Nenyuk withdrew money from my Account! I'll switch Banks!

[mansa]

Hi.

I was thinking.  Actually, I was promoting conversation in the IRC channel because I was bored.  But this is what was said.

Nenyuk should start charging intrest on the money that they hold.  Why?  Because they can. Because it's a way to make money.  Because nobody can stop them.  Because that's what merchant houses do.

As a side effect, I believe, and so does others, that this will promote people to spend their coins more, instead of saving up for a long long time.  And, it will make people carry around more coins on their person.  This will help those thieves who want to steal a couple coins off people, aswell as help those raiders who want to make a quick score.

And, for those 'clan' bank accounts, those could be excempt.  Make better use of the clan aspects that exist in game.

Perhaps it will make too many raiders in the game.  Because they can get really rich really quick.  Perhaps it will promote more player-killing now that there's more score involved.  Perhaps.

What do you have to say?

[Larrath]

This was my idea.
And naturally, I support it.  Interest could be done based on how much money is in the account.

Accounts with 500 'sids or less could have a 10-20% interest, because poor people don't tend to have a lot of political influence and ability to harm the bank.
Accounts with 501 to 3000 'sids could have a 5-10% interest, and accounts with over 3001 'sids could have 1-5% interest.

The amount of interest needed to be paid will be determined by the lowest amount of coins that your account had during the month, with a higher rate if this sum is 0 - charge for opening an account.

There could even be an accounting fee that will take 1% from the account whenever money is withdrawn or the balance is checked - depositing is free.

[Ghost]

Nah, charge the dudes over 3k 10% as well.  That dude has so much coin, he would not mind losing that amount for the protection of the coin.

And this is really a good idea.

[Kankman]

I think these ideas reflext a free market concept that wouldn't be so prevalent in Zalanthas.

[Cuusardo]

I'm sure Nenyuk doesn't do it, because they know that they're going to get all your money anyway after you die.  They're very patient.

[Anonymous]

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Nenyuk makes its money primarily by having access to your money.

Charging interest on that money will dissuade people with a lesser amount of coins from depositing it thereby lowering the total amount of cash Nenyuk has access to.

So for accounts whose balance is below a certain threshold I think charging interest would not be a good thing for Nenyuk to do.  Above that amount I think is fair.

[My 2 sids]

I like this.  However, I think the cap you have on funds are a bit too low.  Due to costs such as equipment, housing, water/food, etc. the average cost of living is far above 500 sids.  I'd put the cap around perhaps three thousand.  Any less than two thousand and PCs wouldn't be able to afford the basics of what is sold.

This has more ramifications that making Nenyuk rich though.  Politically none of the super powers would want any one individual getting too much money.  One individual having too much money could gain too much power.

For instance, let's say Nenyuk has an employee who gets to be wealthy enough to gain power and favors; who's to say that employee won't suddenly turn and do something against Nenyuk?!

[facehugger]

Yeah, charging interest is silly. That isn't how banks work.

Banks take all your money.

They take your money and use it in investments. In Nenyuk's case, it would make sense that they use their money to buy/renovate/restore property. Which they in turn rent out and make money from.

And perhaps they invest it in businesses, perhaps loans to successful independant merchants. If anything, they should be giving account holders interest, to encourage them to deposit more, which would give Nenyuk more capital to work with, thus making them more money.

Same concept as IRL.

[mansa]

Yes, but 'BANKS' are a silly concept in Zalanthas.


...
[edit]
...

To explain, because you can't read my mind:

To have a place where you can put anything and have it be protected 100% against anything besides a templar or the corporation itself, its completely against the 'theme' of Zalanthas, where it is the struggle and survival of the fittest in a harsh desert world.

You can deposit money in there and never have to worry about it.

You can wander the city and never worry about having coin stolen from you.

You can never have coin stolen from you.

You don't need to keep a safe place.  You don't need to keep identity cards.  You don't need to carry any travelling.  Coins -are- heavy.  You can simply ride up north and THEN withdraw your 40 000 coins to purchase half a wagon from a drunken Kadian.

And the money gets 'taken out' of the economy when you die.  And we all know that the Zalanthas economy is based off newbie coin.

...

By introducing a 'intrest' fee in the banking system, (Which we are stuck with.  We are not going to have it disappear.) it will bring about changes to the players of the game to promote a change to the world.  I want to be able to see players hide and horde their monies.  I want to see players distrust the corporations and systems that they hold true to.  I'm not talking about CHARACTERS, the change I want to see is in the PLAYER behind the CHARACTER.  

We all can trust the coded system of Nenyuk right now, because there's nothing that can be done to it, outside of immortal hands, that can screw us over with our hard earned coin.  We can use and abuse it to make so much money that is unheardof in the world of Zalanthas.

