half-elf > elf?

[keithor]

I'm new, so forgive me for perhaps rehashing something that's been discussed before but this struck me as odd.  

 I've read numerous posts lamenting the current (large) number of HEs and I think I know why..

 All the people who like elven characters are ending up having to pick HEs if they want any kind of (positive) interaction.

Advantages of Half-Elfs over city Elf:
+ able to join a clan (besides the shady one, that's not for all elves)
+ can ride mounts (huge if you want a ranger/outdoorsy type w/o apping)
+ can leave cities (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life)
+ can have sdecs that pass for human (prevents mass-glaring)

Advs of Elf over HE:
+ aren't required to have a personality disorder (the inner-turmoil thing)
+ have a large VNPC elf population to hang with
+....er...um... they're taller  


 Now I realize I'm very new so my opinions are somewhat uninformed but for the above reasons I can see why HEs outnumber CEs by 2:1 when it should be the other way around.

 I believe that if you really want elves to be a major part of the player base that you need to give the players a reason to pick them.  
ATM I don't see any real reason a person would pick an elf except for RP reasons (that they want to explore mostly by themselves...).

 I don't want to be considered a ranter so I'll give some possible solutions:
A) Reduce HE endurance signifigantly because they're a mutant/hybrid race which would concievably lead to many defects.
B) Create one or two city elf tribes that can give the CEs a place to interact reasonably safely. (does this already exist? I haven't seen it)
C) Allow some way for CEs to travel (no wagon + no mount + no trust + no other elves + highly dangerous outside = stranded  :cry: )
D) Find some generally fulfilling niche for the elves to inhabit.  I personally have real trouble finding a non-rinther place for any elf, which is silly when they're supposed to be almost as populous as humans.


 So as responses to this post I'm looking for reasonable elf jobs/clans.
OR
 Other suggestions on how we can close the CE-HE gap.
OR
 Reasons elves are actually better than breeds and I've got it all wrong.


Thanks for reading, keep america literate  :wink:

[joyofdiscord]

You left off, from elf advantages:

* Uber running skills.
* Awesome stats. (inasmuch as stats matter)

And don't underestimate the difference that the two different mentalities make.  An elf can grow to trust someone else eventually, to a certain degree.  An elf can have a circle of pretty reliable friends. (Though I greatly prefer paranoia to rule their interactions for quite some time, until the trust and loyalty is built very strong.)  This isn't even mentioning the possibilities for belonging and interaction if you have PC tribemates.

A breed never really belongs.  Human-looking ones are usually found out eventually.  And even if you're a completely secret halfelf, if you're RPing that breed correctly, you will still find it very difficult to forge strong relationships.  At least I do.  The inner turmoil, the self-doubt, the drive for independence, the burning need to be accepted, they all have very real effects on your character's IC life, even if most all of it takes place in thinks.  

Your char tries to be the best friend he can.  He really really does, but somehow, even though that conflict is internal, it really does affect your relationships.  To understand this, you really have to play a secret half-elf and roleplay the conflict the best you can.  You will understand.  You just never have the friends you want.  Somehow, they never have the relationships your human chars have, even if everyone else thinks they are human.  The insecurity comes through.  The neediness comes through.  Even if no one knows you are a breed, somehow they know to keep you at a distance.


As for travelling, city elves are city elves.  They live in the city.  I've known some city elves ICly that have made some trips to other cities, but it is pretty seldom.  Being seldom, however, is what makes it special.  There's plenty to do within the city though.  I don't see this as a problem at all.  Many of my characters, even humans and half-elves, never leave the city.  Ever.  And they have absolutely thrill-packed lives.  I think it's realistic for city elves to stay put.  They can travel, but in more limited ways than the other races.  This ensures they only do it realistically and when necessary.

City elves have tribes.  Don't worry about this one.

I do kind of agree in the "more roles for non rinther elves" point.  I guess this could be a "change it IC" situation.  Make a non-rinther elf and find a way to make a living.  But I do think there could be systems in place to support it.  I'm not aware of any active tribes in Allanak proper.

Also, the roleplay is awesome as an elf.  Elves are, without a doubt, my favorite race to play.  The difficulties are mostly just part of the fun.

[Armaddict]

This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

[Rindan]

While I don't agree with all of what the parent poster has to say, I do agree with the general problem.  Right now, there are more half-elves then there are city elves in the game.  This is NOT how it should be.  Half-elves should be rare freaks that get treated worse then an elf.  Instead, it is the other way around.  People look at my elf character like they have never seen one, but seem to be completely content with chatting with a half-elf.  I do think that in large part this has a lot to do with code and organizational problems in game, and I do think that they should be addressed.

There are two problems with a city elf.  First, city elves can't leave the city at all.  City humans can jump on a kank and ride around all they want.  City elves on the other hand are very much taking their lives into their hand each time they leave the city.  I would like to see the coded distinction between city elves and desert elves blurred.  City elves should not suddenly have their legs fall off if they touch sand while desert elves can act like kanks and run merrily across the known world.  They are both supposed to be elves.  I would prefer to see city elves have a watered down version of a desert elf's ability to run without dropping dead after three rooms.  I would want to see this if for no other reason then it makes a Byn elf a viable character.  A mercenary that can't leave the city is pretty close to useless.

Second, city elf organizations are sorely lacking.  There are no active city elf tribes.  There are no city based clans with the limited exception of kinda-sorta-sometimes-Kurac that an elf can join.  While humans and even dwarves are given a pile of clans they can join with imm support, elves are pretty much left to their own devices.  This leaves a race that is deeply paranoid and tribal to their own devices.  Not surprising, this leads to very few elven PC made clans.  If you are a city elf PC, your options for organizations are the one or two criminal organizations that occasionally pop up and tend to get wiped out quickly and have little support, or you can by a Byner who isn't allowed on any mission more then a stones throw away from the city.

With these two facts in mind, it shouldn't come as much surprise that half-elves out number city elves.  Playing a city elf is simply very hard unless you are a very self motivated player or a loner who likes cities.  Even if you do manage to build something in game, you need to build it in an environment where arbitrary death is a dozen times more likely to befall you then a human trying to accomplish the same thing.  I can't even count how many times my city elf has been singled out by the militia to give information about another city elf or die.  Yeah, my elf probably knows the elf they are looking for, but it is only because there are a grand total of three of us in the entire city and when we find each other we sob with the joy of finding another elf.

Fix city elves so that their legs don't fall off the second they hit sand and build ANY kind of organizational support and I bet you will see a lot more elves.  Just one city elf tribe in the Allanaki commons would give a massive boost to elven RP.  I would merrily trade a noble house or an isolated clan for just one imm sponsored city elf tribe.

