Split from setting the example - derailment

[Tamarin]

I had played briefly with both those characters in their infancy in the Byn.  Then I heard that one of them (once they became sergeants) forgot to take water on a trip into the Red Desert or the Salt Flats.  So they killed a runner and drank his blood.

That's good leadership.

[Agent_137]

that would have been bela. she later made lieutenant. And her story is that the elven runner used up all their water, and then ran off. Another runner went crazy, and they drank -his- blood. They later killed the elf lounging in some shade.

bela 2, runners 0. gg.

[jstorrie]

learn2play, runners.

[waroth]

We are getting way off topic and probably pissing off Sarah, but I will agree, being in the BYn at that time with those two was fun, and I was also one of the characters with -Mona- not Bela, when the desert incident took place.

[Agent_137]

We are getting way off topic and probably pissing off Sarah, but I will agree, being in the BYn at that time with those two was fun, and I was also one of the characters with -Mona- not Bela, when the desert incident took place.

they may have been together. Because i specifically remember Bela as a lieutenant telling my sergeant that story as a warning to hiring city elves.

[Larrath]

We are getting way off topic and probably pissing off Sarah, but I will agree, being in the BYn at that time with those two was fun, and I was also one of the characters with -Mona- not Bela, when the desert incident took place.

Blah blah, blah blah blah blah Mona Bela T'zai Byn blood blood ha ha IC antics.

Can you people please stop derailing this thread?

I could absolutely not care less about that adventure Bela the Byn Lieutenant (one of the characters I liked best) had in some little trip.  I also don't care whether it was Bela or Mona (another character I knew and appreciated) who drank that elf's blood.
I care about this thread, and I would really like to see some actual content.
If Bela set an example to you as players, by all means, please tell us how, why or when.  If you just want to reminisce about old times, please open a new thread for that.  Hell, it could be an excellent thread.  Just please keep it out of here, these derailments are becoming very, very agitating to me and I could do without them.

Please, derailers, just stop.  Take it to PMs, that's what they're for.
The next person posting here better make it an on-topic post or they get an official Larrath Frownie.

[Agent_137]

you realize that when you point out other people aren't on topic, you yourself are not on topic.

[Adhira]

I've split this from the original thread as it was veering the original topic of course.

Reminder to anyone else posting on here - please don't get too specific with the IC events and happenings.

[Tamarin]

Woops...sorry for derailing guys.  Didn't mean too...heh.

[Agent_137]

Yea, it was getting rather IC but it's been more than a year IRL, so i figured it was safe.

but yea. I hope bela or mona writes out the full story there and sends it to the MUD for posting. Or at least for their wiki.

[Yang]

Bela, Mona, and all the Tzai Byn newbies who grew up to learn arm through the eyes of some half-assed sell-sword ....character version 300.7 from stock template....


.... you all suck. Period.

End of story. Hah. Go worship your tall, muscular man statue.

[Stroker]

Bela, Mona, and all the Tzai Byn newbies who grew up to learn arm through the eyes of some half-assed sell-sword ....character version 300.7 from stock template....


.... you all suck. Period.

End of story. Hah. Go worship your tall, muscular man statue.

I concur; finally, an insane voice in the darkness.

[LoD]

Bela, Mona, and all the Tzai Byn newbies who grew up to learn arm through the eyes of some half-assed sell-sword ....character version 300.7 from stock template....


.... you all suck. Period.

End of story. Hah. Go worship your tall, muscular man statue.

Templates are formed to reflect what many consider to be a perfect, appropriate or well formed idea.  If a player was able to follow one of these "templates" closely enough to capture its essence and inspire more than a couple of players to try harder at playing out a role true to their station and environment, I would choose praise over degradation.

Now, I played neither with Bela nor Mona enough to make a personal comment on the level of their role play, but you shouldn't discredit their efforts and apparent success because you didn't have the same reaction as several new players that found them inspiring.

