luir's

[Dakurus]

Oddly enough, since I do try and pay attention to some of the general happenings around luirs:

1. I haven't noticed much, if any resting of kanks outside. People rent kanks because it's IC to do so, it quickly regens their mounts, and it keeps them from getting stolen.
2. There have been times when the gates to luirs in the past were closed, and were open. The current set up isn't very straightforward on this issue, but as in the past it's something that can and will change depending on the situation. Tuluk, RedStorm, Allanak all have gate closures, depending on time and other events. Is there a complaint there? In two of those cases, you are locked out, just picking your nose.
3. It seems to me folks are just passing on luirs these days. The distance is the same, the trade is still potentially there, but it's used less as a destination point, and like  Red storm, I feel this is more because of a lack of interaction while there. Or, actually I can think of a few other reasons people may be avoiding the outpost, though it's likely different for different folks.

I've watched folks trade, and it's often the ride in, rest, enter tent, sell, leave tent, mount, move to next merchant. If you're that kind of trader you're going to do in the outer bailey as well.

If you want a place to hang out and shoot the shit, tarkon's is the same as it's always been, you just have the strain of pressing the directional keys a few more times. If you really can't find it in your fingers to do that, well, how much did you really want to sit around and shoot the shit?

The extra rooms are most annoying for the folks that hunted all day, wanted to ride three rooms into the outpost, sit for the two night hours, at dawn, walk one room, get their mount, and be back hunting in under 30 seconds.

I had nothing to do with the new layout of Luirs, but it's not like you have a choice between the Gaj or the barrel. You either rest at the only post midway between the great city-states, or you hot tail it between them if it's IC for you to do so. You decide.

Dakurus

[Angela Christine]

They could also eventually develop something like a postern gate near the old gates, particulary the north gate, which certain Kuraci used quite a bit.  A gate that is only large enough to admit people single file, and not big enough to admit wagons or siege engines at all.  It might or might not be big enough for mounts or half-giants.

If they were still feeling paranoid, they could rig up a platform full of rocks over the little gates.  In that in the event of an attack the load could be dropped to quickly (some sort of leaver or pully that would take a couple stout men or a half-giant to move) and seal the little gates completely.


The way things are now isn't the way things have to be forever.


Angela Christine

[House Rising Sun]

I disliked New Luir's from the moment it was reopened, and after going in numerous times, I like it even less.

In old Luir's, the apparent lack of protection was one of the appealing characteristics of the outpost. There were plenty of guards around, sure, but you got the impression that, with so much through traffic, anything could happen at any time. Additionally, that through traffic was incredible; every person travelling the road went right past the tavern and the stables, which were directly connected. It took you all of five seconds to see if anybody was hanging around, and if there were, it took all of five seconds more to rent your ride and head in for a drink. That's what we call foot traffic. A bar has a hard time thriving without it.

In new Luir's, it's around a dozen rooms to go from one gate to the other, and just as many to go from one gate to the stables and then to the tavern. Sure, that may only amount to a few minutes of typing on our part, but realistically that's the difference between a traveler stopping when they don't have to just for the hell of it, and a traveler not even bothering to see if it's worthwhile, and just passing on by along with their 'sid.

Let's keep in mind that this place is a trade outpost before a fortress. It took advantage of its naturally defensible position in the past, which seemed to do it just fine. Now, after morphing into some kind of pain-in-the-ass fortified beast, is the lower (non-kurac) pc traffic reflecting in Kurac's IC pocketbook? We are at least partially representative of vnpc trends.

[Dakurus]

Now, the above statement is true.
People can no longer do a ride by to see if there are interesting people to talk to, or if their latest target is there. They have to actually check.

As to the pockets of kurac, you'd be surprised at the amount of trade that still goes on in luirs. The market isn't seeing a real drop in traffic, though admittedly poor Tarkon sure seems to.  Luirs still thrives on lots of tribal, nomad, and DE business. Course then again there's been an increase in spice trade with that wonderful spice den.

It's not that people don't come into Luirs. It's that people don't hang around in Luirs.

Which I partially attribute to the more militaristic nature layout.

Dakurus

[proxie]

The thing here is, Luirs/Kurac did this as a response to being overrun multiple times. The IC quote I heard was "I'll be damned if they take my outpost again."

And so yes, Luirs has been remade with security more in mind. From an IC standpoint, it's still rather new. Changes still made, the various occupations and battles to reclaim it still fresh in people's minds. In order for Luirs to remain this neutral, free for all trade place, it has to be safe for all parties. There can't be the impending threat that Allanak will tromp through again, thus keeping Tulukis wary and vice versa. If Tuluk can just waltz south to give Nak some of their comeuppance, then the Allanakis will stay away too.

I think, in a few years, perhaps 5, perhaps 2, perhaps 10, as the proverbial guard changes and people's memories start to fade, security will slacken and changes will be made to encourage trade over repelling potential invaders. Until they get another slap in the face to kick them back into gear and make sure they close the appropriate gates all night every night.