[proxie]

Advantages of Half-Elfs over city Elf:
+ able to join a clan (besides the shady one, that's not for all elves)
+ can ride mounts (huge if you want a ranger/outdoorsy type w/o apping)
+ can leave cities (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life)
+ can have sdecs that pass for human (prevents mass-glaring)

Advs of Elf over HE:
+ aren't required to have a personality disorder (the inner-turmoil thing)
+ have a large VNPC elf population to hang with
+....er...um... they're taller  

 I don't want to be considered a ranter so I'll give some possible solutions:
A) Reduce HE endurance signifigantly because they're a mutant/hybrid race which would concievably lead to many defects.
B) Create one or two city elf tribes that can give the CEs a place to interact reasonably safely. (does this already exist? I haven't seen it)
C) Allow some way for CEs to travel (no wagon + no mount + no trust + no other elves + highly dangerous outside = stranded  :cry: )
D) Find some generally fulfilling niche for the elves to inhabit.  I personally have real trouble finding a non-rinther place for any elf, which is silly when they're supposed to be almost as populous as humans.

Okay... You're wrong on a few points here, but a lot of it can be attributed to your newness.

From the top:
1) Clan joining. No, Half elves usually can't join clans, or if they do, they know from the getgo that they're not going to be respected or promoted as much as their pureblooded counterparts, even if they're better in all ways. And most if not all of the noble houses refuse to hire breeds.

2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places.

3) Can leave cities. (who wants to be stuck in one place for their whole life) City elves do, that's who. Their clan is there, their family, all their trade and swindling connections, they know where precisely to get the best deal on everything they need. The round ears and halfears will come to them if the elves need something. Why would they leave?

4) No, from what I've heard, breeds have to have something in their desc to prevent hiding as the other, without a special app anyway. (Could be wrong, obviously. That's a staff point, I'd say.) And assess -v will point out a breed in a crowd, and that gives the players the right to notice those slightly rounded ears, slanty eyes, and that they're half a head taller than a human of a comparable age.

5) I think you have a misconception that halfelves are these hugely wonderful mutant pcs. There's very little that's different in actuality, AND they have the insane discrimination and neurosis issues to deal with. Half elves strive for acceptance, and they will NEVER get it. It's almost like an underwritten dwarven focus that they can never achieve, so their lives are pretty bleak when that fact rears it's ugly head.

Your elf advantages are true, but I'd say give an elf a try, both a city elf and a desert elf when you know the game a bit better, and see what you come up with.  Those three things are pretty shallow and will be developed and added to with time and play within the elf culture.

To answer your questions/solutions:
A) I don't think endurance is that high, or it wasn't with the last breed I played.
B) Find out IC, pretty sure there are places for city elves to congregate and live. If there aren't, then create some, as a city elf. You'll learn a lot during the attempt.
C) Why would CE's want to travel? You're missing the point of being a CITY elf.
D) You should have trouble finding a non crime based place for any elf at least if you're looking in the human dominated areas of the city. They don't want to fit in with humans. Their main purpose in hiring on with a human based group would be to get access to the barracks and strip it bare some dark and stormy night after she's set fire to the clan's main compound.



Just my two 'sid, which I'm sure got intercepted on their way to the jar by a neck's long fingers.

Proxie

[Larrath]

I strongly agree with Rindan's point about making some spot for non-'rinthi elves to hang out.  It's needed badly.
I say, take those empty apartments people use for mudsex in Allanak and turn them into mini-tribal compounds.  Two elven tribes, two nearby streets, many agitated templars.

I don't think it's really possible to compare an elf to a half-elf like this, though.  Half-elves are played solo; they sometimes try to get into a group, but they never truly will and they know it, and even if by some crazy luck they DID get accepted, they won't be able to really feel that way.  And there's the mood swings.
Elves on the other hand are based on tribes.  It's cooperation, that's how elves -should- be.  To me, most of those solitary mass-pickpocketing elves aren't real elves at all.  An elf is thoroughly dedicated to his or her tribe.  They're flawed like anyone else, but they're dedicated and extremely trusting, and the mindset is us vs. them, which is quite special when considering that they're in a city filled with opportunists non-elves who'd kill their own family if they thought it would make a templar like them.
Playing an elf like a half-elf (that is, solitary) is in most cases just very silly as well as hard to do properly.

[Dracul]

I don't like that half elves get a boost with animals and mounts. Never have.

To me, outcasted by society just doens't justify. I bet amongst armageddon's  playerbase there are many unsociable and solitary people, but unless they have pets they have no more special bond to them (which a sociable person, such as a full human, would be just as likely to have). I myself had a dog but I didn't like her, I'm really unsociable as right now after my brother moved I would say I have one friend, and I'm not his best friend.
I don't like that at all, to me it just seems too much code, not even realistic.

Now, as for places for elves to hang out? The gaj, why not. Although the suggestion of some tribal compounds would be great, elves ARE tribal, and just because they're city elves doesn't make them not tribal, they're in city elf tribes, but as far as I know, they only coded tribes are rinthi based. Not good.

[Arabian Nights]

I don't like that half elves get a boost with animals and mounts. Never have.

Me either. It makes no logical sense to me.

[Forest Junkie]

I say let half-elves keep their buff perks. Just make them karma restricted to level 1 and move desert elves up to level 2. Voila.

[keithor]

2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

C) Why would CE's want to travel? You're missing the point of being a CITY elf.

I guess I have trouble with such a specific race-wide generalization.  I mean, if you're brought up by humans, why would have a problem with mounts?  I realize elves ARE NOT raised by humans, but you see my point? It seems more a CULTURAL issue, perfectly suited to desert elves.
In a similar vein, just because your ancestors decided to live in a city doesn't mean you will necesarily feel the same way.

D) You should have trouble finding a non crime based place for any elf at least if you're looking in the human dominated areas of the city

Do most elves live in the 'rinth? PCs yes, VNPCs?

This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

Not at all! Balance would mean the ideal is elf = half elf.  Whereas I'm suggesting that if the staff want very few half elves, and lots of elves, then elves should be BETTER than half elves from an OOC player convenience point of view.  Making it extremely OOC hard to create a city elf results in very few being created, no one wants to look twinkish for going against docs.  How do you role-play a tribal city elf with no documented tribe? (correct me if I'm wrong, didn't see any city-based tribes on the tribe page)

Rindan:

While I don't agree with all of what the parent poster has to say...

Maybe not but I agree with what you said  
I was hoping Rindan would post, his/her posts are flame free and well put.  Rindan addresses the central issue with the city elves as I see it.  They're expected to be tribal in nature but have no tribe to start in.  So basically you not only have to write your character, but a whole tribe.
In 1500 characters or less  :shock:

So, to sum up:
City elves need a clans too.  :!:
(and a lil outside movement would be icing)

[Maybe42or54]

2) Can ride mounts. Yeah, but why would an elf WANT to? It's a huge pride issue, not a matter of just being able to get places

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

Running on paved roads and hardpacked roads is a lot different then running on sand and loosely packed dirt.

[Larrath]

Half-elves have had affinity with mounts since Dark Sun, I believe.  Anyway, what elves need isn't an elf-only tavern or somewhere to hang out.  What elves need is a tribal house compound thing where they can hide from the Militia or Templarate or stash their stolen goods that isn't the 'rinth (because otherwise they can might as well make a 'rinthi elf).

