Let's blow up the world.

[Anonymous]

Tuluk.

Allanak.

One of 'em's gotsta go.

Seriously, hear me out folks. If, during a major HRPT, a catastrophic event occured in either Tuluk or Allanak which caused the city to become utterly destroyed, the game as a whole would become significantly "cooler".

Destroying one city-state while allowing the other one to grow with added features, clans, rooms, and plots will consolidate the playerbase and create more tension and interaction between players, due to the limited options of where they can live.

I don't care which city goes. Hear me out nessalin; just blow one of those boogers up!

What say you?

[Foamy007]

Nope, even though I would like Tuluk to revert back to tribes. I still prefer the conflict between the two city states at the moment. As well as the presures it puts on the other factions out there to decide and such.

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree.  Consolidating city-based roles would definitely foster more plots and roleplay.

[elvenchipmunk]

Nope, even though I would like Tuluk to revert back to tribes. I still prefer the conflict between the two city states at the moment. As well as the presures it puts on the other factions out there to decide and such.

Um, what conflict? I could be wrong, but I've not seen any conflict in months.

I'm all for blowing up a city. And if that's too drastic, then atleast blow half of one up. I think it would -really- be neat for all of us who haven't seen any big battles between the two city-states to finally see one! And then it would lead to neat RP. I am definitely all for some major hrpt's happening here.

[Penumbra]

I think blowing up a city is a bit too harsh, maybe just a war between north and south. Parts of the cities would be busted, and hostile NPC raiders and soldiers would become a common occurence.

But seriously, Allanak would have to win.

[Kalden]

What conflict indeed.

Blow up Tuluk.

[Rhyden]

Blow up Tuluk.

[Bogre]

Lets not and say we did.

[Marauder Moe]

Damnit, you people are going to get Tuluk demolished before I even get to play a character there, aren't you?

[amoeba]

Okay I have to ask this: *sarcastic* Is everyone bored or what?

This trend is disturbing. so far.

-- Blow up Tuluk
-- Blow up Tuluk or Allanak
-- Close some noble houses
-- Close all noble houses
-- Close some merchant houses
-- Make half-elf a karma race
-- Close off Sorcerers
-- Restrict the number of magickers
-- Even a while back, and this boggled my mind .. mandatory week long waiting period between apps.
-- I'm sure there are more along these lines.

Am I crazy or does this seem like a trend?  What ever happened to creativity? Inovation?

[Moofassa]

There is conflict. Definetly conflict. Nose around, you'll find it. Just because something isn't obvious and out there, doesn't mean it's not there.

The game would lose a massive portion of it's roleplaying possibilites if one of the cities were taken away. You're all on crack. And it's not the good stuff.

[Anonymous]

What ever happened to creativity? Inovation?

You can't innovate city PCs into a single location, which is the point.  Concentration of city PCs is an interesting prospect to me because I've always found the roleplay to be better when you have a greater number of peers on your social level whether noble or merchant or guard or indy.

To be fair 'blowing up Tuluk' and 'closing down Tuluki nobility' and some of those other suggestions in your list are really pretty much the same sentiment.

[bloodfromstone]

I just had a great idea. Instead of blowing up Tuluk, we could have it burn down in a natural fire. Take that, northern scum!

[Foamy007]

As Moofassa said dig around a little bit. Stop getting lazy and expecting things to happen on their own thanks to the IMMS ther are a reason they dont get so invovled. Hello you are the players, go down to nak and shout that Tektolnes is an ass and then when a templar catchs you and drags you off tell him that he should know that tuluk is going to crush his balls with a steel hammer for this. Start crap on your own ppl.

Gosh.

[RunningMountain]

Tuluk got blown up once before.
Allanak: 1
Tuluk: 0

I think round 2 with Tek's magickers would be fun though.

[Angela Christine]

I would still like to see an "official" cease-fire worked out between the two cities, you know, with written documents and diplomatic envoys and stuff.  That wouldn't prevent "unofficial" incursions, scirmishes, raids, assassinations and boarder disputes.   They could still happen just as often as they do now, but you'd probably take your men out of uniform to do them.  

In many situations a diplomatic envoy is half honoured guest, half spy, and half hostage.  Yes, that is three halves, diplomacy is tricky buisness.  On the one hand you are representing your government which confers great rank, but on the other hand you are being hung out to dry all alone, and if something goes wrong there is no one to back you up except your small staff.  The envoy might be a great statesman and negotiater, or he might be an annoying tit that is sent just so his superiors don't have to deal with him for a while.  It would provide some variety to noble life, and encourage more inter-city conflict and scheming.  It is hard to plot against those foreign devils if you don't know their names, what they look like, or who is important.  It wouldn't require any new clans, and only a little new construction.


Angela Christine

[RunningMountain]

Tek could send his black robes. Try something, I dare you.

[Ghost]

Blowing up a city state and leaving it in ruins.. Surely the renegades will have a great ruins on the other side of the known world.  Not to mention groups of scavengers and tomb raiders rushing to the ruins, in hopes of picking up whatever prize the leveled city could bring them.  The skirmishers between the scavengers....  Oh.. Sounds all too cool.

Blow up Tuluk.

Yeah, let's do it.

[Cuusardo]

Oh great, another "I hate Tuluk" thread.   :roll:

[Northlander]

Yes please, blow something up. I'm glad we tried having the game made for twice our playerbase but it hasn't worked out. Boom.

