Psionic Listen

[Jherlen]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to eavesdrop on the Way.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to hear other people's Way conversations would be branched off of something like contact or barrier. Still, lots of PCs have high Way abilities, so you'd never be certain who could be hearing you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of psionicists. Normal people shouldn't be that good with the Way." I do agree that really good psionics are for mindbenders, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a mindbender is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 8-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just eavesdrop on you. So I don't think giving everyone a psionic listen skill would make mindbenders much less effective.

Also, the skill could be explained in such a way that you're not really reading anyone else's mind, your character is just hypersensitive enough to the Way that they can sense thoughts traveling over it, even if the thoughts aren't meant for that character. I'd like to see an implementation of a psionic listen skill in such a way that if you're 'listening', you can't have a barrier up or be contacting/psi'ing anyone else at the same time. Listening would also drain your stun at least as fast as barrier or contact do. The skill could be set up such that your character would 'eavesdrop' any psi's sent by someone in the same room as they are, or alternatively, you would have to contact a single person's mind and then start listening to them (like a telephone wiretap). The second option is one I like better, because it'll make people more paranoid about people who contact their mind, and also give people more reason to barrier. Lastly, another limit on the skill could be that you could eavesdrop on WHAT someone was saying, but not who they were saying it to. I'm undecided on if you should be able to hear thoughts coming in to someone as well as going out.

Why do we need a psionic listen skill at all? To me, it's because the Way feels too secret and secure. I think it almost breaks plots. Secret undercover informants never have to meet their bosses to relay information, they can just be sitting right in the same room as the people they're spying on and Waying everything across the world. Unless a mindbender happens to be hanging around, no one will ever know. The Way is nice and convenient - it's like a cellular phone no one can ever hear you talking on. Most people aren't afraid to use it to relay secret information, no matter where they actually physically are. I just think secret things and plots should be discussed in whispers in private places, rather than over the Way while the noble and his aide are both sitting in a tavern surrounded by dozens of people. People should feel no more comfortable Waying each other about their plot to kill Amos in the middle of a tavern than they should feel comfortable whispering about it.

If you add a restricted way to eavesdrop psionics, I don't think it will nerf mindbenders or unbalance the game, but I do think it will make people have to go a little further in their nefarious plotting and intruiging, and that would be a good thing. What do you think?

[Larrath]

Though I don't like how secure the Way is, I don't think this will be a good addition.  It sounds very risky, at least.

[Nyard]

I like, but I don't think players would use it enough.

[Tamarin]

I often thought that people who have non-special abilities (ie karma abilities) should randomly gain some, and without really knowing it.  It would be totally random and arbitrary, and should usually only go to characters who have been playing for a decent amount of time (maybe 15-20+ days).  I think this would add a really cool element to the game, because as it stands it's like this:

1.  I app a mindbender.  Great.
2. Maybe roleplay having had this power come out of nowhere, and having to hide it.
3. I play my character out, having known from day 1 that even though he has had the abilities, he maybe didn't want them and that they are curse.[/list]
Now imagine your 30 or 40 day Chosen in Tuluk suddenly got the ability to suck the life out of nearby trees and use it to fucking incinerate people.  Man...you'd have to seriously hide that, and the ensuing RP opportunities would be fantastic.

[Demonaire]

I like the idea greatly, but I disagree with having it branch off something such as contact. Perhaps the entire psionics section for 'normal' PCs should be altered so that you have contact to begin with, as usual, and then you must branch barrier, then you would be able to branch this type of skill. I would really hate to see every half-decent PC able to read the thoughts of everyone around them at a mere will. This does deserve some attention, in my opinion as Armageddon needs a few more.. exciting (for lack of a better term) changes.



- Demonaire -

[ashyom]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

[Kennath]

I do think the way is to secure. Your messanger of your top sekrit message swills beer and mudsexes every hour. Its not like he has to work. Unless there is a mindbender, and he'll assume their isn't. Meeting in an alley, exchangeing some words, and useing your top secret code language... ahhh... but that will never happen, because guy a simply will way guy b the super sekrit info on when noble fancypants will and won't drink.

[Delirium]

I don't like the idea of it being an active skill.

I do like the idea of it being an inadvertent skill.

You can't turn it on or off, unless you put barrier up.

The better you are at using the 'contact' skill, the more a chance you might recieve a 'leakage' of someone's thoughts.  Your own chance of accidently leaking a thought depends on a percentage that goes off of your wisdom, contact, and barrier abilities, with barrier lowering the chance and contact raising it.

It would definitely make things more interesting.

[Edit to clarify.]

[Kennath]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

Nah, I always figured the way was somethin' that you needed to concentrate on. But I don't want it everyone in the bar to contact me if I put my hand to my temple...

[IntuitiveApathy]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

I'd agree with everyone else saying the Way is too secure.