You, sir, are better than your hurtful and narrow post.

-LoD

[Agent_137]

Since when is a scarred, brutish, combat-skilled, and accomplished woman a typical template in this game?

Maybe we really are playing different games, Yang.

[kanker]

Maybe it was just a joke, guys?

[Stroker]

A template may be a standard, but it doesn't follow that it necessarily must reflect a positive standard.

Since when is a scarred, brutish, combat-skilled, and accomplished woman a typical template in this game?

Generally, most female PCs within the Byn adhere to that criteria. Outside the Byn, such entities appear rarely.

[Yang]

Naturally I'd withdraw them out of respect, if they hadn't been quoted two times already. My concern is that there is an abundance of praise for the Byn because there's a deficit of people playing anything else, during certain long periods of activity of that clan. I'm fascinated to read this thread, but saying 'Bela, Mona, Bela Mona twenty times is really annoying, especially when I know that there is plenty of acurate negative opinion about them as well.

They're not going to win the nobel prize. If someone loves these two, chanting their name throughout the thread seems mindless and leaves a lot to be said for the structure of popularity. Can't you think of other, perhaps more subtle characters who played official leadership roles, or perhaps some that led through suggestion, manipulation or extortion. Who controlled through fear rather than positive re-inforcement. Who set an example much more sinister in its Zalanthan roots.

Honestly, people. LoD, thank you for the commentary, it was a pointless jab without explanation.

[jmordetsky]

Go worship your tall, muscular man statue.

This is a shitty post. Even if it was true...Why do you have to hate on people who obviously had so much fun?


THAT SAID - Taken out of context, the visual of a bunch of n00bs worshiping "a tall, muscular man" statue, is fucking HYSTERICAL. I'm giggling my ass off. Which is the only reason I've bothered to reply.

THAT BEING SAID AGAIN - I think Yang probably played the runner who got his blood drunk up.

[Yang]

The original post is meant to be biting, satirical and yes, hilarious. The second one explains briefly my specific angle. LoD already schooled me, jmordesky is a little late on the draw. But keep on trying.

;)

[Spiegel]

Let people give their praise, who cares if they keep shouting the same names over and over again, atleast you know that it actually means something. These people obviously were pretty good if they inspired people to immediately recall their names and leadership a RL year later after the event.

The Byn is a great place, so what if it's vile, disguisting, and violent? So is 80% of this game, and it's environment. Does that make it any less worthy of attention or praise for their RP? I just hate people oocly looking down on the Byn because you figure your stereotypical Unit is already dead at the bottom of the shield wall. Not every leader should be this perfect, brilliant, super-subtle genuis who kicked that pebble at you that one time not by mistake... but to sekritly motivate your will to train harder. I like dumbasses. They are everywhere in real life, why not in Arm, too?

It all depends on the person. I've seen good Byn, and good Bards, and everything between. Just because you play one and not the other doesn't mean you should just rip into a post, degrading one for your preferences.

No Byn or Bard are going to win nobel prized, but I'll tell you which one I'd rather use for my future Noble's meat-shield....

Casting a brief glimpse across the pile of flute-carrying corpses, the trim, spotless noble screams, "And the winner of the Ghatti Teahouse Bard Competition is .... me, fuckers!"  :twisted:

[Maybe42or54]

They're not going to win the nobel prize. If someone loves these two, chanting their name throughout the thread seems mindless and leaves a lot to be said for the structure of popularity. Can't you think of other, perhaps more subtle characters who played official leadership roles, or perhaps some that led through suggestion, manipulation or extortion. Who controlled through fear rather than positive re-inforcement. Who set an example much more sinister in its Zalanthan roots.

Positive re-inforcement? Bela threatened to flay me alive if I fucked it up.

They didn't play official leadership roles? A sargeant and a Lieutenant of a supposed noob clan that is loved by everyone from oldbies, imms, and noobs? One that wasn't apped for but can only be attained by starting at rung 1 and moving up and up, is not official? Only "Imm-sponsored" roles are official?

