luir's

[Manhattan]

how come there is only one gate into luir's and that is the western gate? it used to be that luir's had three entrances. now it's so inconvenient.

[Irulan]

The easy response to this is "Find out IC"....

But, lets just think about it for a few moments. What recently happened to Luirs? Attacked and overrun by mantis. Who runs Luirs? Kuracis and all their interests. Which is the easiest to defend against, three entrances or one? With the Kuracis being most interested in preserving trade, and recently having been attacked and losing their city for several years, I think a reasonable answer would be that when rebuilding, they would do everything in their power to fortify their city against future attacks.

Or....Find out IC. ;-)

-Irulan

[Adhira]

An OOC inconvenience will most often have IC reasoning behind it. As Irulan said, it's pretty easy to have your question answered in game.

[Angela Christine]

It is annoying as hell, isn't it?  I assume it was done for IC defensive reasons.

You've read the history page, right?  Stupid outpost got taken over by stupid bugs and things.  Previously it had sort of been taken over by 'Nak.  And of course the Kuraci themselves took it over from someone else, they didn't build it.  While Luir was gone, the place probably wasn't completely empty when the Kuraci came, there might have been some . . . vigorous discussion about who would get the place.  To me all this suggests that the place had some defense problems.

So now instead of the civilian merchants getting the more secure inner courtyard they have been turfed to the outer courtyard, and the Kuraci have locked off access to the inner courtyard for their own exclusive use.  The also built some walls and things so that you have to go through two gates to get into the main part of the outpost, first the north or south gate and through a defensable channel to the western gate to actually get into a useful part of the outpost.  Now you can't just bash in one gate and roll right into the center of town.

Still, it is annoying.


Angela Christine

[HunterKiller]

The new Luir's kicks ass.

- HK

[Cale_Knight]

Tektolnes kept ordering like 20 pizzas for Luirs outpost on Monday nights and the Kuracis got tired of having to pay for them, so they built the walls to keep out the delivery guy.

[adrien]

The new Luir's kicks ass.

- HK

I hate the place I never want to go  back.

[Tamarin]

Ya luirs sucks now that you have to spend an extra 10 seconds riding around the outer wall.  What a BITCH!!!

[Halaster]

I have noticed a significant decline in people visiting Luir's ever since the change.  It is enough of an inconvenience that people simply don't go there any more.

[Tamarin]

I think it might be that newer players actually think that the gates are closed, so they just don't come back.  Is there maybe some way to indicate that there is in fact an opening?

[adrien]

I always hated luirs anyways. dam Kuracis stoners!!!!

[Cogato (Didnt log in)]

Just search around, it isnt that much of an inconvenience, you have to go a maximum of 8 or 9 more squares...whipdeedoo. Imagine what it would have been like if noone wanted to walk from Meleths Circle in the beginning the whole 8 squares to the Gaj...we would have no players...its not an inconvenience, its just different. *shrugs*

[lukie]

It actually took me about 5 characters (2 in the northlands so really it's just 3) before I figured out that the Gaj even existed.

[amoeba]

I have noticed a significant decline in people visiting Luir's ever since the change.  It is enough of an inconvenience that people simply don't go there any more.

I don't think it is so much of an inconvience as it changed the dynamics of how people interact with the place I suspect. Usually Luirs is used as a rest stop halfway between the two major cities. It is awkward resting mounts in the middle of the street, but the way it is now, I suspect there is a lot of mount resting going on outside of the city proper.   Think about it,  it's safe from the desert dangers, and doesn't cost, as well as being less stigmatising then resting the kank in front of the tavern.

The other factor is the gates closing at night, I'm sure that discourages people from entering the city on some occasions.  

The place reminds me of a car dealership near here. There is no parking at the place, they only valet park.  The attempt is to control the customer and force a sale.  Entering Luirs, proper feels like you are entering a very tightly controlled enclave, rather than finding a public freewheeeling bar to have a good time.

In all I like the layout, but I think some tweaks and/or incentives to come through would be useful.  One don't allow "kank resting" at all in the outer section, reduced prices on renting a kank inside would draw more people to the tavern.   There are other ideas, but I am too tired to state them coherently.  I think it is an interesting study in social engineering, any sociologists amoung us?