I also like it being unconscious - a random chance to catch something from someone nearby, opening up all sorts of possibilities and not creating a massive imbalancing.  I don't see how an unconscious aspect would mutually exclude a conscious aspect though - if people were skilled/talented enough, I think if they for instance, caught something randomly while not paying attention, that they should be able to then 'tune in' so to speak and subsequently pay attention to catch more.  After all, if they can get something randomly while not paying attention, why couldn't they get more if they actually turned their attention to the subject later?  It could still be a random chance to pick stuff up, but now, the active monitoring could depend on skill/wisdom/distance/mansa, etc.

[Dalmeth]

Being new around here, this doesn't have much basis, but I do think psionic contact needs to be less secure, if not outright suppressable, and I do think this is a good idea.

Oh yeah, and some of you seem to suggest that reading thoughts has been brought up.  It hasn't.

Oh yeah, and making it automatic defeats the point.  The point is to make psionic communication less secure, not make another pain just for those who are skilled in it.

There really is no good arguement for psionic communication to be as secure as it is now.  You would think Zalanthans would have figured out various ways of combating it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to cast fireballs.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to cast fireballs would be branched off of something like shield use. Still, lots of PCs have shield use, so you'd never be certain who could throw a massive fireball at you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of Krathi. Normal people shouldn't be that good with magick." I do agree that really good spells are for magickers, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a Krathi is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 4-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just burn you to a cinder. So I don't think giving everyone a fireball skill would make Krathi much less effective.

Bolded parts are bits that I replaced.  How does everyone like my version of the proposal?  It makes just as much sense.  Let's leave the fireballs to the Krathi, and psionics to the mindbenders, folks.  It's really just better that way.

[Jherlen]

Larrath - of course this is risky, it would be a big change and changes are risky. But I don't think that means it's a bad idea.

Nyard - I don't see why people -wouldn't- use this... it'd be a great espionage tool.

Tamarin - Yeah, that would be cool, but it derails a bit... we're not talking about giving everyone mindbender powers, we're talking about expanding the Way so that normal, mundane people can listen in on it.

Demonaire - I don't think a large number of PCs being able to do this is such a bad thing. After all, five out of the six mundane guilds can use the listen skill. A psionic listen could be structured to be more restricted than listen is.

Ashyom & Delerium - Anything is better than nothing, but I think I'd like people making a concious effort of catching thoughts or at least trying to rather than not having any control over it. I don't think that a risk of someone catching an odd thought or two now and then would be enough deterrent to make people stop using the Way for secrets. If you know that someone could be snooping your thoughts, though, THAT would certainly give people pause. Or as someone said, both could work.

JGG - That's oversimplifying things. Fireballs are not foolproof almost totally secure ways to spread secrets and be an uberspy. Psionicism is, and everyone can do it, and I think that's overpowered.

(edited, I guess everyone -doesn't- agree, so I'll argue more...)

Imagine the game before the listen skill went in. As long as you're at your own table with no on else sitting, you can say anything and no one except 8-karma sorcerors with some spell that makes them hear EVERYTHING can hear you. Suddenly 'talk' becomes a really powerful command, kind of like 'psi' is now.

Psionics is very similar, and even more powerful than talk. The guy in your clan could be a spy. Without your knowledge maybe he works for the Guild, or for Templar X, or for the other city state. This PC could conceivably give away your EVERY SECRET to whoever over the Way, without having to meet with them in person ONCE. Unless someone rats him out, you make a lucky guess, or your clan happens to employ a mindbender, how do you find out? It makes things too easy to be a spy.

Restrict the skill severely, make it passive and unconcious, whatever, but I think the Way is too secure and it's too easy to spread secrets and use it for spying without much worry.

[Adhira]

It sounds like almost everyone feels like the Way is too secure and too easy, though... so whatever the solution is I think at least we can agree there's a need for something like this?

No. I wouldn't agree with that statement, at all.

[Nyard]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to cast fireballs.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to cast fireballs would be branched off of something like shield use. Still, lots of PCs have shield use, so you'd never be certain who could throw a massive fireball at you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of Krathi. Normal people shouldn't be that good with magick." I do agree that really good spells are for magickers, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a Krathi is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 4-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just burn you to a cinder. So I don't think giving everyone a fireball skill would make Krathi much less effective.

Bolded parts are bits that I replaced.  How does everyone like my version of the proposal?  It makes just as much sense.  Let's leave the fireballs to the Krathi, and psionics to the mindbenders, folks.  It's really just better that way.

Well, all Zalanthans are at least slightly psionic..  I think the original idea does make a lot of sense, considering that many helpfiles mention that all Zalanthans have some psionics, and everybody has simple psionic skills like contact and barrier.  The Psionic Listen sounds like a pretty simple psionic ability, so I don't see why everybody wouldn't have it.