[moab]

Actually, my wife just reminded me of the dream I had last night.  I believe that Luir's will be wiped from the face of the planet.  (Note: This is the wrong choice).  I was standing in a black fortress in my dream a couple other dudes (guards, perhaps) nearby when we were assaulted by what I can only call a rain of arrows that darkened the sky.  We were all hit numerous times and I limped off somewhere and looked down at the many arrows poking out of my legs.

No doubt this dream portends the destruction of Luir's to some bow-wield Gith women.

Now we just have to find a way to redirect their energy toward Tuluk before it's too late.

[Kalden]

There is conflict. Definetly conflict. Nose around, you'll find it. Just because something isn't obvious and out there, doesn't mean it's not there.

Eh, these past few months I've been in the position to know. There's really nothing to speak of.

Tuluk is a waste. I want to see the 'rinth hopping.

[RunningMountain]

I agree that there is no conflict between the supposidly feuding city-states.  I try my best, but even I get burnt out playing the bad guy all the time, and I got tired of dying, someone else can take those reins.

-RM

[Ghost]

Hmm.. ehem... Well I can't say there is no conflict.

There definetely is some.  But well... I could say it is below expectations.  Well.. My expectations.  I could say I have seen more tension, but for the last months, I can't see as much.  There still is, but eh.. You got the idea.

[RunningMountain]

Damnit boy, if people aren't doing you call that tension? Bah, what the hell has this game amounted to? Treehugging piece of kankshit, my next PC is going to a nakki ranger that kills northerners for fun and eats their eyeballs, and makes a cloak out of their scalps.

[Yokunama]

But seriously, Allanak would have to win.

Thats right!

[Cenghiz]

There is tension between both cities.. But as always, I can't find anything more brilliant than what AC has said. (No I won't quote, scroll back and read it.)
If a ceasefire becomes possible, it will be fun.

Note: I'm also disturbed of this 'burn, remove, destroy' trend. Is everybody's sign Scorpio in this board?

[Yokunama]

If a ceasefire becomes possible, it will be fun.

Then what? A big "spice" party in Allanak?

[LoD]

Allanak and Tuluk are both important parts of the Zalanthas game world.

There are many different people who play Armageddon, and Tuluk represents a change of pace for those people who want to experience a role and environment a little different from the typical southlands.  I've seen many sheep herded into the belief that Tuluk should be burned to the ground simply to swell the player numbers in Allanak.  That seems like an awful selfish and short sighted thing to suggest.

As others have pointed out, Allanak would not be the only choice for players to move should Tuluk fall for some reason.  Many of you probably haven't played long enough to know Tuluk for how it used to be prior to its destruction and had the chance to play in an environment with two adult city-states interacting with one another.

Tuluk is still young, and growing.  It's still licking its wounds from the last utter destruction, occupation, liberation and rebuilding it's endured.  Much of what happens there now is going to define a great many things in the years to come because it is so maleable.  When the Sun King was in full power, and his servants and followers were in full strength, it was a different scene than most of you are presented with today.

My suggestion is to be patient.  So many of you are quick to say, "Burn Tuluk, I don't understand!  It's lame.  It's easy.  It's full of bunnyhuggers!"  Why don't you spend the energy you're putting into regurgitating these posts and change what don't like about it.  Spend time drawing people together, train them, make political contacts, get financial and martial backing, campaign for your glorious crusade, march on the city-state and see what happens.

Anything less than pursuing those goals would undermine the actions countless players before you have taken to preserve an area of the world rich in history, culture and potential so many of you are crying to have removed abruptly and without effort.  

I suppose an easier way to say what I mean is, "Put up or shut up."  I, for one, am pretty sick and tired of people whining on the boards and calling for Tuluk's elimination.  A lot of work has been put into this area that you may or may not understand, and that ignorance isn't a license to campaign for its simple destruction.  You don't like it, do something about it in game.  You may find yourself having fun.

-LoD

[Bestatte]

I'm one of the folks who likes Tuluk. I like Allanak too. I like the tribal non-city groups and yes, even on occasion, I like Red Storm.

What I like most, is that we currently have CHOICES. Just like in real life, where I can pick Charmin for its softness, or Scott for its sandpapery reminder that my ass is a living part of my body, and several dozen other varieties inbetween, I _like_ that I can pick one place one character, and try something drastically different the next time around.

Tuluk -is- drastically different from Allanak, on too many levels to count. But that's what makes it so much fun to play there. And it's what makes it so much fun to play in Nak.

[amoeba]

To be fair 'blowing up Tuluk' and 'closing down Tuluki nobility' and some of those other suggestions in your list are really pretty much the same sentiment.

Yes, but it's so much more dramatic sounding that way

Oh, and I agree 100% with LoD

[Jakahri]

Allanak and Tuluk are both important parts of the Zalanthas game world.

I disagree. Having two major city-states simply detracts from the game in a way that splits the player-base up needlessly.

I've seen many sheep herded into the belief that Tuluk should be burned to the ground simply to swell the player numbers in Allanak.  That seems like an awful selfish and short sighted thing to suggest.

That is not what this thread is about. I stated that I don't actually care which city is burned, as long as -one- of them is effectively taken out with only a maze of ruins in its place.

