The curse of stats.

[RunningMountain]

Since it's been a while. I'll start another discussion revolving around the stat system on the mud. I think I'll list the positive and negative things about it just to see how we can improve it. And I know it can be improved upon.


The positives:
-The random rolls make for interesting character quirks. Unless you play an aged character and are guaranteed horrible rolls. But then again when you get that lucky roll and have two AI and two VG you don't feel so bad about it.
Really I think that's the only thing positive about it.

The negatives:
-Unrealistic rolls. The skinny man rolls exceptional strength. The burly man rolls ai agility but poor strength.

-Only 4 stats. Meaning that having a high number in one slot can make you good at a number of things. Such as having a really high agility, you can then strike many times in combat, it adds bonuses to your archery and throw. It determines how well you dodge in combat, etc, etc.
It just doesn't leave much open to other bonuses, so it really unbalances things for characters.

-Age affecting stats?
A huge thing right now is that age affects stats but not realistically. As of now you will constantly find people playing young characters which is fine, if you make it into old age you're quite a survivor. But anything over a certain age simply gets all penalties to every stat. I've experimented briefly and I doubt that 4-5 characters can be just luck of the roll.


I've seen lots of systems proposed, and I mainly want to see some staff feedback. Are any coders willing to take on the stat system and play with it? Look at how age affects them.  And I'd like to see more systems proposed in this thread. We've seen lots of threads on this, and if someone wants to dig them up for reference that'd be good.

-RM

[bloodfromstone]

I'm not a big fan of the stat system myself. There is a certain amount of fun to getting to see your new character's stats. There's a small thrill that you might get the uber stats this time. That's (somewhat) great from a purely gameplay perspective, but as far as roleplaying, it falls short. It can be extremely frustrating to be the huge, brawny man and RP all of the downfalls of your size, (constantly getting hungry, always shouldering into people in crowds, etc, etc) but the frail, buxom woman can heft you onto her shoulders and waltz around with no problem. It can be annoying or, in extreme examples, downright silly.

I've always liked systems where everyone is balanced from the get go. Something with points to distribute over stats. Everyone gets the same numbers and can distribute (or not) as they feel fit. Sure, there's some twinkishness available. Someone can just pick the "best" stats, rather than what fits their character. But, as long as the numbers provided are balanced carefully, the opportunity for twinking doesn't seem to be strong enough to cast the idea out. I'd much rather the muscle on the muscular characters mean something.

[Bebop]

Hrm.  One thing I really don't like is the way stats effect age and don't change with age.  Because it may be fun to start out a character when they are a child but they will always be weak, you would think the opposite would happen if you started working on your abilities as a child and grew from there. At this point children PC's are useless in a lot of ways, usually getting crappy stats from what I've encountered.  I love the idea of playing a starving little kid thief or spy or little tinkerer.  But the stats just won't really let you work with your skills for the most part.  The youngest character you can play is thirteen.  In the ole' days people were getting married and going off to fight wars at that age. Thirteen year old's are a litlte more capable then their stats make them out to be.  I don't think they could be as uber as a full grown adult but I do think there stats make them almost unplayable unless you get lucky since there's such a disadvantage to wisedom.  Or at least after a few years until they're 18 or older you should be able to wish up and get a reroll now that they're more experienced or some such thing.

I've seen characters that are acrobats and their first roll had below average agility... what?  I do like how the stat system is divided for the most part, I think it works well in alot of ways making you more capable in certain areas.  It always you to work with your character in a simple fashion it's nice.  You see other muds where so many people are focused solely on leveling up and these complicated system, I hate that, it's not about the character it's about these intricate levels and shit.  I just think the way stats are actually rolled, not divided, may need a little more tweaking.

[Ghost]

Hrm.  One thing I really don't like is the way stats effect age and don't change with age.  Because it may be fun to start out a character when they are a child but they will always be weak, you would think the opposite would happen if you started working on your abilities as a child and grew from there.

The stats do get age effects.  When your character's age category changes (from young to adult, or adult to mature...etc) if you are logged into the game at that moment, it automatically adjusts your stats as well.  If you were not logged in, you may email to the mud account, and explain the situation.  At which point, you again get the age effects on your stats.

