Psionic Listen

[Jherlen]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to eavesdrop on the Way.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to hear other people's Way conversations would be branched off of something like contact or barrier. Still, lots of PCs have high Way abilities, so you'd never be certain who could be hearing you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of psionicists. Normal people shouldn't be that good with the Way." I do agree that really good psionics are for mindbenders, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a mindbender is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 8-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just eavesdrop on you. So I don't think giving everyone a psionic listen skill would make mindbenders much less effective.

Also, the skill could be explained in such a way that you're not really reading anyone else's mind, your character is just hypersensitive enough to the Way that they can sense thoughts traveling over it, even if the thoughts aren't meant for that character. I'd like to see an implementation of a psionic listen skill in such a way that if you're 'listening', you can't have a barrier up or be contacting/psi'ing anyone else at the same time. Listening would also drain your stun at least as fast as barrier or contact do. The skill could be set up such that your character would 'eavesdrop' any psi's sent by someone in the same room as they are, or alternatively, you would have to contact a single person's mind and then start listening to them (like a telephone wiretap). The second option is one I like better, because it'll make people more paranoid about people who contact their mind, and also give people more reason to barrier. Lastly, another limit on the skill could be that you could eavesdrop on WHAT someone was saying, but not who they were saying it to. I'm undecided on if you should be able to hear thoughts coming in to someone as well as going out.

Why do we need a psionic listen skill at all? To me, it's because the Way feels too secret and secure. I think it almost breaks plots. Secret undercover informants never have to meet their bosses to relay information, they can just be sitting right in the same room as the people they're spying on and Waying everything across the world. Unless a mindbender happens to be hanging around, no one will ever know. The Way is nice and convenient - it's like a cellular phone no one can ever hear you talking on. Most people aren't afraid to use it to relay secret information, no matter where they actually physically are. I just think secret things and plots should be discussed in whispers in private places, rather than over the Way while the noble and his aide are both sitting in a tavern surrounded by dozens of people. People should feel no more comfortable Waying each other about their plot to kill Amos in the middle of a tavern than they should feel comfortable whispering about it.

If you add a restricted way to eavesdrop psionics, I don't think it will nerf mindbenders or unbalance the game, but I do think it will make people have to go a little further in their nefarious plotting and intruiging, and that would be a good thing. What do you think?

[Larrath]

Though I don't like how secure the Way is, I don't think this will be a good addition.  It sounds very risky, at least.

[Nyard]

I like, but I don't think players would use it enough.

[Tamarin]

I often thought that people who have non-special abilities (ie karma abilities) should randomly gain some, and without really knowing it.  It would be totally random and arbitrary, and should usually only go to characters who have been playing for a decent amount of time (maybe 15-20+ days).  I think this would add a really cool element to the game, because as it stands it's like this:

1.  I app a mindbender.  Great.
2. Maybe roleplay having had this power come out of nowhere, and having to hide it.
3. I play my character out, having known from day 1 that even though he has had the abilities, he maybe didn't want them and that they are curse.[/list]
Now imagine your 30 or 40 day Chosen in Tuluk suddenly got the ability to suck the life out of nearby trees and use it to fucking incinerate people.  Man...you'd have to seriously hide that, and the ensuing RP opportunities would be fantastic.

[Demonaire]

I like the idea greatly, but I disagree with having it branch off something such as contact. Perhaps the entire psionics section for 'normal' PCs should be altered so that you have contact to begin with, as usual, and then you must branch barrier, then you would be able to branch this type of skill. I would really hate to see every half-decent PC able to read the thoughts of everyone around them at a mere will. This does deserve some attention, in my opinion as Armageddon needs a few more.. exciting (for lack of a better term) changes.