On a further note, anyone who wishes to further bash Tuluk should start their own thread. I'm asking you all politely now to stay on target. Thanks.

Many of you probably haven't played long enough to know Tuluk for how it used to be prior to its destruction and had the chance to play in an environment with two adult city-states interacting with one another.

I've been around since before the second war, though most other players might not have. The point is, there cannot be much "interaction" between city-states if the players invovled are too few in number. Perhaps when the playerbase reaches a level of consistency with at least 100 characters online as an average there would be enough room for two major cities?



I don't -care- which city is destroyed. It would likely be easier to eliminate Tuluk, do to its extensive set of ruins already that can merely be doubled or tripled. Allanak, on the other hand, has the rinth, which could become the surviving portion of the city along with a few ruins, and become the central network for thugs and loners. Instead of seeing 5 players in a city, you could see 10, or 15, or even 20 at NON-PEAK hours. It's possible with only -one- major city. Hell, we might even seen more human tribals to help balance out the sickly number of d.elves which constantly roam the lands.

I've had the chance to see both cities interact with each other. It's nice. It's fun. It's diluted. It is diluted because there are too few players on either side to make the game as interesting as it can be. Have Tuluk rever to desert tribes with an -actual- Muk Utep npc leading them into raids on Allanak, and all of a sudden you have a horde of rpt's which can be scheduled as monthly events. Have the remaining last vestiges of Tektolnes's band of robed templars attempt assassinations on the heirarchy of Tuluk, and all of a sudden you have a "not so bunny-huggish city" due to the added notion of watching your back 24/7. I see the possibilities without two cities, and I'm just loving it right now.

The Twin Warlocks.

The Tribes of Gol Krathu.

Muk Utep.

As.

An.

Actual.

Npc.

That you can FOLLOW. You can help Muk Utep the warrior mage destroy the vile city of Allanak and purge the lands of Vrun Driath! Ride. Ride on. Ride atop the fallen horses of Gol Krathu as the Sun King's fallen templar and destroy all in your path. Fan out. Repopulate. Procreate. Instigate. Guerilla warfare on Allanak has begun! Assassination attempts on the robes run rampant as your forces continuously hound them from the city alleys and sand dunes!

Tektolnes dead.

Black robes shattered.

Rinth is your new home.

You play a fallen blue robe turned assassin/mage who has been sent on a mission by the fractured heirarchy to kidnap the one of the head members of the Lirathan Order and splay their ravaged body across the northern span as a warning sign to the northerners.

Tribes are flourishing.

Numbers are rising.

You are a Jul Tavan taking advantage of the new trades.

Suddenly, gaming in the desert becomes a tad bit easier, as you will most assuredly always have someone there to have your back.

Or, you could just go train, eat, sleep, have the occasional mudsex, then quit out. And talk in your sleep about being sneaky and conniving. Rawr.

I just don't think I'd ever sleep if one of the cities were destroyed. I'd likely lock myself in the room and never quit.

[Alnir]

Note: I'm also disturbed of this 'burn, remove, destroy' trend. Is everybody's sign Scorpio in this board?

I'm a Gemini :3

[Cuusardo]

Anyone who thinks there's no conflict between Allanak and Tuluk is missing out on a LOT.  Chances are you're not in the right roles, or getting into the right situations to see it.  I mean seriously, if you're playing some grubby independent who does nothing but hunt, collect materials, craft and sell, of COURSE you're going to miss out on such things.  If you're off playing a tribal then yes, you'll miss out on a lot.  If you're not playing a human, chances are you're missing out on a lot of it as well.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

[WarriorPoet]

Bleh. I'm all for blowing shit up, but if we blew up Tuluk, where would all the weenies run when Allanak got too hardcore for them?

I would definately prefer the playerbase to be more concentrated, but I don't think blowing up Tuluk is the answer, as all you would have then is a resurgence of the Rebellion, where even I might split out of Allanak to play.

-WP

[Ghost]

Hmm.. WP is right.

We should definetely blow up Allanak.

Yeah.. Sounds all too right.  So we can play a rough rebel for resurrection!

[Penumbra]

Nope. I think destroying either city would be too harsh. To many RP possibilities would be ruined.
I like the game world as it is.

[Anonymous]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

A lot of work has been put into this area that you may or may not understand, and that ignorance isn't a license to campaign for its simple destruction.

Gee, thanks.  Not every opinion contrary to yours is born out of ignorance.  I know tons of work on both the staff and playerbase's part has been put into Tuluk.  If Allanak was the 'blown up' city then a lot of the subtlety and other facets of Tuluk would become better realized due to the concentration of players.  I honestly don't want to see either area truly destroyed just less division of specific roles and the resulting reduction of roleplay opportunities when the playerbase is spread out.

Since the return of Tuluk I've found city-roles to be lacking in a strong number of peers on each level of society.  I'd really like to go back to the days we had three, four years ago when on a nightly basis using the listen skill in the Trader's Inn was nearly impossible due to how much was going on in that room from just the assembled nobility.

Telling people to put up or shut up does little to solve a problem that boils down to only having 48 players logged in at peak time to cover desert elf tribes, human tribes, 'rinthi PCs, Red Storm, Kurac in Luir's, independent hunters and traders based in a city, mercenaries, nobles, noble guards, noble aides, merchants house players, merchant house guards, templars, militia, and magickers.  You can't make there be more people logged in and this boils down to simple numbers to me.

