Psionic Listen

[Dalmeth]

Promptings to compare mindbenders to specialists would go a lot farther if they weren't KOS.  As it stands, it's nigh impossible to get a mindworm unless you've got connections out the wazoo.

[Anonymous]

Considering how unsecure regular communication is in Zalanthas I think the Way is fine as it is.  The reality should be that two people standing in the middle of an open space whispering to each other should only have to worry about some magicker-type person knowing what they are saying.  The reality should be that two people whispering to each other in a small, cramped room should only have to worry about the same.

Yet because of the way this game works, with only rooms to determine proximity codewise it isn't the case.  So to me having the Way the way it is balances things out.

Honestly people get into each other's business enough as it is just because of how all-pervasive the listen skill is.  Let's not subject the Way to the same.  It's not like the Way has resulted in nefarious plots being carried out on a daily basis.

[Maybe42or54]

As a person who was abused because the loudness of a tavern isn't there IG, I think the way does balance it out as previously stated, but it shouldn't be used unless you can't actually meet them at that time and what you want to say can't wait for another time. You are just hurting yourself by closing off the RP avenues.

I was very impressed when a pc approached mine and knew all about me from other people.

You just can't get that if every little secret is told over the way.

[JohnGalt]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?

I like this.  I think it should be limited to humans, and occur very rarely, but it would add an element of the Way being more strange and mysterious.  Right now, for anyone but a psionicist, the Way is nothing more than the Zalanthas equavlent to the telephone.

[Jherlen]

Okay, JGG, I'll grant you your points and refute them thus:

People can still HEAR you talking on the phone. If I'm on my cell phone in the bar plotting to kill my neighbor, people are going to hear me. Every day people, not the Secret Service with wiretaps. Or if I'm at home having phonesex while my girlfriend is in the next room... she'll hear me, kill me, and then break up with me (in that order, probably.)

Web browsers, IMs, newsgroups, etc... if you're using them in a public place, people can look over your shoulder and see you typing.

Both of these methods are catchable by people with no knowledge of wiretaps or hacking, just by every day people with the senses of sight and hearing. If we consider psionics to be a 'sense', it follows that someone could realistically pick up thoughts sent to someone near them physically.

Unfortunately, right now, that's not how the Way works. I could be a militia soldier sitting in the dead middle of a formation of other militia soldiers and Waying the commander of the enemy to warn them of our coming sneak attack. If there's not a friendly mindbender along, nobody is ever going to know the attack is given away. Can you do that with a cell phone?

I'll settle at that - if you want to use the Way to plot while you think you're alone and in some place secret, that'd be great. It'd be something like talking at a table in a locked room. You may not be totally safe but it's likely. You should still have to be careful of who's around you. You should maybe think twice before sitting right next to the guy you're plotting to kill and talk about it psionically. You maybe shouldn't feel safe in using the Way for shady things in a public tavern. Suddenly you might feel the urge to slip away to a dark alley to meet your shady contacts instead of speaking with them in a tavern. Because even if YOU are alone, who knows where THEY are or who's listening to them. I'd like to see people have to know they need to put a little more effort into spying and being a little more paranoid about who could be listening when they do.

[Cuusardo]

The Way is supposed to be a relatively secure method of communication.  It is two minds making a telepathic connection and speaking in that manner.  I don't think your average Joe Schmoe should be able to listen in on this.  Psionicists are the only ones who should be able to tap into the connections of other people's minds.

Seriously, if you're in favor of  giving this kind of thing to people, why not just go ahead and carry on with the Dark Sun tradition of random wild talents, and give everyone some other psionic power besides contact and barrier?  :evil:

[da mitey warrior]

I agree that this is an excellent idea.  Every other form of spying is available to non-karma guilds (listen, hide, alternate languages) except listening in over the way.  The fact that a few special app or karma pcs can do so does not really change it, the way is a very secure form of communication.

I have no idea how the way is supposed to work, but if all these messages are supposed to be flying through the air it makes sense that more than a couple people in the world should be able to listen in.

I say make it a human-only skill (humans are the best at the way accordig to the docs) which branches from contact.  It should give you a chance to hear a message  roughly equivilent to hearing a whisper at the same skill level, with an increased chance if the sender or reciever is in the same room as you, and a lower chance if they are in a different 'zone'.

It definatly should be something you have to turn on or off, since it could be rather spammy when 100+ players are online.

[Arabian Nights]

Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires. I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers. It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

You got it. That's how I feel about it.

[Cale_Knight]

Show of hands, how many of you know how to use a phone?  Looks like everyone.  Ok, you're now metaphors for people who know how to contact and psi.  Hands down.  Show of hands, how many of you can put a wiretap on your neighbor's phone line?  Put your hand down unless you've not only got the know-how, but the physical resources to accomplish the task, and if you had a fifteen minute window to do it and not get caught, you'd have it done in five.  Still got a few hands, cool.  You're all mindbenders, metaphorically speaking.  Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires.  I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers.  It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

Going along with this metaphor... It probably doesn't happen so much anymore, what with increasing tech and all, but there was a time when baby monitors would randomly pick up cell phone conversations. It wasn't hacking, it wasn't wiretapping, it was just that the baby monitors would sometimes, purely by chance, be on the same wavelength as the cell phone conversation.

