half-elf > elf?

[keithor]

city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders.

Very true!

but to me it just doesn't make sense to have city elves fulfilling all the different roles that normally only humans have accessible.

Well here's where we might be in disagreement.  Working in a noble house?  Yes, that should be human only.
Being able to live outside the 'rinth in an elven community?
I don't think this should be so hard to accomplish (requiring OOC contacts, interacting solely with VNPCs, etc...)  

If the docs suggest elves are only safe/at home in the rinth so be it!  I just didn't gather this to be the case when I read through them.

[Dalmeth]

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

From what I know, elves are not supposed to be all criminals.  They are supposed to be an independent, insular society with a disdain for outsiders along with an inclination to take advantage of them at every chance.  This does not mean every elf has only aspirations of breaking into people's houses or reaching into their pockets.

[Puppet]

Well, by sneaky and thieving I didn't mean that they were all "criminals". However, from my understanding, most elves do steal - and my definition of stealing is a very broad one, I don't even specifically mean material wealth - and most elves have ulterior motives if they're being nice to you which is why they are generally untrusted.

[Armaddict]

By the standards set by their human oppressers, all elves are, indeed, criminal, save for the very rare exceptions that would be looked on with disdain by their own people.

Quite simply, elven culture is different.  The same way romans saw romantic relations between men and small boys as acceptable, elves see the use of their intellect and cunning to benefit themselves and weaken their enemies as common sense.  Theft is a feat, something that would be almost like bragging rights when you get a good 'score' off of someone who was obviously weaker than they were (otherwise, they would have been caught).

I always kind of pictured elves stealing from each other as much too overplayed in the game, as is.  I think one elf stealing from another would be almost like a game between friends, and a show of superiority from others.  As in, friends may steal something from their buddy, then toss it out and grin and say, "Gotcha!", after which the victim would hurriedly take it back, secure it, and promise retribution.  An outsider stealing from them would not be something necessarily to be angry about, but rather incentive for them to get back at them to show that they are not so helpless, they are not inferior, to that person who took it.  In other words, not an anger deal, but a determination to be the most cunning deal.  Stealing from a very successful, established elf, I think, would be tempting them to prove their superiority in all of their capacity.  Those are the cases where death can and would occur.  Teach the whelp not to mess with his betters, and if he keeps doing it, kill it.  Kind of a 'noble caste' among elves, based on their wits and ability to apply them to put them into a favorable position.  Just my opinion and kind of a theory on how I think it would be, not saying this is how it is.  Staff clarification on just how this sort of thing is treated would be nice...the documentation is rather vague, which I think contributes to the badly played elves.

Humans think on a different basis.  Elves do this all the time because that's how they are.  So from a human standpoint, they're all not to be trusted because they're all just trying to get higher up in the social caste than you are, so that they have more power to exert.  Humans, I think, would be almost like -prey- to the average elf, due to their lack of awareness of how to be the most superior.  They're too trusting.  So...yes, most elves would be considered criminal.

To go back into the issue...this is why it is about the -roleplay- rather than the bonuses and setbacks.  You slip into a different mentality, and play it out to the best of your ability.  This particular mentality is very enjoyable for some, and not for others.  I, personally, love it.

While I -would- like to see some sort of legit elven community set up, someplace where those of the 'noble caste' of elves really do hold some sway, I don't think it's absolute necessity.  Elves already tend to stick together in cities, particularly against those of other races.  Just the beginning of a relationship...either they learn to truly trust each other (which doesn't happen often), or they set grounds on which to backstab that other guy and put them into a more powerful position.