As I have seen it, the ones that lead through fear, "suggestions, manipulation or extortion." Usually don't last as long or aren't as public as the ones that lead through respect and positive re-inforcement. Why? It is hard to do those things to people that nod, agree, and swear to tell no one and then go blabber it to everyone and their mom. And that is the bulk of people. I'm not saying that is bad Rp, but.. it reminds me of the bynners that defy a templar, are in prison, and scream out Viva Le France, or somesuch bullshit. Noone's pc can be intimidated perfectly because their player isn't. If their player is. Then they are. That is hard to accomplish though.

Good examples of those leaders that used those traits.
Delanora Tor- Intimidation and manipulation expert.
Rain (I forget the real name, she was a nenyuki)- Suggestion and extortion.
Kishime Fale- Fear and suggestion
Masiki- Goaded me on by manipulation.
Digger- Led me by manipulation and promise of riches and fear.

[Ritley.]

Hold on! I remember Bela from my first ever character. Before you start flaming me and saying I'm a noob and couldn't have done.... I have been playing this game for longer than you all think. Just because my Gnb account was made in june doesn't mean my Arm account was.

[Ritley.]

Hold on! I remember Bela from my first ever character. Before you start flaming me and saying I'm a noob and couldn't have done.... I have been playing this game for longer than you all think. Just because my Gnb account was made in june doesn't mean my Arm account was.

YES I do! she was a corporal at the time. She hired me and although my character lasted only seven hours she inspired me. I don't remember how he died now...

[Tamarin]

Corporal is not a rank in the Byn, Ritley.

Byn ranks:

Runner (tons of them)
Trooper (tons of them)
Sergeant (lots of them)
Lieutenant (a few)
Captain (four)
Commander (one)

[Ritley.]

Corporal is not a rank in the Byn, Ritley.

Byn ranks:

Runner (tons of them)
Trooper (tons of them)
Sergeant (lots of them)
Lieutenant (a few)
Captain (four)
Commander (one)

Oh maybe she was a Sergent then. I could have swore she was a Corporal. Maybe she was a Lieutenant. But I know I did see her. I'm absolutely certain of this.

[Maybe42or54]

And thank you for adding completely nothing to the conversation at hand.

And Ritley please stop replying to yourself. Seriously annoying.

While working, I thought to add something.
Why is there such a great line-up of leaders from the Byn through out it's history?
There is a lot of leaders to choose from.

Whereas in the other places.
Borsail- I saw homocidal maniacal Lieutenants, 2 of them. No other really good leader. Sure they were special apped, but then they had a personality that wasn't molded by what was going on in the game. They came into the game one way and were to self important to change. So they disrespected everyone technically beneath them. Even though, I wouldn't have fucked with them if I went through the ranks.

Tor- Excellant sparring atmosphere, but what goes wrong? Pcs are stereotypical, even more so than the byn. Once they get to a certain rank the "asshole" button gets flipped on and they just aren't fun to RP around.

Salarr- Not a very good leadership atmosphere. Everyone dies when they solo hunt at one time or another. And everyone does that in salarr.

Kurac- Pretty O.K. leader atmosphere. They have a lot of choice with who to hire and what not since they take half breeds and elves and any other scum they can dig up. And those leaders are knee deep in Pcs so they become more Realistic. They are mentally fucked like a couple of the leaders from Tor and Borsail have been. They powertrip less. Their followers always go out alone, so they powertrip from time to time. Died to it.

Byn- No steady pay, no people parenting each other. Everything tells the runners they don't have a very good choice. Follow or clean the latrines. Spar or clean. Stew or bread. Work or you get tossed into the shithouse. Leader went through it all, knows how things really work. Documentation, or not.