At least, this was what I was told when I asked to the mud account.

[Puppet]

I like the stat system as it is. I've discovered that stats are not nearly as important as we sometimes think they are. I played a warrior once with below average everything except for maybe agility? I remember when I first saw the stats I nearly died, thinking my character was gimped, but the more I played, the less it seemed to matter.

I don't know... don't place stats up onto some sort of pedestal and make them a focus. Leave them like they are and just try not to worry about them as much.

[sarahjc]

I like the stat system the way it is and it doesn't really bother me when I get a bad roll. Just makes the PC a bit more challenging. If you play a PC long enough, your stat roll really just won't matter all that much. Playing a child will most likely get you crappy stats, but you get a re-roll when you become an adult. I don't know about playing someone old. As far as I know it's probably not a penalty unless you are making a 60 year old PC. But then again, you are an old and beaten up Vet at that point. So I think it's warranted that the arthritic joints from all those broken bones start to take effect.

Maybe you just got a bit of bad luck RM, or maybe the Imms are just fucking with you.  :twisted:

[Gaare]

Well, if there is no solution of a problem, then it is not a problem at all. I personally am happy of the system how it is, but even I would not, there is no solution for such. Here are what I think about possible different stat systems.

- Distribution of stats at character creation.

IMO such a change like stat distribution only leads to powergaming.
Also, ome people are simply better then others, that's realistic. I like fate to decide to such things.

- IMM assigned stats from general desc. of PCs.

This only ends with some PC population of large, muscular PCs for warriors, lean, agile looking PCs for assasins... Or big headed gemmers.

- No stat system... Every PC begining at same level. (All stats average)

I like playing heros or heroines whom have usually have above level of physical attributes from the common virtual population. They have chance to become something big.. So, I would not want every PC to begin with same stat level with common population.

- Stat increase/decrease within the Game.

Well, this kind of change only adds jest to our shining twinking sides, and fellow powergamer players. That's somewhat realistic, but I really like to see ARM as far as possible from numbers, hit rolls, damage rolls, etc..  So, for me this is no solution either. Also, it sounds extremely difficult to code decrease of stats.

[Rindan]

The stat system does not bother me all that much.  I tend to ignore them from the most part and just accept them as quirks of my character.  Rarely are they all that important.  A low strengthen muscular warrior is a guy who might have chronic shoulder pain and so can't use his full strength.  A low agility pick pocket is just someone who isn't as quick as other people and has to make it up with skill.

I think people blow the utility of stats way out of proportion.  Within a race, skill simply trumps stats unless you are evenly skilled.  Outside of a race, stats are so wildly different that it doesn't matter how lucky you role.  A half giant will always hurt like hell if it hits you.

I think that if you are coming up with characters where getting a low stat or two destroys your character concept, your character concept is probably a little shallow.  For instance, instead of doing something along the lines of "When Fred was growing up, he was always the strongest one around.  This made him want to be a mercenary." do "When Fred was growing up, he lived with his father who was a bad ass mercenary.  In an attempt to gain his father's approval, Fred is hell bent on becoming a mercenary."  One is kind of cliché and relies on a good strength role, the other is a reasonable circumstance that led Fred to being a warrior.

[Anonymous]

I just wish there was an abuse free way to let you write your desc after you see your stats.  That's all.

You enter chargen, provide everything but sdesc, desc and background, hit a button and the character gets generated and made permanent (so that you can't quit out of chargen if you don't like your stats), then you are shown your stats/given a chance to reroll and prompted to enter sdesc, desc and background.  Once that is done you hit submit.

[rishenko]

Although I lean towards disagreement, I can buy the strength and agility issues requiring only minor adjustments to a character's history, persona or day to day life.  However, I think endurance and wisdom are out of whack.  

For instance, I had the idea of playing a character who wasn't the brightest bulb on the block.  After I received the character, his other three stats were right on the mark, but his wisdom was exceptional.  I didn't want to reroll because everthing else was on the money (and no, they weren't amazing either).  However, since intelligence and/or wisdom can have a huge impact on your rp, it totally threw off my idea and forced me to rethink the character and how they would react to various situations.