[proxie]

Yes, the way is too secure. But I think EVERYONE is forgetting that there are people in both cities that can hear your psionics. Legitimate people who can make you disappear. Perhaps there needs to be an occasional public smiting of someone psi'ing to create treasonous acts to bring about more back alley and open sands meetings instead.  The way is NOT secure, us players just think it is because we think that there are no PC's that can hear it on a regular basis.

I don't know that I agree with the idea of randomly being able to listen to psi's all of a sudden, if so, that would be something utterly frightneing. If this happened, I'd say have it quite clear that this is NOT something you want to happen to your pc, and if it happens and you tell someone about it, expect to have huge repercussions. You just admitted you're becoming a mindbender, folks.

Another idea someone had ages ago was to have an invisible counter of who you contact and when your contact with Amos the bearded dwarf reaches a certain point, your chance for bleedthrough would increase exponentially.

Perhaps bump up the percentages of psionic bleedthrough?
That doesn't help with psi's though, only thinks.

How about a spice that dampens your psionic ability? A reliable poison? Or one that heightens your psionic abilities briefly so that you're cursed with hearing all thinks and psi's in your room for a while.

The way should be changed somehow, but the players need to remember that it is NOT a super sekret walkie talkie of doom that you can plot against the world.  Players should change their behavior to reflect that.

Proxie

[JollyGreenGiant]

Well, all Zalanthans are at least slightly psionic..

And in theory, anyone can learn sorcery.  That doesn't mean that everyone should.

[Maybe42or54]

I never liked how people would have super sekrit meetings over the way anyway. Don't you want to see their reaction In Person, to see if they are lieing, or are really into the plan?

Anyone can lie on the phone, but being in person to talk is a different thing and not everyone can lie when in that situation.

[Arabian Nights]

Sorry but no.
I think this is a terrible idea. The only ones who should be able to listen in on psionics are mindbenders and some mages possibly with some sort of magicks. I believe there are very specifically certain others who have some special psionic abilities and it makes sense that they do.

To anyone else of the normal population...absofuckinglutely not.

[LauraMars]

This might be something of a derail but I think it would be nice if the Way was more...volatile.  Say you are a dwarven miner and you're Waying with your brothers while sitting in the Gaj.  There are a ton of people around you and you are just sitting there idling.  People are trying to interact with you and you don't even notice because you're too wrapped up in your conversations.  They think you're linkdead or something.

The Way should send echoes, maybe.  Or more than it does, if it does.  I don't know if it does send echoes or not, but the point is, echoes.  More of them, or start.

"Grumpy's forehead wrinkles and he lifts a hand to his temple"

Then the bar patrons would know you were waying and leave you alone.  

It also annoys me when people Way while mudsexing or what have you, so echoes might prevent that somewhat.  Also, if you were a captured spy and ordered not to Way for help, they'd know if you were and KEEL YOU!  Maybe the echo frequency could decrease the better you got with the Way.


As to the idea itself, I like the idea of the Way being less secure.  It's too convenient as it is.  But I think the skill of Psi-listen (or whatever) should only branch if you are very advanced in the Way itself.  It should not be something a seven day warrior can get, rather it should be more like a twenty day merchant.  

People who have it could be regarded very suspiciously, and it might be slightly shady, verging on mindbender territory. (but not quite crossing that line)  Maybe you'd need a license to use it in the cities, or at least, you'd technically need one, just to make it look like the ruling classes are taking care of everything.  You couldn't crim-code a thing like that.  And of course it wouldn't be something people would talk about much.

Would someone who is having a mind-conversation be able to tell if there was another mind eavesdropping?  Maybe at a certain skill level?  I am just kind of brainstorming here, I'm too new for my thoughts to carry much weight, so don't mind me if I say something stupid.  

Tieing into my original idea, use of the "psi-listen" skill could send less and less echoes the better you got.  Ha, didn't derail.

[Kalden]

I like it. The Way is too secure, ubersekritmindbenders and their friends notwithstanding.

Of course, we all know it'll never happen.

Yes, the way is too secure. But I think EVERYONE is forgetting that there are people in both cities that can hear your psionics. Legitimate people who can make you disappear. Perhaps there needs to be an occasional public smiting of someone psi'ing to create treasonous acts to bring about more back alley and open sands meetings instead. The way is NOT secure, us players just think it is because we think that there are no PC's that can hear it on a regular basis.

OK, maybe you should delete your post? :evil:

I've never seen anything suggesting such things in the docs and I have no idea what mindbenders can do, or if they're actually around and not killed on sight by the authorities, heh. (You imply that they ARE the authorities.)

[Jherlen]

The way should be changed somehow, but the players need to remember that it is NOT a super sekret walkie talkie of doom that you can plot against the world.  Players should change their behavior to reflect that.