It's not that far-fetched.  Allanak has plenty of alleys and collapsed buildings and people shady enough to have a little shop in the front and a compound in the back.

If most elves live in the 'rinth, then it's 60% at the very most.  This is simple to prove - the 'rinth is divided into two mostly-even sides - one largely elven and one largely human.  Elves are a close second as the most populous race in Zalanthas, closely following the humans.  This statement includes elven tribes, but it includes human tribes as well.  Now, if the 'rinth had two elves for every human there, the sides would be the Elfside and the Outside - that is, they'd take over completely.
Allanaki elven tribes do exist ICly, and some of them could have no relation to the 'rinth at all (or only to fence stolen goods, possibly).  Players need the ability to belong to these tribes, because only the rarest of the rare should start without a tribe and end without a tribe.

Seriously.  The existence of a coded tribe with players, for an elf, is just extremely important.  Some players are good enough to be able to make do realistically with a virtual tribe, but it can never fully replace it.

[Armaddict]

There needs to be an elven market that -isn't- entrenched in the deepest depths of the labyrinth, to go along with Larrath's input.

A front for the criminal activities that -that- particular group (the ones in the labyrinth) participate in.

The problem is that anytime elves start to get established, some templar who needs to make a name for themselves eradicates it, despite the fact that elves generally have plenty of what should protect them:  Coins.

People aren't bribeable enough, because coins aren't valuable enough.  *sigh*

[Cyrian20]

Just a few notes, one people say there are not any real solid city elf tribes. Heh play one you will be surprised, I know this for a fact becaue my last two elves lived pretty good lives working with some of the tribes.

And there are plenty of city elves, some just never actually go into the southern quarter so ya never see em, if anything that means they are being rp'd out correctly. And there are always spikes of one race over another for as long as I have played. I remember when there was like 8 dwarves sitting around every bar or when you had to bolt down your kank so some elf wouldn't steal it cause there was like 3 hidding in every tavern. Give it time you will start seeing the jump of h/e's drop pretty quickly

[Spoon]

Something interesting this post has brought up has got me thinking.

Are elves currently geared more towards being loner types than half-elves?

I haven't actually had the time to play a half-elf in my Arm career so far, but I've played quite a few elves, and many of them have been loner types. Not out of choice, but more because there aren't many PC groups, let alone elven PCs, for city elves to get involved with.

Anyone else find this?

[Kalden]

There's plenty of elves around, you just don't tend to see them often. There's no real problem.

The problem is that anytime elves start to get established, some templar who needs to make a name for themselves eradicates it, despite the fact that elves generally have plenty of what should protect them: Coins.

Pretty unfounded statement...elves tend to make lots of trouble for themselves and not use their coins right. Especially in the 'rinth.

There's more elves in the rinth than there are humans, most of the time. That's the best place to play an elf.

[Revelations]

I'm new, so forgive me for perhaps rehashing something that's been discussed before but this struck me as odd.

First off, there's a variety of docs and previous posts that should have been looked at, or should be looked at, before going off on any presumptions. Here's a few:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfelf.html
A Gentle Reminder Concerning Half-elves
Half Elf Race
Elves and the Southern Templarate
The half-elf gene pool
And this list continues...

With that aside, I think half-elves and elves currently are perfectly fine as they are codedly, and just may need abit of refreshing on roleplay aspects. As some have already mentioned, while it seems half-elves might be a better race to play than elves, it is hard to compare these two races and determine which is better or not, if the different aspects for each race is fully revealed.

On one hand there is the elven role, and from what this thread is gearing towards, it seems more like city-elf roleplay. C-elf roleplay is unique in that, although there aren't many coded clans that would accept a c-elf, they have have their own tribe and culture that is located within city walls. Is is partly due to this tribal mindset that places many elves in the rinthi parts of the Nak, and given their own specific plaza in Tuluk. While an elven tribe could likely thrive in the "common" quarters of Allanak or Tuluk without ever having an affilitation with the slums/rinth, it is likely difficult for them to build a prosperous and legal bussiness while living beside racist humans due to the unique elven persona. And, being mixed in with humanoids who obviously won't respect or nurture an elf's pride even with a considerable amount of effort, it would be tough for an elf to fit in with a dominantly human-populated area.

But, at the end of the day, a typical elf will always have a place and people to call their own and who will share in their troubles or joys, unlike a half-elf.
A half-elf on the other hand, either due to some unfortunate incident such as rape or a very bizzaar love affair, will typically never find or will be hard-pressed to find acceptance wherever they go. They will always be solitary figures at heart, despite a few days or weeks amongst so-called "friends".

Aside from that, I'll go to the issue of the seeming lack of elven clans. There is, in fact, many rinthi elven tribes that exist IG...they just don't exist in either the docs or are not coded. If even brief snippets of these c-elf clans were available for the playerbase to look at and use in backgrounds, and some more were coded, it would make playing a c-elf alittle more attractive than it might currently be when the PC elven pop. is more concentrated.

[Rindan]

Just a few notes, one people say there are not any real solid city elf tribes. Heh play one you will be surprised, I know this for a fact because my last two elves lived pretty good lives working with some of the tribes.

There might very well be city elf tribes.  Too bad they don't do any good to anyone if they are not advertised.  You can't join a tribe after you are in the game.  You are either born into a tribe or you are not.  If a click of players is running their own city tribe, great.  Little good that does anyone else.

]And there are plenty of city elves, some just never actually go into the southern quarter so ya never see em, if anything that means they are being rp'd out correctly.

and

There's plenty of elves around, you just don't tend to see them often. There's no real problem.

This is just plain silly.  They apparently have their hide and sneak skill permanently stuck in the on position then as they are doing such a good job that, at least in Allanak and the 'rinth, they have managed to go unnoticed by all, including other 'rinth elves.  Yes, there are a handful of other city elves playing.  They are no where near the number that should be, and the vast majority of them are loners or in some super secret city elf tribal click that onlh l33t RPers are aware of.

For the non-l33t RPers though, it would be very nice if elves started with an option of actually joining a tribal clan.  Bonus points if it is a tribe inside the commons.  Double the bonus points if there were two of them on adjacent streets.  

City elves need real support.  We have dozens of organizations for humans, a handful of organizations for desert elves, and perhaps one organization for 'rinth elves if Haruch-Kemad is still open.  I don't know about Tuluk, but Allanak sure as hell could use at least one (preferably two) elven tribe smack dab in the commoners quarters that doesn't require secret passwords to join.  I know, I know, Allanak is only for nobles, their aids, and half elves, but an elven tribe or two wouldn't kill anyone.

[Larrath]

There are elven tribes in the 'rinth.  There should also be elven tribes outside of the 'rinth, because there is a large elven population that lives outside of the 'rinth.

[Cyrian20]

Heh, Not sure if you are but I think elves are super dangerous as it is, give them the option to just start in a coded clan instead of earning thier way into one of the coded ones (I know one that is coded and I would fear elves getting to start in it because I already fear pissing off on of those elves) Ya just gotta learn about em ic and you will change your mind. Will maybe learn how uber powerful they are right now also.