[JohnGalt]

In short, the place was constructed to be a great layout for major battles, with properly spaced walls and gates.  While the layout is fantastic if a big battle ever occurs, it is annoying in the meanwhile.  Solution?  Add interesting content to the space between the outer and inner walls.  Some tribal tent, a roudy makeshift pub, less reputable merchants, ectera.

[Morrolan]

Solution?  Add interesting content to the space between the outer and inner walls.  Some tribal tent, a roudy makeshift pub, less reputable merchants, ectera.

This, and a place outside to rest/rent your kanks would be awesome.  There is a place to rest, but kanks can't enter b/c it's too small.

I think a few vendors would make it a different place.  Is that area really so tightly controlled that it couldn't happen?  Maybe even a water-seller like the "extra" one in Allanak?

Still, a few places like the Kuraci desert outpost from when Luirs was overrun would be cool.  I know most/all of those merchants were moved inside the walls of Luirs, but something like that would be cool.

Morrolan

EDIT to add:

Remember the tent-tavern at Tan'sarak?  I would love to see that outside the walls, but inside the outer walls.  A great place for a rowdy gathering.

[Dalmeth]

Well, the thing that got me about Luir's outer wall was that I had no idea that any old stranger was allowed to open the gates to get into the inner area.  So my character just sat outside those gates, wondering if the guards would kill him if he opened them.

[LoD]

Luir's was a great example of "less is more" with regards to its previous design in my mind.

I don't have access to all of its new layout, and I'm sure there are vast logical improvements, however, the fact that it's quite confusing and unfriendly to common travel is going to deter people from using it.  The old design was -very- friendly to the common traveller and had a great feel of an old outpost surviving in the midst of constant danger.

You were able to ride through the gate and in just a couple movements, stable your mount and be at the tavern to hear gossip, news, get a drink, relax, quit out, etc...and just as easy to depart again.  Change is always a challenge for people because humans are creatures of habit, but I'd still be a fan of a more user-friendly, but equally defensive layout.

-LoD

[Manhattan]

omg the new layout is like...ANTI user friendly.  :x

[marko]

Alternatively - this may not be so much an OOC issue as an IC response to a highly defended and controled enclave.

For example, tribals used to visit Luir's a lot and make their way into the market area.  Now, with all the extra defenses, gates, etc etc - I would guess that many tribals would ICly not wish to enter the outpost.  It's too dangerous - especially with Kurac's reputation (both IC and OOC).

I'd also guess that many caravans would be by-passing the outpost now as well due to the inconviences of the wagon yard and fortitifications.  

My guess is that it is a combination of the OOC annoyance of the extra rooms to travel (much like how Tuluk was shunned when it first popped back up - there were too many rooms to walk) and the IC result of such obvious fortifications and the shutting out of the outside world.

[moab]

I believe there is plans (and things) in the works for content between the inner and outer walls of Luir's.

All you have to do is look at the project blog.

Having recently traded emails with Mekeda, it's still a project in the works.

Further, the new Luir's rocks.  People don't visit it because they're the wussy type that can't just wander through the courtyard.

It could be much worse.

It could be like Tuluk.  *shiver*

[HunterKiller]

I care dick about the gates.  Check the place out if you haven't already, give yourself a chance to like or dislike it.

I did like the old Luir's though - I miss my little shit hole.  :twisted:

- HK

[flurry]

Yeah it's a little inconvenient, but that would be kind of sad if that's actually discouraging people from entering Luir's.

No wonder so much of the known world is unexplored!   You have a move a few rooms to get to some of the good stuff.  :wink:

Maybe it does lack some of the charm of the old Luir's, but it has its own charm.  Like a good spiced wine, it will only improve with age, I think.

[Spiced Kank]

I have noticed a significant decline in people visiting Luir's ever since the change. It is enough of an inconvenience that people simply don't go there any more.

I have noticed this as well. I think that it is mostly a growing pain.