This is my exact point. It shouldn't be used that way, and some people are doing exactly that.

Let's assume there are people who can read your mind and make you disappear. Who knows if this is true, but for the sake or argument let's say yes. Even if these people hear what you're thinking, do they really care enough to make you disappear because you're spying on Junior Lord Amos Jal for Junior Lord Bob Sath? Do they have any reason to blow your plot to assassinate Junior Agent Sneakyshoes Kurac just because they overheard it? What if you're in a tavern Waying your friend and planning to mug that rich fancy aide in all the silks as soon as she leaves, would they care about stopping that? I'm nearly positive the Way is being used for these kinds of things, and just as nearly positive that people aren't disappearing over it. If you're trying to use the Way to plot high treason, sure, it may be a different story. But for the smaller-scale plots that PCs are more likely to get involved in... the Way is almost being used as a crutch.

I'm not advocating turning everyone into a mindbender. I don't think anyone but a psionicist should be able to read your mind or hear your thoughts (as in think command). My point is that everyone is sensitive to the Way, and some PCs can use it very adeptly but still on the 'normal' level. Those PCs that can use the Way well enough should be sensitive to (accidentally or on purpose) pick up thoughts not sent directly to them. This could be explained ICly as something that just happened. Something changed the way the Way works, and now it isn't as secure as it used to be. This isn't the fault of the people using it and it doesn't make them all mindbenders. The REAL mindbenders can probably do far, far scarier things to you.

What I'm asking for is for there to be something to deter everyday PCs from being able to use the Way around other everyday PCs freely and without consequence. The Way isn't completely secure, but I still think it's too secure, and we can make it less so without turning everyone into a psionicist or making everyone a Krathi or a sorceror. I think plots would benefit, I think espionage would be more intriguing, I think counter-espionage would be more possible, and I think everyone would have one more reason to watch their back before speaking their mind, which is a good thing.

[Kennath]

I am sooooo in favor. The way is too secure, and I dont care what people say about mind-benders, I've said alot over the way and they haven't killed me. Unless the mind-benders are some tektolnes hired someone, who kills people who say bad things, then nothing interesting/cool/challengeing is gonna happen. Way is WAY TOO SECURE.

[Dan]

Trust me, the way is -NOT- too secure. You may think it is because someone isn't going to make it obvious they can read your thoughts because you plan on killing worthless people, or plot out a scam here and there.

I like things the way they are, the way is not secure at all so far as I can tell. Feels comparable to talking at a table in a locked room. Sure, no one is probably hidden/invis whatever with you, but they very well could be.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Let's talk about communication and security for a minute.  I feel very strongly against this idea, but in the interest of not overdoing it, I'll leave well enough alone after this post.  Someone brought up phones, though, and I think there's a point here worth making.

Show of hands, how many of you know how to use a phone?  Looks like everyone.  Ok, you're now metaphors for people who know how to contact and psi.  Hands down.  Show of hands, how many of you can put a wiretap on your neighbor's phone line?  Put your hand down unless you've not only got the know-how, but the physical resources to accomplish the task, and if you had a fifteen minute window to do it and not get caught, you'd have it done in five.  Still got a few hands, cool.  You're all mindbenders, metaphorically speaking.  Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires.  I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers.  It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

One more try.  How many of you can communicate using your web browser?  Yeah, little joke to break the ice.  You're reading this post, after all.  How many of you can hack into the private messages and restricted parts of the GDB and just read anything at all that you want?  Not so many, maybe none of you, maybe a few.  Once more for emphasis: using a form of communication is not the same as being able to eavesdrop on it.

Ok.  How about security?  The Way is too safe, you say.  What exactly do you base this assumption of yours on?  You also assume your phone line is safe, your instant messages are safe, and your email is safe, despite the fact that demonstrably, all of those forms of communication have been hacked.  I can say a lot of bad things over instant messenger; I could give away my company's trade secrets - and probably nothing bad would happen.  Post a death threat to the President on a message board, though, and the Secret Service might show up at your door.  "The Way is too safe" is not a statement of fact.  It is nothing more than the assumption that you're making.  Is it a good assumption or not?  Maybe you'll find out.  Maybe you'll never know.

[Dalmeth]

Promptings to compare mindbenders to specialists would go a lot farther if they weren't KOS.  As it stands, it's nigh impossible to get a mindworm unless you've got connections out the wazoo.

[Anonymous]

Considering how unsecure regular communication is in Zalanthas I think the Way is fine as it is.  The reality should be that two people standing in the middle of an open space whispering to each other should only have to worry about some magicker-type person knowing what they are saying.  The reality should be that two people whispering to each other in a small, cramped room should only have to worry about the same.

Yet because of the way this game works, with only rooms to determine proximity codewise it isn't the case.  So to me having the Way the way it is balances things out.

