Let's blow up the world.

[Pantoufle]

Luir's/Kurac may be great and all but it has its flaws just like the rest of the game.  For example, it's invincibility.  I could have predicted that when Luir's was overtaken and its residents made "Ten'Sarak" they would win their outpost back and be just as comfy as they'd always been (even better off than before!)  For every negative thing you can say about Tuluk or Allanak, you can make just as many statements about Luir's Outpost.

I still stand by my age old statement of: if you're going to nuke anything, nuke Luir's Outpost!

I actually think Kurac would be a cool clan, too, if they were just humbled a tiny bit.  Putting them on the same level as the other merchant houses would be a great start.  As it is, they're basically a noble house with less silk and fluff.  And they're the only merchant house with a village OUTSIDE the rule (and watchful eyes) of either city-state.  They can do whatever they want.  Sorcery, literacy, mindbending, dabbling in explosives, etc.  If any of the other merchant houses wish to pursue "questionable" hobbies, they need to be smart about it.  If Kurac wants to be as truly "sly" as they like to think themselves, having restrictions would certainly give them that opportunity.  Saying that everyone gives them a hard time (when what they really mean is Allanak SOMETIMES gives them a hard time) doesn't really cut it if you ask me.

[Anonymous]

I thought Kadius ran a village NW of Tuluk and that it was common knowledge?!  Never played a Kadian so I could be totally off here.

[Maybe42or54]

Runs a logging village you mean.

[Fafnir]

remove me

[Delirium]

Pantoufle:  Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea of how much player driven effort and planning went into all of that, nor the details surrounding that whole situation.  Suggesting that Ten'Sarak came without time and effort or that players were handed things without having to work for it, seems pretty insulting to those that were involved.  Not to mention the thought of them being "even better off than before" after having their Outpost totally smashed and in need of vast reconstruction is absolutely ludicrous. (Oh, by the way, the re-construction?  Player driven.)

This is not really an argument to get into though, as it would delve much too far into IC information, nor is it really on topic, save that it reiterates my point of player driven plots and effort making a real and noticeable impact on the course of events.

p.s.  I, too, would say this whether or not I played a Kuraci, that isn't a factor in this debate. I have a much better understanding of the House than I have in the past, and that's why I feel the way I do now.

[Pantoufle]

I fail to see the relevance behind "player driven" efforts and Luirs' status.  

If all the players pool together and manage to destroy the entire Known World, then make the game only habitible within a 10 room stretch, does that mean the end result is fun?  If the Tan Muark PCs pool their resources together and dominate the entire game, making Tan Muark the only available clan to play anymore -- I don't care how realistic that may be it still sucks.  I'm not saying Luir's has done these things, rather, "player driven" efforts isn't the end-all, be-all of an argument.

My statement has nothing to do with what occured IC and what's realistic and what isn't.  I'm saying House Kurac/Luir's Outpost -- in my opinion -- would be way cooler if they had a few (more) visible weaknesses.  I think their owning of an entire village/outpost makes them effectively more powerful than a noble house.  They are their own city-state and they run it (nearly) in templar fashion.  I see Kurac's desire to have a "sly" appearance, but I just don't see that as being possible given their current status (regardless of what you think I know or don't know IC).  If, however, they shared the same fate as all other merchant houses, I think Kurac -- moreso than the others -- would be a very sly bunch indeed.  They would have to be!

Please consider, I would make these statements whether or not I am currently playing a character in House Kurac (and only the staff know the answer to that one).  I haven't made one negative comment about House Kurac, rather, what I think could be done to improve it.  In my opinion, it starts with Luir's Outpost.

[Malifaxis]

Alright, now I'm pissed.  Here it goes.

As a (big) player during the Luir's Seige and Ten'Sarak, I can say with an absolute lack of any fucking doubt that Ten'Sarak was not fucking given to the clan.  The staff didn't come down and go "Oh, here ya go!!"  I put at *least* five days hard work, five days playtime, just emoting fucking building structures and bullshit.  Ten'Sarak was not a fucking wrapped gift, and I'll not see the memory belittled on the damn GDB.  We lost good players from Kurac because they died during exploration, trying to find TS.  We lost players during the building.  We fought off multiple raids during the construction, and we put our fucking time and effort in, so go screw yourself if you think that's not the way it went down.

