Let's blow up the world.

[Yokunama]

But seriously, Allanak would have to win.

Thats right!

[Cenghiz]

There is tension between both cities.. But as always, I can't find anything more brilliant than what AC has said. (No I won't quote, scroll back and read it.)
If a ceasefire becomes possible, it will be fun.

Note: I'm also disturbed of this 'burn, remove, destroy' trend. Is everybody's sign Scorpio in this board?

[Yokunama]

If a ceasefire becomes possible, it will be fun.

Then what? A big "spice" party in Allanak?

[LoD]

Allanak and Tuluk are both important parts of the Zalanthas game world.

There are many different people who play Armageddon, and Tuluk represents a change of pace for those people who want to experience a role and environment a little different from the typical southlands.  I've seen many sheep herded into the belief that Tuluk should be burned to the ground simply to swell the player numbers in Allanak.  That seems like an awful selfish and short sighted thing to suggest.

As others have pointed out, Allanak would not be the only choice for players to move should Tuluk fall for some reason.  Many of you probably haven't played long enough to know Tuluk for how it used to be prior to its destruction and had the chance to play in an environment with two adult city-states interacting with one another.

Tuluk is still young, and growing.  It's still licking its wounds from the last utter destruction, occupation, liberation and rebuilding it's endured.  Much of what happens there now is going to define a great many things in the years to come because it is so maleable.  When the Sun King was in full power, and his servants and followers were in full strength, it was a different scene than most of you are presented with today.

My suggestion is to be patient.  So many of you are quick to say, "Burn Tuluk, I don't understand!  It's lame.  It's easy.  It's full of bunnyhuggers!"  Why don't you spend the energy you're putting into regurgitating these posts and change what don't like about it.  Spend time drawing people together, train them, make political contacts, get financial and martial backing, campaign for your glorious crusade, march on the city-state and see what happens.

Anything less than pursuing those goals would undermine the actions countless players before you have taken to preserve an area of the world rich in history, culture and potential so many of you are crying to have removed abruptly and without effort.  

I suppose an easier way to say what I mean is, "Put up or shut up."  I, for one, am pretty sick and tired of people whining on the boards and calling for Tuluk's elimination.  A lot of work has been put into this area that you may or may not understand, and that ignorance isn't a license to campaign for its simple destruction.  You don't like it, do something about it in game.  You may find yourself having fun.

-LoD

[Bestatte]

I'm one of the folks who likes Tuluk. I like Allanak too. I like the tribal non-city groups and yes, even on occasion, I like Red Storm.

What I like most, is that we currently have CHOICES. Just like in real life, where I can pick Charmin for its softness, or Scott for its sandpapery reminder that my ass is a living part of my body, and several dozen other varieties inbetween, I _like_ that I can pick one place one character, and try something drastically different the next time around.

Tuluk -is- drastically different from Allanak, on too many levels to count. But that's what makes it so much fun to play there. And it's what makes it so much fun to play in Nak.

[amoeba]

To be fair 'blowing up Tuluk' and 'closing down Tuluki nobility' and some of those other suggestions in your list are really pretty much the same sentiment.

Yes, but it's so much more dramatic sounding that way

Oh, and I agree 100% with LoD

[Jakahri]

Allanak and Tuluk are both important parts of the Zalanthas game world.

I disagree. Having two major city-states simply detracts from the game in a way that splits the player-base up needlessly.

I've seen many sheep herded into the belief that Tuluk should be burned to the ground simply to swell the player numbers in Allanak.  That seems like an awful selfish and short sighted thing to suggest.

That is not what this thread is about. I stated that I don't actually care which city is burned, as long as -one- of them is effectively taken out with only a maze of ruins in its place.

On a further note, anyone who wishes to further bash Tuluk should start their own thread. I'm asking you all politely now to stay on target. Thanks.

Many of you probably haven't played long enough to know Tuluk for how it used to be prior to its destruction and had the chance to play in an environment with two adult city-states interacting with one another.

I've been around since before the second war, though most other players might not have. The point is, there cannot be much "interaction" between city-states if the players invovled are too few in number. Perhaps when the playerbase reaches a level of consistency with at least 100 characters online as an average there would be enough room for two major cities?



I don't -care- which city is destroyed. It would likely be easier to eliminate Tuluk, do to its extensive set of ruins already that can merely be doubled or tripled. Allanak, on the other hand, has the rinth, which could become the surviving portion of the city along with a few ruins, and become the central network for thugs and loners. Instead of seeing 5 players in a city, you could see 10, or 15, or even 20 at NON-PEAK hours. It's possible with only -one- major city. Hell, we might even seen more human tribals to help balance out the sickly number of d.elves which constantly roam the lands.

