Tuluk and Allanak distance.

[Agent_137]

Taken from another post:

I think buzzing from 'nak to tuluk in half a IG day is crap unless you're roleplaying hauling ass and burning out your mounts, leaving them on the side of the road dead.

But that's just me. I'll always be stopping around luirs, so it's sensible for me to go in, regardless of having to scoot around the gates.


p.s.
horses walk at about 4 miles an hour.  (i'm assuming a kank would walk around the same pace)
that's one mile in 15 minutes.
One way to imagine the RL equivalent would be to take our half of daylight, 6 hours, 360 minutes, 24 blocks of 15 minutes, therefore I imagine the towns being only 24 miles apart if it's normal to walk your kank there in half of daylight. If you take hours more literally and say "three IG hours" to get to the other town, then it's only 12 miles! I could hike that EASILY in one day. Too close.

Anyway, we'll stick with the 6 hour RL approximation, then. So in 24 miles, you have an entirely different culture and environment. Hrm. Doesn't sit right with me.

Also consider the outdoor rooms are popularly represented as "leagues." A league is 3 and a half fucking miles. I don't know how many rooms are between 'nak and tuluk, but there's surely more than EIGHT! (3*8=24)

So, therefore, going from 'nak to tuluk in half a day is ludicrous. slow the hell down or roleplay galloping down the road. And if you slow down, stop in the comfort and safety of Luirs.

p.p.s
I am NOT an advocate of increasing the distance between tuluk and 'nak. Not only is it impossible, but it's not the easiest way to fix the twinkage. There are two easier ways:
Increase lagtime for moving in outdoor rooms or create greater awareness and let the players choose to roleplay well and show newbies and twinks ICly the proper way.
"you got here in half a day? Krath! How man kanks did you leave dead on the side of the road?"
"You didn't leave any kanks? OMG MAGICKER!"


thoughts?

[jstorrie]

Playability versus realism? You can't quit out between Allanak and Tuluk, and making the trip take longer than a full RL hour makes it prohibitively inconvenient for people who don't play for eight hours at a time, I think.

[flurry]

I am inclined to agree with the original post.   While I think it's always a little tough to attempt to make realistic sense of time and distances, I think there has to be some consideration to what is sensible beyond what the code allows.

Generally speaking, day trips from Tuluk to Allanak seem pretty unreasonable to me, bordering on ridiculous.  Yeah, playability vs. realism, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that playability demands that you should be able to zip from one city-state to the other in a few IC hours.   On the other hand, I am sympathetic to the occasionally "fast-forwarding" a bit due to OOC considerations, e.g. needing to wrap up an RPT within a reasonable time frame.   That should be very much the exception, though, IMHO.

I remember more than one occasion hearing people in game talk about how just that morning they were halfway across the known world.   Like someone in Allanak casually saying how just earlier that day they were hunting in the grasslands or grey forest, or something equivalent to that.  That always struck me as wrong, although it certainly could be a case of IC boasting and not intended to sound realistic.

[Maybe42or54]

When I ride a Kank, I imagine that they are pretty damn fast. A walking pace being about 9 to 15 miles an hour and a running speed to be about 20 miles an hour.

If I watch ants outside the house, they move pretty fast for their size.
http://www.lingolex.com/ants.htm

If a man could run as fast for his size as an ant can, he could run as fast as a racehorse.

That means that a man would be able to run about 42 miles an hour.

Now, make that ant 120-ish times bigger and they can run like hell, IMHP.


So I don't see why kanks wouldn't be able to be faster then 4 miles an hour.

I would guess that there is about 420 miles between Tuluk and Allanak.
9 hours in the day, which means that my kank would have to move about 46 or 47 MPH.

Then again if a kank wanted to get to Tuluk from Allanak in 6 hours, it would have to move about 70 MPH. Which is a little past my assumption for 20 miles per hour.

If a room is 1 and a half miles then..
210 miles from Allanak to Tuluk.
9 hours in a day.
23.3 miles Per hour.


So perhaps a kank's walking speed is 23-28 miles per hour? And running speed is 36?


Not a far off assumption from my side of the screen.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Playability versus realism? You can't quit out between Allanak and Tuluk, and making the trip take longer than a full RL hour makes it prohibitively inconvenient for people who don't play for eight hours at a time, I think.

I guess Luir's is out of the question?  I've heard they've done some screwy things with their walls, but I didn't know that made it impossible to quit out there.

Maybe42or54:  Kanks are not giant ants.  They're kanks.

[Maybe42or54]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/beasts.html#kank

Kank : These large insectoid creatures, not wholly unlike gigantic ants, are commonly used as beasts of burden for riding and packing. They are both strong and quick for their size, eat relatively little, tend to be hardy, and when food is plentiful and younglings nearby certain drones produce a highly nutritious honey on relatively little supplied water. In the wild they form loose clutches, but survive well independently. As such they are favored for domestication by most of the nomadic desert tribes.

I think they are pretty much built like ants.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes yes, but there's certainly a difference between something BEING something else and something being not wholly unlike something else, now isn't there?  

[elvenchipmunk]

Playability versus realism? You can't quit out between Allanak and Tuluk, and making the trip take longer than a full RL hour makes it prohibitively inconvenient for people who don't play for eight hours at a time, I think.

I fully and whole-heartedly agree with this post. I myself can usually only manage an hour of playtime every day, and so it is quite often extremely inconvenient for me on an OOC level to stop in Luir's all the time. Although there are atleast a couple days a week when I can manage more than an hour, and I usually do trips during these times. But if I need to go during that one hour, no way am I going to stop somewhere if I don't need to.

[sarahjc]

As far as I can tell, it should be hard getting from tuluk to allanak in one day. Back when I was was riding wagons around, we could never seem to get it done in under 3Rl almost four days.

That said, kanks move a hell of a lot faster. But even still, I would assume that most people take at least a 5 count between moves and that should put you at the halfway point within 20 minutes and if you ride straight through without any baddy attacks, you'll be at the other desination well before sundown.

Maybe what should be done is make kank movement slower? Force a 5-10 second delay on ride depending on your skill level? It would definitely make trips longer and also make them more dangerous as you wouldn't be able to outrun bad things so easily.

I was thinking on that the other day. Slow down the movement of your kank, and make use of the run/flee command mounted, costing your mount a lot of stamina.

ie:

s
s
s
s
look w
s
s
emote moves along the dunes slowly
s
s
A brown, MASSIVE Carru arrives from the north

Think Shit!

flee south
You kick your foot at your kanks rear and it takes off at a run.

This way if you do see something bad, you have the option to kick your heels in and outrun it, but only at the the cost of your kank burning down it's stamina a good deal.

Also you may want to have a fail on this that gets you thrown.