- Demonaire -

[ashyom]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

[Kennath]

I do think the way is to secure. Your messanger of your top sekrit message swills beer and mudsexes every hour. Its not like he has to work. Unless there is a mindbender, and he'll assume their isn't. Meeting in an alley, exchangeing some words, and useing your top secret code language... ahhh... but that will never happen, because guy a simply will way guy b the super sekrit info on when noble fancypants will and won't drink.

[Delirium]

I don't like the idea of it being an active skill.

I do like the idea of it being an inadvertent skill.

You can't turn it on or off, unless you put barrier up.

The better you are at using the 'contact' skill, the more a chance you might recieve a 'leakage' of someone's thoughts.  Your own chance of accidently leaking a thought depends on a percentage that goes off of your wisdom, contact, and barrier abilities, with barrier lowering the chance and contact raising it.

It would definitely make things more interesting.

[Edit to clarify.]

[Kennath]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

Nah, I always figured the way was somethin' that you needed to concentrate on. But I don't want it everyone in the bar to contact me if I put my hand to my temple...

[IntuitiveApathy]

Hmmm.  Alternative idea - instead of it being a conscious effort, how 'bout unconscious?  You run the risk of catching an odd thought or two now and then, but it wouldn't be something you could do on purpose.  Yea, nay?  Pros, cons?
-Ashyom

I'd agree with everyone else saying the Way is too secure.

I also like it being unconscious - a random chance to catch something from someone nearby, opening up all sorts of possibilities and not creating a massive imbalancing.  I don't see how an unconscious aspect would mutually exclude a conscious aspect though - if people were skilled/talented enough, I think if they for instance, caught something randomly while not paying attention, that they should be able to then 'tune in' so to speak and subsequently pay attention to catch more.  After all, if they can get something randomly while not paying attention, why couldn't they get more if they actually turned their attention to the subject later?  It could still be a random chance to pick stuff up, but now, the active monitoring could depend on skill/wisdom/distance/mansa, etc.

[Dalmeth]

Being new around here, this doesn't have much basis, but I do think psionic contact needs to be less secure, if not outright suppressable, and I do think this is a good idea.

Oh yeah, and some of you seem to suggest that reading thoughts has been brought up.  It hasn't.

Oh yeah, and making it automatic defeats the point.  The point is to make psionic communication less secure, not make another pain just for those who are skilled in it.

There really is no good arguement for psionic communication to be as secure as it is now.  You would think Zalanthans would have figured out various ways of combating it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to cast fireballs.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to cast fireballs would be branched off of something like shield use. Still, lots of PCs have shield use, so you'd never be certain who could throw a massive fireball at you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of Krathi. Normal people shouldn't be that good with magick." I do agree that really good spells are for magickers, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a Krathi is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 4-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just burn you to a cinder. So I don't think giving everyone a fireball skill would make Krathi much less effective.

Bolded parts are bits that I replaced.  How does everyone like my version of the proposal?  It makes just as much sense.  Let's leave the fireballs to the Krathi, and psionics to the mindbenders, folks.  It's really just better that way.

[Jherlen]

Larrath - of course this is risky, it would be a big change and changes are risky. But I don't think that means it's a bad idea.

Nyard - I don't see why people -wouldn't- use this... it'd be a great espionage tool.

Tamarin - Yeah, that would be cool, but it derails a bit... we're not talking about giving everyone mindbender powers, we're talking about expanding the Way so that normal, mundane people can listen in on it.

Demonaire - I don't think a large number of PCs being able to do this is such a bad thing. After all, five out of the six mundane guilds can use the listen skill. A psionic listen could be structured to be more restricted than listen is.

Ashyom & Delerium - Anything is better than nothing, but I think I'd like people making a concious effort of catching thoughts or at least trying to rather than not having any control over it. I don't think that a risk of someone catching an odd thought or two now and then would be enough deterrent to make people stop using the Way for secrets. If you know that someone could be snooping your thoughts, though, THAT would certainly give people pause. Or as someone said, both could work.