Secondly the reason Luir's was taken back is because it's a fucking homeland.  If some mantis came over to fucking Jerusalem and kicked out all the humans in a big ass war... you think the people would just flee and leave never to return?  FUCK NO.  They'd gather, regroup, and they'd take their shit back.  And if they couldn't do it the first time, they'd wait until they could try again... and they would.  So, wow, ***WONDERFUL*** foresight you have, Pantouffle, at being able to guess human nature and tenacity.

And, to be honest, I seriously hope that at some point Kurac gets to flex why they're predominant in the wastes.  Go ahead, Salarr, try moving something down north road without Kurac support.  The same, Kadius, you just move those silk clad wheels as fast as you can.  If Kurac doesn't want you there, you won't be there.

Kurac is an amazing and vital force in the Zalanthan world, and Luir's outpost is very possibly my favorite spattering of civilization.  The characters tend to be much more deep, much more varied, and much more inured to struggle and survival than either of the 'pole' cities.

[Foamy007]

I agree, and anyone who has took the time to dig into the history will understand the true reason Kurac is soo powerful and how they managed to come across most of the things it has. There as been years of work IRL and IC by players, imms and others to create what they have today. And to remove it with a swipe of a key. WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. I hate this entire post because I feel that everything should be left as is and maybe alter a few things, maybe have a war yes, but destroy entire sections of a city, ADD more work to the IMMS ALREADY HUGE list of things to have to do (which i might add most of it comes from people complaining about this and that or wanting this item or that item). I think thats just not fair for them or the players there. Though war is not fair. I am just saying that the IMMS should be the ones to decide something like that. If they want our petty useless opinions then they will ask for them.

Also back on the Kurac note, I have seen entire groups of PCs sit around and emote, emote after emote on building a simple catwalk or a simple stone door. Also as for Luirs having a weakness. Dig around a bit IC see what you can find. There are sometimes things that you dont see unless you read the room desc. Explore a bit more dig a bit more get into the inner workings of some of these SO called DEAD clans and you will find out there is ALOT more there than you will expect.

FOR KRATHS SAKE GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND PLAY THE FREAKING GAME NOT SIT IN YOUR LOVE DUVEY LITTLE CLAN AND SUCK FOOD AND WATER AND TRAIN. TALK TO PPL GET TO KNOW PLAYERS AND PCS AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE YOU WILL REALIZE WHATS REALLY OUT THERE.

[Pantoufle]

As a (big) player during the Luir's Seige and Ten'Sarak, I can say with an absolute lack of any fucking doubt that Ten'Sarak was not fucking given to the clan. The staff didn't come down and go "Oh, here ya go!!"

I never said they did.  I said I could have predicted it would happen that way (whether staff did it, or players did is not the point).  Again, my argument has nothing to do with what was "player driven".  My opinion (and I wholeheartedly encourage you to have yours, though I see you cannot offer the same in return) is that House Kurac is too powerful for a merchant house.  The start of this thread asked who should we nuke and I went ahead and said Luir's.  I was asked, I answered.

We lost good players from Kurac because they died during exploration, trying to find TS. We lost players during the building. We fought off multiple raids during the construction, and we put our fucking time and effort in, so go screw yourself if you think that's not the way it went down.

Characters die.  That's the name of the game.  Welcome to Armageddon.

Secondly the reason Luir's was taken back is because it's a fucking homeland. If some mantis came over to fucking Jerusalem and kicked out all the humans in a big ass war... you think the people would just flee and leave never to return? FUCK NO. They'd gather, regroup, and they'd take their shit back. And if they couldn't do it the first time, they'd wait until they could try again... and they would. So, wow, ***WONDERFUL*** foresight you have, Pantouffle, at being able to guess human nature and tenacity.

Thank you for flaming my attempt at a mature conversation.  I don't think profanity ever helps backup one's debate though.