It's not that much different than people walking around Allanak to avoid paying water tax. Inconvenience yes, but for those that it's an IC point to either pay it or not, they do what is appropriate for their PC. For those PC's who don't think it's worthwhile to brave Luirs' dangers, then fine. No amount of rooms should change that. If your PC would go into Luirs, then quit fussing about the extra rooms, how hard it is to find, yadda yadda, and go.

Also, outpost. No city to draw unlimited troops from, so if there's an attack, they're stuck using terrain and the outpost's design. Until the cavalry can get there and if I was invading, that'd be the first thing I'd cut off.

Proxie

[Spiced Kank]

realistically that's the difference between a traveler stopping when they don't have to just for the hell of it, and a traveler not even bothering to see if it's worthwhile, and just passing on by along with their 'sid.

I differ.  

Realistically, a traveller coming to trade in Luir's Outpost would stop by the tavern to have a drink if he felt like it, or move on if he didn't.  The lack - or abundance - of PCs wouldn't make a difference at all.  Maybe you ought to re-examine your thinking.  Travelling the "extra difference" shouldn't matter much, either, since realistically a trader would most likely want to stable his kank so that it didn't get stolen.  From there, it's a simple process to check the tavern while you're trading, so that even if you would realistically stop by, you can avoid it if there are no PCs warming up a coded barstool.

Many of those coming to trade would find Tarkon's a convenient stop, since it's right across from the market yard.  If they didn't stop by for the drink and some relaxation after a hard day, they might still come by to buy their spice - and there are plenty of spots to relax and smoke it up right in the tavern.  OOCly, players don't do this because there's no one to do it with, and end up perpetuating a needless cycle.  As a side note, there have been a kabajillion Kuraci in Luirs in the not-so-distant past, and if they sat their asses in the tavern more instead of hiding out in the barracks, this "lack of PCs" problem might just take care of itself.

[House Rising Sun]

The emphasis on realistically really drives the point home, there.

You're right throughout, but you missed what I'm saying. The pc population was another point, you see; whether or not to stop in relates to the hassle of entering a bloody fortress and walking halfway across it, as compared to already being inside the area and being forced to pass all the activity. Due to the layout, somebody travelling from one side of the world to the other now has to go pretty far out of his way to stop for a smoke and a drink when he doesn't absolutely need to rest. You picked up the road, a major source of business, and dropped it back down about as far from the community 'center' as possible.

I'll admit there does seem to be more to it all, such as area tribals that already go to the outpost specifically for trade, rather than passing through to travel, and the spice den transplant. I just think that even those parts of the outpost are going to take a hit from the road being removed from its old path directly through the 'commercial zone'.

I guess I'll be a naysayer until I see those crews finally disappear, so I'll save final judgement until all the facts are in.

[Rindan]

First, I have actually not seen new Luir's.  I have been a complete and utter Allanaki and Red Storm hermit for a long time.  That said, I personally think that if there are OOC playability issues conflicting with IC rational, they should be worked around.  The game is at its best when there is interaction.  Realism is nice, but I am more then happy to throw realism to the wind in exchange for playability in many cases.  It doesn't bother me that characters can stay awake for days on end and don't need to piss ever couple of hours.

The solution IC solution to a slightly IC and very much OOC problem might be as simple as blasting a new gate and winching a small mount over that gate's entrance.  Effectively, you could create a drop in wall.  Granted, you wouldn't want to shut that gate that way unless you absolutely had to, but if Allanak or Tuluk was pounding on the gates, you wouldn't think twice.  You could even throw a normal gate on it so that you can close up at night if you really want to.  A normal gate on top of a drop in wall makes for a pretty formidable defense.  Hell, throw in some other defense and make that the least desirable way to attack.  

Playability and realism doesn't need to rule the game, but it doesn't hurt to keep it in mind.  Bending and rationalizing some IC action to fix an OOC problem isn't a great sin in my opinion.

[Twilight]

Spiced Kank wrote:

Realistically, a traveller coming to trade in Luir's Outpost

That is fine if you are coming to trade.  Lots of times, I've been playing a traveller passing through, no intention to trade.  Under the old setup, I might still stick around Luirs for a bit, especially if I saw things were hopping.  Now, there is significantly less likelihood of that.

[Agent_137]

I think buzzing from 'nak to tuluk in half a IG day is crap unless you're roleplaying hauling ass and burning out your mounts, leaving them on the side of the road dead.

But that's just me. I'll always be stopping around luirs, so it's sensible for me to go in, regardless of having to scoot around the gates.


p.s.
horses walk at about 4 miles an hour.  (i'm assuming a kank would walk around the same pace)
that's one mile in 15 minutes.
One way to imagine the RL equivalent would be to take our half of daylight, 6 hours, 360 minutes, 24 blocks of 15 minutes, therefore I imagine the towns being only 24 miles apart if it's normal to walk your kank there in half of daylight. If you take hours more literally and say "three IG hours" to get to the other town, then it's only 12 miles! I could hike that EASILY in one day. Too close.