[Rindan]

Heh, Not sure if you are but I think elves are super dangerous as it is, give them the option to just start in a coded clan instead of earning thier way into one of the coded ones (I know one that is coded and I would fear elves getting to start in it because I already fear pissing off on of those elves) Ya just gotta learn about em ic and you will change your mind. Will maybe learn how uber powerful they are right now also.

I don't want an 'uber powerful' elf.  If I wanted power, I would go use my desert elf to train a few Mekilots and Silt Horrors into the Allanaki gates.  I want a realistic city elf.  A realistic elf is a tribal elf.  Make the tribe spend half their lives paying off the temlars just to exist in the commons for all I care, just build in something other then a super secret 'rinth elf tribe click.  One easily joinable elven tribe in the commoners would fulfill this need.  Make it two and you are golden.  Throw in a human tribe in the commons and you have just created a utopia.

If I wanted to play a complete social outcast, I would play a half-elf.  Elves are only social outcasts because of a complete lack of OOC support.

[Larrath]

Elven tribes.  Outside the 'rinth.  Not inside the 'rinth.  Yes, there are elven tribes inside the 'rinth, but a tribe that is inside the 'rinth cannot be outside of the 'rinth because it is inside the 'rinth.
Not all Allanaki elves live in the 'rinth - maybe a third of them does at most.

There need to be elven tribes outside of the 'rinth, because not every elf is a 'rinthi elf.  Also, once there are more elves and elven options, there probably won't be a "supertribe" anymore that hoards nearly all elven players and, as a result, elven power.  If there were, say, two active (three PCs or more) elven tribes in the 'rinth and two active elven tribes outside the 'rinth, I think elves would be seeing a lot of awesome tribal grit, and everyone else would learn not to spit on elves.
People should -love- playing elves, and elves should be about more than just running from the templars.  There are roughly as many elves out there as there are humans, the fact that there are ten human PCs for every elf shows that something's wrong here.

Again, I repeat.  Elven tribes outside the 'rinth, that exist outside the 'rinth and work primarily outside of the 'rinth and consist primarily of non-'rinthi elves.  And there's no reason why anyone shouldn't be able to apply directly into an elven tribe.  Give elves a couple tribes, a couple more staffers, and things will be awesomized.

[keithor]

First off, there's a variety of docs and previous posts that should have been looked at, or should be looked at, before going off on any presumptions. Here's a few

I did read all of those before posting; although, I do realize that doesn't make me an authority on the subject.  

One easily joinable elven tribe in the commoners would fulfill this need. Make it two and you are golden. Throw in a human tribe in the commons and you have just created a utopia.

Yes!

For a player that doesn't have lots of OOC connections to an already existing elf tribe... how do you become a normal (tribal) city elf?  Finding out ICly doesn't make a lot of sense when you're supposed to be born into a tribe.

[Revelations]

For a player that doesn't have lots of OOC connections to an already existing elf tribe... how do you become a normal (tribal) city elf? Finding out ICly doesn't make a lot of sense when you're supposed to be born into a tribe.

Not quite sure what you mean there, but if you're talking about joining an elven tribe after already having your character existing, then I have heard of instances where a non-tribal c-elf was brought into a c-elf tribe. How you go about in doing that is mostly common sense I think, from what the docs suggest about elven tests. If you don't have the option to meet with a tribal c-elf, and you are considered a non-tribal from your background, I'm not quite sure other than to ask the mud. I think in nearly all cases, you'll need another pc elf to interact with.

[Delirium]

My thoughts after reading this thread:

PC elves need more coded support in the cities.  The infrastructure exists without the city, but not within, except to a very limited extent.  Expand it.

Half-elves, if they stay true to the documentation, already have a very hard time of it, no matter how they're treated by others.

[keithor]

Revelations,

I meant that if you want to make a non-rinthi city elf with a tribal background you either need to make an all-virtual tribe or have IC knowledge that's not in the docs.

I understand your point about there being PC tribes that I don't know about;  but why do all the PC elves have to start looking for a tribe at 40-50 years old? (ie: when the background ends and play begins).

It would make more sense for me to have tribal knowledge/membership before I start playing the character.


PS- I thought of a reason why elves wouldn't be able to ride that WASN'T cultural:  extra sensitive genitals?

[Angela Christine]

D'oh.

[Angela Christine]

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

Running on paved roads and hardpacked roads is a lot different then running on sand and loosely packed dirt.

The other thing about running through a city is crowds and people's stuff.  Dodging and weaving through a crowd, occasionally jumping over a cart or beggar, is going to be a different sort of movement than striding across open dunes.  Running through a crowded city without running into anything or anyone is quite a skill.  City elves are not weaker than desert elves, they have simply developed their running skills to be adapted to different terrain.


I think I've played a city elf just once, but my lack of elfiness has little to do with elves.

1.  Too many thieves.  I've played a couple thieves, but it isn't really my thing.  The problem with elves is that practically all of them are shady bastards.  Where is the fun in that?  

2.  The lack of other elves.  Most elves are part of a large, close-knit extended family (aka tribe) but that experience often isn't available to PC elves, so they are all orphaned exceptions to the rule.

3.  The other elves.  A poorly played human doesn't reflect on humans in general, but a poorly played elf does reflect on elves in general, and I've been annoyed by a lot of elves.  I have the idea that elves are often chosen by newbies who want to play sneaky bastards and then do it poorly, but I can't really think of any examples so that may be an unfounded prejudice.

4.  Elves in other settings.  In some games half the female characters are elves, because elves are pretty, a revolting trend that gave me a dislike of elves in general (if nymphs are available as a PC race there may be fewer female elves).  Effeminate bastards.

5.  The culture doesn't appeal to me.  A few times when I've been tempted to make an elf I realized it was because I wanted to make a character like a mage and wanted the code benefits of a race with high wisdom, not because I actually wanted to play an elf.  Since that would be the wrong reason to choose elf, I made them human instead.  The coded limitations have never discouraged me from playing an elf, but the coded benefits have almost tempted me into creating an elf on several occasions.




I really doubt that there are many elven character concepts are converted to half-elves at the last minute.   Half-elves are not uber, despite being numerous at times.  They aren't as smart or agile as an elf, nor as strong or healthy as a human.  Finding a good (ie two-room) bow can often be a pain in the ass with a half-elf or an elf, but most humans are strong enough to use the common bows.  Half-elves get a small boost to ride, but full elves actually get additional skills (though admittedly those are skills that their main guild choices often give them anyway).  A half-elf isn't just an elf with slightly better strength and a different social stigma, it is a completely different role playing experience.



Traveling in the wilderness on foot isn't too bad as long as you stick to the roads and move at a walking pace, so a mercenary company can adapt to an elven member just by taking the main roads rather than cutting cross-country.  But I wouldn't be adverse to seeing city elves fall somewhere between humans and desert elves when it comes to traveling on foot in the wilderness.  If it would cost a human 8 and a delf 4, split the difference and let a celf move for 6.  They wouldn't be able to compete with kanks, but NOTHING can compete with kanks when it comes to moving long distances, that is what kanks are best at.