I've had the chance to see both cities interact with each other. It's nice. It's fun. It's diluted. It is diluted because there are too few players on either side to make the game as interesting as it can be. Have Tuluk rever to desert tribes with an -actual- Muk Utep npc leading them into raids on Allanak, and all of a sudden you have a horde of rpt's which can be scheduled as monthly events. Have the remaining last vestiges of Tektolnes's band of robed templars attempt assassinations on the heirarchy of Tuluk, and all of a sudden you have a "not so bunny-huggish city" due to the added notion of watching your back 24/7. I see the possibilities without two cities, and I'm just loving it right now.

The Twin Warlocks.

The Tribes of Gol Krathu.

Muk Utep.

As.

An.

Actual.

Npc.

That you can FOLLOW. You can help Muk Utep the warrior mage destroy the vile city of Allanak and purge the lands of Vrun Driath! Ride. Ride on. Ride atop the fallen horses of Gol Krathu as the Sun King's fallen templar and destroy all in your path. Fan out. Repopulate. Procreate. Instigate. Guerilla warfare on Allanak has begun! Assassination attempts on the robes run rampant as your forces continuously hound them from the city alleys and sand dunes!

Tektolnes dead.

Black robes shattered.

Rinth is your new home.

You play a fallen blue robe turned assassin/mage who has been sent on a mission by the fractured heirarchy to kidnap the one of the head members of the Lirathan Order and splay their ravaged body across the northern span as a warning sign to the northerners.

Tribes are flourishing.

Numbers are rising.

You are a Jul Tavan taking advantage of the new trades.

Suddenly, gaming in the desert becomes a tad bit easier, as you will most assuredly always have someone there to have your back.

Or, you could just go train, eat, sleep, have the occasional mudsex, then quit out. And talk in your sleep about being sneaky and conniving. Rawr.

I just don't think I'd ever sleep if one of the cities were destroyed. I'd likely lock myself in the room and never quit.

[Alnir]

Note: I'm also disturbed of this 'burn, remove, destroy' trend. Is everybody's sign Scorpio in this board?

I'm a Gemini :3

[Cuusardo]

Anyone who thinks there's no conflict between Allanak and Tuluk is missing out on a LOT.  Chances are you're not in the right roles, or getting into the right situations to see it.  I mean seriously, if you're playing some grubby independent who does nothing but hunt, collect materials, craft and sell, of COURSE you're going to miss out on such things.  If you're off playing a tribal then yes, you'll miss out on a lot.  If you're not playing a human, chances are you're missing out on a lot of it as well.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

[WarriorPoet]

Bleh. I'm all for blowing shit up, but if we blew up Tuluk, where would all the weenies run when Allanak got too hardcore for them?

I would definately prefer the playerbase to be more concentrated, but I don't think blowing up Tuluk is the answer, as all you would have then is a resurgence of the Rebellion, where even I might split out of Allanak to play.

-WP

[Ghost]

Hmm.. WP is right.

We should definetely blow up Allanak.

Yeah.. Sounds all too right.  So we can play a rough rebel for resurrection!

[Penumbra]

Nope. I think destroying either city would be too harsh. To many RP possibilities would be ruined.
I like the game world as it is.

[Anonymous]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

A lot of work has been put into this area that you may or may not understand, and that ignorance isn't a license to campaign for its simple destruction.

Gee, thanks.  Not every opinion contrary to yours is born out of ignorance.  I know tons of work on both the staff and playerbase's part has been put into Tuluk.  If Allanak was the 'blown up' city then a lot of the subtlety and other facets of Tuluk would become better realized due to the concentration of players.  I honestly don't want to see either area truly destroyed just less division of specific roles and the resulting reduction of roleplay opportunities when the playerbase is spread out.

Since the return of Tuluk I've found city-roles to be lacking in a strong number of peers on each level of society.  I'd really like to go back to the days we had three, four years ago when on a nightly basis using the listen skill in the Trader's Inn was nearly impossible due to how much was going on in that room from just the assembled nobility.

Telling people to put up or shut up does little to solve a problem that boils down to only having 48 players logged in at peak time to cover desert elf tribes, human tribes, 'rinthi PCs, Red Storm, Kurac in Luir's, independent hunters and traders based in a city, mercenaries, nobles, noble guards, noble aides, merchants house players, merchant house guards, templars, militia, and magickers.  You can't make there be more people logged in and this boils down to simple numbers to me.