Honestly people get into each other's business enough as it is just because of how all-pervasive the listen skill is.  Let's not subject the Way to the same.  It's not like the Way has resulted in nefarious plots being carried out on a daily basis.

[Maybe42or54]

As a person who was abused because the loudness of a tavern isn't there IG, I think the way does balance it out as previously stated, but it shouldn't be used unless you can't actually meet them at that time and what you want to say can't wait for another time. You are just hurting yourself by closing off the RP avenues.

I was very impressed when a pc approached mine and knew all about me from other people.

You just can't get that if every little secret is told over the way.

[JohnGalt]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?

I like this.  I think it should be limited to humans, and occur very rarely, but it would add an element of the Way being more strange and mysterious.  Right now, for anyone but a psionicist, the Way is nothing more than the Zalanthas equavlent to the telephone.

[Jherlen]

Okay, JGG, I'll grant you your points and refute them thus:

People can still HEAR you talking on the phone. If I'm on my cell phone in the bar plotting to kill my neighbor, people are going to hear me. Every day people, not the Secret Service with wiretaps. Or if I'm at home having phonesex while my girlfriend is in the next room... she'll hear me, kill me, and then break up with me (in that order, probably.)

Web browsers, IMs, newsgroups, etc... if you're using them in a public place, people can look over your shoulder and see you typing.

Both of these methods are catchable by people with no knowledge of wiretaps or hacking, just by every day people with the senses of sight and hearing. If we consider psionics to be a 'sense', it follows that someone could realistically pick up thoughts sent to someone near them physically.

Unfortunately, right now, that's not how the Way works. I could be a militia soldier sitting in the dead middle of a formation of other militia soldiers and Waying the commander of the enemy to warn them of our coming sneak attack. If there's not a friendly mindbender along, nobody is ever going to know the attack is given away. Can you do that with a cell phone?

I'll settle at that - if you want to use the Way to plot while you think you're alone and in some place secret, that'd be great. It'd be something like talking at a table in a locked room. You may not be totally safe but it's likely. You should still have to be careful of who's around you. You should maybe think twice before sitting right next to the guy you're plotting to kill and talk about it psionically. You maybe shouldn't feel safe in using the Way for shady things in a public tavern. Suddenly you might feel the urge to slip away to a dark alley to meet your shady contacts instead of speaking with them in a tavern. Because even if YOU are alone, who knows where THEY are or who's listening to them. I'd like to see people have to know they need to put a little more effort into spying and being a little more paranoid about who could be listening when they do.

[Cuusardo]

The Way is supposed to be a relatively secure method of communication.  It is two minds making a telepathic connection and speaking in that manner.  I don't think your average Joe Schmoe should be able to listen in on this.  Psionicists are the only ones who should be able to tap into the connections of other people's minds.

Seriously, if you're in favor of  giving this kind of thing to people, why not just go ahead and carry on with the Dark Sun tradition of random wild talents, and give everyone some other psionic power besides contact and barrier?  :evil:

[da mitey warrior]

I agree that this is an excellent idea.  Every other form of spying is available to non-karma guilds (listen, hide, alternate languages) except listening in over the way.  The fact that a few special app or karma pcs can do so does not really change it, the way is a very secure form of communication.

I have no idea how the way is supposed to work, but if all these messages are supposed to be flying through the air it makes sense that more than a couple people in the world should be able to listen in.

I say make it a human-only skill (humans are the best at the way accordig to the docs) which branches from contact.  It should give you a chance to hear a message  roughly equivilent to hearing a whisper at the same skill level, with an increased chance if the sender or reciever is in the same room as you, and a lower chance if they are in a different 'zone'.

It definatly should be something you have to turn on or off, since it could be rather spammy when 100+ players are online.

[Arabian Nights]

Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires. I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers. It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

You got it. That's how I feel about it.

[Cale_Knight]

Show of hands, how many of you know how to use a phone?  Looks like everyone.  Ok, you're now metaphors for people who know how to contact and psi.  Hands down.  Show of hands, how many of you can put a wiretap on your neighbor's phone line?  Put your hand down unless you've not only got the know-how, but the physical resources to accomplish the task, and if you had a fifteen minute window to do it and not get caught, you'd have it done in five.  Still got a few hands, cool.  You're all mindbenders, metaphorically speaking.  Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires.  I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers.  It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

Going along with this metaphor... It probably doesn't happen so much anymore, what with increasing tech and all, but there was a time when baby monitors would randomly pick up cell phone conversations. It wasn't hacking, it wasn't wiretapping, it was just that the baby monitors would sometimes, purely by chance, be on the same wavelength as the cell phone conversation.

That's what an unconscious chance at listening in would represent. Not any sort of neurological hacking, but just randomly being on the same psychic wavelength as a nearby Way message.