Flee s
Your kank gets spooked and throws you from it's back, taking off south.

Just an Idea.

[Nao]

As far as I can tell, it should be hard getting from tuluk to allanak in one day. Back when I was was riding wagons around, we could never seem to get it done in under 3Rl almost four days.

That said, kanks move a hell of a lot faster. But even still, I would assume that most people take at least a 5 count between moves and that should put you at the halfway point within 20 minutes and if you ride straight through without any baddy attacks, you'll be at the other desination well before sundown.

Maybe what should be done is make kank movement slower? Force a 5-10 second delay on ride depending on your skill level? It would definitely make trips longer and also make them more dangerous as you wouldn't be able to outrun bad things so easily.

I was thinking on that the other day. Slow down the movement of your kank, and make use of the run/flee command mounted, costing your mount a lot of stamina.

ie:

s
s
s
s
look w
s
s
emote moves along the dunes slowly
s
s
A brown, MASSIVE Carru arrives from the north

Think Shit!

flee south
You kick your foot at your kanks rear and it takes off at a run.

This way if you do see something bad, you have the option to kick your heels in and outrun it, but only at the the cost of your kank burning down it's stamina a good deal.

Also you may want to have a fail on this that gets you thrown.

Flee s
Your kank gets spooked and throws you from it's back, taking off south.

Just an Idea.

Fine for travellers, BAD, BAD for hunters. Hunting around allanak is already hard enough, exspecially when you're not a warrior. No need to make it near impossible.

[Idealist]

Instead of failing to move your kank, how about a boost in lag?

Experienced riders can get their kanks moving around pretty damn fast outside a city. Since they are totally aware fo how to ride. Whereas my newbie, 60 year old life long warrior just takes a bit more time to get from room to room.


EvilRoeSlade, I know they aren't ants. And I know that they aren't horses.

That was my explanation. Giant ants would move pretty damn fast.
And if a kank is anything like an ant, it would move pretty damn fast.
I am interested though, what handicap do you think kanks have when it comes to moving that ants don't?

[sarahjc]

Fine for travellers, BAD, BAD for hunters. Hunting around allanak is already hard enough, exspecially when you're not a warrior. No need to make it near impossible.

I can't see why this would make things bad for hunters except it would make hunts longer. It's not that you wouldn't have the option to outrun something, you would just have to choose what you want to outrun more carefully and choose were you want to hunt a bit carefully as well. Which if you are smart, you should be doing anyway.

Understandably the south is a really hard place to be a hunter, but slowling down your kank a bit Especially if you are a ranger, shouldn't effect you too bad.

[Nao]

Fine for travellers, BAD, BAD for hunters. Hunting around allanak is already hard enough, exspecially when you're not a warrior. No need to make it near impossible.

I can't see why this would make things bad for hunters except it would make hunts longer. It's not that you wouldn't have the option to outrun something, you would just have to choose what you want to outrun more carefully and choose were you want to hunt a bit carefully as well. Which if you are smart, you should be doing anyway.

Understandably the south is a really hard place to be a hunter, but slowling down your kank a bit Especially if you are a ranger, shouldn't effect you too bad.

Slowing down wouldn't maybe. Unless all critters are faster than you. Or you run out of stamina quickly before you can get away, because you suggested more stamina drains. Knowing where to go or not doesn't help too much, because critters move from their usual locations from time to time, exspecially when someone ran into them before. And they don't move back. So a spider after your ranger and you can't even run away, also because you make fleeing very hard? Or even a newbie warrior. Strong scrabs, too, for rangers. This would kill off southern hunting even more because no one survives in the long run. If you're a hunter around Allanak, you will run into some beetle or spider sooner or later, even with looking around and all that. Making you unable to run away because either the spider bites you for not running fast enough or your kank runs out of stamina, or you can't flee because you fell off your kank, or can't outrun it before you reach the city gates? This would just ruin the playability. Also, making hunts longer would also mean makig them mroe boring, how much time do you want to spend walking before you get to that spot 10 rooms away, especially if you are solo? 5-10 seconds lag would mean a LOT of boredom there. Bad.

[sarahjc]

Well, Rangers are great riders to start with, which is why if this were something "coded" per say. It wouldn't be that big a detriment to them.

What it does prevent is the spam running all over the desert with a lightening bolt kank, which you should not be doing anyway, not that we all aren't guilty of that.

But a 5-10 second delay (depending on skill) would not be that horrendous for rangers I doubt. Try it a couple times in game,

N
Count to five
N
Count to five
N
Emote
N
Scan
N
Count to five.

Can something catch up to you? Yeah.  Can something jump out of nowhere at you? Yeah. And if you are going to be setting your kank off to a run, you best know the way home.  Or at least the fastest way to safety, then you could set your kank walking again.

I think it just adds a better sense of "realism" and a little more thought process in hunting as well as traveling instead of just spam walking away from things that want to eat you and getting to your destination as fast as possible.

Could you still type:

Mount
Flee s
S
W
S
W
S
Walk

And get away just as fast? Sure.. It would just take a bit more out of your kank to do so.. Which it really should if you are "running" away.

Yeah it would be a slightly harder.. But I don't think it would be terribly hard. Also for warriors who are much better with strength and weapons skills from the jump, it would give them a bit more of a balance by not being as good at riding after a few days.

[Nao]

Well, Rangers are great riders to start with, which is why if this were something "coded" per say. It wouldn't be that big a detriment to them.

I'm saying it's hard enough already, don't make it harder. It's not broken as it is, plenty of people die to critters already.

What it does prevent is the spam running all over the desert with a lightening bolt kank, which you should not be doing anyway, not that we all aren't guilty of that.

Well, how come those critters lightning-bolt after us then? A five second delay would make it completely impossible to run away from pretty much every aggro southern thing at all. Unless the crittes get slowed down too, which would make everything end up being the same. Doesn't make sense to me.

But a 5-10 second delay (depending on skill) would not be that horrendous for rangers I doubt. Try it a couple times in game,

N
Count to five
N
Count to five
N
Emote
N
Scan
N
Count to five.

Can something catch up to you? Yeah.  Can something jump out of nowhere at you? Yeah. And if you are going to be setting your kank off to a run, you best know the way home.  Or at least the fastest way to safety, then you could set your kank walking again.

I think it just adds a better sense of "realism" and a little more thought process in hunting as well as traveling instead of just spam walking away from things that want to eat you and getting to your destination as fast as possible.

Could you still type:

Mount
Flee s
S
W
S
W
S
Walk

See above. Sometimes you need to walk long distances for hunting, at least 30 rooms. Solo-hunting isn't the most exciting now, why make it longer than you have to? Also, this would be more than 5 seconds if you look around in between and don't just spam-walk into another room without knowing what's in it.
I don't play this game to wait for a lag to pass. This would just stretch out hunts by factor two and get more people killed without a real benefit (I think the death rate is just fine at the moment, if I want anyone to die more often then it's those characters that never leave the city). Ugh.