If you're having a hard time finding elven rp, I don't think coded city tribes is the solution.  I think even with tribes set up, people would still not entirely enjoy the mentality and still not play the race as much, and those who did would likely have a higher death rate due to the true lack of trust.  This isn't a communal effort, it's every elf for themself, so that the race, as a whole, is constantly improving (going against each other for practice, so to speak.  Improving your peers through advancing yourself by manipulating them.  They make a mistake and learn from it.)  My suggestion to get more 'communal' elven rp going?  Make an elf.  Live the mentality.  Get yourself some power and influence.  Find promising elves over the time it takes, and -make relations with them-, keeping in mind that you're helping them, but only enough to improve your own situation.  Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

[Cyrian20]

If you're having a hard time finding elven rp, I don't think coded city tribes is the solution. I think even with tribes set up, people would still not entirely enjoy the mentality and still not play the race as much, and those who did would likely have a higher death rate due to the true lack of trust. This isn't a communal effort, it's every elf for themself, so that the race, as a whole, is constantly improving (going against each other for practice, so to speak. Improving your peers through advancing yourself by manipulating them. They make a mistake and learn from it.) My suggestion to get more 'communal' elven rp going? Make an elf. Live the mentality. Get yourself some power and influence. Find promising elves over the time it takes, and -make relations with them-, keeping in mind that you're helping them, but only enough to improve your own situation. Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

I had a comment on this entire thread and I was thinking of a way to put it into words. Then when I was ready I logged in and found Armaddit put it down the exact way I was thinking.

Coded tribes will lead to even lower quality of rp for elves because then your "shadowy twinks" have code behind them to protect them. Add to that it will be a hassle because the occasional elven group gets wiped out on occasion. And there is a reason for this. You get three or four elves together that rp properly and you wil be surprised how much the city bows down to them. I have seen it personally where a noble bites her tongue after a well known memeber of a certain crew talked back to her. Just because she knew who he was. Also knew she couldn't put a price on his head because he would hear about and have the assassin killed as soon as he agreed.

[keithor]

I agree with armaddict's post regarding elven mentality, especially about how elves view thieving within their community.  That's how I always pictured it anyway, almost like a game between friends.

 The one thing I'm not sure of is...

Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

 Now I believe you're talking about two elves who aren't in the same tribe, in which case I agree.  But in the case of elves who are in the same tribe, I would say backstabbing wouldn't be very prevelent.  At least not the fatal variety, maybe social backstabbing.

Coded tribes will lead to even lower quality of rp for elves because then your "shadowy twinks" have code behind them to protect them

Er.. not completely sure how to address this other than to say I disagree.  Strongly.  I just want some doc'd city elf clans to centralize the city elf population more easily, not a bunch of NPC thugs to protect fleeing criminals.  You want an elf handled? Pay off a templar.  Besides, I don't see how these tribes would produce more "shadowy twinks" than the rinth...  You might be right, I just don't understand your logic.

IMHO, with coded tribes you're more likely to see other elves being played "correctly" and thus be able to take an example.  If you've never really spent time with a "well-played" elf, how are you going to play one yourself?  The whole point of coded non-rinthi elf tribes is to GET AWAY from the shadowy twink mentality.  Give an opportunity for merchant/warrior/jewler/whatever elves to come out of the woodwork and have a (relatively) safe place to RP.

You get three or four elves together that rp properly and you wil be surprised how much the city bows down to them.

 I would be suprised to see that.  A group of elves to me is like a RL group of punk kids.  Yeah, you don't want to meet them in a dark alley, but in civilized areas they're just low-class kids and should be treated as such (watched carefully!).

Also knew she couldn't put a price on his head because he would hear about and have the assassin killed as soon as he agreed.

Isn't that what The Way is for?
I think it's likely the person playing the noble was rationilizing not killing that elf to preserve a bastion of elven RP.  But that's just a guess.

PS- Since this thread started I've seen a few elves in 'nak so maybe it's not so bad.  Though they were all (save one) in the rinth, which somewhat justifies my point.

[Arabian Nights]

I think it's likely the person playing the noble was rationilizing not killing that elf to preserve a bastion of elven RP. But that's just a guess.

I sincerely hope that wouldn't be the reason because if so, it's an OOC one.