If we had a larger active playerbase I would be on the other side of this argument, though I suspect it wouldn't even exist if that were the case.

[Cuusardo]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

A few people bitching on the GDB isn't a noteable percentage of the playerbase.

[amoeba]

There has been much talk about how the player base is spread too thin and things need to be destroyed or closed to force them together. At the start I want to say my personal opinion is that this is a fallacy.  I have seen good player counts most nights, and just having more people concentrated in one area does not mean it's better than when the playerbase is spread thin.   I for one have had some of the best time as a delf, where I saw virtually no one for days, even when the player count was high.  I spent RL weeks where I never entered a city, even Luirs and still had a blast.  I have also been in crowded taverns where no one did anything, just sat around and stared at everyone.   I saw no correlation between quanity and quality.

That being said I see a couple of potential issues with only one major playing base. One thing I brought up before, and have encountered personally. What do you do with a character, a long played one, who is deep into to numerous plots, knows everyone, and many secrets.  This person dies.  I shudder at the thought of having to reenter the very same place as a nobody with no knowledge, but still have all the same plots, and people surrounding me.  Having two isolated playing bases provides the distance that I think is required at times to readjust.  You stick everyone in one city this makes it hard, the character has no memory, but the player surely does.

Also where is the variety in having essentially one flavor. Sure we have red storm, and Luirs, But Red Storm is a ghost town in respect to PC's  and Luirs is a specialty town,  plus if the argument is to consolidate, then all the focus would be on the one town, one flavor.  I'm for more options not less.  IMHO this will attract more people.

To me, removing one area so that you can have everybody together in one big dysfunctional family is short sighted.  You want to make this fun and interesting, then -try- to do something IG.  As LoD said in a different post, all this energy pressed into the GDB, damn if you put as much energy into doing something IG, instead of just arguing that someone else should do it, things would be a blast. Who knows maybe you will accomplish something.

[Malifaxis]

Hey, I got an idea...

Quit bitching about it on the GDB, and have your character start leaning towards doing this.  Blow up the damn city by effort, not by a vote.

If you can't, well, gee... it's a FREAKIN CITY.  They don't die easy.

Make a damn warfrenzied templar... a hellacious zealot who knows that his King must rule all in a more direct fashion.

There's a reason there are two cities.



I say up the political intrigue and assassination attempts.  Make playing a leader in a city a deadly thing.  Keep both cities, but up the damn tension between them.  They are not friendly, but people happily and freely travel from place to place with almost no encounter of societal tension/cityism.

The playerbase is just fine without consolidating and ruining years of work by players because your f'me isn't getting enough attention.

[LoD]

CRW writes:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

This would be much more applicable to the removal of isolated tribes and villages than a city-state containing 4-7 clans at any one given time within its walls.  If we were even going to comprise a list, Tuluk would be second to last on my list next to Allanak and a whole lot of names would precede them both.

I honestly don't want to see either area truly destroyed just less division of specific roles and the resulting reduction of roleplay opportunities when the playerbase is spread out.

Since the return of Tuluk I've found city-roles to be lacking in a strong number of peers on each level of society. I'd really like to go back to the days we had three, four years ago when on a nightly basis using the listen skill in the Trader's Inn was nearly impossible due to how much was going on in that room from just the assembled nobility.

People follow leaders.  They don't follow immobile objects like cities.  This game has a cycle, and you'll see that the population will fluctuate from organization to organization, from city to city, from indoors to outdoors with a natural pulse.  One of the major contributiing factors to population density are good PC leaders.

Good PC leaders will recruit other PC's, train them and keep them interested enough in the game not to go and get themselves needlessly killed out of boredom.  When I played a Merchant House agent, I had 37 active members in my clan at its peak - people who would play at least weekly, with about half of that number playing daily.  When I played a mercenary leader, we regularly had 5-10 on at any given time and 15-20 people for RPT's.

Many of these high profile PC's gain the attention of the Immortals, and are often given an invitation (or apply) for a staff position.  Immortals want them because they play often, have a good grasp of the game and seem to want to provide fun to other players.  Players want to become staff because they want to help the game in ways they can't as a player, and because some may feel it's akin to a final step.

What does this have to do with population concentrations?  When high profile leader PC's are elevated to staff members, I am both happy for them and saddened at the same time.  I am glad they get to do some things they may have wanted to do, contribute in a way they couldn't have before and experience another part of Armageddon.  I am sad because the duties of a staff member often preclude you from being able to continue your integral role in the playerbase as a PC leader.

This is another large contributing factor to what you may witness as a thinning of the populace, because PC leaders attract other PC's to them.  When you remove those elements and make them less constant, then those players attracted to them begin to wander a bit and don't hold as tightly to a given area.  I'm sure the Immortals and players can both agree that when a good PC leader dies in a clan, the clan will often begin to splinter and fall apart.

This, more than the presence of two city-states, is a larger contributor to the concentration levels of the playerbase.  It's also summertime, and a lot of players are out of school and don't have access to the internet (though this is probably becoming less common), or are on vacations, trips, enjoying things like the sunshine.

-LoD

[Halaster]

No.

[mansa]

I wish Tuluk was smaller, even moreso than it is now.