And get away just as fast? Sure.. It would just take a bit more out of your kank to do so.. Which it really should if you are "running" away
Yeah it would be a slightly harder.. But I don't think it would be terribly hard. Also for warriors who are much better with strength and weapons skills from the jump, it would give them a bit more of a balance by not being as good at riding after a few days.

slightly harder with a five secodns delay when the npc gets none? Running drains stamina, you know. and kanks are mounting animals, I don't see why they get tired from walking less than a 7-hour day if they really go that slow.

You also talked about making flee harder. Which is another thing I really don't like. In arm, you can see theee rooms to the south and three rooms to the west but you can't see one room to the southwest where that giant thing is lurking and trying to eat you (why!?). So you run right into it. even with smaller dunes, you would see those creatures before they get close enough to bite you, so you should have a chance to run.

[Sholdyn]

I say.. leave things alone.

It's the critters and the raiders that should make it hard to get from Nak to Tuluk and visa versa, not the distance.

There are better things to worry about than this. Do what makes you happy.

Just my opinion, and I'm sorry about it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

EvilRoeSlade, I know they aren't ants. And I know that they aren't horses.

That was my explanation. Giant ants would move pretty damn fast.
And if a kank is anything like an ant, it would move pretty damn fast.
I am interested though, what handicap do you think kanks have when it comes to moving that ants don't?

The way I see it, the biggest handicap a kank would have is its propensity to wink out of existence due to being physiologically inconcievable.

My jest is not without meaning.  Comparing a kank to a giant ant is a bad analogy since a giant ant could not exist.  If you want to say that kanks can move at unbelievable speeds, use the documentation to support your statement, not real life biology and mathematics.

[IntuitiveApathy]

EvilRoeSlade, I know they aren't ants. And I know that they aren't horses.

That was my explanation. Giant ants would move pretty damn fast.
And if a kank is anything like an ant, it would move pretty damn fast.
I am interested though, what handicap do you think kanks have when it comes to moving that ants don't?

The way I see it, the biggest handicap a kank would have is its propensity to wink out of existence due to being physiologically inconcievable.

My jest is not without meaning.  Comparing a kank to a giant ant is a bad analogy since a giant ant could not exist.  If you want to say that kanks can move at unbelievable speeds, use the documentation to support your statement, not real life biology and mathematics.

ERS, the comparison comes from 'help kank':

Kank     (General)

These large insectoid creatures, resembling giant ants, are one of the standard mounts of Zalanthas, and are available in the stables of most cities and villages. They are both strong and quick for their size, eat relatively little, and tend to be hardy. Some are kept for the honey that they produce, although these are a somewhat different breed from the riding kanks, being generally smaller and darker of chitin. In the wild they form loose clutches, but survive well independently.

Anyway, I think that:

a) Distances or travelling time should be increased (because you really can go on kankback from Tuluk to Allanak in like twenty minutes) and

b) Quitting anywhere should be available to everyone.  I've never understood the rationale that rangers can automagically make themselves safe in the wilds.  I don't think it's a matter of abuse, unless we're saying that since it's limited to only one class, it's not so bad.  I think it's probably more the idea that rangers deserve some kind of special bonus to help distinguish them from other classes (as if they don't have enough already, what with automagically finding their way through storms, their array of coded skills, etc).

[Rhyden]

I agree completely with you, Agent. It should take a hell of a lot longer to get from Allanak to Tuluk or vice versa.

Also consider the outdoor rooms are popularly represented as "leagues." A league is 3 and a half fucking miles. I don't know how many rooms are between 'nak and tuluk, but there's surely more than EIGHT! (3*8=24)

I may be wrong, but I've never ever considered one outside room to be a league. Three miles a room? I'm not gonna spend a freakin' half hour RPing out every room. I won't even spend 10 minutes per room. I highly doubt every room is a league in diamater and do not condone in calling a room a 'league' IC either.  :wink:

[Maybe42or54]

Ok Support.

From our very own website.

Kank : These large insectoid creatures, not wholly unlike gigantic ants, are commonly used as beasts of burden for riding and packing. They are both strong and quick for their size, eat relatively little, tend to be hardy, and when food is plentiful and younglings nearby certain drones produce a highly nutritious honey on relatively little supplied water. In the wild they form loose clutches, but survive well independently. As such they are favored for domestication by most of the nomadic desert tribes.

Looks like an ant. By Amoeba


Agent started out this thread with a (which points out to me that kanks are damn fast):

"you got here in half a day? Krath! How man kanks did you leave dead on the side of the road?"
"You didn't leave any kanks? OMG MAGICKER!"

Hasn't this topic come up a lot? Which means mounts are damn fast, to me.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11873&highlight=kank+travel
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8459&highlight=kank+travel
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6708&highlight=kank+travel


Each of them have good points in them.

We could change things to reflect that kanks are faster.

There is my reasoning. All I can think of, so I am done.

[Angela Christine]

Not exactly like an ant though, or they'd be able to climb straight up sheer surfaces, at least unladen.  

I remember when hunting was made harder buy having large numbers of viscious predators wandering the south.  It was really cool.  Oh, I didn't even try hunting, but by carefully riding around (and frequently running away) you could make a damned good living just from stripping corpses.   :twisted:



Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

Gravity has got to kick in somewhere. Much to the dismay of a few byn and salaar groups.

That is my defense for why it can't climb.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You keep on showing me that helpfile.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Being a human, I am not unwholly unlike a chimpanzee.  But I cannot swing naked through the trees (THOUGH I HAVE TRIED), and a chimpanzee cannot type this post.

Simlarly, an ant cannot be trained to be used as a pack animal, and a kank cannot climb on ceilings.

That phrase doesn't mean that you can declare that a kank has any number of abilities that a giant ant might (though in truth such a creature would have only the ability to cease to exist if anyone thought too much about it).

As a matter of fact, I think that the only reason that was written was to give the reader an idea of what a kank looks like.  Appearance is where the similarities between kanks and giant ants ends.

I don't think claiming that a kank has such prestigious speed is any reason to speed from Allanak to Tuluk in ten minutes.  If kanks were truly that fast, no one would bother fighting on foot, they'd just ride each down on these unbelievably fast beasts.

[Armaddict]

Playability versus realism? You can't quit out between Allanak and Tuluk, and making the trip take longer than a full RL hour makes it prohibitively inconvenient for people who don't play for eight hours at a time, I think.

While normally I support this point of view, in this case I don't.

Travelling from one end of the known world to the other?  No, it's not -supposed- to be convenient.  It's not -supposed- to be something you do every single RL day.  It's not -supposed- to be as short a time of possible.