Kadius has an alright atmosphere, better then salarr, but worse then others. Why? Their hunters don't get orders to go out and "bring back any hide, stone, horn, hair, feather, stick, twig, kank" and come back. They can't use most of what zalanthas offers, so they want things that are specific and because of that they get specific orders from superiors. "We need stone." "We need duskhorn hide/horn." Etc..

[Jherlen]

Maybe42or54:

This is just another player's opinion, but I really wouldn't generalize all the clans to be "good leadership atmosphere" or "bad leadership atmosphere" based on your experiences alone. Clan dynamics change as people enter and leave, and it's not so much as what clans have good leadership as where the good leaders are playing at any given time.

For example, I'm sure Borsail has had non-special-apped leaders before. I know that Salarr has had leader pcs who've lasted a long time and not died to solo hunting. Without going into IC details and comparing PCs to PCs, I don't think it's really possible to say "Kurac has better leadership than Kadius has better leadership than Salarr..." and so on.

Clans go through phases. Let's not promote some and slam others on the GDB, because most are perpetually starved for recruits as it is unless they have fanboy clubs. The PCs who generate a bad (or good) leadership experience for somebody aren't immortal, so it's unfair to base an entire clan's reputation off one good leader or not.

The Byn probably has a higher-than-usual number of memorable leaders because so many people are fed into the Byn as newbies. I think a lot of times the first time you do things is always the most nostalgic, which is why so many people point to it. But it isn't the only clan that's ever had good leaders.

The clans that look active are probably the ones with the good leaders, whether they're Kurac, Winrothol, Salarr, Borsail, or the Atrium. I think the best way the action is is by looking to see which leaders are engaging people around them and have stuff going on. Don't just judge by clan.

[amoeba]

I think much of this popularity thread is skewed on what a  "leader" is.   It is not only combat types that become leaders.  Take for instance someone like Danu of Kurac.  Face it, a 11 year old girl could have cleaned the floor with him, but no one can deny the leadership qualities.  

The byn pumps out more military type leaders, because the byn pumps out more people. Period.   Others like Kurac have leaders that live a very, very long time, and tend to be much more low ley due to a narrowed mission.

I agree with Yang somewhat on his overall point, although not his approach.  Much of what this thread is, and others like it, is a popularity contest, and a very narrowly defined definition of "leader".

[EvilRoeSlade]

MThis is just another player's opinion, but I really wouldn't generalize all the clans to be "good leadership atmosphere" or "bad leadership atmosphere" based on your experiences alone. Clan dynamics change as people enter and leave, and it's not so much as what clans have good leadership as where the good leaders are playing at any given time.

And yet, there must be some reason why some clans are perpetually starved for players and never manage to create plots or provide entertainment for the playerbase at large.

I'd say let Maybe42or54 generalize.

[Jherlen]

And yet, there must be some reason why some clans are perpetually starved for players and never manage to create plots or provide entertainment for the playerbase at large.

That's what I took issue with. Every clan I've seen has had high points of action and points of inactivity. They all have potential and have created plots at some time or another. It just depends on who's playing where.

EDIT: And yes, I realize I said myself earlier that clans are perpetually starved for recruits. I meant that in the context that even in the active clans, you still feel like you don't have quite enough people. Lots of players also tend to want to avoid clans as a whole for whatever reason, and so as a recruiter you feel like you have to convince people to join instead of the other way around. I didn't mean that some clans are recruit-starved because they suck while the "good" clans get all the people, because the people will go wherever the leaders and action is, be that in the Byn, Salarr, Kurac, or whatever.

[Gaare]

I totally agree with Jherlen. The original post was from Tza'i Byn, so better to give an example from it.

I had a period in Tza'i Byn with three RPT or PPTs for each week, it was full of people, that clothing of Byn had some worth, etc.. I had another period, in which I hardly remeber of some fun gatherings, RPTs, good leadership scenes, etc..

