half-elf > elf?

Started by keithor, September 21, 2005, 12:34:11 PM

Which course of action would you favor?

Downtweaking half-elves
5 (9.3%)
Upping elf support/abilities
8 (14.8%)
Neither, things are perfect, it's the players' fault
41 (75.9%)
Other (my idea's in the reply)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Voting closed: October 01, 2005, 12:34:11 PM

I'm new, so forgive me for perhaps rehashing something that's been discussed before but this struck me as odd.  

 I've read numerous posts lamenting the current (large) number of HEs and I think I know why..

 All the people who like elven characters are ending up having to pick HEs if they want any kind of (positive) interaction.

Advantages of Half-Elfs over city Elf:
+ able to join a clan (besides the shady one, that's not for all elves)
+ can ride mounts (huge if you want a ranger/outdoorsy type w/o apping)
+ can leave cities (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life)
+ can have sdecs that pass for human (prevents mass-glaring)

Advs of Elf over HE:
+ aren't required to have a personality disorder (the inner-turmoil thing)
+ have a large VNPC elf population to hang with
+....er...um... they're taller  :P


 Now I realize I'm very new so my opinions are somewhat uninformed but for the above reasons I can see why HEs outnumber CEs by 2:1 when it should be the other way around.

 I believe that if you really want elves to be a major part of the player base that you need to give the players a reason to pick them.  
ATM I don't see any real reason a person would pick an elf except for RP reasons (that they want to explore mostly by themselves...).

 I don't want to be considered a ranter so I'll give some possible solutions:
A) Reduce HE endurance signifigantly because they're a mutant/hybrid race which would concievably lead to many defects.
B) Create one or two city elf tribes that can give the CEs a place to interact reasonably safely. (does this already exist? I haven't seen it)
C) Allow some way for CEs to travel (no wagon + no mount + no trust + no other elves + highly dangerous outside = stranded  :cry: )
D) Find some generally fulfilling niche for the elves to inhabit.  I personally have real trouble finding a non-rinther place for any elf, which is silly when they're supposed to be almost as populous as humans.


 So as responses to this post I'm looking for reasonable elf jobs/clans.
OR
 Other suggestions on how we can close the CE-HE gap.
OR
 Reasons elves are actually better than breeds and I've got it all wrong.


Thanks for reading, keep america literate  :wink:
id my reputation preceed me, or was I too quick for it?

You left off, from elf advantages:

* Uber running skills.
* Awesome stats. (inasmuch as stats matter)

And don't underestimate the difference that the two different mentalities make.  An elf can grow to trust someone else eventually, to a certain degree.  An elf can have a circle of pretty reliable friends. (Though I greatly prefer paranoia to rule their interactions for quite some time, until the trust and loyalty is built very strong.)  This isn't even mentioning the possibilities for belonging and interaction if you have PC tribemates.

A breed never really belongs.  Human-looking ones are usually found out eventually.  And even if you're a completely secret halfelf, if you're RPing that breed correctly, you will still find it very difficult to forge strong relationships.  At least I do.  The inner turmoil, the self-doubt, the drive for independence, the burning need to be accepted, they all have very real effects on your character's IC life, even if most all of it takes place in thinks.  

Your char tries to be the best friend he can.  He really really does, but somehow, even though that conflict is internal, it really does affect your relationships.  To understand this, you really have to play a secret half-elf and roleplay the conflict the best you can.  You will understand.  You just never have the friends you want.  Somehow, they never have the relationships your human chars have, even if everyone else thinks they are human.  The insecurity comes through.  The neediness comes through.  Even if no one knows you are a breed, somehow they know to keep you at a distance.


As for travelling, city elves are city elves.  They live in the city.  I've known some city elves ICly that have made some trips to other cities, but it is pretty seldom.  Being seldom, however, is what makes it special.  There's plenty to do within the city though.  I don't see this as a problem at all.  Many of my characters, even humans and half-elves, never leave the city.  Ever.  And they have absolutely thrill-packed lives.  I think it's realistic for city elves to stay put.  They can travel, but in more limited ways than the other races.  This ensures they only do it realistically and when necessary.

City elves have tribes.  Don't worry about this one.

I do kind of agree in the "more roles for non rinther elves" point.  I guess this could be a "change it IC" situation.  Make a non-rinther elf and find a way to make a living.  But I do think there could be systems in place to support it.  I'm not aware of any active tribes in Allanak proper.