I think that the Poet's Circle should be the centre of the city, inside the 'red sun commons' and that the theater should be in the centre of that.  I think that the tribal market should also be in the red sun commons, and everything should be centred around the mass of people in the city.  In the commons.  Because the red sun commons, right now, is just a big open road that has nothing realistic in it.

That's what I wish.  I find it strange that the poet's circle is so far away from everything.  Other than that, I think most things are fine.

[Twilight]

I remember playing eight or nine years ago and I was really excited to see over fifteen people on at a time.  We had two cities.  And it worked out just fine.  Part of the mystery is that you don't know everyone.  If you lump them all into one city and a few tribals, pretty soon if you have a character six months, you know all the other "public" characters (ie not secretly surviving in rinth, a blackwing outpost or a sorcerer's cave).  As it is, unless you travel a lot, you don't know all these people.  Which makes for surprises.  Which is good.

I've always wanted to see more open conflict between Allanak and Tuluk.  Not few hour, super massive battles in a win or loose big situation.  But rather sustained conflict.

Take SimDesert and create SimBattlefield with it.  A huge, real battlefield, where a Scorpion can kill a few Legionairres so that an Allanaki unit might advance a couple of rooms.  Or a northern war slave could earn fame defeating a heavily guarded Nakki captain.  Ebb and flow stuff, where PCs could go and get involved in a real war.  But thats just my dream.  You take out a city, you take out any possibility.

And IC'ly...I think its obvious that to truly destroy one of the cities you need to destory its sorcerer king (look at what happened to Tuluk).  If you destroyed one of them, you destroy the balance that keeps one of them from taking over the entire Known (and unknown?) world and turning you all into zombie slaves.  Not that I would mind playing a zombie sex-me pleasure slave.  Just not for all eternity.

[jmordetsky]

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

I still feel this way. *kicks tek in the teeth*

[Delirium]

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

I still feel this way. *kicks tek in the teeth*

Conflict heavily influenced by player's actions, at that.

I seriously think that this is part of the gritty charm of Kurac out at the Outpost.  Sure, there's powerful characters backing the Merchant House, but things are more leveled out for an edgy, survivalistic feel.  Everyone that's a part of the House has a specific purpose and function.  If they fail at that function, the House is affected.  There are no silk-clad nobles roaming about, and even the highest dignitaries are often in sandcloth and linens.  There is a constant need for certain people, duties, and actions, and a constant feel of actually managing to affect the gameworld in some small way.  Players are still cogs in the wheel, but they have a real sense that "without me, things might have happened differently."

I wish we could translate that somehow to the majority of the city-states.  Focus more on commoner-commoner struggles for power and influence and less on the grandiose power of the Nobility.  Having the nobility is a good foil for the dirtiness of the common folk in theory, but in practice it tends to bring a real sense of luxury into the gameworld that often feels out of place.

[Armaddict]

All I'll say after reading the first page of this, is that I like when one side is significantly weaker than the other.  It makes an underdog, and promotes conflict...one trying to weaken the stronger, the stronger trying to finally eliminate the weaker.

The struggle always made it more interesting.  I played a -ton- of characters in the north when the rebellion and occupation was going on, and have withdrawn for the most part since shortly after it came back.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Tuluk is -far- weaker than Allanak. Believe that.

I would not be against the destruction of empire-cities and the insurgence of village-based kingdoms or alliances.

Kurac will always be here. You need to understand this. They will never go away. They are easily the most harrassed group even ICly in the world, and they -still- maintain their Outpost AND emporiums in every city. They also produce and sell -everything-, literally, unlike any other Merchant House or Noble House.

Yes, I -am- a Kuraci fan, even though I'm not one currently. I always will be. But what I am saying is not fandomainiam speaking, it's a fact. Every single organization in the world could fall and Kurac would not, because they are simply more adaptive.

Everyone knows it ICly. And you know it too, even you Kurac-haters.

[Delirium]

And you know it too, even you Kurac-haters.

That's WHY they hate Kurac.  Jealousy.

But I have to plink down my support again for less focus on all-powerful empires and nobility and more warring factions and struggle that's low-down and dirty, something that most all commoners can sink their grubby claws into.  Will the empires dissolve and nobility fall?  Not likely, though with IC effort anything is possible.

Regardless of whether that happens, I would still like to see a general movement of the playerbase toward more "low end" plots, commoner-commoner (conflict between merchant Houses, perhaps a smaller one trying to rise toward the top, or a new one coming into existence, competing mercenary warbands, visible turf wars between gangs forming in the cities (and not just the 'rinth), a tribe of city elves attempting a rise into prominence and wealth..) and less "high end" plots (take over teh werld!11, kill sorceror of doom, omg evil magickal creature that can destroy legions of soldiers, etc, etc..).  Not that there's anything wrong with high end plots, and they can be lots of fun, but they've been done before.  Let's focus on something else.

[Pantoufle]

Luir's/Kurac may be great and all but it has its flaws just like the rest of the game.  For example, it's invincibility.  I could have predicted that when Luir's was overtaken and its residents made "Ten'Sarak" they would win their outpost back and be just as comfy as they'd always been (even better off than before!)  For every negative thing you can say about Tuluk or Allanak, you can make just as many statements about Luir's Outpost.

I still stand by my age old statement of: if you're going to nuke anything, nuke Luir's Outpost!