The world is changing.  People want a flux in the economy, which exists in game.  There is capitalism coded in the game right now.  We're stuck with it.  I want to modify it so that it is better for the theme, because I want the game to be more cool, more superawesome, and more realistic than it is right now.

[Anonymous]

Yes, but 'BANKS' are a silly concept in Zalanthas.

How so?

I'll guard your money and you get it guarded for free.  With or without your knowing it I'll use your money to build apartments and then charge rent on those apartments making more money.

Or are you saying it's too modern/civilized of a concept?

[Angela Christine]

I prefer transaction fees.  

From some of the room descriptions it is clear that Nenyuk does keep written accounts, so they have to have clercks or slaves that are at least semi-literate (they might not be able to read or write a novel, but they can keep track of names, numbers, and straightforward concepts).  Getting literate or semi-literate slaves, the special dispensations or licenses to have the literate or semi-literate clerks, and paying to have secure inspected lodgings for the very valuable and potentialy dangerous people is expensive.  Paper and parchment are fairly expensive too (although ICly they can probably be cleaned and re-used many times).  In short, licensing and record keeping is expensive.

A small, say 10 sid, withdrawl fee seems perfectly reasonable to me.  Not enough to discourage people from keeping their money in the bank, but perhaps enough to discourage people from generating undue paperwork by frivilously depositing and withdrawing money.


Angela Christine

[Northlander]

Yes, but 'BANKS' are a silly concept in Zalanthas.

How so?

I'll guard your money and you get it guarded for free.  With or without your knowing it I'll use your money to build apartments and then charge rent on those apartments making more money.

Or are you saying it's too modern/civilized of a concept?

Nenyuk's too all-knowing on too large a scale to feel unridiculous. I don't think interests are the solution, I think limiting the bank service to houses, individual nobles and rich that have approached an agent is.

Yes, if you're easily omniscient, it'd make freemarket sense to take cash in from the little guy and hand it all back when he asks, investing in the interim. But staying omniscient for what must mostly be petty change can't. And the idea of giving a commoner money, whether it was his in the first place or not, seems anyhow very off. An OOC convention more glaring than the Way and less useful, possibly harmful, to our game.

[Realedazed]

I prefer transaction fees.  
<snip>
Angela Christine

I was thinking the same.  If there was a 10 sid charge for withdrawing, maybe people would withdraw larger amounts in fewer sessions rather than withdrawing small amounts in tons of banking sessions.   Since these people are making larger withdraws to avoid the charges, they may have more coin on their person more often.  Raiders will be happy, thieves would be happy, and so on and so on. I hope that makes sense.

[Cuusardo]

For instance, let's say Nenyuk has an employee who gets to be wealthy enough to gain power and favors; who's to say that employee won't suddenly turn and do something against Nenyuk?!

Let them try.  That doesn't mean they will accomplish anything.

[Seeker]

My own idea was to limit access to the Nenyuk's ONLY in the city-state where you are a registered citizen.  Think about it.

This way uses already existing flags, is likely easily codeable, and solves a bunch of other problems, like believability.  It still encourages coins on the roadways and in tribals' and d-elf's pockets or camps and doesn't inconvience the high and mighty, who Nenyuk is so eager to please, in the slightest.

There is alot to recommend this idea, and I put it forward again.  Maybe in conjunction with AC's transaction fee.

Seeker

[jstorrie]

How often do people in Zalanthas die?

Nenyuk makes a killing (ha-ha) just off reclaiming the accounts of the dead. There is, after all, no provision for handing that money down to heirs.

Nenyuk also makes a lot of money lending huge sums out to houses and templarates for large projects, as well as by spending the money it has in the bank on real estate and other investments that show large returns.

A little digging in the documentation and previous posts on this matter confirms it. If anything, shooing away the short-lived commoner and his idle 'sid would hurt the House. Why bother with interest? There are no rival banks in Zalanthas. Nenyuk is insanely profitable and has no reason to rock the sand-skimmer here.

[Swordsman]

This discussion seems to be going along a very OOC line of thought. Even though Arm is a low-fantasy setting, it is still a fantasy setting. If we exclude the fantasy elements, then sure, the concept of a worldwide bank seems unrealistic. But what if we include them, since they are in the game? Conspiracy theorists, over to you ...

Swordsman

[mansa]

A little digging in the documentation and previous posts on this matter confirms it. If anything, shooing away the short-lived commoner and his idle 'sid would hurt the House. Why bother with interest? There are no rival banks in Zalanthas. Nenyuk is insanely profitable and has no reason to rock the sand-skimmer here.