Also, the roleplay is awesome as an elf.  Elves are, without a doubt, my favorite race to play.  The difficulties are mostly just part of the fun.

This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

While I don't agree with all of what the parent poster has to say, I do agree with the general problem.  Right now, there are more half-elves then there are city elves in the game.  This is NOT how it should be.  Half-elves should be rare freaks that get treated worse then an elf.  Instead, it is the other way around.  People look at my elf character like they have never seen one, but seem to be completely content with chatting with a half-elf.  I do think that in large part this has a lot to do with code and organizational problems in game, and I do think that they should be addressed.

There are two problems with a city elf.  First, city elves can't leave the city at all.  City humans can jump on a kank and ride around all they want.  City elves on the other hand are very much taking their lives into their hand each time they leave the city.  I would like to see the coded distinction between city elves and desert elves blurred.  City elves should not suddenly have their legs fall off if they touch sand while desert elves can act like kanks and run merrily across the known world.  They are both supposed to be elves.  I would prefer to see city elves have a watered down version of a desert elf's ability to run without dropping dead after three rooms.  I would want to see this if for no other reason then it makes a Byn elf a viable character.  A mercenary that can't leave the city is pretty close to useless.

Second, city elf organizations are sorely lacking.  There are no active city elf tribes.  There are no city based clans with the limited exception of kinda-sorta-sometimes-Kurac that an elf can join.  While humans and even dwarves are given a pile of clans they can join with imm support, elves are pretty much left to their own devices.  This leaves a race that is deeply paranoid and tribal to their own devices.  Not surprising, this leads to very few elven PC made clans.  If you are a city elf PC, your options for organizations are the one or two criminal organizations that occasionally pop up and tend to get wiped out quickly and have little support, or you can by a Byner who isn't allowed on any mission more then a stones throw away from the city.

With these two facts in mind, it shouldn't come as much surprise that half-elves out number city elves.  Playing a city elf is simply very hard unless you are a very self motivated player or a loner who likes cities.  Even if you do manage to build something in game, you need to build it in an environment where arbitrary death is a dozen times more likely to befall you then a human trying to accomplish the same thing.  I can't even count how many times my city elf has been singled out by the militia to give information about another city elf or die.  Yeah, my elf probably knows the elf they are looking for, but it is only because there are a grand total of three of us in the entire city and when we find each other we sob with the joy of finding another elf.

Fix city elves so that their legs don't fall off the second they hit sand and build ANY kind of organizational support and I bet you will see a lot more elves.  Just one city elf tribe in the Allanaki commons would give a massive boost to elven RP.  I would merrily trade a noble house or an isolated clan for just one imm sponsored city elf tribe.

Quote from: "keithor"
Advantages of Half-Elfs over city Elf:
+ able to join a clan (besides the shady one, that's not for all elves)
+ can ride mounts (huge if you want a ranger/outdoorsy type w/o apping)
+ can leave cities (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life)
+ can have sdecs that pass for human (prevents mass-glaring)

Advs of Elf over HE:
+ aren't required to have a personality disorder (the inner-turmoil thing)
+ have a large VNPC elf population to hang with
+....er...um... they're taller  :P

 I don't want to be considered a ranter so I'll give some possible solutions:
A) Reduce HE endurance signifigantly because they're a mutant/hybrid race which would concievably lead to many defects.
B) Create one or two city elf tribes that can give the CEs a place to interact reasonably safely. (does this already exist? I haven't seen it)
C) Allow some way for CEs to travel (no wagon + no mount + no trust + no other elves + highly dangerous outside = stranded  :cry: )
D) Find some generally fulfilling niche for the elves to inhabit.  I personally have real trouble finding a non-rinther place for any elf, which is silly when they're supposed to be almost as populous as humans.


Okay... You're wrong on a few points here, but a lot of it can be attributed to your newness.

From the top:
1) Clan joining. No, Half elves usually can't join clans, or if they do, they know from the getgo that they're not going to be respected or promoted as much as their pureblooded counterparts, even if they're better in all ways. And most if not all of the noble houses refuse to hire breeds.

2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places.

3) Can leave cities. (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life) City elves do, that's who. Their clan is there, their family, all their trade and swindling connections, they know where precisely to get the best deal on everything they need. The round ears and halfears will come to them if the elves need something. Why would they leave?