I would also like to see city elf culture changed or clarified so that certain kinds of travel are not odd.  

--  It seems reasonable to me that some city based people (including elves) earn money by hunting, mining or scavenging in wilderness near their city.  An Allanak based elf probably shouldn't go up to Tuluk to gather wood, but mining obsidian, mining salt, hunting jozhals, collecting stones and other activities near the city make sense for city elves.  They have trouble getting regular jobs but they need to eat, I would expect those high risk but potentially high reward forms of self-employment to appeal to poor city elves.  We know that not all elves work primarily as thieves, those that work as crafters and merchants would need materials and it would make sense to have collectors in their own tribes rather than buying raw materials at inflated prices from outsiders.  Since they are city-based, their distance would be limited to areas where they could leave the city in the morning, do whatever they are doing, and make it back into the city before the gates close at night.  Basically a city elf would never want to be so far from the city that he couldn't make it back within an hour or two if there was trouble at home.

--  I believe that some elven merchants would work in the risky but lucrative inter-city trading market.  Buy low, sell high.  That means that they would travel between the cities, a large tribe might even have territory in more than one city.  They can still be dealing in illicit goods, a poison that is common in one area would be rare and exotic (and therefore more valuable) in another.

--  Get rid of their irrational dislike of wagons.  Paying to transport yourself in a wagon because you can't or don't want to walk is shameful, OK, but riding in a wagon because you are guarding the wagon or the cargo shouldn't be considered shameful.  You are standing in the wagon guarding stuff, whether the wagon moves or not isn't your problem.  Now if all the humans in your group were working as outriders outside the wagon honour would require that you also work as an outrider (outrunner?) but if all the humans et al are guarding the wagon from inside than you shouldn't be concerned about it either.  At times elven wagon-related prissiness looks like weakness, it looks like elves have some weird wagon phobia.  I would go even farther and say that mercantile elves would be OK with driving and owning wagons, as long as it is clear that the purpose of the wagon is for moving cargo efficiently, not for moving elves.  An elf wouldn't go joy-riding in a wagon, but a wagon is the best way to move cargo (much better than pack animals except in rough terrain) and owning a wagon is a status symbol.  It is a hut with wheels, a house that you can take with you when you migrate, what is not to love about that?

Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

I've only read the original poster's and Rindan's (first) post on this topic thus far, so I may be restating someone else's words here, but...

I think the original poster makes some very viable points, especially for a newbie.

I'd like to see city-elves enhanced as well, though still remaining within the boundaries of their racial concept.  But making changes to the game needs to be slow and gentle.  I can't stand when something is switched over night and we all have to pretend like things were always this way, when in fact they weren't.  Like Tuluk ALL OF A SUDDEN having this "ancient" custom behind tattoos, which, in actuality, popped up out of nowhere (but that's a different debate).

If a city elf is actually given the coded ability to move outside of the city-states it should be only so much to let them go to ... other cities!  That is where they belong, after all.  I would hate to see an increase in stamina (or similar adjustment) result in countless newbie city elf burglar/hunters roaming the wastes.  Though in my opinion city elves DO deserve a boost, and saying no because newbies may play them wrong suggests that we should make dwarves a karma-only race, since some newbie could play one wrong as well.

Furthermore, elves should NOT be given greater opportunity to join clans.  Saying that a large population of half-elves is unrealistic may be true, but so is a large population of elves in HUMAN clans.  Elves are tribal, they belong in a tribe.  This usually requires a special application.  If you can't wait, make a different race or use your own virtual background.  Elves who join HUMAN clans are a freak of nature amongst their elven peers.  Though possible, they are a rarity -- far more rare than a half-elf, I should think.  If you want to enhance the playing grounds for city-elves, open city elf tribes.  This could result in furthering the problem of too many clans, though...

Anyway.

[Halaster]

This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

That is the best answer I've seen, and was nearly exactly what I intended to say.  Guilds, races, etc. are not really even meant to be balanced.  They are merely different roles that are available to be played, just as one can play a slave or a templar.

[moab]

I think the elf / half-elf races per the documention and imped in game are just fine.

The failure is in the players not getting into the proper mindset.  I include myself in this catagory as well. Playing is not only about having fun, but learning about the nature of the class / race / <whatever> of the character you are playing and thus learning more about the game.

[keithor]

I was disappointed to see this:

Armaddict wrote:
This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

Then Halaster wrote:
That is the best answer I've seen, and was nearly exactly what I intended to say. Guilds, races, etc. are not really even meant to be balanced. They are merely different roles that are available to be played, just as one can play a slave or a templar.

The main problem that came up in this thread HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE.  The problem is that elves who are primarily tribal in the docs have no ability to start in a tribe without extra OOC support and IC knowledge that a newb doesn't have.   :cry:

I can understand why people might think balance was the issue (bad topic header for one) but the REAL problem is it's MUCH easier to make a HE that fits the docs than an elf. (assuming the elf hasn't been a life-long loner, which doesn't really fit for a tribal race)


I hope someone on staff read Rindan's replies on the matter because I think he illustrates it most clearly.


PS- My final post on the subject but I wanted to reiterate:
If you want more elves.
Don't make it hard (OOCly) to make a proper tribal city elf.  Does it make sense my elf grew up in a city but has NO KNOWLEDGE of any tribes held within?  Not to me... oh well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Indeed.  There is a real problem with city elves, and it has nothing to do with how strong their racial benefits are.  The problem is, it isn't very fun or rewarding to play one.

Most players seem to think that being an elf is the only justification one needs to target your character for PKing.  Even if they don't kill you at the drop of a hat, they still won't interact with you in any meaningful or interesting ways.  These problems don't have anything to do with the code, and everything to do with the playerbase getting it wrong, so to speak.

However, if elves appeared to be more of a power ICly, then perhaps people would be forced to accept them.  I think there should be at least as many city elf tribes as there are noble houses.

[JollyGreenGiant]

The more I read this thread, the more I was struck by some thoughts.  First, city elves are widely acknowledged as "hard to play".  They're second-class citizens, they're regarded by everyone as thieves and troublemakers, and people really shouldn't play one as their first character.  Noble Houses won't hire them.  This begs the question:

Do we really need city elves?

There's constant repression from city authorities (templarate and militia/Legion), lack of economic opportunity, and toss that onto a heavily tribal mentality, even in the city.  I tried desert elf and liked it, but city elves have no appeal to me.  I'll probably never get around to trying one, just because there are so many other things I'd rather play instead.  So really, would it be so terrible to eliminate city elves, rename desert elves to just 'elves' and keep them as a karma 1 race?

[Armaddict]

The main problem that came up in this thread HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE

Read the original post.  It is about balance.

The discussion about the city elf tribes came up later as a way to make elves a little more viable to play.

[joyofdiscord]

The more I read this thread, the more I was struck by some thoughts. First, city elves are widely acknowledged as "hard to play".

As are half-elves, dwarves, all sneaky classes, merchants, and magickers.  I.e. everything except human rangers and warriors.