Because ALL the monies in the game are controlled by the Merchant Houses.  They control everything.  There is very little money in commoners.  They make up 6.98% of the overall wealth of the world.  The commoners are, in compairison to the real world, Kenya.  You don't care what happens to them.  They have no power.  They are so far away from you.  You don't care about the commoners.  You don't care about the commoners.  You don't care about the commoners.  You squeeze and squeeze and squeeze until they die, because you don't care.  You squeeze and squeeze and squeeze because you can.  This isn't a capitalistic society eventhough we try so hard to make it so.  This is Zalanthas.


What I hope to accomplish with this change I've already stated here.  I have more reasons for the change, which revolves around when you die.  Codewise, your money disappears from the game economy.  If there was a smart killer, he would kill you, then assume your identity and then try and make a withdraw of all your saved coins.  That can't happen right now, because of the code.  It may, with staff intervention, but what I'm proposing will eliminate the staff having to hand-feed us.  


Why will it change that?  Because we as players CANNOT stand to lose some money.  We live in Western Society.  We LOVE money.  We cry when we lose it.  And if there's some INTREST charge, we'll stop using it.  We'll keep out life savings on our persons, which will be ripe for the pickings.Will the game stop using it?  No!  Only the 'special' characters that we play.  We don't play nearly 0.13% of the total population of the world.  The rest of the virtual game will use Nenyuk faithfully, because that's all there is, and that's all they got.  Why must Nenyuk perfectly accept your money, hold it, give it back, and never lose 1 coin, no matter where or who you are?

Seeker's idea here is cool, too: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=148965#148965

AC's Withdraw Transaction Fee might be something to put into game:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=148957#148957


Northlander's post is also very cool, and I think might work: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=148958#148958

[Swordsman]

mansa: "Because ALL the monies in the game are controlled by the Merchant Houses. They control everything. There is very little money in commoners. They make up 6.98% of the overall wealth of the world. The commoners are, in compairison to the real world, Kenya. You don't care what happens to them."

With no disrespect to Kenya or Kenyans, Kenya is only one small country in a large world. The commoners of Zalanthas are a very large part of the population, so I don't think the comparison is accurate. Even if Zalanthan commoners might not have much money, individually, they will have a lot of money all together. A little money times a lot of people equals a lot of money.

While the Merchant Houses would make up a large part of the economy, business between commoners also happens, and I would assume happens a lot. Where do commoners get everyday water, food, clothing, tools, and other necessities? Certainly not from Kadius, Kurac, Nenyuk, or Salarr. From the other side, think of the two main governments and how much they would make on taxes and providing water. I don't think that the Merchant Houses control all (or essentially all) of the money in the game, and I do think that the commoners would 'control' a significant sum when considered together.

From my point of view, I'd think that House Nenyuk would care about commoners and their money.

Swordsman

Adding to clarify in response to Larrath's post just below: When I wrote about supplies above (water, food, etc.), I was writing about everyday supplies and basic necessities, as I noted. For most commoners, their water, food, and clothing would probably be their main expenses. Even if we think about 'adventurer' PCs, they'd still spend much more on water and food than anything else, over a lifetime. For most people, everyday water, food, clothing, and (non-weapon) tools wouldn't come from the Merchant Houses. Maybe as once-in-a-while luxuries, certainly. (As far as I'm aware, Kadius only really deals in high-class, luxury clothing.) Just a brief note.

[Larrath]

First of all, about supplies:
Clothes are most often bought from Kadius.  Salarr makes most weapons, armors and ranged weapons that people use to hunt.  Kurac makes supplies needed for going out to the desert, as well as spice.  Both Kadius and Kurac own taverns, and pretty much every single thing in Luir's Outpost goes through Kurac.
The governments do supply the water, though independent water sellers do exist.

Now, the fact is that Nenyuk gets all your 'sid when you die, and everyone dies in the end.  However, people don't simply hoard their money.  Commoners are particularly prone to put in 50 'sid one day and take out 60 in the other, and end up with 20 'sid in their account when they die.  Instead, Nenyuk could take 5 'sid for each transaction this commoner makes and end up taking 40 'sids by the time he dies.

And if the commoners don't like it, they don't have to use Nenyuk.  But if they give Nenyuk trouble, a few Nenyuki thugs might visit their apartment some night and tie all their shoes together so tightly that it will take them hours to untie them.  Those bastards.

[HardCarbon]

Most Commoners probably don't use the bank at all... 'pc' commoners are probably fantasicly wealth by any sane standerds...


As for the rich commoners...  well you don't want to piss off the Nenyuk at all either...  bank error are such a tragedy...

First of all, about supplies:
Clothes are most often bought from Kadius.  Salarr makes most weapons, armors and ranged weapons that people use to hunt.  Kurac makes supplies needed for going out to the desert, as well as spice.  Both Kadius and Kurac own taverns, and pretty much every single thing in Luir's Outpost goes through Kurac.
The governments do supply the water, though independent water sellers do exist.

