Tuluk and Allanak distance.

[Rindan]

Travelling from one end of the known world to the other?  No, it's not -supposed- to be convenient.  It's not -supposed- to be something you do every single RL day.  It's not -supposed- to be as short a time of possible.

This is TRAVEL.  It was one of the largest impediments on early peoples.  It's not safe.  It's not easy.  It's not convenient.  It's not commonplace.  Taking a trip from one side to the other, or even to Luir's, should be something that you don't just do spur of the moment.  It's something you plan for.

I agree it should be hard and inconvenient, but not from an OOC perspective.  It should be a pain in the ass ICly because the trip is long, full of danger, you need loads of water, and you need to worry about raiders.  It should not be a challenge because you are working and have two kids, and you can't clear four hours of your day.  The OOC need to quit should not dictate how far you can travel.

I personally would not be against stretching distances out a little, but the OOC issues associated with making travel longer absolutely need to be taken into consideration.  There absolutely needs to be more kank accessible quit safe points.  If you want to see OOC behavior, watch someone who NEEDS to quit right away but is not near a quit safe point.  Real life comes before the game.  

Additionally, you absolutely need to make traveling as a group easier if you want to spread the game farther apart.  As it stands, nothing kills off Byn sergeants quicker then the OOC stress of managing quitting in the desert.  Making the world bigger will just exasperate this problem.

I am all for stretching the world out a little, especially between Allanak and Tuluk.  I just think that before such a thing could even be contemplated, the OOC issues that already exist and that would be made worse by a stretching need to be addressed.

[Sokotra]

You keep on showing me that helpfile.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Being a human, I am not unwholly unlike a chimpanzee.  But I cannot swing naked through the trees (THOUGH I HAVE TRIED), and a chimpanzee cannot type this post.

Simlarly, an ant cannot be trained to be used as a pack animal, and a kank cannot climb on ceilings.

That phrase doesn't mean that you can declare that a kank has any number of abilities that a giant ant might (though in truth such a creature would have only the ability to cease to exist if anyone thought too much about it).

As a matter of fact, I think that the only reason that was written was to give the reader an idea of what a kank looks like.  Appearance is where the similarities between kanks and giant ants ends.

I don't think claiming that a kank has such prestigious speed is any reason to speed from Allanak to Tuluk in ten minutes.  If kanks were truly that fast, no one would bother fighting on foot, they'd just ride each down on these unbelievably fast beasts.

Well, it's obvious that a kank is not exactly like a giant ant.  I don't think that was the point.  The point was that a kank has some qualities that a giant ant might have.  You have some good points, but it seems like you are just trying to be right when everything isn't exactly black and white here.  It compares kanks to giant ants in the documentation and in the game you can find places where kanks are described as 'speedy'.  Yeah, this may not mean that they can move like a Ferrari on smooth concrete, but they are fast.  

But yes, it is good to discuss the IC nuances of travelling long distances in the game... Allanak to Tuluk in this case is something I've been wondering about recently myself.  How should this be RP'd out?  One rest stop?  Two rest stops?  If you take the roads, as it is now, you really might not even have to stop at all... but my question is how should this be RP'd out?  Ignore the fact that you can make it the rest of the way with no problem, and stop for a rest anyway?  Sure, you might be able to make it much of the time without encountering any problems along the way, but this is not guaranteed.  Gith this day, none the next.  No gortoks today, a pack chasing you down tomorrow.  

I've also seen some good points about playing time problems, inconsistencies, etc...  Not all of us always have a guaranteed, large block of time to play.  Does this mean that those that have alot more time will excel in the game or have some other perceivably unfair advantages as opposed to those of us that don't have alot of time or are gone for longer absences than most?  Unfortunately, yes.  I guess it isn't really avoidable for the most part, but I imagine there are some things that can be done to NOT make things too much worse against players with less time on their hands.

Despite all of this, I've had thoughts myself that it might be nice for the distances across the known world to be greater.   But then there's the problem of playability and number of people in the game with which you have the chance to interact.  I think this has probably already been discussed... but just thought I'd throw my thoughts in there.

[Jherlen]

I don't see a problem with distances.

The fact is most independent pcs that travel alone will die, sooner or later, no matter how buff they are. Traveling cross-world alone is dangerous, which is why not everyone can do it.