I actually think Kurac would be a cool clan, too, if they were just humbled a tiny bit.  Putting them on the same level as the other merchant houses would be a great start.  As it is, they're basically a noble house with less silk and fluff.  And they're the only merchant house with a village OUTSIDE the rule (and watchful eyes) of either city-state.  They can do whatever they want.  Sorcery, literacy, mindbending, dabbling in explosives, etc.  If any of the other merchant houses wish to pursue "questionable" hobbies, they need to be smart about it.  If Kurac wants to be as truly "sly" as they like to think themselves, having restrictions would certainly give them that opportunity.  Saying that everyone gives them a hard time (when what they really mean is Allanak SOMETIMES gives them a hard time) doesn't really cut it if you ask me.

[Anonymous]

I thought Kadius ran a village NW of Tuluk and that it was common knowledge?!  Never played a Kadian so I could be totally off here.

[Maybe42or54]

Runs a logging village you mean.

[Fafnir]

remove me

[Delirium]

Pantoufle:  Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea of how much player driven effort and planning went into all of that, nor the details surrounding that whole situation.  Suggesting that Ten'Sarak came without time and effort or that players were handed things without having to work for it, seems pretty insulting to those that were involved.  Not to mention the thought of them being "even better off than before" after having their Outpost totally smashed and in need of vast reconstruction is absolutely ludicrous. (Oh, by the way, the re-construction?  Player driven.)

This is not really an argument to get into though, as it would delve much too far into IC information, nor is it really on topic, save that it reiterates my point of player driven plots and effort making a real and noticeable impact on the course of events.

p.s.  I, too, would say this whether or not I played a Kuraci, that isn't a factor in this debate. I have a much better understanding of the House than I have in the past, and that's why I feel the way I do now.

[Pantoufle]

I fail to see the relevance behind "player driven" efforts and Luirs' status.  

If all the players pool together and manage to destroy the entire Known World, then make the game only habitible within a 10 room stretch, does that mean the end result is fun?  If the Tan Muark PCs pool their resources together and dominate the entire game, making Tan Muark the only available clan to play anymore -- I don't care how realistic that may be it still sucks.  I'm not saying Luir's has done these things, rather, "player driven" efforts isn't the end-all, be-all of an argument.

My statement has nothing to do with what occured IC and what's realistic and what isn't.  I'm saying House Kurac/Luir's Outpost -- in my opinion -- would be way cooler if they had a few (more) visible weaknesses.  I think their owning of an entire village/outpost makes them effectively more powerful than a noble house.  They are their own city-state and they run it (nearly) in templar fashion.  I see Kurac's desire to have a "sly" appearance, but I just don't see that as being possible given their current status (regardless of what you think I know or don't know IC).  If, however, they shared the same fate as all other merchant houses, I think Kurac -- moreso than the others -- would be a very sly bunch indeed.  They would have to be!

Please consider, I would make these statements whether or not I am currently playing a character in House Kurac (and only the staff know the answer to that one).  I haven't made one negative comment about House Kurac, rather, what I think could be done to improve it.  In my opinion, it starts with Luir's Outpost.

[Malifaxis]

Alright, now I'm pissed.  Here it goes.

As a (big) player during the Luir's Seige and Ten'Sarak, I can say with an absolute lack of any fucking doubt that Ten'Sarak was not fucking given to the clan.  The staff didn't come down and go "Oh, here ya go!!"  I put at *least* five days hard work, five days playtime, just emoting fucking building structures and bullshit.  Ten'Sarak was not a fucking wrapped gift, and I'll not see the memory belittled on the damn GDB.  We lost good players from Kurac because they died during exploration, trying to find TS.  We lost players during the building.  We fought off multiple raids during the construction, and we put our fucking time and effort in, so go screw yourself if you think that's not the way it went down.

Secondly the reason Luir's was taken back is because it's a fucking homeland.  If some mantis came over to fucking Jerusalem and kicked out all the humans in a big ass war... you think the people would just flee and leave never to return?  FUCK NO.  They'd gather, regroup, and they'd take their shit back.  And if they couldn't do it the first time, they'd wait until they could try again... and they would.  So, wow, ***WONDERFUL*** foresight you have, Pantouffle, at being able to guess human nature and tenacity.

And, to be honest, I seriously hope that at some point Kurac gets to flex why they're predominant in the wastes.  Go ahead, Salarr, try moving something down north road without Kurac support.  The same, Kadius, you just move those silk clad wheels as fast as you can.  If Kurac doesn't want you there, you won't be there.

Kurac is an amazing and vital force in the Zalanthan world, and Luir's outpost is very possibly my favorite spattering of civilization.  The characters tend to be much more deep, much more varied, and much more inured to struggle and survival than either of the 'pole' cities.

[Foamy007]

I agree, and anyone who has took the time to dig into the history will understand the true reason Kurac is soo powerful and how they managed to come across most of the things it has. There as been years of work IRL and IC by players, imms and others to create what they have today. And to remove it with a swipe of a key. WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. I hate this entire post because I feel that everything should be left as is and maybe alter a few things, maybe have a war yes, but destroy entire sections of a city, ADD more work to the IMMS ALREADY HUGE list of things to have to do (which i might add most of it comes from people complaining about this and that or wanting this item or that item). I think thats just not fair for them or the players there. Though war is not fair. I am just saying that the IMMS should be the ones to decide something like that. If they want our petty useless opinions then they will ask for them.