I'm all for being able to randomly pick up Way messages being sent or recieved in the same room. Not a huge chance - one in ten or even less.

[IntuitiveApathy]

The Way is supposed to be a relatively secure method of communication.

Who is anyone to say how the Way works?  Well, besides the imms.

For all we know, people in Zalanthas are sending microscopic midiclorians at the speed of light between each other.

In a way (pun intended), we're discussing how to improve the game here.

[Arabian Nights]

I don't feel a change like this would be an improvement. I believe it to be a step backwards and I'm sure some others feel the same way.

I believe there are some places that the game could use some work and this is definitely not one of them. The way has been tweaked and fiddled with and IMO it's pretty much -perfect- as it is now. Great job imms!

Also, think about it. You have to concentrate just to make a link with a single person, sometimes it is difficult even to do so. And some of you think that you should passively be able to pick up sends through the way?

Heh, if for some strange reason the imms actually considered an idea like this I think that it should have some serious drawbacks. As in you have to completely concentrate on it in order to do it, to the point of disregarding everything else and it should be really hard to do. I mean with people who try and do such knocking themselves unconcious from overloads of psionic information and such.

[Synthesis]

I think this is a terrible idea, whether it's coded as a random occurance or as something you can do intentionally.  It's already hard enough to get super-secret plots started, coordinated, and carried out without the chance of having Joe Bynner randomly get a piece of the plan over a psionic wavelength.

Since psionics could conceivably work -any- way (given that it's a completely fictional ability), we have to take a moment and assess it from a playability standpoint, alone.

This standpoint says: "listen," "hide," and "sneak" are powerful enough as it is.  Between these three, even Johnny Halfass can discover and make a complete mess out of even the best-laid plans.  If you added the ability to randomly or intentionally eavesdrop on the -only- way of sending a (mostly) secure message, people doing important things would stop sending sensitive information ICly--they'd just send e-mail, where there's no chance of being discovered -at all-.  Unfortunately, this takes the Imms completely out of the loop, which is why it's against the rules.  However, it's well known that some people have a tendency to bend or break the rules when the payoff will be large.

I think implementing this would tip the balance a little too much toward OOC coordination.

[Kennath]

No, super sekrit plots are horribly easy to pull off. But if joe bynner gets in the way, things become FUN. Thats right, FUN GODDAMNIT. I play this game, not as a job or anything ( i usually only log on every other day), but for GODDAMN FUN. And I think If joe bynner gets invovled, even if he does get your piece of info, he probably wont manage to do anything! Who would admit they heard something over the way to a templar?

[Dracul]

IMM INTERVENTION!

comon, lets see some leet immortal animated mindbenders in action. Hoo yah.

[bloodfromstone]

I would much prefer PCs to uncover each others' plots, rather than have an Imm decide an NPC mind bender found out about it. No offense to the Imms, I just prefer things to be player ran.

As far as the psi-listen, I'd like to see something to make people have to meet face-to-face more often, but I'm not sure this is the right way. *shrug* I'm not really experienced enough in how secure or not the Way is to say, myself.

[Moofassa]

No, bad idea. Leave it to the psionicists. Mine as well give warriors backstab while their at it then too.

[Sokotra]

I think some form of this idea would be cool...

I also still think psionic 'wild talents' would be very interesting.  I think one of the reasons against it was that they thought people would be killing off their characters and keep trying to get one with a cool talent... but I really don't see how that would be any different from how people (mostly noobs) do that trying to get very good stats.  And I would think that, just as with stats, most people would learn to accept what they get and role-play their character as best they can.

[SpyGuy]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

I personally love this idea.  But to take it a little further I would like it to only be available for people in your room who are sending (not receiving) psis and for it to be anonymous.  So say you're in a crowded tavern you get the message "Filtering through your mind: Alright, we're going to kill Templar X next week, meet me at dawn outside the gates."  You're in a crowded tavern, its going to be your job now to try and find out who it is if your character would even care.  This may lead to problems if you're the only 2 PCs in the room crowded by Vnpc populations but I hope most PCs would be more than willing to roleplay the mystery of it and being anonymous would, I feel, both represent it being an unconscious, latent mishap and increase oppurtunities of roleplay than immediately knowing character X is the culprit.  To further limit this I would suggest it not functioning if you have barrier up or are already in contact with someone else.

I agree that psionic listen may be too powerful for non psionicists.  But to everyone saying "Oh, they aren't psionicists so they can't do that and the Way is secure communication between two people and can't be overheard without special powers..."  Your average PC isn't a psionicist either.  Sure he can use contact, after awhile it can become about as easy as chatting and less exertion than walking to the bar to sit at a table.  But your PC -is not- some master of psionics whether he's good at contact or not.  Right now the way basically can't totally fuck up, even though your unskilled character is projecting his thoughts all over the world.  I don't think its unreasonable to do that math and say that sometimes these projections might race through another persons mind on their way to their target.