Also keep in mind that a single rider or small group can travel far, far faster than a large group, and it still takes a half-day ride without breaks for an experienced rider to get between cities, and that's not always over safe country.

And keep in mind the entire Known World is mostly desert and dead plains. It's not exactly a short ride through happy valleys and meadows with plentiful resources.

I guess to me, it's easy to settle with the fact that the world is as big as it feels, and to me it doesn't feel small.

[Maybe42or54NLI]

You keep on showing me that helpfile.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Being a human, I am not unwholly unlike a chimpanzee.  But I cannot swing naked through the trees (THOUGH I HAVE TRIED), and a chimpanzee cannot type this post.

Simlarly, an ant cannot be trained to be used as a pack animal, and a kank cannot climb on ceilings.

That phrase doesn't mean that you can declare that a kank has any number of abilities that a giant ant might (though in truth such a creature would have only the ability to cease to exist if anyone thought too much about it).

As a matter of fact, I think that the only reason that was written was to give the reader an idea of what a kank looks like.  Appearance is where the similarities between kanks and giant ants ends.

I don't think claiming that a kank has such prestigious speed is any reason to speed from Allanak to Tuluk in ten minutes.  If kanks were truly that fast, no one would bother fighting on foot, they'd just ride each down on these unbelievably fast beasts.

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

And if you fall off those fast beasts, it hurts like hell. Even in the sand.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

[Armaddict]

I agree it should be hard and inconvenient, but not from an OOC perspective.

Distance is an IC and OOC perspective.  So is time.  Keeping the distance -short-, or the travel time -short-, may be convenient for those people who don't want to log in, plan a trip, get things set up, and then make the long, arduous journey, but it's also blatantly toning down the desert world.

I would like it a -lot- if the space out in the desert was increased.  Make it a -huge- desert/scrubland, with these pockets of civilization where you can survive.

If you want things to be oocly convenient because otherwise some people wouldn't be able to travel, I say that it helps reflect the IC'ness of the whole situation.  Most people -don't- travel.  I don't think most people can.  I'd love to see a whole lot less independent travel between cities (while merchants and escorts between them would become a lot nicer.  It's a -long- journey.), and a whole lot more wilderness that may get used less, but adds to the effect of people who survive out in that stuff are fucking crazy!

I do see the problems with actually changing things, though.  So I just support the original poster.  Play it realistically.  Used to do the travel myself, last few characters I've completely avoided it just because of how...weird...it is, to cross the huge space in less than an IC day.  Can't imagine two mortal enemies being that close together.

[Larrath]

A single game day is long enough for a kank to get from Allanak to Tuluk.
And I'd be guilty too, if I ever really did it, of the super-fast travelling between Allanak and Tuluk.

Putting kanks aside (who only look like ants - what normal ants make honey?), I think I has the solution.


Caravans.  You need to travel from Tuluk to Allanak?  Go to a mercenary/caravaning company, pay a few hundred 'sids and be put on their wagon, which goes from Tuluk to Allanak.  This wagon will have three rooms - the normal room where it's a moving wagon, the Tuluk room and the Allanak room.  When you quit in the Tuluk room, your character will be locked for one RL hour (you won't be able to enter the game), and when you log back in after that, you will be in the Tuluki wagonyard.  Same thing for Allanak.
The one-hour lockage will stop people from teleporting all over, and the steep prices will make this impractical for most.

Now, we want distances!

[Angela Christine]

Putting kanks aside (who only look like ants - what normal ants make honey?),  

Honey ants do.  http://www.sasionline.org/antsfiles/pages/honeyants/honey.html


Angela Christine

[sarahjc]

Only AC would find it.. And now, I know more than I will ever need to about Ants.

Thanks AC, we are always a little more educated because of you.  

[EvilRoeSlade]

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

It isn't my responsibility to disprove your point, it's yours to prove it.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

I think what we're really arguing about is how fast kanks can walk.

[flurry]

So perhaps a kank's walking speed is 23-28 miles per hour? And running speed is 36?

A walking speed that fast? :shock:  I think something would have to be a lot bigger than a kank to walk that fast.

But about that ant-speed thing...when you scale things up, they get faster but their relative speed gets slower.  Tiny things like insects move very fast relative to their length but as you go to bigger animals you get slower relative speeds.  So scaling up from an ant to a kank is going to slow its relative speed way down.