Endurance is another item that has a definite association with a person's life.  A kid who only took money from customers for his parents his whole life would have nothing in terms of stamina as compared to a foot messenger or mining slave.  In real life, when I used to do nothing but sit behind a desk, I would get winded after walking up only two flights of stairs.  After I started working out, a few months later I could easily manage a 12 mile bicycle run at approximately 11-13 mph.  Endurance is something that is directly affected by the amount of physical activity that a person regularly exerts.

Suggestion for Stat Modifiers:
I would suggest that when players create apps, that they be given the ability to affect the random rolling of their stats.  For each stat, the person would choose either "emphasize", "ignore", or "no modifier", along with brief reasons for why a stat would be affected.  The imms reviewing the application could then reject it if the person seemed to be a twinkie, or run the app through the character generation script.  The script would take the modifiers into account, making sure that a strength roll received a plus (within reason) and the other stats received their respective negatives.  While still quite random, this would give players the ability to further customize their character to better fit the role they had in mind.

More Stat Types?
I think that it would be a huge pain in the butt for the coders of Arm to create new stat types or to break apart existing stat types.  If the system was breaking right now, I would suggest they consider it.  However, this game has been running for several years and it appears that the player base has, overall, been unaffected.  If I were to consider stat changes, I would like to see the following:

* Strength: How much weight can you move around?  How much force is behind your movements?
* Stamina: Basically endurance.  How long can you sustain prolonged physical activity?  Amount of movement, stun points, fatigue from fighting.
* Dexterity: How well do you use your hands and other bodily appendages?  How well do you balance?  This would affect combat, acrobatic and crafting skills.
* Agility: How fast do you punch or catch things?  How fast can you run or attack?
* Intelligence:  How quickly do you pick up on things?  Learning languages, skills, etc.
* Wisdom:  How much insight do you have into others or how you interact with others?  You know what to say to other people, how to lie, how to read others.  Would possibly affect psionics and such.
* Health:  You may be able to run like a gith, but are you susceptible to sickness? Prone to health issues?  Would affect hp and the ability to fight off poison/sickness.

In any case, that's my two cents.

[Rindan]

For instance, I had the idea of playing a character who wasn't the brightest bulb on the block.  After I received the character, his other three stats were right on the mark, but his wisdom was exceptional.  I didn't want to reroll because everthing else was on the money (and no, they weren't amazing either).  However, since intelligence and/or wisdom can have a huge impact on your rp, it totally threw off my idea and forced me to rethink the character and how they would react to various situations.

First, I am pretty sure you can always wish up and/or drop the MUD an e-mail if you want a stat reduced.  One e-mail and a change of objective is all that it would take to reduce a stat.  I highly doubt you would get any arguments from the imms over it.

Second, wisdom is an easy stat to play either way.  If your wisdom is high, but you are playing a stupid fellow, just consider your wisdom to be muscle memory.  Unless you are a magiker, wisdom really only has an effect upon how quickly you learn things and a few minor skills.  A warrior with a high wisdom is just a guy who tends to pick up on how to swing his sword a little quicker then others.  I have met people as dumb as a rock but with the ability to pick up sports and other such skills much faster then me.  That doesn't make me smart or them stupid.  Intelligence simply is not that general.  Smart people are not automatically awesome at learning how to hit a baseball.  I would never base my character's intelligence or cunning off of the wisdom stat.

[ale six]

As far as wisdom goes... I play a character how I want to play them and basically ignore the coded wisdom stat in regards to personality. If I wanted to make a dumb as a rock mercenary, I'd play her being dumb as a rock even if she had AI wisdom. Maybe she can learn things quick, but that sure don't make her smart. I get character concepts and mentalities in mind before I roll up the pc, and I wouldn't want to scrap a whole personality because of a wisdom roll.

For the other stats, it -would- be nice if you could get an idea of someone's stats based on their description. ICly, guard recruiter types would all want the tall, muscular men because they're tall and muscular and healthy looking. Right now that tall muscular man might be a clumsy runt, while his friend the wimpy, thin man might be Superman stats wise. That's sort of silly.

I do kind of like CRW's idea, at least as far as seeing stats before you write sdesc/mdesc. Not sure if you need them for the background though.