JGG - That's oversimplifying things. Fireballs are not foolproof almost totally secure ways to spread secrets and be an uberspy. Psionicism is, and everyone can do it, and I think that's overpowered.

(edited, I guess everyone -doesn't- agree, so I'll argue more...)

Imagine the game before the listen skill went in. As long as you're at your own table with no on else sitting, you can say anything and no one except 8-karma sorcerors with some spell that makes them hear EVERYTHING can hear you. Suddenly 'talk' becomes a really powerful command, kind of like 'psi' is now.

Psionics is very similar, and even more powerful than talk. The guy in your clan could be a spy. Without your knowledge maybe he works for the Guild, or for Templar X, or for the other city state. This PC could conceivably give away your EVERY SECRET to whoever over the Way, without having to meet with them in person ONCE. Unless someone rats him out, you make a lucky guess, or your clan happens to employ a mindbender, how do you find out? It makes things too easy to be a spy.

Restrict the skill severely, make it passive and unconcious, whatever, but I think the Way is too secure and it's too easy to spread secrets and use it for spying without much worry.

[Adhira]

It sounds like almost everyone feels like the Way is too secure and too easy, though... so whatever the solution is I think at least we can agree there's a need for something like this?

No. I wouldn't agree with that statement, at all.

[Nyard]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a very big idea. Bear with me and don't call me a heretic or anything, but I think every character should be able to cast fireballs.

Yes, everyone. Probably not right away - it makes more sense that a skill to cast fireballs would be branched off of something like shield use. Still, lots of PCs have shield use, so you'd never be certain who could throw a massive fireball at you. I'd like that.

Most people's first reaction to this would probably be "No way, that's too much the realm of Krathi. Normal people shouldn't be that good with magick." I do agree that really good spells are for magickers, and not having ever played one (as I'm guessing most people haven't), I don't really know the limits of what a Krathi is able to do. I can guess, though, that as an 4-karma guild, they can do a whole lot more than just burn you to a cinder. So I don't think giving everyone a fireball skill would make Krathi much less effective.

Bolded parts are bits that I replaced.  How does everyone like my version of the proposal?  It makes just as much sense.  Let's leave the fireballs to the Krathi, and psionics to the mindbenders, folks.  It's really just better that way.

Well, all Zalanthans are at least slightly psionic..  I think the original idea does make a lot of sense, considering that many helpfiles mention that all Zalanthans have some psionics, and everybody has simple psionic skills like contact and barrier.  The Psionic Listen sounds like a pretty simple psionic ability, so I don't see why everybody wouldn't have it.

[proxie]

Yes, the way is too secure. But I think EVERYONE is forgetting that there are people in both cities that can hear your psionics. Legitimate people who can make you disappear. Perhaps there needs to be an occasional public smiting of someone psi'ing to create treasonous acts to bring about more back alley and open sands meetings instead.  The way is NOT secure, us players just think it is because we think that there are no PC's that can hear it on a regular basis.

I don't know that I agree with the idea of randomly being able to listen to psi's all of a sudden, if so, that would be something utterly frightneing. If this happened, I'd say have it quite clear that this is NOT something you want to happen to your pc, and if it happens and you tell someone about it, expect to have huge repercussions. You just admitted you're becoming a mindbender, folks.

Another idea someone had ages ago was to have an invisible counter of who you contact and when your contact with Amos the bearded dwarf reaches a certain point, your chance for bleedthrough would increase exponentially.

Perhaps bump up the percentages of psionic bleedthrough?
That doesn't help with psi's though, only thinks.

How about a spice that dampens your psionic ability? A reliable poison? Or one that heightens your psionic abilities briefly so that you're cursed with hearing all thinks and psi's in your room for a while.

The way should be changed somehow, but the players need to remember that it is NOT a super sekret walkie talkie of doom that you can plot against the world.  Players should change their behavior to reflect that.

Proxie

[JollyGreenGiant]

Well, all Zalanthans are at least slightly psionic..