[keithor]

I'm not saying I condone it, but people can and do rationalize OOC desires.  It's something I hope everyone tries to avoid, but it happens.

Same as when you're robbing someone and they RP it out nicely you might be more likely to let them live.  RP losing them in the crowd as they escape could be one way to do it IC.  (Just like being scared your assassin would be assassinated IMHO)

[Anonymous sharpear]

Hate to send this thread on an even further tangeant...but

I always kind of pictured elves stealing from each other as much too overplayed in the game, as is. I think one elf stealing from another would be almost like a game between friends, and a show of superiority from others. As in, friends may steal something from their buddy, then toss it out and grin and say, "Gotcha!", after which the victim would hurriedly take it back, secure it, and promise retribution. An outsider stealing from them would not be something necessarily to be angry about, but rather incentive for them to get back at them to show that they are not so helpless, they are not inferior, to that person who took it. In other words, not an anger deal, but a determination to be the most cunning deal. Stealing from a very successful, established elf, I think, would be tempting them to prove their superiority in all of their capacity. Those are the cases where death can and would occur. Teach the whelp not to mess with his betters, and if he keeps doing it, kill it. Kind of a 'noble caste' among elves, based on their wits and ability to apply them to put them into a favorable position.

We are talking about tribeless elves or inter-tribal elves right? According to the documentation, even city elves should be deathly loyal to the their tribes and whoever else has managed to gain their trust. There should not be any backstabbing or stealing of any sort from with in a tribe.

I think that the docs say this plainly.

A final note on thievery must be made: an elf would never steal from a tribemate! As mentioned above, an elf identifies entirely with their tribe, it would make no sense at all for them to steal from it. Theft from a tribemate would be considered an immense crime among elves.

As far as inter-tribal or tribeless elves, I could certainly see how Armaddict's scenario would work out.  I could even see how tribal elves would practice on each other in order to (please excuse my analogy) to help max their skills, but not in the sense that they would actually take and keep something from a tribemate. And it shouldn't give them any status inside the tribe.

[Armaddict]

You're not looking at it with common sense.  Of course they aren't going to do that shit to a tribe mate, unless there's some -enormous- grudge or plotline going on.  Like I said...to those who are close and well trusted, it's more like a friendly competition.  To those who are not, it's a test of ability, a sign of superiority.

I don't think most tribes have a whole thing of 'everyone is equal', either.  There -are- going to be people who you don't want to mess with in your own tribe, and there -are- going to be people higher in the hierarchy who insure the younger tribemates aren't fucking everything up.  Sometimes that takes force, sometimes it doesn't.  Granted, it will be much harder to get them to decide to use force, but when it's warranted, I'm sure it happens.  This isn't for sure, though.  Once again, just an opinion of mine.

Like I also said, they are going after their 'prey'.  People outside the tribe.  Humans.  Dwarves.  The ones who aren't as smart as you, and the ones who you can take advantage of to your benefit.  -Everyone- can see who's better at doing this, it's not like it's some rare and mysterious concept.  The ones who are better...will likely progress faster.

From the Helpfiles:

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

While there are still large amounts of tribal elves in the city, keep in mind there are also a large amount of -non- tribal elves.  Depending on how your character is in particular determines just who they'll backstab or not.  There was a very cool, very fun, and very intricate city elf tribe available to play for a good amount of time, and yet hardly anyone -ever- tried to play in it from what I was told.  There were very few.  Based on that, I'd say creating more tribes in the city for only what seems to be a small group that's interested would be a waste of time that could be spent on more important things.

Once the Haruch Kemad opens up again, I'm in, baby!  And if it thrives...maybe we'll see more.  Until then, do some ooc recruiting to form a tribe of elves, or start a gang IC (which -does- take considerably longer, due to the trust issues.  But the couple times I've done it, it's ended up in a blast).  I, however, don't think we should spend the time on it when things really -are- just fine at this point.