[rishenko]

Second, wisdom is an easy stat to play either way.  If your wisdom is high, but you are playing a stupid fellow, just consider your wisdom to be muscle memory.  Unless you are a magiker, wisdom really only has an effect upon how quickly you learn things and a few minor skills.  A warrior with a high wisdom is just a guy who tends to pick up on how to swing his sword a little quicker then others.  I have met people as dumb as a rock but with the ability to pick up sports and other such skills much faster then me.  That doesn't make me smart or them stupid.  Intelligence simply is not that general.  Smart people are not automatically awesome at learning how to hit a baseball.  I would never base my character's intelligence or cunning off of the wisdom stat.

Ahhh, make sense.  I could buy that.  I was always of the opinion that the stats reflected your character as a whole.  If they had a high wisdom, they were overall pretty intelligence, so on and so forth.  Thanks for the correction.

[WarriorPoet]

I find it very jarring to see the thick-shouldered guy saying he can't use that longsword because it's too heavy, yet the emaciated youth has no trouble swinging it around.

I dislike the stat system, but wouldn't like to see any sweeping changes, really. Just an option to reroll your stats without being stuck with the second set. I always hate getting a set of stats that doesn't match the char at all, only to reroll and get even worse, but be stuck with the second batch.

If that was fixed I would probably say leave things as they are. I like the simplicity of the four stat system, though I dislike that some NPC scripts run off of one stat alone, and the lack of this stat means insta-death, not matter how uber you are without it.

-WP

[LoD]

I agree that statistics which don't mirror your character concept can be somewhat frustrating.  There have been a good many suggestions made in previous threads about maniulating one's stats such as:

Stats by Priority

Some players would like the ability to select the order in which they'd like their rolled stats to fall (i.e. str, end, wis, agi).  This might help the massive, barrel chested men/women of the world actually end up with a decent strength.  I'm afraid that we would also see players continually picking what they consider to be the "best" order for the most hard coded benefit.

Stats by Distribution

The idea of everyone starting out with the same point total and allowing for customization would probably degenerate into min/maxing for most people.  Random stats help keep the emphasis off numbers by removing the control, and thus, the amount of attention given to them.  I also agree that it makes sense to have a world where some people are simply better than others.

Stats prior to Creation

One of the suggestions in this thread was to allow players to see their character's stats prior to creating the sdesc and mdesc so that you could describe them apporpriately and/or adjust the background.  This probably wouldn't work for one of two reasons:

-Players would use this feature simply to check their stats and start over if they didn't like them.

-Imms would have to approve a character twice.  Once so they can look at their stats, and again once they've made any desired revisions.

Are there alternatives?

As many have suggested, any change in the way statistics are handled that put more power into the player's hands of customizing where points are placed will likely result in abuse/powergaming issues.  I don't mind the randomization of the stats and have lived with them for the most part.

You can certainly email the MUD account or wish up if a stat is really affecting a major portion of your gameplay (i.e. ranger who can't hold even the lightest of bows), and I imagine they will probably meet your needs as long as you don't mind losing a few points in other stats to make up for the change.

If I were to propose some kind of solution, it would be for characters that have a total point value below a certain mark.  Let's say that we assign the following points:

Very Poor - 1
Poor - 2
Below Average - 3
Average - 4
Above Average - 5
Good - 6
Very Good -7
Extremely Good - 8
Exceptional - 9
Absolutely Incredible - 10

If someone rolled a character with a combined point total (strength, agility, endurance and wisdom) of 16 or lower, then they would be given an extra option such as a command called "Improve".  This command would be a one time ability to improve one particular stat by perhaps 2 levels.

This way, only the people with truly pitiful rolls would have the opportunity to make themselves feel a little better about the prospect of their character.

For example, someone rolls the following:

Your strength is average, your agility is below average,
your wisdom is below average, your endurance is good.

This would be exactly 16 points (remember, this isn't set in stone).  So they would be given the opportunity to Improve[/i] one of their stats by 2 levels.

>improve strength
You choose to improve your strength.
Saving Wimpy.

Your strength is good, your agility is below average,
your wisdom is below average, your endurance is good.