And, to be honest, I seriously hope that at some point Kurac gets to flex why they're predominant in the wastes. Go ahead, Salarr, try moving something down north road without Kurac support. The same, Kadius, you just move those silk clad wheels as fast as you can. If Kurac doesn't want you there, you won't be there.

I sometimes wonder what's with all the anti-silk sentiments in game.  You know what?  There's room for both types in this MUD, silk-clad fops and nitty gritty mercenarial types alike.  Take your pick and I'll take mine.

[Jherlen]

I'd be all for a good conflict that gets a larger majority of players involved. Although there's obviously movements and plotting and feints between both cities going on, I think it's kept to a relatively small section of the playerbase in both cities in the templarates, militias, and noble houses. Global conflict that would get more of everyone involved would be more exciting.

Kurac is not an invincible superclan. Clearly it's powerful, both virtually and practically as a result of large, active, dedicated and well-roleplayed PCs. But I think the statement that they can control who moves what along the entire north road is a little over the top. Unless Kurac really wants to tangle with Salarr, Kadius, and the people buying whatever goods those Houses are moving (which seems like a bad idea), they won't. There are four Great Merchant Houses, the reason why they're all Great is because they're -all- HUGE, RICH, and POWERFUL, and content not to step on each other's toes to upset that balance. Before making statements like "omgz Kurac is so 1337 and uber and we'll ownz j00", consider the virtual factors like political connections, vnpc guard and merc forces, economic power, and so on. Kurac has their own fortress and inside it they reign supreme, but I think their influence drops exponentially elsewhere. In Tuluk and Allanak they're no more powerful than the other three merchant houses, and Tuluk and Allanak is where all the people and all the money is.

Still, I don't see what blowing up Luir's would do. I'd much rather see Tuluk topple that pansy Tek's tower and subject the southlands to the monotonous bardic competitions all we northerners have to deal with.  :twisted:

[Cuusardo]

If you want to see something blow up or get obliterated, why not do something about it ICly rather than yammering on and debating about it on the GDB?

[Pantoufle]

You know what's as annoying as people who supposedly "whine" about parts of the game world?  People who whine about those people.

Look.  This is a discussion board.  We all have different views and different opinions (thank god!)  Everything that has ever been said here has already been said, and everything that ever will be said likely already has been as well.  Every topic has been hashed and rehashed a million times over.  One thing you can count on is for every topic to come up again (and again).  Expect it, in fact.

And you know there is always the option of not reading what bothers you..

If someone's statements about Tuluk offends you, don't read them.  If you're sick of players saying "Let's burn Allanak!" you can always read a different thread.

[flurry]

I fail to see the relevance behind "player driven" efforts and Luirs' status.  

What player driven effort can do, player driven effort can undo.  That's one big reason that it's relevant.

[Cuusardo]

There's a difference between complaining and pointing out ways to go about things.

[Anonymous]

Cursing someone, flaming them, and belittling others just because they have different opinions than you is not the way to go about an intelligent, thought provoking discussion.

I would really appreciate it if for people to get back on topic and discuss the original discussion at hand. I don't want this thread to be destroyed and locked by the staff, because I think it can be very useful to us as players.

If you have anything nice to say about someone, just bite your tongue and don't say anything at all. Really, it's not that hard.

[Foamy007]

I dont like seeing threads locked any more than anyone else, but what is there to talk about. Theres more underneath the sand than most ppl realize. They just have to find it.

I am simply tired of seeing players sit in a tavern for 3 days IRL straight and do nothing but talk with anyone who comes in.

[HardCarbon]

I dont like seeing threads locked any more than anyone else, but what is there to talk about. Theres more underneath the sand than most ppl realize. They just have to find it.

I am simply tired of seeing players sit in a tavern for 3 days IRL straight and do nothing but talk with anyone who comes in.

Why?  are they doing anything that hurts you?

[Bestatte]

Erm, how would you know they were there for 3 days straight, if you weren't also there for 3 days straight?

Just curious

[Underdark Song]

This thread is simply a cry for a major RP event.  Too many bored folks out there discontented with low player populations.