4) No, from what I've heard, breeds have to have something in their desc to prevent hiding as the other, without a special app anyway. (Could be wrong, obviously. That's a staff point, I'd say.) And assess -v will point out a breed in a crowd, and that gives the players the right to notice those slightly rounded ears, slanty eyes, and that they're half a head taller than a human of a comparable age.

5) I think you have a misconception that halfelves are these hugely wonderful mutant pcs. There's very little that's different in actuality, AND they have the insane discrimination and neurosis issues to deal with. Half elves strive for acceptance, and they will NEVER get it. It's almost like an underwritten dwarven focus that they can never achieve, so their lives are pretty bleak when that fact rears it's ugly head.

Your elf advantages are true, but I'd say give an elf a try, both a city elf and a desert elf when you know the game a bit better, and see what you come up with.  Those three things are pretty shallow and will be developed and added to with time and play within the elf culture.

To answer your questions/solutions:
A) I don't think endurance is that high, or it wasn't with the last breed I played.
B) Find out IC, pretty sure there are places for city elves to congregate and live. If there aren't, then create some, as a city elf. You'll learn a lot during the attempt.
C) Why would CE's want to travel? You're missing the point of being a CITY elf.
D) You should have trouble finding a non crime based place for any elf at least if you're looking in the human dominated areas of the city. They don't want to fit in with humans. Their main purpose in hiring on with a human based group would be to get access to the barracks and strip it bare some dark and stormy night after she's set fire to the clan's main compound.



Just my two 'sid, which I'm sure got intercepted on their way to the jar by a neck's long fingers.

Proxie
For those who knew him, my husband Jay, known as Becklee from time to time on Arm, died August 17th, 2008, from complications of muscular dystrophy.

I strongly agree with Rindan's point about making some spot for non-'rinthi elves to hang out.  It's needed badly.
I say, take those empty apartments people use for mudsex in Allanak and turn them into mini-tribal compounds.  Two elven tribes, two nearby streets, many agitated templars.

I don't think it's really possible to compare an elf to a half-elf like this, though.  Half-elves are played solo; they sometimes try to get into a group, but they never truly will and they know it, and even if by some crazy luck they DID get accepted, they won't be able to really feel that way.  And there's the mood swings.
Elves on the other hand are based on tribes.  It's cooperation, that's how elves -should- be.  To me, most of those solitary mass-pickpocketing elves aren't real elves at all.  An elf is thoroughly dedicated to his or her tribe.  They're flawed like anyone else, but they're dedicated and extremely trusting, and the mindset is us vs. them, which is quite special when considering that they're in a city filled with opportunists non-elves who'd kill their own family if they thought it would make a templar like them.
Playing an elf like a half-elf (that is, solitary) is in most cases just very silly as well as hard to do properly.
Quote from: Vesperas...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

I don't like that half elves get a boost with animals and mounts. Never have.

To me, outcasted by society just doens't justify. I bet amongst armageddon's  playerbase there are many unsociable and solitary people, but unless they have pets they have no more special bond to them (which a sociable person, such as a full human, would be just as likely to have). I myself had a dog but I didn't like her, I'm really unsociable as right now after my brother moved I would say I have one friend, and I'm not his best friend.
I don't like that at all, to me it just seems too much code, not even realistic.

Now, as for places for elves to hang out? The gaj, why not. Although the suggestion of some tribal compounds would be great, elves ARE tribal, and just because they're city elves doesn't make them not tribal, they're in city elf tribes, but as far as I know, they only coded tribes are rinthi based. Not good.
Veteran Newbie

QuoteI don't like that half elves get a boost with animals and mounts. Never have.

Me either. It makes no logical sense to me.
"Dumbass." - Red Foreman

I say let half-elves keep their buff perks. Just make them karma restricted to level 1 and move desert elves up to level 2. Voila.

Quote2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

QuoteC) Why would CE's want to travel? You're missing the point of being a CITY elf.

I guess I have trouble with such a specific race-wide generalization.  I mean, if you're brought up by humans, why would have a problem with mounts?  I realize elves ARE NOT raised by humans, but you see my point? It seems more a CULTURAL issue, perfectly suited to desert elves.
In a similar vein, just because your ancestors decided to live in a city doesn't mean you will necesarily feel the same way.


QuoteD) You should have trouble finding a non crime based place for any elf at least if you're looking in the human dominated areas of the city

Do most elves live in the 'rinth? PCs yes, VNPCs?