There's a lot of interesting stuff along those lines in terms of animal size and biology that this thread motivated me to read about some.  Same kind of deal for heart rates (they get slower in bigger animals in a predictable fashion) and lifespans (longer for bigger animals in some consistent way).

Anyhow...my point is just that I don't think you can realistically base a kank's speed on how fast ants move.

[Agent_137]

Ok, ok, first of all, this whole thread is based on wild ass assumptions.


I originally assumed a kank would walk about as fast as a horse.

Maybe42or54 proposed that they might indeed be much faster, being built like ants.

The whole "How fast are kanks" issue is just support for the original proposition:

"Going from Tuluk to 'Nak in less than 20 RL minutes without stopping is GAY."

Adding new rooms is out of the question, it's too much damn work, they'd have to redesign the entire world.

Putting in lag isn't unworkable, but has some issues that have been stated previously in this thread.

My favored solution is EDUCATION and AWARENESS. I think we can all agree that it's silly to zoom from 'nak to tuluk in less than half an in game day. So let's save the times we actually DO twink it out for when we absolutely have to. As in, the baby is crying, your friends are coming over, it's 4am, you know, good reasons. And let's try to encourage this ICly.

[flurry]

I agree with the overall point, but honestly, can we chill with using "gay" as a pejorative?

[Agent_137]

eh, the caps in that case were suppossed to make it sound l33ty and said in a whiny voice. Sorry if it came off serious.

I've always been amused about how sensitive people are to using racial slurs, but tend to care nothing about sexual orientation slurs.

DERAIL DERAIL.

Gah, anyway, kanks. . .

[Maybe42or54]

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

It isn't my responsibility to disprove your point, it's yours to prove it.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

I think what we're really arguing about is how fast kanks can walk.

I thought it was our community's responsibility to discuss each others ideas and further evolve them as a whole to something we can all agree on, or what have you.

But seriously. I estimated A high walking pace because Gith and all other humanoids and creatures I have seen can keep up with a running kank for up to 8 squares. (Which means my kank is damn tired and I die since it can't run that many rooms.)

[WarriorPoet]

I only skimmed the rest of the thread, as I'm short on time tonight, so if this has been addressed or rebuffed already, sorry.

I think the problem isn't the speed of kanks, the distance, or anything like that, really. It's all good. The way the players are dealing with the coded ability to frolic across the world in moments is the problem.

People are saying 'If I can zoooom from Nak to Tukuk in 20 minutes, that's no good.' So, why are you zooming along that fast to begin with? Why aren't you stopping to rest your kank more often? Why not pull up, build a fire and eat a bite? Stop and shoot a few arrows at a gith who strays too close. With a mount, the possibilities for emoting are endless. Use it. Emote more. Make those long, boring rides a little spicier. Do -something- to break the tedium of travel instead of twinking and spamming from place to place.

If I'm emoting as I go, an average trip from one city-state to another usually takes about two to three hours. This is on a good day, when I have time to dawdle along and enjoy the scenery. Now, if I don't have time for said dawdling, I will just put the trip off awhile or take it in intervals. A ride from either city to Luirs puts you at roughly the half-way point, gives you a quitspot, and just seems ICly more logical to me to stop there and rest yourself and your mount for the night/day than to press onward to your destination.

If I absolutely have to make it from one city to the other, and I need to do it NOW, I'm going to emote being ass-dragging exhausted when I arrive. I'll emote the way my kank's feelers droop or my erdlu's beak whistles as it pants raggedly, the holes in the soles of my moccasins or the blisters on my heels. That's a LONG ride/run, by anyone's standards, and if you're fresh and bright-eyed after a trip like that, 'specially one so made in SUCH good time, I'd say that's rather poor play.

-WP

[Sokotra]

Just keep in mind that not everybody lives the same lifestyle or is able to quit out wherever they feel like it.  Sure, you could argue "go play a ranger if you want to do that", as I've seen before... but this isn't always possible.  You start out with a character concept and guild that might not be a ranger, but still travels frequently and then you might end up travelling even more because of circumstances that have affected your characters life and not always able to be nearby the nifty quit-safe rooms whenever you need to go finish some work or logoff before you do a faceplant on the keyboard.  Hence, your so-called 'twinkish' travel halfway across the known world to find a place you can quit with your kank.  This happens to me often... I get tired, have work to finish after a long RP session, or whatever... need to log within a few minutes and try to find a safe spot... where, realistically there are safe spots nearby but not 'quit-safe' for you and your kank.  So you are riding swiftly across the sands and all the sudden an Imm wants to have some fun with you, or feels you need to have a more long, exhausting, and dangerous journey.  Heh, which I'm all up for... but occasionally this is at bad times and can cause problems OOC and IC for OOC reasons.  So just keep some of these things in mind before branding someone a twink.