If we had a larger active playerbase I would be on the other side of this argument, though I suspect it wouldn't even exist if that were the case.

[Cuusardo]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's there.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

A few people bitching on the GDB isn't a noteable percentage of the playerbase.

[amoeba]

There has been much talk about how the player base is spread too thin and things need to be destroyed or closed to force them together. At the start I want to say my personal opinion is that this is a fallacy.  I have seen good player counts most nights, and just having more people concentrated in one area does not mean it's better than when the playerbase is spread thin.   I for one have had some of the best time as a delf, where I saw virtually no one for days, even when the player count was high.  I spent RL weeks where I never entered a city, even Luirs and still had a blast.  I have also been in crowded taverns where no one did anything, just sat around and stared at everyone.   I saw no correlation between quanity and quality.

That being said I see a couple of potential issues with only one major playing base. One thing I brought up before, and have encountered personally. What do you do with a character, a long played one, who is deep into to numerous plots, knows everyone, and many secrets.  This person dies.  I shudder at the thought of having to reenter the very same place as a nobody with no knowledge, but still have all the same plots, and people surrounding me.  Having two isolated playing bases provides the distance that I think is required at times to readjust.  You stick everyone in one city this makes it hard, the character has no memory, but the player surely does.

Also where is the variety in having essentially one flavor. Sure we have red storm, and Luirs, But Red Storm is a ghost town in respect to PC's  and Luirs is a specialty town,  plus if the argument is to consolidate, then all the focus would be on the one town, one flavor.  I'm for more options not less.  IMHO this will attract more people.

To me, removing one area so that you can have everybody together in one big dysfunctional family is short sighted.  You want to make this fun and interesting, then -try- to do something IG.  As LoD said in a different post, all this energy pressed into the GDB, damn if you put as much energy into doing something IG, instead of just arguing that someone else should do it, things would be a blast. Who knows maybe you will accomplish something.

[Malifaxis]

Hey, I got an idea...

Quit bitching about it on the GDB, and have your character start leaning towards doing this.  Blow up the damn city by effort, not by a vote.

If you can't, well, gee... it's a FREAKIN CITY.  They don't die easy.

Make a damn warfrenzied templar... a hellacious zealot who knows that his King must rule all in a more direct fashion.

There's a reason there are two cities.



I say up the political intrigue and assassination attempts.  Make playing a leader in a city a deadly thing.  Keep both cities, but up the damn tension between them.  They are not friendly, but people happily and freely travel from place to place with almost no encounter of societal tension/cityism.

The playerbase is just fine without consolidating and ruining years of work by players because your f'me isn't getting enough attention.

[LoD]

CRW writes:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If a noteable percentage of the playerbase isn't seeing it, what is the benefit?

This would be much more applicable to the removal of isolated tribes and villages than a city-state containing 4-7 clans at any one given time within its walls.  If we were even going to comprise a list, Tuluk would be second to last on my list next to Allanak and a whole lot of names would precede them both.

I honestly don't want to see either area truly destroyed just less division of specific roles and the resulting reduction of roleplay opportunities when the playerbase is spread out.

Since the return of Tuluk I've found city-roles to be lacking in a strong number of peers on each level of society. I'd really like to go back to the days we had three, four years ago when on a nightly basis using the listen skill in the Trader's Inn was nearly impossible due to how much was going on in that room from just the assembled nobility.

People follow leaders.  They don't follow immobile objects like cities.  This game has a cycle, and you'll see that the population will fluctuate from organization to organization, from city to city, from indoors to outdoors with a natural pulse.  One of the major contributiing factors to population density are good PC leaders.

Good PC leaders will recruit other PC's, train them and keep them interested enough in the game not to go and get themselves needlessly killed out of boredom.  When I played a Merchant House agent, I had 37 active members in my clan at its peak - people who would play at least weekly, with about half of that number playing daily.  When I played a mercenary leader, we regularly had 5-10 on at any given time and 15-20 people for RPT's.

Many of these high profile PC's gain the attention of the Immortals, and are often given an invitation (or apply) for a staff position.  Immortals want them because they play often, have a good grasp of the game and seem to want to provide fun to other players.  Players want to become staff because they want to help the game in ways they can't as a player, and because some may feel it's akin to a final step.

What does this have to do with population concentrations?  When high profile leader PC's are elevated to staff members, I am both happy for them and saddened at the same time.  I am glad they get to do some things they may have wanted to do, contribute in a way they couldn't have before and experience another part of Armageddon.  I am sad because the duties of a staff member often preclude you from being able to continue your integral role in the playerbase as a PC leader.