And in theory, anyone can learn sorcery.  That doesn't mean that everyone should.

[Maybe42or54]

I never liked how people would have super sekrit meetings over the way anyway. Don't you want to see their reaction In Person, to see if they are lieing, or are really into the plan?

Anyone can lie on the phone, but being in person to talk is a different thing and not everyone can lie when in that situation.

[Arabian Nights]

Sorry but no.
I think this is a terrible idea. The only ones who should be able to listen in on psionics are mindbenders and some mages possibly with some sort of magicks. I believe there are very specifically certain others who have some special psionic abilities and it makes sense that they do.

To anyone else of the normal population...absofuckinglutely not.

[LauraMars]

This might be something of a derail but I think it would be nice if the Way was more...volatile.  Say you are a dwarven miner and you're Waying with your brothers while sitting in the Gaj.  There are a ton of people around you and you are just sitting there idling.  People are trying to interact with you and you don't even notice because you're too wrapped up in your conversations.  They think you're linkdead or something.

The Way should send echoes, maybe.  Or more than it does, if it does.  I don't know if it does send echoes or not, but the point is, echoes.  More of them, or start.

"Grumpy's forehead wrinkles and he lifts a hand to his temple"

Then the bar patrons would know you were waying and leave you alone.  

It also annoys me when people Way while mudsexing or what have you, so echoes might prevent that somewhat.  Also, if you were a captured spy and ordered not to Way for help, they'd know if you were and KEEL YOU!  Maybe the echo frequency could decrease the better you got with the Way.


As to the idea itself, I like the idea of the Way being less secure.  It's too convenient as it is.  But I think the skill of Psi-listen (or whatever) should only branch if you are very advanced in the Way itself.  It should not be something a seven day warrior can get, rather it should be more like a twenty day merchant.  

People who have it could be regarded very suspiciously, and it might be slightly shady, verging on mindbender territory. (but not quite crossing that line)  Maybe you'd need a license to use it in the cities, or at least, you'd technically need one, just to make it look like the ruling classes are taking care of everything.  You couldn't crim-code a thing like that.  And of course it wouldn't be something people would talk about much.

Would someone who is having a mind-conversation be able to tell if there was another mind eavesdropping?  Maybe at a certain skill level?  I am just kind of brainstorming here, I'm too new for my thoughts to carry much weight, so don't mind me if I say something stupid.  

Tieing into my original idea, use of the "psi-listen" skill could send less and less echoes the better you got.  Ha, didn't derail.

[Kalden]

I like it. The Way is too secure, ubersekritmindbenders and their friends notwithstanding.

Of course, we all know it'll never happen.

Yes, the way is too secure. But I think EVERYONE is forgetting that there are people in both cities that can hear your psionics. Legitimate people who can make you disappear. Perhaps there needs to be an occasional public smiting of someone psi'ing to create treasonous acts to bring about more back alley and open sands meetings instead. The way is NOT secure, us players just think it is because we think that there are no PC's that can hear it on a regular basis.

OK, maybe you should delete your post? :evil:

I've never seen anything suggesting such things in the docs and I have no idea what mindbenders can do, or if they're actually around and not killed on sight by the authorities, heh. (You imply that they ARE the authorities.)

[Jherlen]

The way should be changed somehow, but the players need to remember that it is NOT a super sekret walkie talkie of doom that you can plot against the world.  Players should change their behavior to reflect that.

This is my exact point. It shouldn't be used that way, and some people are doing exactly that.

Let's assume there are people who can read your mind and make you disappear. Who knows if this is true, but for the sake or argument let's say yes. Even if these people hear what you're thinking, do they really care enough to make you disappear because you're spying on Junior Lord Amos Jal for Junior Lord Bob Sath? Do they have any reason to blow your plot to assassinate Junior Agent Sneakyshoes Kurac just because they overheard it? What if you're in a tavern Waying your friend and planning to mug that rich fancy aide in all the silks as soon as she leaves, would they care about stopping that? I'm nearly positive the Way is being used for these kinds of things, and just as nearly positive that people aren't disappearing over it. If you're trying to use the Way to plot high treason, sure, it may be a different story. But for the smaller-scale plots that PCs are more likely to get involved in... the Way is almost being used as a crutch.