But in the end psionics are fantasy in a fantasy world.  Right now they work perfectly.  I wouldn't be opposed to changing that conception around a bit and making the use of psionics by non-psionicists a still common but not foolproof endeavor.

[Arabian Nights]

All this would do is cause people to stop using the way in public places for important matters and go hide out to have conversations via the way. I'm personally not for anything that makes people go hide out from each other in an attempt to have secrecy more than they already do either.

You guys are saying that you want this in so that you can catch wind of people's secret way conversations but all it would do is make people be even more secretive than they already are.

I know that personally, if something like this was in. I'd never way anything important in a public place anymore. I'd go hide out somewhere much the same way I do to have important conversations and use the way on top of it to be as secretive as absolutely possible.

People are usually going to be as secretive as possible when their lives are possibly on the line. All this would to is make people work a bit harder to be even more secretive and then the change is put in for -nothing-.

This may lead to problems if you're the only 2 PCs in the room crowded by Vnpc populations but I hope most PCs would be more than willing to roleplay the mystery of it and being anonymous would, I feel, both represent it being an unconscious, latent mishap and increase oppurtunities of roleplay than immediately knowing character X is the culprit.

That won't happen. We already have enough problems with people immediately blaming the only pc around for steal attempts....etc...using the excuse that: "I don't play the game to interact with the virtual world, I play it to interact with pcs."

[Dracul]

I would love to see 'wild talents' in game.

[Cuusardo]

Who is anyone to say how the Way works?  Well, besides the imms.

For all we know, people in Zalanthas are sending microscopic midiclorians at the speed of light between each other.

In a way (pun intended), we're discussing how to improve the game here.

Dude, the coded message says You send a telepathic message to...  Yeah, the Way is mysterious to everybody but mindbenders, but that's because they don't fully understand the workings of the mind.

Zalanthas is NOT Star Wars.  And I don't think that giving everyone the extra psionic abilities is going to improve the game.  As people have said countless times, this is a roleplay mud.  The game is not about balance and equality for everyone.

[Cyrian20]

IA just for typing midiclorians I am going to start powergaming my slay being psionic ability, prey I don't get it down.

[Medena]

As far as the psi-listen, I'd like to see something to make people have to meet face-to-face more often, but I'm not sure this is the right way.

I totally agree.

All this would do is cause people to stop using the way in public places for important matters and go hide out to have conversations via the way. I'm personally not for anything that makes people go hide out from each other in an attempt to have secrecy more than they already do either.

Bingo!

I think we all use the Way a lot more than we should and for OOC reasons -- ie. because we know that 3/4 of the PC population has the listen skill.  I personally get irritated when someone I'm talking with in a tavern suddenly takes the conversation to the Way when it's not even especially super-sekrit stuff.  Sure, maybe it might bring negative consequences if what you said got reported to someone else but heck, that's the fun of it.  I don't think there ought to be totally secure, risk-free means of communication because there ought to always be a chance of having any plot discovered.  However, I don't think making random psi-listen is the answer for the reason Arabian Nights gave.

A couple of years ago, I had a character who had to give instructions and hear reports from a spy.  We could have just done this from the safety of our own rooms via the Way but what the heck would be the fun in that?  The Way is borrrrrrrring. Instead we'd arrange to meet at some out of the way location, arrive in disguises, sit down there, talk quietly, leave separately, etc, etc, etc.  Factoring in the virtual population, there'd be some risk from someone randomly coming across us and finding our conversation interesting but probably a fairly small chance in a large city.  But, there was also a chance that someone might have followed either one of us and be sitting there in the shadows. Risk = fun.  RP'ing a meeting = way more fun than talking over the Way.

[Dracul]

Be the change that you want to see.

I will do this, and allow my secrets to slip. Using whisper, even in front of other pcs. Not noticing emotes from 'someone'.

I would -LOVE- wild talents I'll say again. I would love for my 20 day assassin to suddenly combust and realise he's a krathi (now this is an example where I could be pissed to lose my leet sneak/hide skills, or I could be way way overpowered by keeping them. but just one example) Guild changing...would be...awesome. especially if it wasn't your decision (which in some cases -could- upset you. but then you shouldnt be in complete control)

And I would love wild talents, yes, randomly give someone an extra psi talent. Not full mindbender status, but...yes. That would be so fucking awesome.

[Demonaire]

Be the change that you want to see.

I will do this, and allow my secrets to slip. Using whisper, even in front of other pcs. Not noticing emotes from 'someone'.

