half-elf > elf?

[keithor]

Revelations,

I meant that if you want to make a non-rinthi city elf with a tribal background you either need to make an all-virtual tribe or have IC knowledge that's not in the docs.

I understand your point about there being PC tribes that I don't know about;  but why do all the PC elves have to start looking for a tribe at 40-50 years old? (ie: when the background ends and play begins).

It would make more sense for me to have tribal knowledge/membership before I start playing the character.


PS- I thought of a reason why elves wouldn't be able to ride that WASN'T cultural:  extra sensitive genitals?

[Angela Christine]

D'oh.

[Angela Christine]

I guess I'm a little confused as to why a city elf should be proud of running skills he doesn't possess... (although now I understand he runs well in cities, which in itself is a little odd. I expected all or nothing)

Running on paved roads and hardpacked roads is a lot different then running on sand and loosely packed dirt.

The other thing about running through a city is crowds and people's stuff.  Dodging and weaving through a crowd, occasionally jumping over a cart or beggar, is going to be a different sort of movement than striding across open dunes.  Running through a crowded city without running into anything or anyone is quite a skill.  City elves are not weaker than desert elves, they have simply developed their running skills to be adapted to different terrain.


I think I've played a city elf just once, but my lack of elfiness has little to do with elves.

1.  Too many thieves.  I've played a couple thieves, but it isn't really my thing.  The problem with elves is that practically all of them are shady bastards.  Where is the fun in that?  

2.  The lack of other elves.  Most elves are part of a large, close-knit extended family (aka tribe) but that experience often isn't available to PC elves, so they are all orphaned exceptions to the rule.

3.  The other elves.  A poorly played human doesn't reflect on humans in general, but a poorly played elf does reflect on elves in general, and I've been annoyed by a lot of elves.  I have the idea that elves are often chosen by newbies who want to play sneaky bastards and then do it poorly, but I can't really think of any examples so that may be an unfounded prejudice.

4.  Elves in other settings.  In some games half the female characters are elves, because elves are pretty, a revolting trend that gave me a dislike of elves in general (if nymphs are available as a PC race there may be fewer female elves).  Effeminate bastards.

5.  The culture doesn't appeal to me.  A few times when I've been tempted to make an elf I realized it was because I wanted to make a character like a mage and wanted the code benefits of a race with high wisdom, not because I actually wanted to play an elf.  Since that would be the wrong reason to choose elf, I made them human instead.  The coded limitations have never discouraged me from playing an elf, but the coded benefits have almost tempted me into creating an elf on several occasions.




I really doubt that there are many elven character concepts are converted to half-elves at the last minute.   Half-elves are not uber, despite being numerous at times.  They aren't as smart or agile as an elf, nor as strong or healthy as a human.  Finding a good (ie two-room) bow can often be a pain in the ass with a half-elf or an elf, but most humans are strong enough to use the common bows.  Half-elves get a small boost to ride, but full elves actually get additional skills (though admittedly those are skills that their main guild choices often give them anyway).  A half-elf isn't just an elf with slightly better strength and a different social stigma, it is a completely different role playing experience.



Traveling in the wilderness on foot isn't too bad as long as you stick to the roads and move at a walking pace, so a mercenary company can adapt to an elven member just by taking the main roads rather than cutting cross-country.  But I wouldn't be adverse to seeing city elves fall somewhere between humans and desert elves when it comes to traveling on foot in the wilderness.  If it would cost a human 8 and a delf 4, split the difference and let a celf move for 6.  They wouldn't be able to compete with kanks, but NOTHING can compete with kanks when it comes to moving long distances, that is what kanks are best at.


I would also like to see city elf culture changed or clarified so that certain kinds of travel are not odd.  

--  It seems reasonable to me that some city based people (including elves) earn money by hunting, mining or scavenging in wilderness near their city.  An Allanak based elf probably shouldn't go up to Tuluk to gather wood, but mining obsidian, mining salt, hunting jozhals, collecting stones and other activities near the city make sense for city elves.  They have trouble getting regular jobs but they need to eat, I would expect those high risk but potentially high reward forms of self-employment to appeal to poor city elves.  We know that not all elves work primarily as thieves, those that work as crafters and merchants would need materials and it would make sense to have collectors in their own tribes rather than buying raw materials at inflated prices from outsiders.  Since they are city-based, their distance would be limited to areas where they could leave the city in the morning, do whatever they are doing, and make it back into the city before the gates close at night.  Basically a city elf would never want to be so far from the city that he couldn't make it back within an hour or two if there was trouble at home.