Also back on the Kurac note, I have seen entire groups of PCs sit around and emote, emote after emote on building a simple catwalk or a simple stone door. Also as for Luirs having a weakness. Dig around a bit IC see what you can find. There are sometimes things that you dont see unless you read the room desc. Explore a bit more dig a bit more get into the inner workings of some of these SO called DEAD clans and you will find out there is ALOT more there than you will expect.

FOR KRATHS SAKE GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND PLAY THE FREAKING GAME NOT SIT IN YOUR LOVE DUVEY LITTLE CLAN AND SUCK FOOD AND WATER AND TRAIN. TALK TO PPL GET TO KNOW PLAYERS AND PCS AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE YOU WILL REALIZE WHATS REALLY OUT THERE.

[Pantoufle]

As a (big) player during the Luir's Seige and Ten'Sarak, I can say with an absolute lack of any fucking doubt that Ten'Sarak was not fucking given to the clan. The staff didn't come down and go "Oh, here ya go!!"

I never said they did.  I said I could have predicted it would happen that way (whether staff did it, or players did is not the point).  Again, my argument has nothing to do with what was "player driven".  My opinion (and I wholeheartedly encourage you to have yours, though I see you cannot offer the same in return) is that House Kurac is too powerful for a merchant house.  The start of this thread asked who should we nuke and I went ahead and said Luir's.  I was asked, I answered.

We lost good players from Kurac because they died during exploration, trying to find TS. We lost players during the building. We fought off multiple raids during the construction, and we put our fucking time and effort in, so go screw yourself if you think that's not the way it went down.

Characters die.  That's the name of the game.  Welcome to Armageddon.

Secondly the reason Luir's was taken back is because it's a fucking homeland. If some mantis came over to fucking Jerusalem and kicked out all the humans in a big ass war... you think the people would just flee and leave never to return? FUCK NO. They'd gather, regroup, and they'd take their shit back. And if they couldn't do it the first time, they'd wait until they could try again... and they would. So, wow, ***WONDERFUL*** foresight you have, Pantouffle, at being able to guess human nature and tenacity.

Thank you for flaming my attempt at a mature conversation.  I don't think profanity ever helps backup one's debate though.

And, to be honest, I seriously hope that at some point Kurac gets to flex why they're predominant in the wastes. Go ahead, Salarr, try moving something down north road without Kurac support. The same, Kadius, you just move those silk clad wheels as fast as you can. If Kurac doesn't want you there, you won't be there.

I sometimes wonder what's with all the anti-silk sentiments in game.  You know what?  There's room for both types in this MUD, silk-clad fops and nitty gritty mercenarial types alike.  Take your pick and I'll take mine.

[Jherlen]

I'd be all for a good conflict that gets a larger majority of players involved. Although there's obviously movements and plotting and feints between both cities going on, I think it's kept to a relatively small section of the playerbase in both cities in the templarates, militias, and noble houses. Global conflict that would get more of everyone involved would be more exciting.

Kurac is not an invincible superclan. Clearly it's powerful, both virtually and practically as a result of large, active, dedicated and well-roleplayed PCs. But I think the statement that they can control who moves what along the entire north road is a little over the top. Unless Kurac really wants to tangle with Salarr, Kadius, and the people buying whatever goods those Houses are moving (which seems like a bad idea), they won't. There are four Great Merchant Houses, the reason why they're all Great is because they're -all- HUGE, RICH, and POWERFUL, and content not to step on each other's toes to upset that balance. Before making statements like "omgz Kurac is so 1337 and uber and we'll ownz j00", consider the virtual factors like political connections, vnpc guard and merc forces, economic power, and so on. Kurac has their own fortress and inside it they reign supreme, but I think their influence drops exponentially elsewhere. In Tuluk and Allanak they're no more powerful than the other three merchant houses, and Tuluk and Allanak is where all the people and all the money is.

Still, I don't see what blowing up Luir's would do. I'd much rather see Tuluk topple that pansy Tek's tower and subject the southlands to the monotonous bardic competitions all we northerners have to deal with.  :twisted:

[Cuusardo]

If you want to see something blow up or get obliterated, why not do something about it ICly rather than yammering on and debating about it on the GDB?

[Pantoufle]

You know what's as annoying as people who supposedly "whine" about parts of the game world?  People who whine about those people.

Look.  This is a discussion board.  We all have different views and different opinions (thank god!)  Everything that has ever been said here has already been said, and everything that ever will be said likely already has been as well.  Every topic has been hashed and rehashed a million times over.  One thing you can count on is for every topic to come up again (and again).  Expect it, in fact.

And you know there is always the option of not reading what bothers you..

If someone's statements about Tuluk offends you, don't read them.  If you're sick of players saying "Let's burn Allanak!" you can always read a different thread.

[flurry]

I fail to see the relevance behind "player driven" efforts and Luirs' status.  

What player driven effort can do, player driven effort can undo.  That's one big reason that it's relevant.

[Cuusardo]

There's a difference between complaining and pointing out ways to go about things.

[Anonymous]

Cursing someone, flaming them, and belittling others just because they have different opinions than you is not the way to go about an intelligent, thought provoking discussion.