That's what an unconscious chance at listening in would represent. Not any sort of neurological hacking, but just randomly being on the same psychic wavelength as a nearby Way message.

I'm all for being able to randomly pick up Way messages being sent or recieved in the same room. Not a huge chance - one in ten or even less.

[IntuitiveApathy]

The Way is supposed to be a relatively secure method of communication.

Who is anyone to say how the Way works?  Well, besides the imms.

For all we know, people in Zalanthas are sending microscopic midiclorians at the speed of light between each other.

In a way (pun intended), we're discussing how to improve the game here.

[Arabian Nights]

I don't feel a change like this would be an improvement. I believe it to be a step backwards and I'm sure some others feel the same way.

I believe there are some places that the game could use some work and this is definitely not one of them. The way has been tweaked and fiddled with and IMO it's pretty much -perfect- as it is now. Great job imms!

Also, think about it. You have to concentrate just to make a link with a single person, sometimes it is difficult even to do so. And some of you think that you should passively be able to pick up sends through the way?

Heh, if for some strange reason the imms actually considered an idea like this I think that it should have some serious drawbacks. As in you have to completely concentrate on it in order to do it, to the point of disregarding everything else and it should be really hard to do. I mean with people who try and do such knocking themselves unconcious from overloads of psionic information and such.

[Synthesis]

I think this is a terrible idea, whether it's coded as a random occurance or as something you can do intentionally.  It's already hard enough to get super-secret plots started, coordinated, and carried out without the chance of having Joe Bynner randomly get a piece of the plan over a psionic wavelength.

Since psionics could conceivably work -any- way (given that it's a completely fictional ability), we have to take a moment and assess it from a playability standpoint, alone.

This standpoint says: "listen," "hide," and "sneak" are powerful enough as it is.  Between these three, even Johnny Halfass can discover and make a complete mess out of even the best-laid plans.  If you added the ability to randomly or intentionally eavesdrop on the -only- way of sending a (mostly) secure message, people doing important things would stop sending sensitive information ICly--they'd just send e-mail, where there's no chance of being discovered -at all-.  Unfortunately, this takes the Imms completely out of the loop, which is why it's against the rules.  However, it's well known that some people have a tendency to bend or break the rules when the payoff will be large.

I think implementing this would tip the balance a little too much toward OOC coordination.

[Kennath]

No, super sekrit plots are horribly easy to pull off. But if joe bynner gets in the way, things become FUN. Thats right, FUN GODDAMNIT. I play this game, not as a job or anything ( i usually only log on every other day), but for GODDAMN FUN. And I think If joe bynner gets invovled, even if he does get your piece of info, he probably wont manage to do anything! Who would admit they heard something over the way to a templar?

[Dracul]

IMM INTERVENTION!

comon, lets see some leet immortal animated mindbenders in action. Hoo yah.

[bloodfromstone]

I would much prefer PCs to uncover each others' plots, rather than have an Imm decide an NPC mind bender found out about it. No offense to the Imms, I just prefer things to be player ran.

As far as the psi-listen, I'd like to see something to make people have to meet face-to-face more often, but I'm not sure this is the right way. *shrug* I'm not really experienced enough in how secure or not the Way is to say, myself.

[Moofassa]

No, bad idea. Leave it to the psionicists. Mine as well give warriors backstab while their at it then too.

[Sokotra]

I think some form of this idea would be cool...

I also still think psionic 'wild talents' would be very interesting.  I think one of the reasons against it was that they thought people would be killing off their characters and keep trying to get one with a cool talent... but I really don't see how that would be any different from how people (mostly noobs) do that trying to get very good stats.  And I would think that, just as with stats, most people would learn to accept what they get and role-play their character as best they can.

[SpyGuy]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

I personally love this idea.  But to take it a little further I would like it to only be available for people in your room who are sending (not receiving) psis and for it to be anonymous.  So say you're in a crowded tavern you get the message "Filtering through your mind: Alright, we're going to kill Templar X next week, meet me at dawn outside the gates."  You're in a crowded tavern, its going to be your job now to try and find out who it is if your character would even care.  This may lead to problems if you're the only 2 PCs in the room crowded by Vnpc populations but I hope most PCs would be more than willing to roleplay the mystery of it and being anonymous would, I feel, both represent it being an unconscious, latent mishap and increase oppurtunities of roleplay than immediately knowing character X is the culprit.  To further limit this I would suggest it not functioning if you have barrier up or are already in contact with someone else.

I agree that psionic listen may be too powerful for non psionicists.  But to everyone saying "Oh, they aren't psionicists so they can't do that and the Way is secure communication between two people and can't be overheard without special powers..."  Your average PC isn't a psionicist either.  Sure he can use contact, after awhile it can become about as easy as chatting and less exertion than walking to the bar to sit at a table.  But your PC -is not- some master of psionics whether he's good at contact or not.  Right now the way basically can't totally fuck up, even though your unskilled character is projecting his thoughts all over the world.  I don't think its unreasonable to do that math and say that sometimes these projections might race through another persons mind on their way to their target.