--  I believe that some elven merchants would work in the risky but lucrative inter-city trading market.  Buy low, sell high.  That means that they would travel between the cities, a large tribe might even have territory in more than one city.  They can still be dealing in illicit goods, a poison that is common in one area would be rare and exotic (and therefore more valuable) in another.

--  Get rid of their irrational dislike of wagons.  Paying to transport yourself in a wagon because you can't or don't want to walk is shameful, OK, but riding in a wagon because you are guarding the wagon or the cargo shouldn't be considered shameful.  You are standing in the wagon guarding stuff, whether the wagon moves or not isn't your problem.  Now if all the humans in your group were working as outriders outside the wagon honour would require that you also work as an outrider (outrunner?) but if all the humans et al are guarding the wagon from inside than you shouldn't be concerned about it either.  At times elven wagon-related prissiness looks like weakness, it looks like elves have some weird wagon phobia.  I would go even farther and say that mercantile elves would be OK with driving and owning wagons, as long as it is clear that the purpose of the wagon is for moving cargo efficiently, not for moving elves.  An elf wouldn't go joy-riding in a wagon, but a wagon is the best way to move cargo (much better than pack animals except in rough terrain) and owning a wagon is a status symbol.  It is a hut with wheels, a house that you can take with you when you migrate, what is not to love about that?

Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

I've only read the original poster's and Rindan's (first) post on this topic thus far, so I may be restating someone else's words here, but...

I think the original poster makes some very viable points, especially for a newbie.

I'd like to see city-elves enhanced as well, though still remaining within the boundaries of their racial concept.  But making changes to the game needs to be slow and gentle.  I can't stand when something is switched over night and we all have to pretend like things were always this way, when in fact they weren't.  Like Tuluk ALL OF A SUDDEN having this "ancient" custom behind tattoos, which, in actuality, popped up out of nowhere (but that's a different debate).

If a city elf is actually given the coded ability to move outside of the city-states it should be only so much to let them go to ... other cities!  That is where they belong, after all.  I would hate to see an increase in stamina (or similar adjustment) result in countless newbie city elf burglar/hunters roaming the wastes.  Though in my opinion city elves DO deserve a boost, and saying no because newbies may play them wrong suggests that we should make dwarves a karma-only race, since some newbie could play one wrong as well.

Furthermore, elves should NOT be given greater opportunity to join clans.  Saying that a large population of half-elves is unrealistic may be true, but so is a large population of elves in HUMAN clans.  Elves are tribal, they belong in a tribe.  This usually requires a special application.  If you can't wait, make a different race or use your own virtual background.  Elves who join HUMAN clans are a freak of nature amongst their elven peers.  Though possible, they are a rarity -- far more rare than a half-elf, I should think.  If you want to enhance the playing grounds for city-elves, open city elf tribes.  This could result in furthering the problem of too many clans, though...

Anyway.

[Halaster]

This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

That is the best answer I've seen, and was nearly exactly what I intended to say.  Guilds, races, etc. are not really even meant to be balanced.  They are merely different roles that are available to be played, just as one can play a slave or a templar.

[moab]

I think the elf / half-elf races per the documention and imped in game are just fine.

The failure is in the players not getting into the proper mindset.  I include myself in this catagory as well. Playing is not only about having fun, but learning about the nature of the class / race / <whatever> of the character you are playing and thus learning more about the game.

[keithor]

I was disappointed to see this:

Armaddict wrote:
This is based on the mentality that races/classes require balance and equality, and leaves out the fact that they are different role-play experiences, which is the point of this game.

Then Halaster wrote:
That is the best answer I've seen, and was nearly exactly what I intended to say. Guilds, races, etc. are not really even meant to be balanced. They are merely different roles that are available to be played, just as one can play a slave or a templar.