They're second-class citizens, they're regarded by everyone as thieves and troublemakers.

These are called roleplay opportunities.

And people really shouldn't play one as their first character.

See above about everything except human rangers and warriors.

Noble Houses won't hire them.

Nor half-elves, nor hideous mutants.

There's constant repression from city authorities (templarate and militia/Legion), lack of economic opportunity, and toss that onto a heavily tribal mentality, even in the city.

Again, these are called roleplay opportunities.  And absolutely fantastic ones, as I tell you from personal experience.

I tried desert elf and liked it, but city elves have no appeal to me.  I'll probably never get around to trying one, just because there are so many other things I'd rather play instead.

"Also, I've never played a city elf and don't want to.  Therefore, they should be removed from the game."  :?

So really, would it be so terrible to eliminate city elves, rename desert elves to just 'elves' and keep them as a karma 1 race?

Yes.

[Revelations]

Well, on hte topic of taking c-elves out of the options, I think while the motivations of doing that are fine, the option should still be available for those who want to play c-elves. One advantage I can think of by removing c-elves from the options would be that it would concentrate move PCs into other races, but is that a good thing per say?

Anyways, I think if the city elven docs were freshened up, and there were more OOC documents on city elven tribes to choose from, maybe more coded tribes besides the HK that wasn't entirely criminally minded, that would be better. But like in most changes, getting more c-elf coded tribes has alot to do with PC choices and effort that is placed into it. Even if the tribes weren't coded, having a list of tribes to choose from would bring together more PC elves than if there wasn't a list. Similar to how d-elves work currently.

I think one major factor that prevents many from playing many c-elves is the limited scope of enjoyable RP with other PCs. In many ways, a c-elf can be a mirror of the current d-elves in that, they -should- be living in certain ghettos that has a PC elves to interact with, and not really need to travel outside that ghetto, but due to the lack of PC elves, this isn't really a favorable option. So, IMO, if more docs were available for rinthi and tuluki tribes, there might be a larger base for elven roleplay, and thus a larger elven population.

- Rev, who thinks there should be more docs on various city elven tribes.

[Jherlen]

I would be all for making elves a 1-karma race AND adding more coded city elf-tribes (one or two in both Allanak and Tuluk -- or alternately making the ones that do exist more widely publicized) in addition to the desert tribes.

This gets rid of the distinction where some elves are super-runners and the others can't touch sand, like Rindan said. I think it would also help to make the city elves that do exist a little better on the whole, rather than poorly played spam twink pickpockets.

City elf tribes would need to go into deserts to gather stuff, as AC said. Desert elves do sometimes spend time in cities, as was established on some other thread. I've always wondered why one flavor of elf got boosted stats and the other didn't. Couldn't the same reasons be applied to "Desert humans" (tribal humans who spend most of the time in the waste) vs. "city humans"?

Expanding support for elven city life and making all elves 1-karma seems like a good idea to me.

[joyofdiscord]

I would be all for making elves a 1-karma race AND adding more coded city elf-tribes (one or two in both Allanak and Tuluk -- or alternately making the ones that do exist more widely publicized) in addition to the desert tribes.
...
I think it would also help to make the city elves that do exist a little better on the whole, rather than poorly played spam twink pickpockets.

If there aren't enough city elf PCs around -now- for satisfying tribal roleplay, making them a karma race isn't going to help much.

And are you telling me that, now, on the whole, there are more spam twink pickpockets playing elf PCs than human PCs?  I've noticed quite the opposite.  Besides, spam twinks of -any- flavor tend to meet the same end.

This doesn't even begin to address the issue of those of us who (probably) got our first karma while playing an elf.

[Cyrian20]

This doesn't even begin to address the issue of those of us who (probably) got our first karma while playing an elf.

he has a good point. I earned my first from playing an elf, not my first elf mind you, he was a pickpocket twink, but a friend egan went over his thoughts on how to properly play an elf and my next one was many times better. Was a lot of fun once I got a crew up and running (player announcments is a good play to recruit for that) I promise that only a handful of pc's ever knew we existed also. we played our chars out correctly so no one knew there was a group of three pc elves running around

[Jherlen]

My point was that, like Rindan, I never really understood why desert elves are karma required and souped up, while city elves are not. If they're both tribal, which means some understanding of the mentality and roleplaying is necessary... why the distinction?

I guess that using the twinks as a rationale to do anything is backwards thinking, but yes, I have seen several poorly played ones. The vast majority of the city elves I've seen have been of the "Watch me be shady and sneak around 24/7 with my hood up stealing everthing. I'm so shady!"

You can get your first karma while playing a dwarf or a human or a half-elf, it doesn't mean that making elves a karma race would mean people have a harder time getting karma.

I dunno. I've never tried to play a city elf either, but it seems that they're hard to play and many aren't played well. Maybe making them a karma race is too much, but at least the elves you would see would be a little higher quality.

[keithor]

I know I said I wouldn't post here anymore... but I can't help myself  :oops:

Read the original post. It is about balance.

Again, I can see why people think that.  But it's really more about game design than balance.  If you want players to pick more elves, you need to give them a reason.  Giving them a slew of heavy race restrictions, and forcing them to be tribal without tribes...  I'm just not suprised at all the elf pop is low after rolling a few myself.

Hypothetical senario:
Two races, mooks and meeks.  The mooks are uncommon, but have lots of powers.  The meeks are very common, but much less powerful.  Which one do you think players are going to pick?  In an ideal universe they would bite the bullet and pick a meek, but is this realistic?  People are going to pick the one they as a player think is more fun, most likely the mook.

From a power perspective HEs and CEs are pretty much the same.  But from a social stigma (and race restriction) perspective elves seem to take the brunt, making them less fun (all IMO).  That being said I've played elves and enjoyed them, but it would make me much happier if they didn't all have to be city-stuck loners (for a loner, HE would be more appropriate).  I don't feel comfortable starting my own tribe of VNPCs and don't think I should have to.  

So, IMO, if more docs were available for rinthi and tuluki tribes, there might be a larger base for elven roleplay, and thus a larger elven population.

Change "rinthi" to "non-rinthi allanak" and I agree with you 200%.  You don't even need a lot of in-game areas/NPCs, just a blurb in the docs!

As are half-elves, dwarves, all sneaky classes, merchants, and magickers. I.e. everything except human rangers and warriors.

All those can clan, even HEs can join the Byn.
I guess the problem is all the non-rinthi allanak tribes are completely player created/maintained, making it hard to post documentation that's not viewed as too IC.
---
The problem I see is the disparity between the documentation and implementation of the city elven race, namely, lack of tribal support.

[Armaddict]

Uhm...people need incentive to play a different role-playing opportunity?  They need souped up, stronger characters to be able to experience the game through a different mentality?

Uhm.  No.

City elves are still by far my favorite race to play, whether in a tribe or more of a loner.

If you want to play an elf, play it.  If you don't, don't.  I don't think the immortals think there needs to be some sort of 'reward' for playing a race, so that more people play it.