The Outpost is still being re-built, both in-game and out of game, after being over-run and devastated.  There is much to come that will be added to the Outpost, but naturally, it will take time.  There are also certain steps that could and hopefully will be taken to make it less annoying from an OOC perspective, which I've been in communication with the Kuraci Immortals about.

That said, from an IC standpoint it is arguable that the Outpost is not only laid out in a more coherent and efficient fashion, it is far more secure and devastatingly defendable.  The "outer yard" is just as safe now, if not more, than the "inner yard" ever was before the Outpost was rebuilt.  The changes, when seen from an overall perspective, make a lot of sense.

The problem is only that it isn't finished yet.  

Luir's is certainly suffering from growing pains, but I do not think that they will be permanent, nor do I think that they are being felt too badly from an IC perspective. I don't think tribals would feel unwelcome at all.  In fact, with my point above about it being an even safer place to trade, business is probably doing just fine on that front.  The only point I can see in favor of them (and many other passers-through) feeling unwelcome is the fact that the inner gates close at dusk, which is one point that has been in discussion via email with the Kurac Immortals.

Solution? Add interesting content to the space between the outer and inner walls.

This is already underway, and has been for some time.  I agree that the Outer Bailey should be less of a 'dead spot'.  ICly, it's full of shoddy hawkers, makeshift shacks, tarps, tents, and so on, but OOCly, all of that still need to be written and built.  It will come.

Growing pains, that's all.

[Cale_Knight]

I believe there's actually a single coded shop in the Outer Bailey area.

[Dakurus]

Oddly enough, since I do try and pay attention to some of the general happenings around luirs:

1. I haven't noticed much, if any resting of kanks outside. People rent kanks because it's IC to do so, it quickly regens their mounts, and it keeps them from getting stolen.
2. There have been times when the gates to luirs in the past were closed, and were open. The current set up isn't very straightforward on this issue, but as in the past it's something that can and will change depending on the situation. Tuluk, RedStorm, Allanak all have gate closures, depending on time and other events. Is there a complaint there? In two of those cases, you are locked out, just picking your nose.
3. It seems to me folks are just passing on luirs these days. The distance is the same, the trade is still potentially there, but it's used less as a destination point, and like  Red storm, I feel this is more because of a lack of interaction while there. Or, actually I can think of a few other reasons people may be avoiding the outpost, though it's likely different for different folks.

I've watched folks trade, and it's often the ride in, rest, enter tent, sell, leave tent, mount, move to next merchant. If you're that kind of trader you're going to do in the outer bailey as well.

If you want a place to hang out and shoot the shit, tarkon's is the same as it's always been, you just have the strain of pressing the directional keys a few more times. If you really can't find it in your fingers to do that, well, how much did you really want to sit around and shoot the shit?

The extra rooms are most annoying for the folks that hunted all day, wanted to ride three rooms into the outpost, sit for the two night hours, at dawn, walk one room, get their mount, and be back hunting in under 30 seconds.

I had nothing to do with the new layout of Luirs, but it's not like you have a choice between the Gaj or the barrel. You either rest at the only post midway between the great city-states, or you hot tail it between them if it's IC for you to do so. You decide.

Dakurus

[Angela Christine]

They could also eventually develop something like a postern gate near the old gates, particulary the north gate, which certain Kuraci used quite a bit.  A gate that is only large enough to admit people single file, and not big enough to admit wagons or siege engines at all.  It might or might not be big enough for mounts or half-giants.

If they were still feeling paranoid, they could rig up a platform full of rocks over the little gates.  In that in the event of an attack the load could be dropped to quickly (some sort of leaver or pully that would take a couple stout men or a half-giant to move) and seal the little gates completely.


The way things are now isn't the way things have to be forever.


Angela Christine

[House Rising Sun]

I disliked New Luir's from the moment it was reopened, and after going in numerous times, I like it even less.

In old Luir's, the apparent lack of protection was one of the appealing characteristics of the outpost. There were plenty of guards around, sure, but you got the impression that, with so much through traffic, anything could happen at any time. Additionally, that through traffic was incredible; every person travelling the road went right past the tavern and the stables, which were directly connected. It took you all of five seconds to see if anybody was hanging around, and if there were, it took all of five seconds more to rent your ride and head in for a drink. That's what we call foot traffic. A bar has a hard time thriving without it.