The main problem that came up in this thread HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE.  The problem is that elves who are primarily tribal in the docs have no ability to start in a tribe without extra OOC support and IC knowledge that a newb doesn't have.   :cry:

I can understand why people might think balance was the issue (bad topic header for one) but the REAL problem is it's MUCH easier to make a HE that fits the docs than an elf. (assuming the elf hasn't been a life-long loner, which doesn't really fit for a tribal race)


I hope someone on staff read Rindan's replies on the matter because I think he illustrates it most clearly.


PS- My final post on the subject but I wanted to reiterate:
If you want more elves.
Don't make it hard (OOCly) to make a proper tribal city elf.  Does it make sense my elf grew up in a city but has NO KNOWLEDGE of any tribes held within?  Not to me... oh well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Indeed.  There is a real problem with city elves, and it has nothing to do with how strong their racial benefits are.  The problem is, it isn't very fun or rewarding to play one.

Most players seem to think that being an elf is the only justification one needs to target your character for PKing.  Even if they don't kill you at the drop of a hat, they still won't interact with you in any meaningful or interesting ways.  These problems don't have anything to do with the code, and everything to do with the playerbase getting it wrong, so to speak.

However, if elves appeared to be more of a power ICly, then perhaps people would be forced to accept them.  I think there should be at least as many city elf tribes as there are noble houses.

[JollyGreenGiant]

The more I read this thread, the more I was struck by some thoughts.  First, city elves are widely acknowledged as "hard to play".  They're second-class citizens, they're regarded by everyone as thieves and troublemakers, and people really shouldn't play one as their first character.  Noble Houses won't hire them.  This begs the question:

Do we really need city elves?

There's constant repression from city authorities (templarate and militia/Legion), lack of economic opportunity, and toss that onto a heavily tribal mentality, even in the city.  I tried desert elf and liked it, but city elves have no appeal to me.  I'll probably never get around to trying one, just because there are so many other things I'd rather play instead.  So really, would it be so terrible to eliminate city elves, rename desert elves to just 'elves' and keep them as a karma 1 race?

[Armaddict]

The main problem that came up in this thread HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE

Read the original post.  It is about balance.

The discussion about the city elf tribes came up later as a way to make elves a little more viable to play.

[joyofdiscord]

The more I read this thread, the more I was struck by some thoughts. First, city elves are widely acknowledged as "hard to play".

As are half-elves, dwarves, all sneaky classes, merchants, and magickers.  I.e. everything except human rangers and warriors.

They're second-class citizens, they're regarded by everyone as thieves and troublemakers.

These are called roleplay opportunities.

And people really shouldn't play one as their first character.

See above about everything except human rangers and warriors.

Noble Houses won't hire them.

Nor half-elves, nor hideous mutants.

There's constant repression from city authorities (templarate and militia/Legion), lack of economic opportunity, and toss that onto a heavily tribal mentality, even in the city.

Again, these are called roleplay opportunities.  And absolutely fantastic ones, as I tell you from personal experience.

I tried desert elf and liked it, but city elves have no appeal to me.  I'll probably never get around to trying one, just because there are so many other things I'd rather play instead.

"Also, I've never played a city elf and don't want to.  Therefore, they should be removed from the game."  :?

So really, would it be so terrible to eliminate city elves, rename desert elves to just 'elves' and keep them as a karma 1 race?

Yes.

[Revelations]

Well, on hte topic of taking c-elves out of the options, I think while the motivations of doing that are fine, the option should still be available for those who want to play c-elves. One advantage I can think of by removing c-elves from the options would be that it would concentrate move PCs into other races, but is that a good thing per say?

Anyways, I think if the city elven docs were freshened up, and there were more OOC documents on city elven tribes to choose from, maybe more coded tribes besides the HK that wasn't entirely criminally minded, that would be better. But like in most changes, getting more c-elf coded tribes has alot to do with PC choices and effort that is placed into it. Even if the tribes weren't coded, having a list of tribes to choose from would bring together more PC elves than if there wasn't a list. Similar to how d-elves work currently.