Anyway, we'll stick with the 6 hour RL approximation, then. So in 24 miles, you have an entirely different culture and environment. Hrm. Doesn't sit right with me.

Also consider the outdoor rooms are popularly represented as "leagues." A league is 3 and a half fucking miles. I don't know how many rooms are between 'nak and tuluk, but there's surely more than EIGHT! (3*8=24)

So, therefore, going from 'nak to tuluk in half a day is ludicrous. slow the hell down or roleplay galloping down the road. And if you slow down, stop in the comfort and safety of Luirs.

p.p.s
I am NOT an advocate of increasing the distance between tuluk and 'nak. Not only is it impossible, but it's not the easiest way to fix the twinkage. There are two easier ways:
Increase lagtime for moving in outdoor rooms or create greater awareness and let the players choose to roleplay well and show newbies and twinks ICly the proper way.
"you got here in half a day? Krath! How man kanks did you leave dead on the side of the road?"
"You didn't leave any kanks? OMG MAGICKER!"


respond to the derailment here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15447

[Angela Christine]

Comfort and safety of Luir's?  Meh, it is only going to feel safe if you trust Kurac, and who really trusts Kurac?    The mini-maze around the town doesn't just make it harder for invaders to get in, it makes it harder for visitors to get out if the Kuraci get nasty.  The only advantage is the stable feeding your mount for you, but if you a little further down the road you can find several nice spots protected on two or three sides that have suitable forage for most mounts.

Ok, the current set-up is only a minor inconvenience, but minor inconveniences change the game.  The "pull quiver" command makes it slightly easier to use a longbow or short-bow than to use a cross-bow or sling.  Most client programs will easily allow you to set up a macro that will allow you to remove, load and re-hold the bow in just a keystroke or two, so it shouldn't be a major hassle.  But bows are much more commonly used than slings and crossbows.  Both short-bows and slings are usually fairly short range weapons, but slings are much less expensive and the ammunition can be had cheaply or even for free if you have more time than money which should make them a perfect weapon for poor commoners (particularly in the south) but I see short-bows used much more often than slings.  Cross-bows come in a variety of ranges, like longbows, and the cost is usually similar, but I see waaay more longbows than crossbows.  I assume that this is because the "pull quiver" command makes longbows and short-bows slightly more easy to use than slings and crossbows.  A minor inconvenience that changes IC behavior.   I'm sure most PCs have a good reason why they use the weapons the use, but if they were equally convenient more PC might have found reasons to use the other weapons.

If people find a place inconvenient then they are less likely to find reasons for their characters to be there.  You don't see many non-rangers around Red Storm anymore, the non-rangers find reasons not to be there or people that want to play there find reasons to make their characters rangers.  Likewise if the current set up in Luirs is slightly off-putting, then people may find reasons for their characters to spend time in other places instead.

Angela Christine

[Ritley(to lazy to sign on]

Comfort and safety of Luir's?  Meh, it is only going to feel safe if you trust Kurac, and who really trusts Kurac?    The mini-maze around the town doesn't just make it harder for invaders to get in, it makes it harder for visitors to get out if the Kuraci get nasty.  The only advantage is the stable feeding your mount for you, but if you a little further down the road you can find several nice spots protected on two or three sides that have suitable forage for most mounts.

Ok, the current set-up is only a minor inconvenience, but minor inconveniences change the game.  The "pull quiver" command makes it slightly easier to use a longbow or short-bow than to use a cross-bow or sling.  Most client programs will easily allow you to set up a macro that will allow you to remove, load and re-hold the bow in just a keystroke or two, so it shouldn't be a major hassle.  But bows are much more commonly used than slings and crossbows.  Both short-bows and slings are usually fairly short range weapons, but slings are much less expensive and the ammunition can be had cheaply or even for free if you have more time than money which should make them a perfect weapon for poor commoners (particularly in the south) but I see short-bows used much more often than slings.  Cross-bows come in a variety of ranges, like longbows, and the cost is usually similar, but I see waaay more longbows than crossbows.  I assume that this is because the "pull quiver" command makes longbows and short-bows slightly more easy to use than slings and crossbows.  A minor inconvenience that changes IC behavior.   I'm sure most PCs have a good reason why they use the weapons the use, but if they were equally convenient more PC might have found reasons to use the other weapons.

If people find a place inconvenient then they are less likely to find reasons for their characters to be there.  You don't see many non-rangers around Red Storm anymore, the non-rangers find reasons not to be there or people that want to play there find reasons to make their characters rangers.  Likewise if the current set up in Luirs is slightly off-putting, then people may find reasons for their characters to spend time in other places instead.

Angela Christine

Nah, it's not the reason. I would favor a bow over a crossbow simply because it's more my (or my characters) style. Besides that, crossbows are poor for hunting, everyone knows that, so are slings, unless your hunting small little Jozhals. Even still, it would be unwise to use a sling just in case you met up with a dangerous creature by mistake.