I would really appreciate it if for people to get back on topic and discuss the original discussion at hand. I don't want this thread to be destroyed and locked by the staff, because I think it can be very useful to us as players.

If you have anything nice to say about someone, just bite your tongue and don't say anything at all. Really, it's not that hard.

[Foamy007]

I dont like seeing threads locked any more than anyone else, but what is there to talk about. Theres more underneath the sand than most ppl realize. They just have to find it.

I am simply tired of seeing players sit in a tavern for 3 days IRL straight and do nothing but talk with anyone who comes in.

[HardCarbon]

I dont like seeing threads locked any more than anyone else, but what is there to talk about. Theres more underneath the sand than most ppl realize. They just have to find it.

I am simply tired of seeing players sit in a tavern for 3 days IRL straight and do nothing but talk with anyone who comes in.

Why?  are they doing anything that hurts you?

[Bestatte]

Erm, how would you know they were there for 3 days straight, if you weren't also there for 3 days straight?

Just curious

[Underdark Song]

This thread is simply a cry for a major RP event.  Too many bored folks out there discontented with low player populations.

[Foamy007]

Ah nevermind. People will never understand. Just blow the whole place, and in five minutes you will have everyone whining again about wanting Tuluk or Allanak or Luirs back because its TOO dangerous out there. Blah blah blah. Im out of this discussion.

[Mean_Old_Bastard]

Make it happen.

There have been several OOC discussion threads.
Even discussion. Make it happen.

Die trying. Fail a few times. Then do it.


I dare you.

[jcarter]

I think what the OP wants is more tension in the playerbase. Perhaps more open skirmishes between the two cities. Blowing up something and another city claiming credit for it creates a lot of rippling effects. It could create a sort of Armageddon 'red scare', where you weren't sure if your best buddy was actually secretly working for the other city. I don't think that one city would take too kindly to it either and would want to strike back. PCs could be employed to go onto these 'undercover missions'.

It seems like a fun enough idea and don't really see a problem with it. You don't need to level the entire city. Just blowing up a popular shop could be enough to create this sort of effect.

[jmordetsky]

EDITED.

I was drunk.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't know about blowing up a City-State, but I do think that more open conflict between the two would be interesting. Spill some of that fitlhy northern blood! I'm talking fully player driven, of course. It's amazing how one shot can spark a war. Someone finds out that some 'Nakkis killing a few Tuluki loggers, they might come down and kill a few southern hunters as retaliation. And it escalates!

Or something. I'm not in a position to start it myself, right now, but maybe one day.

[Bogre]

For all the Kurac bantering:

Kurac is like the Spacer's guild in Dune. They help hold everything together, because they've worked to put a presence everywhere. You say they're powerful? Hell yeah, they got a foothold everywhere. That's what comes from a -lot- of time and effort, fighting tooth and nail, and a lot of pc's dieing for the House. I've never even played a Kuraci, but I know they don't sit around and say, "Lets build an outpost" and have it poofed to them by the IMMs. They have to work for their gains, just like every other clan.

As to destroying one or the other city-state, I think its a great idea if it comes about in an IC manner. We shouldn't say, "Hey, I want to consolodate the playerbase so I can have more friends for my cool southern shindigs, so I'm going to ask the staff to just level Tuluk."

It should come around through IC means...out of the top of my head I'll make a scenario: A high-level Jihaen templar finds out the funding for the Allanaki army has gone down drastically, ending up in the drop in troop numbers, morale, and health as Allanak suffers a three-year famine. Tuluk, on the other hand, recently pushed back two allied desert elf tribes who were trying to take farmland around Tuluk, and the numbers in the conscripted corps has never been higher. He petitions the Sun King, telling him the attack will never have a better chance of succeeding. So the army of the North mobilizes and gets to Luirs before word reaches the South, who's tired and demoralized army wearily prepare for battle. The main Tuluki force splits, sending one third to occupy the area around Allanak and seize the farming villages while two-thirds of the Sun Legion shock troops prepare to assault the main facility. (This would all go through RP and things, every bit of it.) But Allanak strikes back, a unit of Scorpions led by a blue-robe manage to sneak behind and strike at a cache of supplies and seige weapons, harming the Tulukian's ability to storm the city. The city is besieged from the north and west, at the main gate. The attack at the main gate bogs down, with horrendous casualties on both sides. The attack from the north breaches the ill-defended wall, and the northerners enter the 'Rinth in force. But all is not well, for vicious attacks come, with horrendous magicks of rogue mages battering the ill-prepared force. Meanwhile, the gate has fallen and the city is being stormed, blood running through the streets. The Jihaen, leading his troops, falls in combat with an Borsail Wyvern Lieutenant, managing to stall the impetus of the attack.

And blah blah, I won't end this. Maybe the Tuluki's attack succeeds and they take the city, while Muk Utep (who has been hiding in an argosy all along) smites down Tek's Tower and engages in a fierce battle, that lashes the area. Or maybe the Allanaki's pull together to force a retreat from the Tulukis, creating peace for a time. Or maybe they summon some great strength, pursueing and utterly breaking the invading army...leaving Tuluk underdefended and ripe to pluck.

Something like that would be far more interesting and involve so much more RP and time and thought than just saying, 'lets explode Tuluk and like say gith sorcerors did it'

[Adhira]

I think this topic has been pretty well debated. As it's now veering off course I'm locking the thread.