I'm not advocating turning everyone into a mindbender. I don't think anyone but a psionicist should be able to read your mind or hear your thoughts (as in think command). My point is that everyone is sensitive to the Way, and some PCs can use it very adeptly but still on the 'normal' level. Those PCs that can use the Way well enough should be sensitive to (accidentally or on purpose) pick up thoughts not sent directly to them. This could be explained ICly as something that just happened. Something changed the way the Way works, and now it isn't as secure as it used to be. This isn't the fault of the people using it and it doesn't make them all mindbenders. The REAL mindbenders can probably do far, far scarier things to you.

What I'm asking for is for there to be something to deter everyday PCs from being able to use the Way around other everyday PCs freely and without consequence. The Way isn't completely secure, but I still think it's too secure, and we can make it less so without turning everyone into a psionicist or making everyone a Krathi or a sorceror. I think plots would benefit, I think espionage would be more intriguing, I think counter-espionage would be more possible, and I think everyone would have one more reason to watch their back before speaking their mind, which is a good thing.

[Kennath]

I am sooooo in favor. The way is too secure, and I dont care what people say about mind-benders, I've said alot over the way and they haven't killed me. Unless the mind-benders are some tektolnes hired someone, who kills people who say bad things, then nothing interesting/cool/challengeing is gonna happen. Way is WAY TOO SECURE.

[Dan]

Trust me, the way is -NOT- too secure. You may think it is because someone isn't going to make it obvious they can read your thoughts because you plan on killing worthless people, or plot out a scam here and there.

I like things the way they are, the way is not secure at all so far as I can tell. Feels comparable to talking at a table in a locked room. Sure, no one is probably hidden/invis whatever with you, but they very well could be.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Let's talk about communication and security for a minute.  I feel very strongly against this idea, but in the interest of not overdoing it, I'll leave well enough alone after this post.  Someone brought up phones, though, and I think there's a point here worth making.

Show of hands, how many of you know how to use a phone?  Looks like everyone.  Ok, you're now metaphors for people who know how to contact and psi.  Hands down.  Show of hands, how many of you can put a wiretap on your neighbor's phone line?  Put your hand down unless you've not only got the know-how, but the physical resources to accomplish the task, and if you had a fifteen minute window to do it and not get caught, you'd have it done in five.  Still got a few hands, cool.  You're all mindbenders, metaphorically speaking.  Here's my point: knowing how to use a form of communication does NOT mean that you have the deep knowledge and skillset that hacking into that form of communication requires.  I've always envisioned mindbenders as neurological hackers.  It's an easy metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense.

One more try.  How many of you can communicate using your web browser?  Yeah, little joke to break the ice.  You're reading this post, after all.  How many of you can hack into the private messages and restricted parts of the GDB and just read anything at all that you want?  Not so many, maybe none of you, maybe a few.  Once more for emphasis: using a form of communication is not the same as being able to eavesdrop on it.

Ok.  How about security?  The Way is too safe, you say.  What exactly do you base this assumption of yours on?  You also assume your phone line is safe, your instant messages are safe, and your email is safe, despite the fact that demonstrably, all of those forms of communication have been hacked.  I can say a lot of bad things over instant messenger; I could give away my company's trade secrets - and probably nothing bad would happen.  Post a death threat to the President on a message board, though, and the Secret Service might show up at your door.  "The Way is too safe" is not a statement of fact.  It is nothing more than the assumption that you're making.  Is it a good assumption or not?  Maybe you'll find out.  Maybe you'll never know.