But in the end psionics are fantasy in a fantasy world.  Right now they work perfectly.  I wouldn't be opposed to changing that conception around a bit and making the use of psionics by non-psionicists a still common but not foolproof endeavor.

[Arabian Nights]

All this would do is cause people to stop using the way in public places for important matters and go hide out to have conversations via the way. I'm personally not for anything that makes people go hide out from each other in an attempt to have secrecy more than they already do either.

You guys are saying that you want this in so that you can catch wind of people's secret way conversations but all it would do is make people be even more secretive than they already are.

I know that personally, if something like this was in. I'd never way anything important in a public place anymore. I'd go hide out somewhere much the same way I do to have important conversations and use the way on top of it to be as secretive as absolutely possible.

People are usually going to be as secretive as possible when their lives are possibly on the line. All this would to is make people work a bit harder to be even more secretive and then the change is put in for -nothing-.

This may lead to problems if you're the only 2 PCs in the room crowded by Vnpc populations but I hope most PCs would be more than willing to roleplay the mystery of it and being anonymous would, I feel, both represent it being an unconscious, latent mishap and increase oppurtunities of roleplay than immediately knowing character X is the culprit.

That won't happen. We already have enough problems with people immediately blaming the only pc around for steal attempts....etc...using the excuse that: "I don't play the game to interact with the virtual world, I play it to interact with pcs."

[Dracul]

I would love to see 'wild talents' in game.

[Cuusardo]

Who is anyone to say how the Way works?  Well, besides the imms.

For all we know, people in Zalanthas are sending microscopic midiclorians at the speed of light between each other.

In a way (pun intended), we're discussing how to improve the game here.

Dude, the coded message says You send a telepathic message to...  Yeah, the Way is mysterious to everybody but mindbenders, but that's because they don't fully understand the workings of the mind.

Zalanthas is NOT Star Wars.  And I don't think that giving everyone the extra psionic abilities is going to improve the game.  As people have said countless times, this is a roleplay mud.  The game is not about balance and equality for everyone.

[Cyrian20]

IA just for typing midiclorians I am going to start powergaming my slay being psionic ability, prey I don't get it down.

[Medena]

As far as the psi-listen, I'd like to see something to make people have to meet face-to-face more often, but I'm not sure this is the right way.

I totally agree.

All this would do is cause people to stop using the way in public places for important matters and go hide out to have conversations via the way. I'm personally not for anything that makes people go hide out from each other in an attempt to have secrecy more than they already do either.

Bingo!

I think we all use the Way a lot more than we should and for OOC reasons -- ie. because we know that 3/4 of the PC population has the listen skill.  I personally get irritated when someone I'm talking with in a tavern suddenly takes the conversation to the Way when it's not even especially super-sekrit stuff.  Sure, maybe it might bring negative consequences if what you said got reported to someone else but heck, that's the fun of it.  I don't think there ought to be totally secure, risk-free means of communication because there ought to always be a chance of having any plot discovered.  However, I don't think making random psi-listen is the answer for the reason Arabian Nights gave.

A couple of years ago, I had a character who had to give instructions and hear reports from a spy.  We could have just done this from the safety of our own rooms via the Way but what the heck would be the fun in that?  The Way is borrrrrrrring. Instead we'd arrange to meet at some out of the way location, arrive in disguises, sit down there, talk quietly, leave separately, etc, etc, etc.  Factoring in the virtual population, there'd be some risk from someone randomly coming across us and finding our conversation interesting but probably a fairly small chance in a large city.  But, there was also a chance that someone might have followed either one of us and be sitting there in the shadows. Risk = fun.  RP'ing a meeting = way more fun than talking over the Way.

[Dracul]

Be the change that you want to see.

I will do this, and allow my secrets to slip. Using whisper, even in front of other pcs. Not noticing emotes from 'someone'.

I would -LOVE- wild talents I'll say again. I would love for my 20 day assassin to suddenly combust and realise he's a krathi (now this is an example where I could be pissed to lose my leet sneak/hide skills, or I could be way way overpowered by keeping them. but just one example) Guild changing...would be...awesome. especially if it wasn't your decision (which in some cases -could- upset you. but then you shouldnt be in complete control)

And I would love wild talents, yes, randomly give someone an extra psi talent. Not full mindbender status, but...yes. That would be so fucking awesome.

[Demonaire]

Be the change that you want to see.

I will do this, and allow my secrets to slip. Using whisper, even in front of other pcs. Not noticing emotes from 'someone'.

I would -LOVE- wild talents I'll say again. I would love for my 20 day assassin to suddenly combust and realise he's a krathi (now this is an example where I could be pissed to lose my leet sneak/hide skills, or I could be way way overpowered by keeping them. but just one example) Guild changing...would be...awesome. especially if it wasn't your decision (which in some cases -could- upset you. but then you shouldnt be in complete control)

And I would love wild talents, yes, randomly give someone an extra psi talent. Not full mindbender status, but...yes. That would be so fucking awesome.

Well, all but the first part. Everything else, perfect.



- Demonaire -