QuoteThis is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

Not at all! Balance would mean the ideal is elf = half elf.  Whereas I'm suggesting that if the staff want very few half elves, and lots of elves, then elves should be BETTER than half elves from an OOC player convenience point of view.  Making it extremely OOC hard to create a city elf results in very few being created, no one wants to look twinkish for going against docs.  How do you role-play a tribal city elf with no documented tribe? (correct me if I'm wrong, didn't see any city-based tribes on the tribe page)

Rindan:
QuoteWhile I don't agree with all of what the parent poster has to say...

Maybe not but I agree with what you said  :D
I was hoping Rindan would post, his/her posts are flame free and well put.  Rindan addresses the central issue with the city elves as I see it.  They're expected to be tribal in nature but have no tribe to start in.  So basically you not only have to write your character, but a whole tribe.
In 1500 characters or less  :shock:

So, to sum up:
City elves need a clans too.  :!:
(and a lil outside movement would be icing)
id my reputation preceed me, or was I too quick for it?

Quote from: "keithor"
Quote2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

Running on paved roads and hardpacked roads is a lot different then running on sand and loosely packed dirt.
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on April 16, 2008, 10:34:00 AM
Arm is evil.  And I love it.  It's like the softest, cuddliest, happy smelling teddy bear in the world, except it is stuffed with meth needles that inject you everytime

Half-elves have had affinity with mounts since Dark Sun, I believe.  Anyway, what elves need isn't an elf-only tavern or somewhere to hang out.  What elves need is a tribal house compound thing where they can hide from the Militia or Templarate or stash their stolen goods that isn't the 'rinth (because otherwise they can might as well make a 'rinthi elf).

It's not that far-fetched.  Allanak has plenty of alleys and collapsed buildings and people shady enough to have a little shop in the front and a compound in the back.

If most elves live in the 'rinth, then it's 60% at the very most.  This is simple to prove - the 'rinth is divided into two mostly-even sides - one largely elven and one largely human.  Elves are a close second as the most populous race in Zalanthas, closely following the humans.  This statement includes elven tribes, but it includes human tribes as well.  Now, if the 'rinth had two elves for every human there, the sides would be the Elfside and the Outside - that is, they'd take over completely.
Allanaki elven tribes do exist ICly, and some of them could have no relation to the 'rinth at all (or only to fence stolen goods, possibly).  Players need the ability to belong to these tribes, because only the rarest of the rare should start without a tribe and end without a tribe.

Seriously.  The existence of a coded tribe with players, for an elf, is just extremely important.  Some players are good enough to be able to make do realistically with a virtual tribe, but it can never fully replace it.
Quote from: Vesperas...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

There needs to be an elven market that -isn't- entrenched in the deepest depths of the labyrinth, to go along with Larrath's input.

A front for the criminal activities that -that- particular group (the ones in the labyrinth) participate in.

The problem is that anytime elves start to get established, some templar who needs to make a name for themselves eradicates it, despite the fact that elves generally have plenty of what should protect them:  Coins.

People aren't bribeable enough, because coins aren't valuable enough.  *sigh*
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Just a few notes, one people say there are not any real solid city elf tribes. Heh play one you will be surprised, I know this for a fact becaue my last two elves lived pretty good lives working with some of the tribes.

And there are plenty of city elves, some just never actually go into the southern quarter so ya never see em, if anything that means they are being rp'd out correctly. And there are always spikes of one race over another for as long as I have played. I remember when there was like 8 dwarves sitting around every bar or when you had to bolt down your kank so some elf wouldn't steal it cause there was like 3 hidding in every tavern. Give it time you will start seeing the jump of h/e's drop pretty quickly
quote="Tisiphone"]Just don't expect him to NOT be upset with you for trying to steal his kidney with a sharp, pointy stick.[/quote]
The weak may inherit the earth, but they won't last two hours on Zalanathas

Something interesting this post has brought up has got me thinking.

Are elves currently geared more towards being loner types than half-elves?

I haven't actually had the time to play a half-elf in my Arm career so far, but I've played quite a few elves, and many of them have been loner types. Not out of choice, but more because there aren't many PC groups, let alone elven PCs, for city elves to get involved with.

Anyone else find this?

There's plenty of elves around, you just don't tend to see them often. There's no real problem.

QuoteThe problem is that anytime elves start to get established, some templar who needs to make a name for themselves eradicates it, despite the fact that elves generally have plenty of what should protect them: Coins.