In new Luir's, it's around a dozen rooms to go from one gate to the other, and just as many to go from one gate to the stables and then to the tavern. Sure, that may only amount to a few minutes of typing on our part, but realistically that's the difference between a traveler stopping when they don't have to just for the hell of it, and a traveler not even bothering to see if it's worthwhile, and just passing on by along with their 'sid.

Let's keep in mind that this place is a trade outpost before a fortress. It took advantage of its naturally defensible position in the past, which seemed to do it just fine. Now, after morphing into some kind of pain-in-the-ass fortified beast, is the lower (non-kurac) pc traffic reflecting in Kurac's IC pocketbook? We are at least partially representative of vnpc trends.

[Dakurus]

Now, the above statement is true.
People can no longer do a ride by to see if there are interesting people to talk to, or if their latest target is there. They have to actually check.

As to the pockets of kurac, you'd be surprised at the amount of trade that still goes on in luirs. The market isn't seeing a real drop in traffic, though admittedly poor Tarkon sure seems to.  Luirs still thrives on lots of tribal, nomad, and DE business. Course then again there's been an increase in spice trade with that wonderful spice den.

It's not that people don't come into Luirs. It's that people don't hang around in Luirs.

Which I partially attribute to the more militaristic nature layout.

Dakurus

[proxie]

The thing here is, Luirs/Kurac did this as a response to being overrun multiple times. The IC quote I heard was "I'll be damned if they take my outpost again."

And so yes, Luirs has been remade with security more in mind. From an IC standpoint, it's still rather new. Changes still made, the various occupations and battles to reclaim it still fresh in people's minds. In order for Luirs to remain this neutral, free for all trade place, it has to be safe for all parties. There can't be the impending threat that Allanak will tromp through again, thus keeping Tulukis wary and vice versa. If Tuluk can just waltz south to give Nak some of their comeuppance, then the Allanakis will stay away too.

I think, in a few years, perhaps 5, perhaps 2, perhaps 10, as the proverbial guard changes and people's memories start to fade, security will slacken and changes will be made to encourage trade over repelling potential invaders. Until they get another slap in the face to kick them back into gear and make sure they close the appropriate gates all night every night.

It's not that much different than people walking around Allanak to avoid paying water tax. Inconvenience yes, but for those that it's an IC point to either pay it or not, they do what is appropriate for their PC. For those PC's who don't think it's worthwhile to brave Luirs' dangers, then fine. No amount of rooms should change that. If your PC would go into Luirs, then quit fussing about the extra rooms, how hard it is to find, yadda yadda, and go.

Also, outpost. No city to draw unlimited troops from, so if there's an attack, they're stuck using terrain and the outpost's design. Until the cavalry can get there and if I was invading, that'd be the first thing I'd cut off.

Proxie

[Spiced Kank]

realistically that's the difference between a traveler stopping when they don't have to just for the hell of it, and a traveler not even bothering to see if it's worthwhile, and just passing on by along with their 'sid.

I differ.  

Realistically, a traveller coming to trade in Luir's Outpost would stop by the tavern to have a drink if he felt like it, or move on if he didn't.  The lack - or abundance - of PCs wouldn't make a difference at all.  Maybe you ought to re-examine your thinking.  Travelling the "extra difference" shouldn't matter much, either, since realistically a trader would most likely want to stable his kank so that it didn't get stolen.  From there, it's a simple process to check the tavern while you're trading, so that even if you would realistically stop by, you can avoid it if there are no PCs warming up a coded barstool.

Many of those coming to trade would find Tarkon's a convenient stop, since it's right across from the market yard.  If they didn't stop by for the drink and some relaxation after a hard day, they might still come by to buy their spice - and there are plenty of spots to relax and smoke it up right in the tavern.  OOCly, players don't do this because there's no one to do it with, and end up perpetuating a needless cycle.  As a side note, there have been a kabajillion Kuraci in Luirs in the not-so-distant past, and if they sat their asses in the tavern more instead of hiding out in the barracks, this "lack of PCs" problem might just take care of itself.