[Agent_137]

certainly, Sokotra. have you seen the other thread with a solution to having to twink travel just so you can make it to real life work on time?

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15454

[Sokotra]

certainly, Sokotra. have you seen the other thread with a solution to having to twink travel just so you can make it to real life work on time?

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15454

Why no, I certainly have not, Mr. Agent_137... perhaps we should all go and study this wonderful idea and leap for joy at the very thought of it.

Fascinating, indeed.  

But seriously... good ideas and probably completely do-able with a little tweaking.  The end.

[Matrim]

I agree completely that the time it takes to travel between Tuluk and Allanak is way too short.  However, I also agree that LAG is BAD, even when it's a controlled delay, and, that increasing the number of rooms between the cities is absurd.  

How about increasing the number of stamina points it takes a kank to walk in the wilderness, or decreasing their stamina total? (ducks for cover).  In all honesty, the only real bad thing about running out of stamina in the wilderness is sometimes you can be resting in a room for literally DAYS and regain very little stamina.  Unless you're sitting in the middle of a harsh sandstorm, I think stamina regen in the wild is too slow.  If it were changed so that you run out of stamina faster, but made it so it can be replenished in a reasonable amount of time, I think it could benift the game in a number of aspects.

First, to address the time it takes to travel between cities, if the average rider on an average kank must stop to rest for one in game hour (or two half hour stops) to make it to Luir's, it would add some time to the trip that isn't too unreasonable, and make it seem like a much longer IC journey.

Second, it would make it far easier for raiders to plan raids if travellers had to regularily stop for rests, even if the rests only last 5-10 real world minutes.  Travellers and caravans would have to plan their trips more thoroughly and hire more mercenaries and guards.  Merchants will have to plan their shipments better--no more running 3 measly branches from Tuluk down to a crafter in Luir's for the low low price of 30 'sid.  I don't think this will necessarily have to drive prices up either, it's the way it should be working now, just some people don't take into account.  

Third, it will make long exploration trips less grueling.  The worst part of long trips are the hour long waits where a character (or his kank) has to regain stamina.  It's like being stuck in rush hour traffic.  I don't know about most people, but I would rather drive a longer route as long as i'm moving at a decent speed, than sit for half the time in stop and go traffic.  I can only role play resting/camping for so long until I find myself staring bleary eyed at the screen just watching my stamina score while idling.  

I think resting for an in game hour which is what... like 10 real world minutes, should be more than enough for any creature in Zalanthas to regain a good portion of its stamina.  And I would rather stop and rest more often, as long as the stops were a reasonable amount of time, then have to stop fewer times but have to wait forever to regain any stamina.  

If a change like this was implemented, it would be cool if rangers had a skill to rest while hiding, and be able to conceal his/her mount so people looking in from a distance wouldn't see it.  Okay i'm rambling at this point, but seriously, at the very leasy I think this could solve the original point of this post!

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't mind having kank stamina cut in half, other mounts maybe 10%.  If you stayed on the roads you could probably still make it to Luirs from either city in one go, but you would be open to the dangers of taking the predictable route.

Rather than generally increasing the rate of regeneration, I'd like to see many more mount-accessible sheltered spots (some of these could also be quit-points).  There wouldn't be many indoor spots, but almost anywhere that 2 or 3 directions are cut off by upright barriers (but not drop-offs) there should be a good chance of finding a shaded spot out of the wind.  People (even elves) can carry tents for shelter, but mounts can not enter them and there are no portable shelters for mounts.  This wouldn't be such a hardship if there were always a sheltered niche within a few leagues (or a few dozen leagues).  Once you have explored an area and know where the nearby sheltered spots are you become more valuable as a caravan guide.  Anybody can find another city by following the roads, but knowing where you can find shelter within a few leagues of the road is something that not everyone can do.  (Fixed shelter points also provide targets for would-be raiders).