I think one major factor that prevents many from playing many c-elves is the limited scope of enjoyable RP with other PCs. In many ways, a c-elf can be a mirror of the current d-elves in that, they -should- be living in certain ghettos that has a PC elves to interact with, and not really need to travel outside that ghetto, but due to the lack of PC elves, this isn't really a favorable option. So, IMO, if more docs were available for rinthi and tuluki tribes, there might be a larger base for elven roleplay, and thus a larger elven population.

- Rev, who thinks there should be more docs on various city elven tribes.

[Jherlen]

I would be all for making elves a 1-karma race AND adding more coded city elf-tribes (one or two in both Allanak and Tuluk -- or alternately making the ones that do exist more widely publicized) in addition to the desert tribes.

This gets rid of the distinction where some elves are super-runners and the others can't touch sand, like Rindan said. I think it would also help to make the city elves that do exist a little better on the whole, rather than poorly played spam twink pickpockets.

City elf tribes would need to go into deserts to gather stuff, as AC said. Desert elves do sometimes spend time in cities, as was established on some other thread. I've always wondered why one flavor of elf got boosted stats and the other didn't. Couldn't the same reasons be applied to "Desert humans" (tribal humans who spend most of the time in the waste) vs. "city humans"?

Expanding support for elven city life and making all elves 1-karma seems like a good idea to me.

[joyofdiscord]

I would be all for making elves a 1-karma race AND adding more coded city elf-tribes (one or two in both Allanak and Tuluk -- or alternately making the ones that do exist more widely publicized) in addition to the desert tribes.
...
I think it would also help to make the city elves that do exist a little better on the whole, rather than poorly played spam twink pickpockets.

If there aren't enough city elf PCs around -now- for satisfying tribal roleplay, making them a karma race isn't going to help much.

And are you telling me that, now, on the whole, there are more spam twink pickpockets playing elf PCs than human PCs?  I've noticed quite the opposite.  Besides, spam twinks of -any- flavor tend to meet the same end.

This doesn't even begin to address the issue of those of us who (probably) got our first karma while playing an elf.

[Cyrian20]

This doesn't even begin to address the issue of those of us who (probably) got our first karma while playing an elf.

he has a good point. I earned my first from playing an elf, not my first elf mind you, he was a pickpocket twink, but a friend egan went over his thoughts on how to properly play an elf and my next one was many times better. Was a lot of fun once I got a crew up and running (player announcments is a good play to recruit for that) I promise that only a handful of pc's ever knew we existed also. we played our chars out correctly so no one knew there was a group of three pc elves running around

[Jherlen]

My point was that, like Rindan, I never really understood why desert elves are karma required and souped up, while city elves are not. If they're both tribal, which means some understanding of the mentality and roleplaying is necessary... why the distinction?

I guess that using the twinks as a rationale to do anything is backwards thinking, but yes, I have seen several poorly played ones. The vast majority of the city elves I've seen have been of the "Watch me be shady and sneak around 24/7 with my hood up stealing everthing. I'm so shady!"

You can get your first karma while playing a dwarf or a human or a half-elf, it doesn't mean that making elves a karma race would mean people have a harder time getting karma.

I dunno. I've never tried to play a city elf either, but it seems that they're hard to play and many aren't played well. Maybe making them a karma race is too much, but at least the elves you would see would be a little higher quality.

[keithor]

I know I said I wouldn't post here anymore... but I can't help myself  :oops:

Read the original post. It is about balance.

Again, I can see why people think that.  But it's really more about game design than balance.  If you want players to pick more elves, you need to give them a reason.  Giving them a slew of heavy race restrictions, and forcing them to be tribal without tribes...  I'm just not suprised at all the elf pop is low after rolling a few myself.

Hypothetical senario:
Two races, mooks and meeks.  The mooks are uncommon, but have lots of powers.  The meeks are very common, but much less powerful.  Which one do you think players are going to pick?  In an ideal universe they would bite the bullet and pick a meek, but is this realistic?  People are going to pick the one they as a player think is more fun, most likely the mook.