[House Rising Sun]

The emphasis on realistically really drives the point home, there.

You're right throughout, but you missed what I'm saying. The pc population was another point, you see; whether or not to stop in relates to the hassle of entering a bloody fortress and walking halfway across it, as compared to already being inside the area and being forced to pass all the activity. Due to the layout, somebody travelling from one side of the world to the other now has to go pretty far out of his way to stop for a smoke and a drink when he doesn't absolutely need to rest. You picked up the road, a major source of business, and dropped it back down about as far from the community 'center' as possible.

I'll admit there does seem to be more to it all, such as area tribals that already go to the outpost specifically for trade, rather than passing through to travel, and the spice den transplant. I just think that even those parts of the outpost are going to take a hit from the road being removed from its old path directly through the 'commercial zone'.

I guess I'll be a naysayer until I see those crews finally disappear, so I'll save final judgement until all the facts are in.

[Rindan]

First, I have actually not seen new Luir's.  I have been a complete and utter Allanaki and Red Storm hermit for a long time.  That said, I personally think that if there are OOC playability issues conflicting with IC rational, they should be worked around.  The game is at its best when there is interaction.  Realism is nice, but I am more then happy to throw realism to the wind in exchange for playability in many cases.  It doesn't bother me that characters can stay awake for days on end and don't need to piss ever couple of hours.

The solution IC solution to a slightly IC and very much OOC problem might be as simple as blasting a new gate and winching a small mount over that gate's entrance.  Effectively, you could create a drop in wall.  Granted, you wouldn't want to shut that gate that way unless you absolutely had to, but if Allanak or Tuluk was pounding on the gates, you wouldn't think twice.  You could even throw a normal gate on it so that you can close up at night if you really want to.  A normal gate on top of a drop in wall makes for a pretty formidable defense.  Hell, throw in some other defense and make that the least desirable way to attack.  

Playability and realism doesn't need to rule the game, but it doesn't hurt to keep it in mind.  Bending and rationalizing some IC action to fix an OOC problem isn't a great sin in my opinion.

[Twilight]

Spiced Kank wrote:

Realistically, a traveller coming to trade in Luir's Outpost

That is fine if you are coming to trade.  Lots of times, I've been playing a traveller passing through, no intention to trade.  Under the old setup, I might still stick around Luirs for a bit, especially if I saw things were hopping.  Now, there is significantly less likelihood of that.

[Agent_137]

I think buzzing from 'nak to tuluk in half a IG day is crap unless you're roleplaying hauling ass and burning out your mounts, leaving them on the side of the road dead.

But that's just me. I'll always be stopping around luirs, so it's sensible for me to go in, regardless of having to scoot around the gates.


p.s.
horses walk at about 4 miles an hour.  (i'm assuming a kank would walk around the same pace)
that's one mile in 15 minutes.
One way to imagine the RL equivalent would be to take our half of daylight, 6 hours, 360 minutes, 24 blocks of 15 minutes, therefore I imagine the towns being only 24 miles apart if it's normal to walk your kank there in half of daylight. If you take hours more literally and say "three IG hours" to get to the other town, then it's only 12 miles! I could hike that EASILY in one day. Too close.

Anyway, we'll stick with the 6 hour RL approximation, then. So in 24 miles, you have an entirely different culture and environment. Hrm. Doesn't sit right with me.

Also consider the outdoor rooms are popularly represented as "leagues." A league is 3 and a half fucking miles. I don't know how many rooms are between 'nak and tuluk, but there's surely more than EIGHT! (3*8=24)

So, therefore, going from 'nak to tuluk in half a day is ludicrous. slow the hell down or roleplay galloping down the road. And if you slow down, stop in the comfort and safety of Luirs.

p.p.s
I am NOT an advocate of increasing the distance between tuluk and 'nak. Not only is it impossible, but it's not the easiest way to fix the twinkage. There are two easier ways:
Increase lagtime for moving in outdoor rooms or create greater awareness and let the players choose to roleplay well and show newbies and twinks ICly the proper way.
"you got here in half a day? Krath! How man kanks did you leave dead on the side of the road?"
"You didn't leave any kanks? OMG MAGICKER!"


respond to the derailment here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15447

[Angela Christine]

Comfort and safety of Luir's?  Meh, it is only going to feel safe if you trust Kurac, and who really trusts Kurac?    The mini-maze around the town doesn't just make it harder for invaders to get in, it makes it harder for visitors to get out if the Kuraci get nasty.  The only advantage is the stable feeding your mount for you, but if you a little further down the road you can find several nice spots protected on two or three sides that have suitable forage for most mounts.