[Revelations]

I agree there doesn't need to be any changes codedly, the races currently are perfectly fine. But, it can't hurt when there is more of a community of elves to interact with, and that can happen with more OOC info of various available c-elf tribes. Nothing is necessarily changing codedly to the race.

[jstorrie]

Yes to official city elf tribes.

No to changing half-elves, which are fine.

[keithor]

Armaddict wrote:

Uhm...people need incentive to play a different role-playing opportunity? They need souped up, stronger characters to be able to experience the game through a different mentality?

Uhm. No.

 I'm not sure if you really don't understand what I'm saying or just being argumentative.  There's a world of difference between "souped up, stronger characters" and having someone to rp with...  

 Do you have a problem with elves having documented city tribes?  If not, then we have no argument.

City elves are still by far my favorite race to play, whether in a tribe or more of a loner.

How exactly do you start them in a tribe?

If you want to play an elf, play it. If you don't, don't. I don't think the immortals think there needs to be some sort of 'reward' for playing a race, so that more people play it.

Everyone needs a reward for playing.  The reward is fun.  If one race is generally found more fun than another, more people will play it.
Simple no?

The problem is different people find different things fun.  If you really like rinth rats, then elf seems a perfect race for you.  Personally,  I would enjoy a broader spectrum of viable elf roles.

[Puppet]

I disagree.

I really like 'rinth rats, but I don't pick elf just because they are more statistically suited toward it. I don't pick elf because I don't want that kind of roleplay. I prefer playing humans, as a rule. What's wrong with a 'rinth rat human? Maybe a little less suited for the role (statistically)? So what? Humans aren't supposed to be as agile as elves, that's why I like them.

Edited to add: More superior code wise doesn't equal more fun to me.

[keithor]

Puppet,

I didn't mean to say most rinthi are elves.  I meant most city elves are rinthi  for lack of better options IMHO.

I don't pick elf because I don't want that kind of roleplay

What kind of roleplay is that exactly?  Being spit on by humans?  Not being able to leave/ride, or something else entirely? (ie: don't want to be prideful or a thief)  Thing is, I agree with you.  I think alot of others agree (or at least also avoid elves) because I don't see very many outside the rinth (certainly not half the population).

[Puppet]

Ah, sorry, I've had a nap now and understand what you're saying. (never post napless)

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

However, I could just not know what I'm talking about I'm still really new here. I see what you're saying, but to me it just doesn't make sense to have city elves fulfilling all the different roles that normally only humans have accessible. The race has limitations for a reason.

Edited for typos.

[Revelations]

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from -my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that, kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

The documents support this, I believe.

[keithor]

city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders.

Very true!

but to me it just doesn't make sense to have city elves fulfilling all the different roles that normally only humans have accessible.

Well here's where we might be in disagreement.  Working in a noble house?  Yes, that should be human only.
Being able to live outside the 'rinth in an elven community?
I don't think this should be so hard to accomplish (requiring OOC contacts, interacting solely with VNPCs, etc...)  

If the docs suggest elves are only safe/at home in the rinth so be it!  I just didn't gather this to be the case when I read through them.

[Dalmeth]

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

From what I know, elves are not supposed to be all criminals.  They are supposed to be an independent, insular society with a disdain for outsiders along with an inclination to take advantage of them at every chance.  This does not mean every elf has only aspirations of breaking into people's houses or reaching into their pockets.

[Puppet]

Well, by sneaky and thieving I didn't mean that they were all "criminals". However, from my understanding, most elves do steal - and my definition of stealing is a very broad one, I don't even specifically mean material wealth - and most elves have ulterior motives if they're being nice to you which is why they are generally untrusted.

[Armaddict]

By the standards set by their human oppressers, all elves are, indeed, criminal, save for the very rare exceptions that would be looked on with disdain by their own people.

Quite simply, elven culture is different.  The same way romans saw romantic relations between men and small boys as acceptable, elves see the use of their intellect and cunning to benefit themselves and weaken their enemies as common sense.  Theft is a feat, something that would be almost like bragging rights when you get a good 'score' off of someone who was obviously weaker than they were (otherwise, they would have been caught).

I always kind of pictured elves stealing from each other as much too overplayed in the game, as is.  I think one elf stealing from another would be almost like a game between friends, and a show of superiority from others.  As in, friends may steal something from their buddy, then toss it out and grin and say, "Gotcha!", after which the victim would hurriedly take it back, secure it, and promise retribution.  An outsider stealing from them would not be something necessarily to be angry about, but rather incentive for them to get back at them to show that they are not so helpless, they are not inferior, to that person who took it.  In other words, not an anger deal, but a determination to be the most cunning deal.  Stealing from a very successful, established elf, I think, would be tempting them to prove their superiority in all of their capacity.  Those are the cases where death can and would occur.  Teach the whelp not to mess with his betters, and if he keeps doing it, kill it.  Kind of a 'noble caste' among elves, based on their wits and ability to apply them to put them into a favorable position.  Just my opinion and kind of a theory on how I think it would be, not saying this is how it is.  Staff clarification on just how this sort of thing is treated would be nice...the documentation is rather vague, which I think contributes to the badly played elves.

Humans think on a different basis.  Elves do this all the time because that's how they are.  So from a human standpoint, they're all not to be trusted because they're all just trying to get higher up in the social caste than you are, so that they have more power to exert.  Humans, I think, would be almost like -prey- to the average elf, due to their lack of awareness of how to be the most superior.  They're too trusting.  So...yes, most elves would be considered criminal.

To go back into the issue...this is why it is about the -roleplay- rather than the bonuses and setbacks.  You slip into a different mentality, and play it out to the best of your ability.  This particular mentality is very enjoyable for some, and not for others.  I, personally, love it.

While I -would- like to see some sort of legit elven community set up, someplace where those of the 'noble caste' of elves really do hold some sway, I don't think it's absolute necessity.  Elves already tend to stick together in cities, particularly against those of other races.  Just the beginning of a relationship...either they learn to truly trust each other (which doesn't happen often), or they set grounds on which to backstab that other guy and put them into a more powerful position.

If you're having a hard time finding elven rp, I don't think coded city tribes is the solution.  I think even with tribes set up, people would still not entirely enjoy the mentality and still not play the race as much, and those who did would likely have a higher death rate due to the true lack of trust.  This isn't a communal effort, it's every elf for themself, so that the race, as a whole, is constantly improving (going against each other for practice, so to speak.  Improving your peers through advancing yourself by manipulating them.  They make a mistake and learn from it.)  My suggestion to get more 'communal' elven rp going?  Make an elf.  Live the mentality.  Get yourself some power and influence.  Find promising elves over the time it takes, and -make relations with them-, keeping in mind that you're helping them, but only enough to improve your own situation.  Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

[Cyrian20]

If you're having a hard time finding elven rp, I don't think coded city tribes is the solution. I think even with tribes set up, people would still not entirely enjoy the mentality and still not play the race as much, and those who did would likely have a higher death rate due to the true lack of trust. This isn't a communal effort, it's every elf for themself, so that the race, as a whole, is constantly improving (going against each other for practice, so to speak. Improving your peers through advancing yourself by manipulating them. They make a mistake and learn from it.) My suggestion to get more 'communal' elven rp going? Make an elf. Live the mentality. Get yourself some power and influence. Find promising elves over the time it takes, and -make relations with them-, keeping in mind that you're helping them, but only enough to improve your own situation. Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

I had a comment on this entire thread and I was thinking of a way to put it into words. Then when I was ready I logged in and found Armaddit put it down the exact way I was thinking.