Also IMO, all organizations have some place in the dynamics of Zalanthas. Templarates have some place of creating plots, Noble Houses are there with their coins, militia stands within the interaction of the clans in the cities, Byn joins jobs needs muscle, Kurac stands somewhat in the middle standing and watching what's going on around.. Shortly, I do not think there can be some easy comparation of clans.

[Maybe42or54]

I never said there were not ups and downs.

And the leadership atmosphere contributes to the severity and longevity of those ups and downs, regardless of God willing it (holds up his left hand) or not.

[Morrolan]

There are lots of non-muscle leaders worth their salt.  Be a good role-player, and the world plays with you.  Unless you're role-playing a hermit.


Why does the Byn have a preponderance of leaders listed here?  First, I agree, because players -love- their first clan.

Second, because the simplicity of the clan (kill shit, get paid) leaves lots of room for personal motivation.  (Again, sort of mentioned, already.)

Third, because the sheer numbers of people who come through the clan, when it is active, allows for a lot of interaction, with lots of people.  Other clans sometimes, and this happens to the Byn as well, fall into the problem of too few people trying to get things moving.  The Byn is very non-performance oriented.  And they'll hire just about anyone, because of their newbie-clan status.

The Byn Wants you!
Join!  Train!  Kill!  Drink!


Morrolan

[Rindan]

The Byn is awesome because it is one of the few clans that at times gets large enough to have true internal conflict.  My last Byn character was under then Sergeant Sujaal.  It was easily one of the best times I have had with a character.  The reason why it was so awesome was because there were so many personalities in the clan.  There was serious internal strife within the clan.  There were people that my character was best friends with, and there were people that my character took every possible second to torment.  

There were complex interpersonal relationships the likes of which are absent anywhere else on the MUD for the most part.  I recall one fellow whom my character hated with a real passion.  I spent my time (in my character's ham-fisted way) getting everyone else to hate that character and in general torture the poor bastard.  At one point this character made friends with a trooper who was a friend of one of my friends.  The relationships were deep and complex.

If you want deep interpersonal conflict that doesn't involve nobility and rich folks, the Byn is it in Armageddon.  Other clans that get big enough to house such conflict (like Kurac) are too united to have very strong internal conflict within the low ranking commoners.  People like the Byn because it is one of the few places where you can play a poor very "Zalanthas" character who is neck deep in interpersonal relationships.  Until there exists some other outlet for commoners to get together with other commoners, I imagine the Byn is going to be one of the top clans.  If you don't want to be isolated, rich, or a criminal, the Byn is your only option.  

We have a dozen rich factions to join, a few isolated factions to join, and a small smattering of criminal organizations that tend to wink out quickly that you can join, but the Byn is the only faction for your average Joe commoner.

[amoeba]

Other clans that get big enough to house such conflict (like Kurac) are too united to have very strong internal conflict within the low ranking commoners.

I disagree on the comment with Kurac.  I was in it in a leadership role when it seems half the mud was playing there.  There was an -unbelievable- amount of interpersonal conflict.  It was a very interesting time.  I remember one night the who count was 16, at the time there were 7 kuraci all crammed into one watchtower.   I also remember a good number of remarkable RPers who helped to fuel the conflicts.    

The point people seem to be making over and over again, is that a large number of players breeds conflict.  The byn will always have an edge on that, not because they are inherently better than everyone else, but because of thier mission and status of taking in most anyone with 300 sid.  coupled with the "join the byn" mantra, they will (at least in Allanak) tend to have more people.  

I also remember a time with the delfs, there were only a handful of delfs about at any given time, but the conflict between them and with the outside groups was also very intense.  There were plenty of good leaders, just not as memorable to the world at large, as they were only known to a small circle of players.  Conflict is what you make of it. Sure, larger numbers gives an edge, but contrary to popular belief the byn is not the only place to make this happen.

[flurry]

I also disagree with Rindan's comment about internal conflict at the low-ranking commoner level in Kurac.  In my experience, it was abundant.