This is TRAVEL.  It was one of the largest impediments on early peoples.  It's not safe.  It's not easy.  It's not convenient.  It's not commonplace.  Taking a trip from one side to the other, or even to Luir's, should be something that you don't just do spur of the moment.  It's something you plan for.

Just my opinion on the matter.

[Cale_Knight]

Playability versus realism? You can't quit out between Allanak and Tuluk.

Luirs.

[Rindan]

Travelling from one end of the known world to the other?  No, it's not -supposed- to be convenient.  It's not -supposed- to be something you do every single RL day.  It's not -supposed- to be as short a time of possible.

This is TRAVEL.  It was one of the largest impediments on early peoples.  It's not safe.  It's not easy.  It's not convenient.  It's not commonplace.  Taking a trip from one side to the other, or even to Luir's, should be something that you don't just do spur of the moment.  It's something you plan for.

I agree it should be hard and inconvenient, but not from an OOC perspective.  It should be a pain in the ass ICly because the trip is long, full of danger, you need loads of water, and you need to worry about raiders.  It should not be a challenge because you are working and have two kids, and you can't clear four hours of your day.  The OOC need to quit should not dictate how far you can travel.

I personally would not be against stretching distances out a little, but the OOC issues associated with making travel longer absolutely need to be taken into consideration.  There absolutely needs to be more kank accessible quit safe points.  If you want to see OOC behavior, watch someone who NEEDS to quit right away but is not near a quit safe point.  Real life comes before the game.  

Additionally, you absolutely need to make traveling as a group easier if you want to spread the game farther apart.  As it stands, nothing kills off Byn sergeants quicker then the OOC stress of managing quitting in the desert.  Making the world bigger will just exasperate this problem.

I am all for stretching the world out a little, especially between Allanak and Tuluk.  I just think that before such a thing could even be contemplated, the OOC issues that already exist and that would be made worse by a stretching need to be addressed.

[Sokotra]

You keep on showing me that helpfile.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Being a human, I am not unwholly unlike a chimpanzee.  But I cannot swing naked through the trees (THOUGH I HAVE TRIED), and a chimpanzee cannot type this post.

Simlarly, an ant cannot be trained to be used as a pack animal, and a kank cannot climb on ceilings.

That phrase doesn't mean that you can declare that a kank has any number of abilities that a giant ant might (though in truth such a creature would have only the ability to cease to exist if anyone thought too much about it).

As a matter of fact, I think that the only reason that was written was to give the reader an idea of what a kank looks like.  Appearance is where the similarities between kanks and giant ants ends.

I don't think claiming that a kank has such prestigious speed is any reason to speed from Allanak to Tuluk in ten minutes.  If kanks were truly that fast, no one would bother fighting on foot, they'd just ride each down on these unbelievably fast beasts.

Well, it's obvious that a kank is not exactly like a giant ant.  I don't think that was the point.  The point was that a kank has some qualities that a giant ant might have.  You have some good points, but it seems like you are just trying to be right when everything isn't exactly black and white here.  It compares kanks to giant ants in the documentation and in the game you can find places where kanks are described as 'speedy'.  Yeah, this may not mean that they can move like a Ferrari on smooth concrete, but they are fast.  

But yes, it is good to discuss the IC nuances of travelling long distances in the game... Allanak to Tuluk in this case is something I've been wondering about recently myself.  How should this be RP'd out?  One rest stop?  Two rest stops?  If you take the roads, as it is now, you really might not even have to stop at all... but my question is how should this be RP'd out?  Ignore the fact that you can make it the rest of the way with no problem, and stop for a rest anyway?  Sure, you might be able to make it much of the time without encountering any problems along the way, but this is not guaranteed.  Gith this day, none the next.  No gortoks today, a pack chasing you down tomorrow.  

I've also seen some good points about playing time problems, inconsistencies, etc...  Not all of us always have a guaranteed, large block of time to play.  Does this mean that those that have alot more time will excel in the game or have some other perceivably unfair advantages as opposed to those of us that don't have alot of time or are gone for longer absences than most?  Unfortunately, yes.  I guess it isn't really avoidable for the most part, but I imagine there are some things that can be done to NOT make things too much worse against players with less time on their hands.

Despite all of this, I've had thoughts myself that it might be nice for the distances across the known world to be greater.   But then there's the problem of playability and number of people in the game with which you have the chance to interact.  I think this has probably already been discussed... but just thought I'd throw my thoughts in there.

[Jherlen]

I don't see a problem with distances.

The fact is most independent pcs that travel alone will die, sooner or later, no matter how buff they are. Traveling cross-world alone is dangerous, which is why not everyone can do it.

Also keep in mind that a single rider or small group can travel far, far faster than a large group, and it still takes a half-day ride without breaks for an experienced rider to get between cities, and that's not always over safe country.

And keep in mind the entire Known World is mostly desert and dead plains. It's not exactly a short ride through happy valleys and meadows with plentiful resources.

I guess to me, it's easy to settle with the fact that the world is as big as it feels, and to me it doesn't feel small.

[Maybe42or54NLI]

You keep on showing me that helpfile.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Being a human, I am not unwholly unlike a chimpanzee.  But I cannot swing naked through the trees (THOUGH I HAVE TRIED), and a chimpanzee cannot type this post.

Simlarly, an ant cannot be trained to be used as a pack animal, and a kank cannot climb on ceilings.

That phrase doesn't mean that you can declare that a kank has any number of abilities that a giant ant might (though in truth such a creature would have only the ability to cease to exist if anyone thought too much about it).

As a matter of fact, I think that the only reason that was written was to give the reader an idea of what a kank looks like.  Appearance is where the similarities between kanks and giant ants ends.

I don't think claiming that a kank has such prestigious speed is any reason to speed from Allanak to Tuluk in ten minutes.  If kanks were truly that fast, no one would bother fighting on foot, they'd just ride each down on these unbelievably fast beasts.

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

And if you fall off those fast beasts, it hurts like hell. Even in the sand.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

[Armaddict]

I agree it should be hard and inconvenient, but not from an OOC perspective.

Distance is an IC and OOC perspective.  So is time.  Keeping the distance -short-, or the travel time -short-, may be convenient for those people who don't want to log in, plan a trip, get things set up, and then make the long, arduous journey, but it's also blatantly toning down the desert world.

I would like it a -lot- if the space out in the desert was increased.  Make it a -huge- desert/scrubland, with these pockets of civilization where you can survive.

If you want things to be oocly convenient because otherwise some people wouldn't be able to travel, I say that it helps reflect the IC'ness of the whole situation.  Most people -don't- travel.  I don't think most people can.  I'd love to see a whole lot less independent travel between cities (while merchants and escorts between them would become a lot nicer.  It's a -long- journey.), and a whole lot more wilderness that may get used less, but adds to the effect of people who survive out in that stuff are fucking crazy!