Pretty unfounded statement...elves tend to make lots of trouble for themselves and not use their coins right. Especially in the 'rinth.

There's more elves in the rinth than there are humans, most of the time. That's the best place to play an elf.

Quote from: "keithor"I'm new, so forgive me for perhaps rehashing something that's been discussed before but this struck me as odd.

First off, there's a variety of docs and previous posts that should have been looked at, or should be looked at, before going off on any presumptions. Here's a few:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfelf.html
A Gentle Reminder Concerning Half-elves
Half Elf Race
Elves and the Southern Templarate
The half-elf gene pool
And this list continues...

With that aside, I think half-elves and elves currently are perfectly fine as they are codedly, and just may need abit of refreshing on roleplay aspects. As some have already mentioned, while it seems half-elves might be a better race to play than elves, it is hard to compare these two races and determine which is better or not, if the different aspects for each race is fully revealed.

On one hand there is the elven role, and from what this thread is gearing towards, it seems more like city-elf roleplay. C-elf roleplay is unique in that, although there aren't many coded clans that would accept a c-elf, they have have their own tribe and culture that is located within city walls. Is is partly due to this tribal mindset that places many elves in the rinthi parts of the Nak, and given their own specific plaza in Tuluk. While an elven tribe could likely thrive in the "common" quarters of Allanak or Tuluk without ever having an affilitation with the slums/rinth, it is likely difficult for them to build a prosperous and legal bussiness while living beside racist humans due to the unique elven persona. And, being mixed in with humanoids who obviously won't respect or nurture an elf's pride even with a considerable amount of effort, it would be tough for an elf to fit in with a dominantly human-populated area.

But, at the end of the day, a typical elf will always have a place and people to call their own and who will share in their troubles or joys, unlike a half-elf.
A half-elf on the other hand, either due to some unfortunate incident such as rape or a very bizzaar love affair, will typically never find or will be hard-pressed to find acceptance wherever they go. They will always be solitary figures at heart, despite a few days or weeks amongst so-called "friends".

Aside from that, I'll go to the issue of the seeming lack of elven clans. There is, in fact, many rinthi elven tribes that exist IG...they just don't exist in either the docs or are not coded. If even brief snippets of these c-elf clans were available for the playerbase to look at and use in backgrounds, and some more were coded, it would make playing a c-elf alittle more attractive than it might currently be when the PC elven pop. is more concentrated.
Here is only one admirable form of the imagination: the imagination that is so intense that it creates a new reality, that it makes things happen.  -   Sean O'Faolain

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Just a few notes, one people say there are not any real solid city elf tribes. Heh play one you will be surprised, I know this for a fact because my last two elves lived pretty good lives working with some of the tribes.

There might very well be city elf tribes.  Too bad they don't do any good to anyone if they are not advertised.  You can't join a tribe after you are in the game.  You are either born into a tribe or you are not.  If a click of players is running their own city tribe, great.  Little good that does anyone else.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"]And there are plenty of city elves, some just never actually go into the southern quarter so ya never see em, if anything that means they are being rp'd out correctly.

and

Quote from: "Kalden"There's plenty of elves around, you just don't tend to see them often. There's no real problem.

This is just plain silly.  They apparently have their hide and sneak skill permanently stuck in the on position then as they are doing such a good job that, at least in Allanak and the 'rinth, they have managed to go unnoticed by all, including other 'rinth elves.  Yes, there are a handful of other city elves playing.  They are no where near the number that should be, and the vast majority of them are loners or in some super secret city elf tribal click that onlh l33t RPers are aware of.

For the non-l33t RPers though, it would be very nice if elves started with an option of actually joining a tribal clan.  Bonus points if it is a tribe inside the commons.  Double the bonus points if there were two of them on adjacent streets.  

City elves need real support.  We have dozens of organizations for humans, a handful of organizations for desert elves, and perhaps one organization for 'rinth elves if Haruch-Kemad is still open.  I don't know about Tuluk, but Allanak sure as hell could use at least one (preferably two) elven tribe smack dab in the commoners quarters that doesn't require secret passwords to join.  I know, I know, Allanak is only for nobles, their aids, and half elves, but an elven tribe or two wouldn't kill anyone.