I would -LOVE- wild talents I'll say again. I would love for my 20 day assassin to suddenly combust and realise he's a krathi (now this is an example where I could be pissed to lose my leet sneak/hide skills, or I could be way way overpowered by keeping them. but just one example) Guild changing...would be...awesome. especially if it wasn't your decision (which in some cases -could- upset you. but then you shouldnt be in complete control)

And I would love wild talents, yes, randomly give someone an extra psi talent. Not full mindbender status, but...yes. That would be so fucking awesome.

Well, all but the first part. Everything else, perfect.



- Demonaire -

[Sokotra]

I hate to continue the derail concering 'wild talents' but I think it pretty much goes the same for this idea that is being discussed... in that it could be done so it wasn't EXTREMELY common, and instead somewhat rare that you would be able to catch a snippet of someone's conversation.  Thus people would not be so paranoid about using the way in public.  And in much the same manner, 'wild talents' could be given without making them extremely powerful... or at least the more powerful ones that you might have the chance of getting would not be extremely common.  It's all about balance.. and I think these sorts of things would make the game much more interesting if they were done properly.  There's always people going nuts saying "OMG NO WAY, I DONT WANT SOME RANGER COMING AFTER ME WITH A POISONED FIREBALL BOLT OF ACID ARROW FROM HIS VIBRATING GREATBOW OF STEALTH" ... come on... nobody is saying to change things that drastically and create some sort of massive unabalance in the game.  There are ways to make things like 'wild talents' work without going overboard... just as an example, you could even throw your basic 'skills' into the mix so that there might be a chance that you could get either a wild psionic talent or a random skill... just as in real life, there are certain things that make each of us individual and set us apart from everyone else... those little things that you are just good at or better at than everyone else.  Again.. done in moderation and being perhaps somewhat rare to get anything powerful, or have the skill 'top-off' at a certain level of effectiveness, or things such as that... would keep things balanced and still much more interesting.

[IntuitiveApathy]

IA just for typing midiclorians I am going to start powergaming my slay being psionic ability, prey I don't get it down.

I am -so- gonna midichlorian you to death!


On psionic wild talents: I'd love to see these appear with a small random chance for a character during its lifetime, rather than getting a random chance to have one at character creation.  That way you can avoid the stat whores who throw themselves at the nearest scrab going nuts with trying to get a wild talent.  Different races might have different random tables for talents.  (eg. Half Giants might only have a 0.03% per annum chance of getting psi_midichlorian_mind_bore)  

I don't think there were ever magical wild talents in Dark Sun, but if people are thinking about that I think that'd be a whole different ballgame altogether.

/derail

[Dalmeth]

Well, since most don't like the idea of peeking into psionic communication, I'd like to suggest the next best thing : plain disruption.  Discover a creature that emits a shrill sound which disrupts the ability of almost all listeners (not psionicists) to make psionic contact.  Make the sound carry over into adjacent areas and perhaps one more, if that isn't too much.  Doors and such would block this sound, of course.

[Agent_137]

the way is too secure.

I'm not sure common people overhearing thoughts is the answer.


wild talents would be cool, guildchanging would not.

you all of a sudden can cast a fireball. Cool. that's all you get. You aren't a krathi. you're just another commoner who happens to be able to cast a fireball, but can't really develop any other abilities.

respond to wild talents discussion here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=156140#156140

[Anonymous]

the way is too secure.

And whispering to someone standing in the middle of an empty room is not secure enough.  You could ride from Allanak, blow up your kank to make sure nobody was following you, tie buzzards to your feet and sky ski across the sea of Red Silt and land on the other side of the world in the Grey Forest to meet your contact and there would still be some damn elf pickpocket hiding in the room with you despite having no realistic place to hide and his listen up so that he hears you say the secret which will be on ever IG board the next morning.

That's why I don't think the Way should be opened up to the occasional psionic eavesdropper.  More plots/relationships go forward because of it's prevalence than would be the case if it was suddenly common enough to have a telepathic wire tap.

[Arabian Nights]

the way is too secure.

And whispering to someone standing in the middle of an empty room is not secure enough.  You could ride from Allanak, blow up your kank to make sure nobody was following you, tie buzzards to your feet and sky ski across the sea of Red Silt and land on the other side of the world in the Grey Forest to meet your contact and there would still be some damn elf pickpocket hiding in the room with you despite having no realistic place to hide and his listen up so that he hears you say the secret which will be on ever IG board the next morning.

That's why I don't think the Way should be opened up to the occasional psionic eavesdropper.  More plots/relationships go forward because of it's prevalence than would be the case if it was suddenly common enough to have a telepathic wire tap.

Exactly.
The way being as secure as it is makes up for whisper (or verbal communication at all for that matter),  being unrealistically unsecure even being locked up in a room that is just four walls, a floor and a ceiling with no furniture or anything to hide behind and someone could still codedly be hiding there and listening to your conversation.