[Foamy007]

Ah nevermind. People will never understand. Just blow the whole place, and in five minutes you will have everyone whining again about wanting Tuluk or Allanak or Luirs back because its TOO dangerous out there. Blah blah blah. Im out of this discussion.

[Mean_Old_Bastard]

Make it happen.

There have been several OOC discussion threads.
Even discussion. Make it happen.

Die trying. Fail a few times. Then do it.


I dare you.

[jcarter]

I think what the OP wants is more tension in the playerbase. Perhaps more open skirmishes between the two cities. Blowing up something and another city claiming credit for it creates a lot of rippling effects. It could create a sort of Armageddon 'red scare', where you weren't sure if your best buddy was actually secretly working for the other city. I don't think that one city would take too kindly to it either and would want to strike back. PCs could be employed to go onto these 'undercover missions'.

It seems like a fun enough idea and don't really see a problem with it. You don't need to level the entire city. Just blowing up a popular shop could be enough to create this sort of effect.

[jmordetsky]

EDITED.

I was drunk.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't know about blowing up a City-State, but I do think that more open conflict between the two would be interesting. Spill some of that fitlhy northern blood! I'm talking fully player driven, of course. It's amazing how one shot can spark a war. Someone finds out that some 'Nakkis killing a few Tuluki loggers, they might come down and kill a few southern hunters as retaliation. And it escalates!

Or something. I'm not in a position to start it myself, right now, but maybe one day.

[Bogre]

For all the Kurac bantering:

Kurac is like the Spacer's guild in Dune. They help hold everything together, because they've worked to put a presence everywhere. You say they're powerful? Hell yeah, they got a foothold everywhere. That's what comes from a -lot- of time and effort, fighting tooth and nail, and a lot of pc's dieing for the House. I've never even played a Kuraci, but I know they don't sit around and say, "Lets build an outpost" and have it poofed to them by the IMMs. They have to work for their gains, just like every other clan.

As to destroying one or the other city-state, I think its a great idea if it comes about in an IC manner. We shouldn't say, "Hey, I want to consolodate the playerbase so I can have more friends for my cool southern shindigs, so I'm going to ask the staff to just level Tuluk."

It should come around through IC means...out of the top of my head I'll make a scenario: A high-level Jihaen templar finds out the funding for the Allanaki army has gone down drastically, ending up in the drop in troop numbers, morale, and health as Allanak suffers a three-year famine. Tuluk, on the other hand, recently pushed back two allied desert elf tribes who were trying to take farmland around Tuluk, and the numbers in the conscripted corps has never been higher. He petitions the Sun King, telling him the attack will never have a better chance of succeeding. So the army of the North mobilizes and gets to Luirs before word reaches the South, who's tired and demoralized army wearily prepare for battle. The main Tuluki force splits, sending one third to occupy the area around Allanak and seize the farming villages while two-thirds of the Sun Legion shock troops prepare to assault the main facility. (This would all go through RP and things, every bit of it.) But Allanak strikes back, a unit of Scorpions led by a blue-robe manage to sneak behind and strike at a cache of supplies and seige weapons, harming the Tulukian's ability to storm the city. The city is besieged from the north and west, at the main gate. The attack at the main gate bogs down, with horrendous casualties on both sides. The attack from the north breaches the ill-defended wall, and the northerners enter the 'Rinth in force. But all is not well, for vicious attacks come, with horrendous magicks of rogue mages battering the ill-prepared force. Meanwhile, the gate has fallen and the city is being stormed, blood running through the streets. The Jihaen, leading his troops, falls in combat with an Borsail Wyvern Lieutenant, managing to stall the impetus of the attack.

And blah blah, I won't end this. Maybe the Tuluki's attack succeeds and they take the city, while Muk Utep (who has been hiding in an argosy all along) smites down Tek's Tower and engages in a fierce battle, that lashes the area. Or maybe the Allanaki's pull together to force a retreat from the Tulukis, creating peace for a time. Or maybe they summon some great strength, pursueing and utterly breaking the invading army...leaving Tuluk underdefended and ripe to pluck.

Something like that would be far more interesting and involve so much more RP and time and thought than just saying, 'lets explode Tuluk and like say gith sorcerors did it'