Coded tribes will lead to even lower quality of rp for elves because then your "shadowy twinks" have code behind them to protect them. Add to that it will be a hassle because the occasional elven group gets wiped out on occasion. And there is a reason for this. You get three or four elves together that rp properly and you wil be surprised how much the city bows down to them. I have seen it personally where a noble bites her tongue after a well known memeber of a certain crew talked back to her. Just because she knew who he was. Also knew she couldn't put a price on his head because he would hear about and have the assassin killed as soon as he agreed.

[keithor]

I agree with armaddict's post regarding elven mentality, especially about how elves view thieving within their community.  That's how I always pictured it anyway, almost like a game between friends.

 The one thing I'm not sure of is...

Still have to keep them in check so that they can't backstab you and benefit from it.

 Now I believe you're talking about two elves who aren't in the same tribe, in which case I agree.  But in the case of elves who are in the same tribe, I would say backstabbing wouldn't be very prevelent.  At least not the fatal variety, maybe social backstabbing.

Coded tribes will lead to even lower quality of rp for elves because then your "shadowy twinks" have code behind them to protect them

Er.. not completely sure how to address this other than to say I disagree.  Strongly.  I just want some doc'd city elf clans to centralize the city elf population more easily, not a bunch of NPC thugs to protect fleeing criminals.  You want an elf handled? Pay off a templar.  Besides, I don't see how these tribes would produce more "shadowy twinks" than the rinth...  You might be right, I just don't understand your logic.

IMHO, with coded tribes you're more likely to see other elves being played "correctly" and thus be able to take an example.  If you've never really spent time with a "well-played" elf, how are you going to play one yourself?  The whole point of coded non-rinthi elf tribes is to GET AWAY from the shadowy twink mentality.  Give an opportunity for merchant/warrior/jewler/whatever elves to come out of the woodwork and have a (relatively) safe place to RP.

You get three or four elves together that rp properly and you wil be surprised how much the city bows down to them.

 I would be suprised to see that.  A group of elves to me is like a RL group of punk kids.  Yeah, you don't want to meet them in a dark alley, but in civilized areas they're just low-class kids and should be treated as such (watched carefully!).

Also knew she couldn't put a price on his head because he would hear about and have the assassin killed as soon as he agreed.

Isn't that what The Way is for?
I think it's likely the person playing the noble was rationilizing not killing that elf to preserve a bastion of elven RP.  But that's just a guess.

PS- Since this thread started I've seen a few elves in 'nak so maybe it's not so bad.  Though they were all (save one) in the rinth, which somewhat justifies my point.

[Arabian Nights]

I think it's likely the person playing the noble was rationilizing not killing that elf to preserve a bastion of elven RP. But that's just a guess.

I sincerely hope that wouldn't be the reason because if so, it's an OOC one.

[keithor]

I'm not saying I condone it, but people can and do rationalize OOC desires.  It's something I hope everyone tries to avoid, but it happens.

Same as when you're robbing someone and they RP it out nicely you might be more likely to let them live.  RP losing them in the crowd as they escape could be one way to do it IC.  (Just like being scared your assassin would be assassinated IMHO)

[Anonymous sharpear]

Hate to send this thread on an even further tangeant...but

I always kind of pictured elves stealing from each other as much too overplayed in the game, as is. I think one elf stealing from another would be almost like a game between friends, and a show of superiority from others. As in, friends may steal something from their buddy, then toss it out and grin and say, "Gotcha!", after which the victim would hurriedly take it back, secure it, and promise retribution. An outsider stealing from them would not be something necessarily to be angry about, but rather incentive for them to get back at them to show that they are not so helpless, they are not inferior, to that person who took it. In other words, not an anger deal, but a determination to be the most cunning deal. Stealing from a very successful, established elf, I think, would be tempting them to prove their superiority in all of their capacity. Those are the cases where death can and would occur. Teach the whelp not to mess with his betters, and if he keeps doing it, kill it. Kind of a 'noble caste' among elves, based on their wits and ability to apply them to put them into a favorable position.

We are talking about tribeless elves or inter-tribal elves right? According to the documentation, even city elves should be deathly loyal to the their tribes and whoever else has managed to gain their trust. There should not be any backstabbing or stealing of any sort from with in a tribe.

I think that the docs say this plainly.

A final note on thievery must be made: an elf would never steal from a tribemate! As mentioned above, an elf identifies entirely with their tribe, it would make no sense at all for them to steal from it. Theft from a tribemate would be considered an immense crime among elves.

As far as inter-tribal or tribeless elves, I could certainly see how Armaddict's scenario would work out.  I could even see how tribal elves would practice on each other in order to (please excuse my analogy) to help max their skills, but not in the sense that they would actually take and keep something from a tribemate. And it shouldn't give them any status inside the tribe.

[Armaddict]

You're not looking at it with common sense.  Of course they aren't going to do that shit to a tribe mate, unless there's some -enormous- grudge or plotline going on.  Like I said...to those who are close and well trusted, it's more like a friendly competition.  To those who are not, it's a test of ability, a sign of superiority.

I don't think most tribes have a whole thing of 'everyone is equal', either.  There -are- going to be people who you don't want to mess with in your own tribe, and there -are- going to be people higher in the hierarchy who insure the younger tribemates aren't fucking everything up.  Sometimes that takes force, sometimes it doesn't.  Granted, it will be much harder to get them to decide to use force, but when it's warranted, I'm sure it happens.  This isn't for sure, though.  Once again, just an opinion of mine.

Like I also said, they are going after their 'prey'.  People outside the tribe.  Humans.  Dwarves.  The ones who aren't as smart as you, and the ones who you can take advantage of to your benefit.  -Everyone- can see who's better at doing this, it's not like it's some rare and mysterious concept.  The ones who are better...will likely progress faster.

From the Helpfiles:

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

While there are still large amounts of tribal elves in the city, keep in mind there are also a large amount of -non- tribal elves.  Depending on how your character is in particular determines just who they'll backstab or not.  There was a very cool, very fun, and very intricate city elf tribe available to play for a good amount of time, and yet hardly anyone -ever- tried to play in it from what I was told.  There were very few.  Based on that, I'd say creating more tribes in the city for only what seems to be a small group that's interested would be a waste of time that could be spent on more important things.

Once the Haruch Kemad opens up again, I'm in, baby!  And if it thrives...maybe we'll see more.  Until then, do some ooc recruiting to form a tribe of elves, or start a gang IC (which -does- take considerably longer, due to the trust issues.  But the couple times I've done it, it's ended up in a blast).  I, however, don't think we should spend the time on it when things really -are- just fine at this point.