I do see the problems with actually changing things, though.  So I just support the original poster.  Play it realistically.  Used to do the travel myself, last few characters I've completely avoided it just because of how...weird...it is, to cross the huge space in less than an IC day.  Can't imagine two mortal enemies being that close together.

[Larrath]

A single game day is long enough for a kank to get from Allanak to Tuluk.
And I'd be guilty too, if I ever really did it, of the super-fast travelling between Allanak and Tuluk.

Putting kanks aside (who only look like ants - what normal ants make honey?), I think I has the solution.


Caravans.  You need to travel from Tuluk to Allanak?  Go to a mercenary/caravaning company, pay a few hundred 'sids and be put on their wagon, which goes from Tuluk to Allanak.  This wagon will have three rooms - the normal room where it's a moving wagon, the Tuluk room and the Allanak room.  When you quit in the Tuluk room, your character will be locked for one RL hour (you won't be able to enter the game), and when you log back in after that, you will be in the Tuluki wagonyard.  Same thing for Allanak.
The one-hour lockage will stop people from teleporting all over, and the steep prices will make this impractical for most.

Now, we want distances!

[Angela Christine]

Putting kanks aside (who only look like ants - what normal ants make honey?),  

Honey ants do.  http://www.sasionline.org/antsfiles/pages/honeyants/honey.html


Angela Christine

[sarahjc]

Only AC would find it.. And now, I know more than I will ever need to about Ants.

Thanks AC, we are always a little more educated because of you.  

[EvilRoeSlade]

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

It isn't my responsibility to disprove your point, it's yours to prove it.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

I think what we're really arguing about is how fast kanks can walk.

[flurry]

So perhaps a kank's walking speed is 23-28 miles per hour? And running speed is 36?

A walking speed that fast? :shock:  I think something would have to be a lot bigger than a kank to walk that fast.

But about that ant-speed thing...when you scale things up, they get faster but their relative speed gets slower.  Tiny things like insects move very fast relative to their length but as you go to bigger animals you get slower relative speeds.  So scaling up from an ant to a kank is going to slow its relative speed way down.

There's a lot of interesting stuff along those lines in terms of animal size and biology that this thread motivated me to read about some.  Same kind of deal for heart rates (they get slower in bigger animals in a predictable fashion) and lifespans (longer for bigger animals in some consistent way).

Anyhow...my point is just that I don't think you can realistically base a kank's speed on how fast ants move.

[Agent_137]

Ok, ok, first of all, this whole thread is based on wild ass assumptions.


I originally assumed a kank would walk about as fast as a horse.

Maybe42or54 proposed that they might indeed be much faster, being built like ants.

The whole "How fast are kanks" issue is just support for the original proposition:

"Going from Tuluk to 'Nak in less than 20 RL minutes without stopping is GAY."

Adding new rooms is out of the question, it's too much damn work, they'd have to redesign the entire world.

Putting in lag isn't unworkable, but has some issues that have been stated previously in this thread.

My favored solution is EDUCATION and AWARENESS. I think we can all agree that it's silly to zoom from 'nak to tuluk in less than half an in game day. So let's save the times we actually DO twink it out for when we absolutely have to. As in, the baby is crying, your friends are coming over, it's 4am, you know, good reasons. And let's try to encourage this ICly.

[flurry]

I agree with the overall point, but honestly, can we chill with using "gay" as a pejorative?

[Agent_137]

eh, the caps in that case were suppossed to make it sound l33ty and said in a whiny voice. Sorry if it came off serious.

I've always been amused about how sensitive people are to using racial slurs, but tend to care nothing about sexual orientation slurs.

DERAIL DERAIL.

Gah, anyway, kanks. . .

[Maybe42or54]

And you keep saying "No, it isn't possible. Why? Because."

It isn't my responsibility to disprove your point, it's yours to prove it.

I never said ten minutes, I said it is posible in a game day.

I think what we're really arguing about is how fast kanks can walk.

I thought it was our community's responsibility to discuss each others ideas and further evolve them as a whole to something we can all agree on, or what have you.

But seriously. I estimated A high walking pace because Gith and all other humanoids and creatures I have seen can keep up with a running kank for up to 8 squares. (Which means my kank is damn tired and I die since it can't run that many rooms.)

[WarriorPoet]

I only skimmed the rest of the thread, as I'm short on time tonight, so if this has been addressed or rebuffed already, sorry.

I think the problem isn't the speed of kanks, the distance, or anything like that, really. It's all good. The way the players are dealing with the coded ability to frolic across the world in moments is the problem.

People are saying 'If I can zoooom from Nak to Tukuk in 20 minutes, that's no good.' So, why are you zooming along that fast to begin with? Why aren't you stopping to rest your kank more often? Why not pull up, build a fire and eat a bite? Stop and shoot a few arrows at a gith who strays too close. With a mount, the possibilities for emoting are endless. Use it. Emote more. Make those long, boring rides a little spicier. Do -something- to break the tedium of travel instead of twinking and spamming from place to place.

If I'm emoting as I go, an average trip from one city-state to another usually takes about two to three hours. This is on a good day, when I have time to dawdle along and enjoy the scenery. Now, if I don't have time for said dawdling, I will just put the trip off awhile or take it in intervals. A ride from either city to Luirs puts you at roughly the half-way point, gives you a quitspot, and just seems ICly more logical to me to stop there and rest yourself and your mount for the night/day than to press onward to your destination.

If I absolutely have to make it from one city to the other, and I need to do it NOW, I'm going to emote being ass-dragging exhausted when I arrive. I'll emote the way my kank's feelers droop or my erdlu's beak whistles as it pants raggedly, the holes in the soles of my moccasins or the blisters on my heels. That's a LONG ride/run, by anyone's standards, and if you're fresh and bright-eyed after a trip like that, 'specially one so made in SUCH good time, I'd say that's rather poor play.

-WP

[Sokotra]

Just keep in mind that not everybody lives the same lifestyle or is able to quit out wherever they feel like it.  Sure, you could argue "go play a ranger if you want to do that", as I've seen before... but this isn't always possible.  You start out with a character concept and guild that might not be a ranger, but still travels frequently and then you might end up travelling even more because of circumstances that have affected your characters life and not always able to be nearby the nifty quit-safe rooms whenever you need to go finish some work or logoff before you do a faceplant on the keyboard.  Hence, your so-called 'twinkish' travel halfway across the known world to find a place you can quit with your kank.  This happens to me often... I get tired, have work to finish after a long RP session, or whatever... need to log within a few minutes and try to find a safe spot... where, realistically there are safe spots nearby but not 'quit-safe' for you and your kank.  So you are riding swiftly across the sands and all the sudden an Imm wants to have some fun with you, or feels you need to have a more long, exhausting, and dangerous journey.  Heh, which I'm all up for... but occasionally this is at bad times and can cause problems OOC and IC for OOC reasons.  So just keep some of these things in mind before branding someone a twink.