From a power perspective HEs and CEs are pretty much the same.  But from a social stigma (and race restriction) perspective elves seem to take the brunt, making them less fun (all IMO).  That being said I've played elves and enjoyed them, but it would make me much happier if they didn't all have to be city-stuck loners (for a loner, HE would be more appropriate).  I don't feel comfortable starting my own tribe of VNPCs and don't think I should have to.  

So, IMO, if more docs were available for rinthi and tuluki tribes, there might be a larger base for elven roleplay, and thus a larger elven population.

Change "rinthi" to "non-rinthi allanak" and I agree with you 200%.  You don't even need a lot of in-game areas/NPCs, just a blurb in the docs!

As are half-elves, dwarves, all sneaky classes, merchants, and magickers. I.e. everything except human rangers and warriors.

All those can clan, even HEs can join the Byn.
I guess the problem is all the non-rinthi allanak tribes are completely player created/maintained, making it hard to post documentation that's not viewed as too IC.
---
The problem I see is the disparity between the documentation and implementation of the city elven race, namely, lack of tribal support.

[Armaddict]

Uhm...people need incentive to play a different role-playing opportunity?  They need souped up, stronger characters to be able to experience the game through a different mentality?

Uhm.  No.

City elves are still by far my favorite race to play, whether in a tribe or more of a loner.

If you want to play an elf, play it.  If you don't, don't.  I don't think the immortals think there needs to be some sort of 'reward' for playing a race, so that more people play it.

[Revelations]

I agree there doesn't need to be any changes codedly, the races currently are perfectly fine. But, it can't hurt when there is more of a community of elves to interact with, and that can happen with more OOC info of various available c-elf tribes. Nothing is necessarily changing codedly to the race.

[jstorrie]

Yes to official city elf tribes.

No to changing half-elves, which are fine.

[keithor]

Armaddict wrote:

Uhm...people need incentive to play a different role-playing opportunity? They need souped up, stronger characters to be able to experience the game through a different mentality?

Uhm. No.

 I'm not sure if you really don't understand what I'm saying or just being argumentative.  There's a world of difference between "souped up, stronger characters" and having someone to rp with...  

 Do you have a problem with elves having documented city tribes?  If not, then we have no argument.

City elves are still by far my favorite race to play, whether in a tribe or more of a loner.

How exactly do you start them in a tribe?

If you want to play an elf, play it. If you don't, don't. I don't think the immortals think there needs to be some sort of 'reward' for playing a race, so that more people play it.

Everyone needs a reward for playing.  The reward is fun.  If one race is generally found more fun than another, more people will play it.
Simple no?

The problem is different people find different things fun.  If you really like rinth rats, then elf seems a perfect race for you.  Personally,  I would enjoy a broader spectrum of viable elf roles.

[Puppet]

I disagree.

I really like 'rinth rats, but I don't pick elf just because they are more statistically suited toward it. I don't pick elf because I don't want that kind of roleplay. I prefer playing humans, as a rule. What's wrong with a 'rinth rat human? Maybe a little less suited for the role (statistically)? So what? Humans aren't supposed to be as agile as elves, that's why I like them.

Edited to add: More superior code wise doesn't equal more fun to me.

[keithor]

Puppet,

I didn't mean to say most rinthi are elves.  I meant most city elves are rinthi  for lack of better options IMHO.

I don't pick elf because I don't want that kind of roleplay

What kind of roleplay is that exactly?  Being spit on by humans?  Not being able to leave/ride, or something else entirely? (ie: don't want to be prideful or a thief)  Thing is, I agree with you.  I think alot of others agree (or at least also avoid elves) because I don't see very many outside the rinth (certainly not half the population).

[Puppet]

Ah, sorry, I've had a nap now and understand what you're saying. (never post napless)

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

However, I could just not know what I'm talking about I'm still really new here. I see what you're saying, but to me it just doesn't make sense to have city elves fulfilling all the different roles that normally only humans have accessible. The race has limitations for a reason.

Edited for typos.

[Revelations]

The only problem I see with your argument is that (at least from -my point of view) city elves (especially in Allanak) are -supposed- to be sneaky, thieving, and all together untrusted by outsiders. That is just simply the role of elves in the city. I suppose that if you don't want that, kind of roleplay your option is to play human.

The documents support this, I believe.