Now, the fact is that Nenyuk gets all your 'sid when you die, and everyone dies in the end.  However, people don't simply hoard their money.  Commoners are particularly prone to put in 50 'sid one day and take out 60 in the other, and end up with 20 'sid in their account when they die.  Instead, Nenyuk could take 5 'sid for each transaction this commoner makes and end up taking 40 'sids by the time he dies.

And if the commoners don't like it, they don't have to use Nenyuk.  But if they give Nenyuk trouble, a few Nenyuki thugs might visit their apartment some night and tie all their shoes together so tightly that it will take them hours to untie them.  Those bastards.

[Eternal]

I could just imagine:

The Worthless Commoner exclaims, in sirihish:
"Lord Templar, a thousand pardons, but the Nenyuki have stolen my 1300 coins and won't give it back!"

Lord Templar Hard Nose says to The Fattened Merchant, in sirihish:
"Is this true?"

The Fattened Merchant says, in sirihish:
"Bank error in your favor m'lord."

Lord Templar Hard Nose collects 1000 coins.

Lord Templar Hard Nose points at The Worthless Commoner, motioning to nearby soldiers...

[jcarter]

I think this would spell trouble for Nenyuk. Why? Someone will eventually get pissed off and open up their -own- banks. Sure, Nenyuk could squash them, but then they appear to be not only strong-arming, but also have to spend money on hiring thugs and so forth.

If Nenyuk misses the competition and they begin to grow stronger, well, then it's going to start becoming a war. At this point it's already most likely costing Nenyuk more than its worth to fight it. Future groups will repeat the past and learn from the failure's mistakes, and -eventually- Nenyuk will be toppled.

If Nenyuk still thought this was a good idea even with the above scenario laid out, they would have to consider the reaction from commoners. After all these years, instituting a fee like that is going to piss off a lot of people. While they may just be commoners, they're all around. They work at the banks. They keep an eye over the vaults of money. They take messages and work as aides for the Nenyuk. But let's factor that out, and say that Nenyuk personnel are excluded from the fee. Try walking down a street when a city full of people is pissed off at your family's business practices.

Miltia members are pissed off. The barkeeper at your favorite tavern is pissed off. Minor merchants are pissed off. Mercenaries are pissed off. Many, many people are pissed off at you.

I think this would fall under the 'Bad Idea' category for Nenyuk.

[Jherlen]

The theory behind the idea has been debated a lot, I want to bring up something from the practical side:

Mansa is only partly right when he says people will be carrying large amounts of coin on their persons. They might. What's far more likely to happen is that people with resources (coincidentally these are also the ones with the most money!) will start keeping their coins in the safest place they can, which I expect will their clan hqs more often than not.

Why would Lord Fancypants deposit his 100000 coin stipend in the bank where he'll lose a fifth or a tenth or it just to touch it? He'll keep that heap of sid in his room for his silk-clad concubines to count for him, where it's safe behind his insanely-hard-to-pick lock on his bedroom door, which is watched over by his guards, and his Estate's guards, and his pc, npc, and vnpc servants.

On the other end of the spectrum, Joe House Guard will keep his life savings in a small pouch in his locker in his house barracks. Why? He doesn't get paid enough for some fat Nenyuki to line his wallet on Joe's hard work. Joe would rather keep his money in the barracks, where he is most of the time anyway, and where his other guards (again, pc, npc, and vnpc) will notice if anyone starts going through his stuff.

This seems a bit more Zalanthan than a bank where they instantly know who you are and nothing ever happens to your money, but since Nenyuk already has that now, and they make a bunch of sid every time some random independent hunter gets eaten by a tembo, I don't think they'd be smart to change.

[Larrath]

Gamewise, I'd rather have a huge amount of 'sids waiting in a second-floor bedroom behind five locked gates and eight uber NPCs rather than have the same amount of 'sids lying in a semi-virtual state where they're absolutely impossible to touch; or at least, impossible to touch without having to go straight through a House whose pretty much biggest concern is to keep the money safe using every mean that their nigh-endless funds could buy over a few hundred years.

Now again, the rich will pay small interest so it won't bother them as much - why should a noble care if his 30,000 account is turned to 29,700?  He can spend more just on a hat he'll only wear once.

And again, again, Nenyuk already has the money you leave after you die.  The problem is the money that you spend and withdraw between starting your account and dying - a sizeable amount usually, especially with NPCs who live far, far longer than PCs tend to.

I wouldn't even mind if this was added in a revisionistic manner - Nenyuk now charges interest and it's always been like this.  Tell me that this makes less sense than what we have now - a system where you can take 30k 'sid, put them in the Nenyuk for five years in Allanak, then go to Tuluk and take them all out, and then die without leaving the bank a single coin to be made.