[Agent_137]

certainly, Sokotra. have you seen the other thread with a solution to having to twink travel just so you can make it to real life work on time?

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15454

[Sokotra]

certainly, Sokotra. have you seen the other thread with a solution to having to twink travel just so you can make it to real life work on time?

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15454

Why no, I certainly have not, Mr. Agent_137... perhaps we should all go and study this wonderful idea and leap for joy at the very thought of it.

Fascinating, indeed.  

But seriously... good ideas and probably completely do-able with a little tweaking.  The end.

[Matrim]

I agree completely that the time it takes to travel between Tuluk and Allanak is way too short.  However, I also agree that LAG is BAD, even when it's a controlled delay, and, that increasing the number of rooms between the cities is absurd.  

How about increasing the number of stamina points it takes a kank to walk in the wilderness, or decreasing their stamina total? (ducks for cover).  In all honesty, the only real bad thing about running out of stamina in the wilderness is sometimes you can be resting in a room for literally DAYS and regain very little stamina.  Unless you're sitting in the middle of a harsh sandstorm, I think stamina regen in the wild is too slow.  If it were changed so that you run out of stamina faster, but made it so it can be replenished in a reasonable amount of time, I think it could benift the game in a number of aspects.

First, to address the time it takes to travel between cities, if the average rider on an average kank must stop to rest for one in game hour (or two half hour stops) to make it to Luir's, it would add some time to the trip that isn't too unreasonable, and make it seem like a much longer IC journey.

Second, it would make it far easier for raiders to plan raids if travellers had to regularily stop for rests, even if the rests only last 5-10 real world minutes.  Travellers and caravans would have to plan their trips more thoroughly and hire more mercenaries and guards.  Merchants will have to plan their shipments better--no more running 3 measly branches from Tuluk down to a crafter in Luir's for the low low price of 30 'sid.  I don't think this will necessarily have to drive prices up either, it's the way it should be working now, just some people don't take into account.  

Third, it will make long exploration trips less grueling.  The worst part of long trips are the hour long waits where a character (or his kank) has to regain stamina.  It's like being stuck in rush hour traffic.  I don't know about most people, but I would rather drive a longer route as long as i'm moving at a decent speed, than sit for half the time in stop and go traffic.  I can only role play resting/camping for so long until I find myself staring bleary eyed at the screen just watching my stamina score while idling.  

I think resting for an in game hour which is what... like 10 real world minutes, should be more than enough for any creature in Zalanthas to regain a good portion of its stamina.  And I would rather stop and rest more often, as long as the stops were a reasonable amount of time, then have to stop fewer times but have to wait forever to regain any stamina.  

If a change like this was implemented, it would be cool if rangers had a skill to rest while hiding, and be able to conceal his/her mount so people looking in from a distance wouldn't see it.  Okay i'm rambling at this point, but seriously, at the very leasy I think this could solve the original point of this post!

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't mind having kank stamina cut in half, other mounts maybe 10%.  If you stayed on the roads you could probably still make it to Luirs from either city in one go, but you would be open to the dangers of taking the predictable route.

Rather than generally increasing the rate of regeneration, I'd like to see many more mount-accessible sheltered spots (some of these could also be quit-points).  There wouldn't be many indoor spots, but almost anywhere that 2 or 3 directions are cut off by upright barriers (but not drop-offs) there should be a good chance of finding a shaded spot out of the wind.  People (even elves) can carry tents for shelter, but mounts can not enter them and there are no portable shelters for mounts.  This wouldn't be such a hardship if there were always a sheltered niche within a few leagues (or a few dozen leagues).  Once you have explored an area and know where the nearby sheltered spots are you become more valuable as a caravan guide.  Anybody can find another city by following the roads, but knowing where you can find shelter within a few leagues of the road is something that not everyone can do.  (Fixed shelter points also provide targets for would-be raiders).


Angela Christine

[Agent_137]

i've always held the opinion that kanks are widly unbalanced due to stamina and speed and carrying capacity.

Riding any other beast is codedly ludicrous in this game. And that's just sad. (and don't talk to me about fighting beasts, everyone knows dismounting is the safest and most effective thing to do. pah, pah BAH)

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, we know agent. We know how you dislike them.
And I agree. But kanks are sold everywhere. And a few of the other mountable races are just too damn weak to be any use.

[Sokotra]

i've always held the opinion that kanks are widly unbalanced due to stamina and speed and carrying capacity.

Riding any other beast is codedly ludicrous in this game. And that's just sad. (and don't talk to me about fighting beasts, everyone knows dismounting is the safest and most effective thing to do. pah, pah BAH)

Kanks wildly unbalanced?  Not sure about that.

Stamina?  I give you that their stamina is decent but I think it is comparitively mild when you put desert elves and other uber-stamina NPC's into the equation.

Speed?  Same as above.

Carrying capacity?  I haven't seen them be able to carry a whole lot, unless you are talking about certain items that might be considered underweight.  Everything else seems like it weighs your kank down pretty fast and I often get the problem of being able to mount my kank with a normal load of goods, but not being able to pack the bags on my kank because they can't carry that much.  This seems to be a little buggy or something as well... sometimes you exit and come back in the game and it changes.

And then there's the fact that most people can usually tear your kank up and then you're instantly mountless.  Kinda silly that the kank doesn't want to flee from combat, too, when you try to get it away.  And then there's several other things that probably pretty much balances things out, or worse... like being extremely vulnerable atop a kank, not being able to climb, very few rest spots for them... etc etc... I know some of these aren't major, but I definitely don't think kanks are unbalanced as far as giving people any sort of unrealistic advantage.

[moab]

I don't think kanks are unbalanced:
1. They cost a good amount of coin.
2. Most folks can only use one, securely, at a time.
3. Loose yours in the desert and you've got a LONG walk.
4. It's easy to be dismounted
5. It's dangerous to be dismounted accidently.
6. Mounted combat is broken
7. Limited kank accessible shelters in some places - so it goes.

Things that would be good to change about kanks:

1. Mounted combat should be properly effective against foot except on initial charge if the foot has a set spear or something similar.

2. It should be more difficult to hit vital places on a rider unless you're half-giant sized or have some type of pole weapon.

3. It should be easier to steal kanks from a rider (unhitching kanks, mounting kanks that aren't currently mounted) - though it was abused in the past - I guess...which lead to the current state of affairs.