Angela Christine

[Agent_137]

i've always held the opinion that kanks are widly unbalanced due to stamina and speed and carrying capacity.

Riding any other beast is codedly ludicrous in this game. And that's just sad. (and don't talk to me about fighting beasts, everyone knows dismounting is the safest and most effective thing to do. pah, pah BAH)

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, we know agent. We know how you dislike them.
And I agree. But kanks are sold everywhere. And a few of the other mountable races are just too damn weak to be any use.

[Sokotra]

i've always held the opinion that kanks are widly unbalanced due to stamina and speed and carrying capacity.

Riding any other beast is codedly ludicrous in this game. And that's just sad. (and don't talk to me about fighting beasts, everyone knows dismounting is the safest and most effective thing to do. pah, pah BAH)

Kanks wildly unbalanced?  Not sure about that.

Stamina?  I give you that their stamina is decent but I think it is comparitively mild when you put desert elves and other uber-stamina NPC's into the equation.

Speed?  Same as above.

Carrying capacity?  I haven't seen them be able to carry a whole lot, unless you are talking about certain items that might be considered underweight.  Everything else seems like it weighs your kank down pretty fast and I often get the problem of being able to mount my kank with a normal load of goods, but not being able to pack the bags on my kank because they can't carry that much.  This seems to be a little buggy or something as well... sometimes you exit and come back in the game and it changes.

And then there's the fact that most people can usually tear your kank up and then you're instantly mountless.  Kinda silly that the kank doesn't want to flee from combat, too, when you try to get it away.  And then there's several other things that probably pretty much balances things out, or worse... like being extremely vulnerable atop a kank, not being able to climb, very few rest spots for them... etc etc... I know some of these aren't major, but I definitely don't think kanks are unbalanced as far as giving people any sort of unrealistic advantage.

[moab]

I don't think kanks are unbalanced:
1. They cost a good amount of coin.
2. Most folks can only use one, securely, at a time.
3. Loose yours in the desert and you've got a LONG walk.
4. It's easy to be dismounted
5. It's dangerous to be dismounted accidently.
6. Mounted combat is broken
7. Limited kank accessible shelters in some places - so it goes.

Things that would be good to change about kanks:

1. Mounted combat should be properly effective against foot except on initial charge if the foot has a set spear or something similar.

2. It should be more difficult to hit vital places on a rider unless you're half-giant sized or have some type of pole weapon.

3. It should be easier to steal kanks from a rider (unhitching kanks, mounting kanks that aren't currently mounted) - though it was abused in the past - I guess...which lead to the current state of affairs.

4. I would like to see the need to maintain the kank via special food or grooming - like an armor brush for a kank maybe.  Something that would be consumable that the PC would have to buy and use on the kank.  This would add a bit more to the economy and make sure that the only folks that have kanks are the ones that can really afford to take care of them.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't think kanks are unbalanced:
1. They cost a good amount of coin.
2. Most folks can only use one, securely, at a time.
3. Loose yours in the desert and you've got a LONG walk.
4. It's easy to be dismounted
5. It's dangerous to be dismounted accidently.
6. Mounted combat is broken
7. Limited kank accessible shelters in some places - so it goes.

4. I would like to see the need to maintain the kank via special food or grooming - like an armor brush for a kank maybe.  Something that would be consumable that the PC would have to buy and use on the kank.  This would add a bit more to the economy and make sure that the only folks that have kanks are the ones that can really afford to take care of them.

1. So do most other mounts.
2. Applies to other mounts.
3. Applies to other mounts.
4. Applies to other mounts.
5. Applies to other mounts.
6. Handicaps other mounts more harshly than kanks.
7. Anything a kank can't enter an erdlu can't enter.

4. Implementing that would not only be weird, since your grooming a giant ant-like beast with chitin, but you aren't grooming the Erdlu, or the lizard, or the inix.


Here is why a kank is unbalanced in my opinion.
1. Can run a lot longer than an erdlu/lizard can.
2. Can carry a shit load more and still run farther.
3. It's easier to kill erdlus and lizards.
4. Most of my -human- Pcs that I've had can't mount lizards, or erdlus.
5. Pull reigns is turned off, so there is really no added benefit to riding any other mount into combat. (with the exception of a couple)
6. Costs the same amount to stable them as any other mount. (Should cost more for an inix, IMO)