Ok, the current set-up is only a minor inconvenience, but minor inconveniences change the game.  The "pull quiver" command makes it slightly easier to use a longbow or short-bow than to use a cross-bow or sling.  Most client programs will easily allow you to set up a macro that will allow you to remove, load and re-hold the bow in just a keystroke or two, so it shouldn't be a major hassle.  But bows are much more commonly used than slings and crossbows.  Both short-bows and slings are usually fairly short range weapons, but slings are much less expensive and the ammunition can be had cheaply or even for free if you have more time than money which should make them a perfect weapon for poor commoners (particularly in the south) but I see short-bows used much more often than slings.  Cross-bows come in a variety of ranges, like longbows, and the cost is usually similar, but I see waaay more longbows than crossbows.  I assume that this is because the "pull quiver" command makes longbows and short-bows slightly more easy to use than slings and crossbows.  A minor inconvenience that changes IC behavior.   I'm sure most PCs have a good reason why they use the weapons the use, but if they were equally convenient more PC might have found reasons to use the other weapons.

If people find a place inconvenient then they are less likely to find reasons for their characters to be there.  You don't see many non-rangers around Red Storm anymore, the non-rangers find reasons not to be there or people that want to play there find reasons to make their characters rangers.  Likewise if the current set up in Luirs is slightly off-putting, then people may find reasons for their characters to spend time in other places instead.

Angela Christine

[Ritley(to lazy to sign on]

Comfort and safety of Luir's?  Meh, it is only going to feel safe if you trust Kurac, and who really trusts Kurac?    The mini-maze around the town doesn't just make it harder for invaders to get in, it makes it harder for visitors to get out if the Kuraci get nasty.  The only advantage is the stable feeding your mount for you, but if you a little further down the road you can find several nice spots protected on two or three sides that have suitable forage for most mounts.

Ok, the current set-up is only a minor inconvenience, but minor inconveniences change the game.  The "pull quiver" command makes it slightly easier to use a longbow or short-bow than to use a cross-bow or sling.  Most client programs will easily allow you to set up a macro that will allow you to remove, load and re-hold the bow in just a keystroke or two, so it shouldn't be a major hassle.  But bows are much more commonly used than slings and crossbows.  Both short-bows and slings are usually fairly short range weapons, but slings are much less expensive and the ammunition can be had cheaply or even for free if you have more time than money which should make them a perfect weapon for poor commoners (particularly in the south) but I see short-bows used much more often than slings.  Cross-bows come in a variety of ranges, like longbows, and the cost is usually similar, but I see waaay more longbows than crossbows.  I assume that this is because the "pull quiver" command makes longbows and short-bows slightly more easy to use than slings and crossbows.  A minor inconvenience that changes IC behavior.   I'm sure most PCs have a good reason why they use the weapons the use, but if they were equally convenient more PC might have found reasons to use the other weapons.

If people find a place inconvenient then they are less likely to find reasons for their characters to be there.  You don't see many non-rangers around Red Storm anymore, the non-rangers find reasons not to be there or people that want to play there find reasons to make their characters rangers.  Likewise if the current set up in Luirs is slightly off-putting, then people may find reasons for their characters to spend time in other places instead.

Angela Christine

Nah, it's not the reason. I would favor a bow over a crossbow simply because it's more my (or my characters) style. Besides that, crossbows are poor for hunting, everyone knows that, so are slings, unless your hunting small little Jozhals. Even still, it would be unwise to use a sling just in case you met up with a dangerous creature by mistake.