4. I would like to see the need to maintain the kank via special food or grooming - like an armor brush for a kank maybe.  Something that would be consumable that the PC would have to buy and use on the kank.  This would add a bit more to the economy and make sure that the only folks that have kanks are the ones that can really afford to take care of them.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't think kanks are unbalanced:
1. They cost a good amount of coin.
2. Most folks can only use one, securely, at a time.
3. Loose yours in the desert and you've got a LONG walk.
4. It's easy to be dismounted
5. It's dangerous to be dismounted accidently.
6. Mounted combat is broken
7. Limited kank accessible shelters in some places - so it goes.

4. I would like to see the need to maintain the kank via special food or grooming - like an armor brush for a kank maybe.  Something that would be consumable that the PC would have to buy and use on the kank.  This would add a bit more to the economy and make sure that the only folks that have kanks are the ones that can really afford to take care of them.

1. So do most other mounts.
2. Applies to other mounts.
3. Applies to other mounts.
4. Applies to other mounts.
5. Applies to other mounts.
6. Handicaps other mounts more harshly than kanks.
7. Anything a kank can't enter an erdlu can't enter.

4. Implementing that would not only be weird, since your grooming a giant ant-like beast with chitin, but you aren't grooming the Erdlu, or the lizard, or the inix.


Here is why a kank is unbalanced in my opinion.
1. Can run a lot longer than an erdlu/lizard can.
2. Can carry a shit load more and still run farther.
3. It's easier to kill erdlus and lizards.
4. Most of my -human- Pcs that I've had can't mount lizards, or erdlus.
5. Pull reigns is turned off, so there is really no added benefit to riding any other mount into combat. (with the exception of a couple)
6. Costs the same amount to stable them as any other mount. (Should cost more for an inix, IMO)

[moab]

The changes I suggested for kanks very well apply to the other mounts as well.

The question becomes - then why choose the other mounts - maybe there is no need for other mounts.

It's not that kanks are unbalancing - its that the others are rather useless (except a sunback in a fight, I guess).

As a side note - all of my humans have been able to ride everything except erdlus.

[Armaddict]

t's not that kanks are unbalancing - its that the others are rather useless (except a sunback in a fight, I guess).

I think it is that kanks are unbalancing.

The other ones are only useless because kanks are so vastly superior, in every way.

[moab]

Welp, yer wrong.  

[Sokotra]

t's not that kanks are unbalancing - its that the others are rather useless (except a sunback in a fight, I guess).

I agree.. the others seem pretty useless.  An erdlu should be able to support the weight of an average human and a little bit of gear.  I don't think it works that way.  And I haven't seen a sunback in a fight.. in too lon gto remember...but I'm rather dubious.

[Maybe42or54]

Both of them are pretty right.

Kanks are way too good. And Lizards and Erdlus are just way too.. not good.

Inix are alright. They are massive and they eat a shit load.

War beetles are ok. And it makes me feel like Red Storm is a Spartan equivalent.

[Sokotra]

Both of them are pretty right.

Kanks are way too good. And Lizards and Erdlus are just way too.. not good.

Inix are alright. They are massive and they eat a shit load.

War beetles are ok. And it makes me feel like Red Storm is a Spartan equivalent.

Well, my point was that the other mounts seem pretty useless in comparison to kanks which are actually worth the 'sid.  This doesn't mean we should make kanks useless as well.  The other mounts should be made more useful, unless that's just how things are meant to be.  *shrug*

Something just isn't right when you can walk faster than a sunback can run.  Ugh.

[Larrath]

Both of them are pretty right.

Kanks are way too good. And Lizards and Erdlus are just way too.. not good.

Inix are alright. They are massive and they eat a shit load.

War beetles are ok. And it makes me feel like Red Storm is a Spartan equivalent.

Well, my point was that the other mounts seem pretty useless in comparison to kanks which are actually worth the 'sid.  This doesn't mean we should make kanks useless as well.  The other mounts should be made more useful, unless that's just how things are meant to be.  *shrug*

If we had steel longswords for sale in the Salarri shops, priced at under 200 'sids a piece, you could say the same thing.  Being worth the expense means that the benefit you gain is proportional to what you trade away in order to gain it.
The reason why every other mount is useless is that kanks, with their superior stats, are as available (if not more) as any other mounts and cost about the same.  Therefore, they set the standard...and when the standard is set so that one mount is ahead of all of the others in all fields, it is not balanced.

Don't compare kanks to desert elves' ability to run.  Desert elves are a race, restricted by karma, prejudice and various other things.  Kanks are mobs that you can buy.

When given a choice between a kank, an erdlu and an inix, I'd be surprised if more than one in fifty riding, non-halfgiant characters did not pick the kank.

Erdlu aren't useless, erdlu are what they are.  They're only useless because you compare them to a perhaps unrealistically superior alternative.


In closing, I'm not -that- concerned whether or not kanks are changed, but I'd like to point out that saying "this isn't overpowered, everything else just sucks in comparison" is a very, very silly thing to say.

[Agent_137]

It's not that kanks are unbalancing - its that the others are rather useless (except a sunback in a fight, I guess).

Yea, that means they're unbalanced. I don't know how else to defined "not balanced" other than saying "Only one of a given set is useful, the rest suck."

Now, if you want to nerf kanks, or buff the other mounts, Id on't care. but i'd like to see other mounts actually used. I proposed awhile ago that each mount have somethign it's good at, either affordability, speed, combat, carrying capacity, or whatever. Maybe even have one that's good at two of those but horrible at something else. (like affordability)

[Sokotra]

Erdlu aren't useless, erdlu are what they are.  They're only useless because you compare them to a perhaps unrealistically superior alternative.


In closing, I'm not -that- concerned whether or not kanks are changed, but I'd like to point out that saying "this isn't overpowered, everything else just sucks in comparison" is a very, very silly thing to say.

I don't think it's really as silly as you think, heh.  It is a perfectly logical reason for something to seem overpowered when you compare it to something that is vastly inferior.  The question is; is that the case in this situation?  To some degree, I think so.  It's useless to sit and argue one way or the other when it is usually possible that there is some grey area inbetween.  

Right, erdlu are not completely useless, but they do seem 'under-powered' even if you don't compare them to kanks.  It is obvious that some of the other mounts are messed up when you can walk faster than a sunback can run.  Seriously now... I think things like this need to be taken into consideration.   I can't see the code so I don't know how it all fits together, but in my humble opinion I think kanks are fine and the other mounts are "buggy", heh.

Now, how this comes into play with the topic that was originally brought up is that some people seem to think the world is too small or the time it takes to get to one place to another is too short.  I think the playability 'excuse' comes into play here... and actually makes sense.  Also, I've always seen the world as realistically small in a sense that it is just how things are in this particular part of the known world.  Other than that, I think a little RP'd rest stops and that sorta thing pretty much remedy the whole problem.  