There are elven tribes in the 'rinth.  There should also be elven tribes outside of the 'rinth, because there is a large elven population that lives outside of the 'rinth.
Quote from: Vesperas...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

Heh, Not sure if you are but I think elves are super dangerous as it is, give them the option to just start in a coded clan instead of earning thier way into one of the coded ones (I know one that is coded and I would fear elves getting to start in it because I already fear pissing off on of those elves) Ya just gotta learn about em ic and you will change your mind. Will maybe learn how uber powerful they are right now also.
quote="Tisiphone"]Just don't expect him to NOT be upset with you for trying to steal his kidney with a sharp, pointy stick.[/quote]
The weak may inherit the earth, but they won't last two hours on Zalanathas

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Heh, Not sure if you are but I think elves are super dangerous as it is, give them the option to just start in a coded clan instead of earning thier way into one of the coded ones (I know one that is coded and I would fear elves getting to start in it because I already fear pissing off on of those elves) Ya just gotta learn about em ic and you will change your mind. Will maybe learn how uber powerful they are right now also.

I don't want an 'uber powerful' elf.  If I wanted power, I would go use my desert elf to train a few Mekilots and Silt Horrors into the Allanaki gates.  I want a realistic city elf.  A realistic elf is a tribal elf.  Make the tribe spend half their lives paying off the temlars just to exist in the commons for all I care, just build in something other then a super secret 'rinth elf tribe click.  One easily joinable elven tribe in the commoners would fulfill this need.  Make it two and you are golden.  Throw in a human tribe in the commons and you have just created a utopia.

If I wanted to play a complete social outcast, I would play a half-elf.  Elves are only social outcasts because of a complete lack of OOC support.

Elven tribes.  Outside the 'rinth.  Not inside the 'rinth.  Yes, there are elven tribes inside the 'rinth, but a tribe that is inside the 'rinth cannot be outside of the 'rinth because it is inside the 'rinth.
Not all Allanaki elves live in the 'rinth - maybe a third of them does at most.

There need to be elven tribes outside of the 'rinth, because not every elf is a 'rinthi elf.  Also, once there are more elves and elven options, there probably won't be a "supertribe" anymore that hoards nearly all elven players and, as a result, elven power.  If there were, say, two active (three PCs or more) elven tribes in the 'rinth and two active elven tribes outside the 'rinth, I think elves would be seeing a lot of awesome tribal grit, and everyone else would learn not to spit on elves.
People should -love- playing elves, and elves should be about more than just running from the templars.  There are roughly as many elves out there as there are humans, the fact that there are ten human PCs for every elf shows that something's wrong here.

Again, I repeat.  Elven tribes outside the 'rinth, that exist outside the 'rinth and work primarily outside of the 'rinth and consist primarily of non-'rinthi elves.  And there's no reason why anyone shouldn't be able to apply directly into an elven tribe.  Give elves a couple tribes, a couple more staffers, and things will be awesomized.
Quote from: Vesperas...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

QuoteFirst off, there's a variety of docs and previous posts that should have been looked at, or should be looked at, before going off on any presumptions. Here's a few

I did read all of those before posting; although, I do realize that doesn't make me an authority on the subject.  


QuoteOne easily joinable elven tribe in the commoners would fulfill this need. Make it two and you are golden. Throw in a human tribe in the commons and you have just created a utopia.

Yes!

For a player that doesn't have lots of OOC connections to an already existing elf tribe... how do you become a normal (tribal) city elf?  Finding out ICly doesn't make a lot of sense when you're supposed to be born into a tribe.
id my reputation preceed me, or was I too quick for it?

QuoteFor a player that doesn't have lots of OOC connections to an already existing elf tribe... how do you become a normal (tribal) city elf? Finding out ICly doesn't make a lot of sense when you're supposed to be born into a tribe.

Not quite sure what you mean there, but if you're talking about joining an elven tribe after already having your character existing, then I have heard of instances where a non-tribal c-elf was brought into a c-elf tribe. How you go about in doing that is mostly common sense I think, from what the docs suggest about elven tests. If you don't have the option to meet with a tribal c-elf, and you are considered a non-tribal from your background, I'm not quite sure other than to ask the mud. I think in nearly all cases, you'll need another pc elf to interact with.
Here is only one admirable form of the imagination: the imagination that is so intense that it creates a new reality, that it makes things happen.  -   Sean O'Faolain

My thoughts after reading this thread:

PC elves need more coded support in the cities.  The infrastructure exists without the city, but not within, except to a very limited extent.  Expand it.

Half-elves, if they stay true to the documentation, already have a very hard time of it, no matter how they're treated by others.