Now the player may be a bit more happy about his situation.  Placing a cap on the point total will ensure that this feature is made available only to those characters that could really use a little help managing some simple actions.

-LoD

[RunningMountain]

Like I said before I like the randomization of the stat system. But I also dislike it. Its a catch-22.

Just some ideas.

What I would like to see is either more stat choices, therefore spreading it out into a broader category, OR allowing the characters to customize themselves more, such as picking which stat gets rolled highest or allowing them 1 stat to be a high roll while the rest are given penalties. An example is a recent PC of mine that I wanted to have high strength, I didn't care about anything else. I could care less if I had poor in every category except strength, what happens? I roll ai agility and average stregnth. And I'd rather not special app a character just for a stat quirk.

Adding dexterity on top of agility to determine how many attacks you get in combat would help balance that out. That's just one example. Agility is a way powerful stat, it helps with so much that it makes some NPCs, such as halflings nearly impossible to kill.

Another ridiculous quirk is how desert elves can roll 140 hp. From the documentation:
mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames.

It's things like this that unbalance the game. I've had d-elves with average endurance roll 130 hp. The 'luck of the roll' system makes things very strange to roleplay. I dislike saying well he has a high pain threshold. That's just plain silly.

Hit points are based on endurance yes, but I always saw them as how big or thick your character is such as half-giants. Not just how much pain they can take in combat, which should be an entirely different roll in the code such as pain-modifier to reduce damage taken.  Another stat such as toughness or stamina could help with this.

Maybe I'll think up some more stuff later.

[RunningMountain]

'm afraid that we would also see players continually picking what they consider to be the "best" order for the most hard coded benefit.

As opposed to players suiciding horrible stat rolls and remaking to get better ones? Which players DO. So no matter what no system is perfect. Even the one we have now, because twinkish players will just keep remaking until they get that roll that they want. I used to do it.

-RM

[Dakurus]

Players suiciding for stats would be considered bad form.
And if observed will be noted on the player's account.

Dakurus

[Sir Diealot]

Players suiciding for stats would be considered bad form.
And if observed will be noted on the player's account.

Dakurus

Bolded for context.  Players.. uhm.. myself in the past, included, log in at non-peak hours to 'accidentally' die to a tarantula, or raptor, or convenient mob..  It is less likely to be observed, especially if you wish up for an easy wish, like 'animate this merchant plz' to see if an IMM is on.. o.o

Sorry for derail.

[RunningMountain]

I think Diealot has the right of it. It's highly unlikely that players will be caught doing it. Any system can be abused. And I think the one we have for stats right now is the most abused. I would be amazed to see the stats of some o the PCs in game right now, just to be curious as to how many are playing with great stats and how many aren't.

-RM

[Sanvean]

Changing the current system is on the list of "Things We Would Like to Do at Some Point".  There's been a lot of good ideas generated regarding this over the years.

[amish overlord]

My biggest beef has been with strength if anything. I get stuff like the scrawny kid your strength is omg you're superman. Sure kinda cool but doesn't fit that my character is a twig. Then get the opposite the big musclebound brute and try to wield a broom and told it is too heavy and strength is poor. If want a change to state I say mail the imms or wish up saying hey my twig boy here has real high strength can i have it lowered(maybe ask for a boost in one other if appropriate) or my big brutes strength makes me unable to wield a broom can it be boosted a bit. The imms will be glad to help out....usually. Do not abuse the system the imms probably note making changes to characters and can see what your desc/background says.

Amish Overlord  

[amish overlord]

Also if you improve yourself in the game, such as exercise or whatever to improve a stat, email imms.Who knows maybe they wiull boost whatever stat you requested. Or even lower if it you rp getting it weaker

Amish Overlord  

[Sephiroto]

My beef with the stats is thaty they don't seem to have any randomality for my characters.  My characters, in general, usually get mundane strength and endurance and decent to pretty good agility and higher wisdom.  I think it's a little crazy that out of all the characters I've had in 5 years I've seen Very Good strength only once.  It's usually good or above average, while I'll get very good agility or widsom almost every time.

[Agent_137]

i voted yes and no.

The stat system is unbalanced but I don't give a damn.