And again, just because kanks can move up and down the roads with ease does not mean that they are too powerful.  I've lost so many kanks it is ridiculous.  You take them off the roads and they can poop out like a gremlin running on fumes and four bad tires.  Kanks have many weaknesses, as I suppose is the case with the other mounts, except that the other mounts don't have strengths to successfully match their weaknesses.  This is where the problem lies, to the best of my knowledge.

[moab]

I don't see a problem that isn't a general mount problem.

We already know the game isn't about balance.  This has been discussed in many threads.

So balance is not a real issue here.

If you like kanks, great.  If you don't like them, great.  Some people use other mounts for whatever reason.

If you think kanks are used to much - make a leader character who orders his units to not use kanks for a legit reason.  I actually did that once.

Or make a character that uses a mount of another kind for some other reason.  What's the big deal.

The problem really is that you, the player, are busy focused on bringing your character the biggest coded benefit.

Maybe kanks are faster, stronger - but maybe your character get wierded out by riding on the back of a big-@ss tick?

General Mount Problems are those I listed earlier - about the difficult level of stealing a mount, it's packs or mounting something someone has the reins too.

[Armaddict]

I'm of the opinion that kanks definitely could use at least a small reduction in stamina or speed.  If they're known for stamina, make them a lot slower, so that other mounts have the advantage of being able to catch up to them if they're close enough.

Correct, the game is not about balance.  But I think the -huge- difference in superiority as a mount is somewhat strange.  Why do we even -have- other mounts?  Why would they be bothered with when kanks are so easily superior?  Why can kanks so easily go across the entirety of the known world?

I think making it so that a mount can't go nearly that far would help enrich the desert rp as well.  Make it necessary to camp out sometimes, instead of travel all night because your mount can handle it.

Kanks have a monopoly on the mount trade for a reason, which is their benefits easily downplay the benefits of any other mount.  The problem is...I think it may be a remnant from older days that needs to be fixed.  People oftimes talk about how it's not good that the danger of the desert is from raiders and beasts, rather than the harsh environment.  Couldn't that possibly be because they don't often have to endure that environment due to the fact that they rarely have to -stop- in it?  The freedom to pass right through it easily is too easy to come by.

[Rindan]

In my opinion, a kank is a pack animal.  It is not a great war beast, it isn't terribly fast, it can't even carry that heavy of a load.  What a kank does well is walk a long distance.  I would could stomach a kank's super stamina if its movement delays were greatly increased.  An elf should be able to out jog a kank with no problem.  A kank rider should be an easy target to catch up to for an elf or a raider on a faster beast.

All animals are roughly equal in price.  I would like it if the reason why they were equal in price was obvious.  War beetles should be fairly steady fighting platforms and moderately quick.  Erdlu should be so damn quick that their utility should be obvious.  Maybe make sun backs the middle of the road beast that combines a relatively stable fighting platform with speed and moderate endurance.  Inix... well, those carry half-giants and everything else.

As it stands, a kank is superior in every regards, or at the very least comparable.  Kanks should have a personality beyond "does everything".  Kanks should be slow pack beasts good for long distant hauls and people who need a mount that goes forever.

[Angela Christine]

I think it would be great if "pull reins" was fixed and brought back, that little bit of help from certain mounts gave an excuse to use them.  As it is now the combat abilities of the mount only seem to come into play if someone attacks the mount, which is rare.  The Charge command is nice, but that depends on the rider's skill, and the mount's size.  A docile but huge animal will be better for trampling than a fierce but small animal, erdlus are mean little buggers but they are not built for trampling.  Give people reasons to use mounts that need to rest occasionally.  


Angela Christine

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I see kanks as pack animals too. They are more common in the south and less common in the north. Since lizards are more easily available in the north, they are more common there. Combat is easier dismounted than mounted, so unless I'm in some military organization that wants everyone on fighting type mounts, I will preferably choose something that's hardy with stamina. Erdlus are just plain lousy, low stamina, aren't good at carrying loads, sure they can peck and bite, but I doubt they can trouble skilled fighters anyway. So it's either kank or inix depending on where you are that are the

common

mounts about. I can use a beetle too, but it seems weird since a kank is much smaller and suited to common needs, plus it goes into my pocket stable.

If I'm travelling from allanak to tuluk, I might stop over in the middle at the outpost. Then again, I might not, travel times is not that much of an issue anyway. It's the way the world is built, space and distance doesn't really equate to time IG, even if it is so.

[Armaddict]

Sewer Rat said:  Since lizards are more easily available in the north, they are more common there.

I was completely unaware that there was anything more common than kanks in the north, either.  In all my play time there, kanks were still far more prevalent, with a few here and there selecting inixes just because they're half-giants or they think riding around on something huge and lumbering is cool for their character.

Like I said before, I think that kanks could be -the- reason that travel between cities is 'too easy'.  The reason that it takes no real rest stops on the way while they easily go from place to place.  The reason people never camp in the desert, since they can ride their kank all day off the road and still just turn around and ride back once it's late afternoon.  Generally, they'll get back in time without having to worry about their mount's stamina, so it's pretty uncommon for people to camp or become stranded.  Raiding scenes can't go down as well, even out in the middle of nowhere, because they run, and there's no chance they won't get back if they get a head start.  Kanks are fast, and they -will- maintain their movement to get to a 'place of safety', wherever that may be.

They're cheap.  They're -extremely- easy to find and pay for.  They are vastly superior to all other mounts.  They make travel too easy and relatively safe.  The more I read into this thread, the more I think it's a good idea to kind of put the -mounts- into perspective on how we want travel on Zalanthas to be like, rather than finding a coded system for the players to follow.  Simply put...the distance between Allanak and Tuluk isn't a distance at all to a kank, and that means that the 'reality' within the game that we all want is being skewwed.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I was completely unaware that there was anything more common than kanks in the north, either. In all my play time there, kanks were still far more prevalent, with a few here and there selecting inixes just because they're half-giants or they think riding around on something huge and lumbering is cool for their character.

If you meant, by pc population alone, I see most of them riding kanks too. Simply because kanks probably have the highest stamina and value for money. I see downtuning kanks as something that will hinder hunters more. But I was going by vnpc wise as well.

Never knew inixes are meant for half-giants, always thought they are counterparts of kanks, only longer.

Are kanks sold in Tuluk stables? I did not find any there, that's why I assume inixes are more common [vnpc wise] and why they are the counterpart of kanks in the north as there are more inixes/lizards sold there.

Assuming, I am right that there are no kanks sold in tuluki stables. How do tuluk pcs get their kanks? Through getting others to buy, trekking southwards to buy, getting a ride on a caravan to buy, buying from southerners who makes trips northward to sell mounts.