting procedures like bleeding and such, mercury baths, leeching, burning (small branding irons basicly, in hopes of waking the person so that they can eat or drink).

[Morrolan]

Okay, I was originally a proponent of "forcefeed" , but the research seems to be showing that  short of intubation (sticking a bendy tube down someone's throat) there is no was to forcefeed someone.

Which gives me a great idea for a spell, if it doesn't already exist: a way to make food appear inside someone!  It's would be an advanced form of creating food!

Then again, maybe this already exists, in one form or another.

This is a job for...Gemmer-man!

Morrolan

[spawnloser]

Yes, medicine really didn't start getting to where it helped people until well after the dark ages...and zalanthan technology is, in general, bronze age technology, including the medicine.  See, in the Dark Ages, superstition killed most of the medical technology already in use...I blame the Christians of that time trying to scare demons with dirt (boggle, I mean, come on).

If anyone is still in favor of this idea, please, go talk to a doctor on your own.  Without incubation or an intraveinous means of introducing nutrients, you're more likely to harm the person than help...a doctor will confirm this.  Zalanthas doesn't have that level of technology yet, or even the general mindset that would birth the idea of either of these methods of helping someone.

Also, if anyone does still support the idea after talking to a doctor, let me know.  I'm pretty sure I can find some gruesome horror stories about that would back the nay-sayers side up.

[O]

Off the topic of force-feeding, but surely that's been answered definitivly numerous times....

Yes, medicine really didn't start getting to where it helped people until well after the dark ages...and zalanthan technology is, in general, bronze age technology, including the medicine. See, in the Dark Ages, superstition killed most of the medical technology already in use...I blame the Christians of that time trying to scare demons with dirt (boggle, I mean, come on).

The period of time portrayed by Christian-centric renderings of history as the 'dark ages', was actually a time of major enlightenment and technological breakthroughs in the Islamic world.

Apparently some of the surgical procedures and instruments created and recorded then were still used until very recently (I mean in the last twenty years or so.).

Just wanted to clear that up.

(I'm going with the Bronze age thing)

[Vesperas]

DUDE.

We have freaking giant beetles and everyone has telethapy to some extend (some far more than others) and.... did you all miss the overshadowing Socerer-King thing?

I don't want to bring up a "this is a game" notion in the argument, but I do want to point out its fantasy.  Make-believe.  While it is a highly believable and realistic game (which is what I love about it), you also want to give a little lee-way to playability.  If there is a time period that Zalanthas is based on, its important to remember it is just that -- BASED ON.  Things have evolved different on our little sand world, discoveries have been made backwards, and physics just doesn't work the same.

Forcefeeding should be difficult, but its possible, in my opinion.

[Aldiel]

This is sweet idea, but I think it should work:

Code Select Expand

Subdue <person>
Forcefeed <item> <person>

Both should require a subdue check if the person is conscious.   Forcefeed being much harder than just simple subdue.

[Maybe42or54]

And I've seen needles IG. I don't know if they are still there though.

[Folker]

Those are probably sewing needles, they're different then medicinal ones.

And yes, as far as I have read, there was evidence of 'brain surgery' being performed in Islamic world, and India. But it's still not what I mentioned about a possibiltiy of being nursed back.

Generally, now that I think about it. Chances are, the 'nursing' began with dragging a person into a better environment, one that is colder, softer and so on. One that doesnt require the body to continiously weaken due to outside environments such as heat/cold, etc. Then they are cared for, worked over with moistened cloth, cleaned and so on. Or perhaps simply slapped at untill they regain partial coherence enough to swallow a bit of soup or water, or whatever. And generally in some cases, even an almost dead person can regain consciousness even for only a few moments.

Are there instances when a person can regain consciousness inside the game while being near death like that?

[mansa]

Are there instances when a person can regain consciousness inside the game while being near death like that?

Magickally, sure.  With immortal support, sure.

But with the automatic regeneration code?

I've been in situations at negative health, where I couldn't be saved even though I had food and water in my inventory.  I couldn't be saved from starvation and dehydration.  Which I eventually died of.

I'm still totally for a forcefeed situation for drink and food and pill items, where the victem is either at negative health, or subdued.  (And the subdue situation would require a third character to administrator the drug/food/water) I just think the playability of those situations would make the game so much more fun and entertaining.

[Angela Christine]

The exact mechanics are probably taboo, but I'm pretty sure there is the possibility of at least breif periods of conciousness from starvation and dehydration -- even after falling to 0 stamina and negative hit points.

If the person has low endurance and is stuck someplace inhospitable like the salt flats, they are probably toast.  The rate of regeneration would be too low compared to the rate of deterioration.

If they are some place with a high regeneration rate, gennerally a cushy indoor room, and they have good endurance, then they might linger on deaths door with occasional moments of conciousness for a long time.  Literally hours and hours of real time.  

I'm a sucker for seeing what happens next, even when the situation looks helpless, so I've spent plenty of time watching my characters linger near death.  Excruitiatingly boring to watch, but giving up and typing "quit die" seemed like . . . giving up, like letting the poor bastard down somehow.  The chance of actually recovering is slight, but where there is life there is hope.

[Maybe42or54]

Those are probably sewing needles, they're different then medicinal ones.

No, they were injection needles.

[Folker]

Hrm, whoa. Alright. If there are injection needles out there, then Zalanthas' medicine is on much higher level then I thought. Though admittedly ... I'm curious what those needles are made out of.

[Moofassa]

It -could- work the same as tattoo needles for Zalanthas. Very undeveloped. You could coat a long skinny needle in the medication and then jam into a random area in the body, and hope it hits the blood stream. Could be a neat skill/thing for house physicians to pass on through generations, the best methods and areas to stab medication..

[Maybe42or54]

Coating the needle would only get all the coating on the skin, or most of it. IMHO.

Then again, I said those needles were injection. They had a needle, a tube, and a little pusher to "inject".

[spawnloser]

Yeah...but those needles are for junkies.

[Morrolan]

There are other ways to introduce something into the bloodstream, that don't require needles.  A cure for poison could be introduced in the same way a poison is--through a cut.  This isn't going to help with dehydration or starvation, but it could work on someone unconscious or paralyzed through poison.  Maybe this is part of what is included in the advanced bandaging skill?

Morrolan

[spawnloser]

I would say that you are probably correct, Morrolan, in the administering of anti-venom through open wounds.

[Cuusardo]

If a needle can poison you, why couldn't a needle cure you?  It seems logical...