This is another large contributing factor to what you may witness as a thinning of the populace, because PC leaders attract other PC's to them.  When you remove those elements and make them less constant, then those players attracted to them begin to wander a bit and don't hold as tightly to a given area.  I'm sure the Immortals and players can both agree that when a good PC leader dies in a clan, the clan will often begin to splinter and fall apart.

This, more than the presence of two city-states, is a larger contributor to the concentration levels of the playerbase.  It's also summertime, and a lot of players are out of school and don't have access to the internet (though this is probably becoming less common), or are on vacations, trips, enjoying things like the sunshine.

-LoD

[Halaster]

No.

[mansa]

I wish Tuluk was smaller, even moreso than it is now.

I think that the Poet's Circle should be the centre of the city, inside the 'red sun commons' and that the theater should be in the centre of that.  I think that the tribal market should also be in the red sun commons, and everything should be centred around the mass of people in the city.  In the commons.  Because the red sun commons, right now, is just a big open road that has nothing realistic in it.

That's what I wish.  I find it strange that the poet's circle is so far away from everything.  Other than that, I think most things are fine.

[Twilight]

I remember playing eight or nine years ago and I was really excited to see over fifteen people on at a time.  We had two cities.  And it worked out just fine.  Part of the mystery is that you don't know everyone.  If you lump them all into one city and a few tribals, pretty soon if you have a character six months, you know all the other "public" characters (ie not secretly surviving in rinth, a blackwing outpost or a sorcerer's cave).  As it is, unless you travel a lot, you don't know all these people.  Which makes for surprises.  Which is good.

I've always wanted to see more open conflict between Allanak and Tuluk.  Not few hour, super massive battles in a win or loose big situation.  But rather sustained conflict.

Take SimDesert and create SimBattlefield with it.  A huge, real battlefield, where a Scorpion can kill a few Legionairres so that an Allanaki unit might advance a couple of rooms.  Or a northern war slave could earn fame defeating a heavily guarded Nakki captain.  Ebb and flow stuff, where PCs could go and get involved in a real war.  But thats just my dream.  You take out a city, you take out any possibility.

And IC'ly...I think its obvious that to truly destroy one of the cities you need to destory its sorcerer king (look at what happened to Tuluk).  If you destroyed one of them, you destroy the balance that keeps one of them from taking over the entire Known (and unknown?) world and turning you all into zombie slaves.  Not that I would mind playing a zombie sex-me pleasure slave.  Just not for all eternity.

[jmordetsky]

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

I still feel this way. *kicks tek in the teeth*

[Delirium]

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

I still feel this way. *kicks tek in the teeth*

Conflict heavily influenced by player's actions, at that.

I seriously think that this is part of the gritty charm of Kurac out at the Outpost.  Sure, there's powerful characters backing the Merchant House, but things are more leveled out for an edgy, survivalistic feel.  Everyone that's a part of the House has a specific purpose and function.  If they fail at that function, the House is affected.  There are no silk-clad nobles roaming about, and even the highest dignitaries are often in sandcloth and linens.  There is a constant need for certain people, duties, and actions, and a constant feel of actually managing to affect the gameworld in some small way.  Players are still cogs in the wheel, but they have a real sense that "without me, things might have happened differently."

I wish we could translate that somehow to the majority of the city-states.  Focus more on commoner-commoner struggles for power and influence and less on the grandiose power of the Nobility.  Having the nobility is a good foil for the dirtiness of the common folk in theory, but in practice it tends to bring a real sense of luxury into the gameworld that often feels out of place.

[Armaddict]

All I'll say after reading the first page of this, is that I like when one side is significantly weaker than the other.  It makes an underdog, and promotes conflict...one trying to weaken the stronger, the stronger trying to finally eliminate the weaker.

The struggle always made it more interesting.  I played a -ton- of characters in the north when the rebellion and occupation was going on, and have withdrawn for the most part since shortly after it came back.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Tuluk is -far- weaker than Allanak. Believe that.

I would not be against the destruction of empire-cities and the insurgence of village-based kingdoms or alliances.

Kurac will always be here. You need to understand this. They will never go away. They are easily the most harrassed group even ICly in the world, and they -still- maintain their Outpost AND emporiums in every city. They also produce and sell -everything-, literally, unlike any other Merchant House or Noble House.

Yes, I -am- a Kuraci fan, even though I'm not one currently. I always will be. But what I am saying is not fandomainiam speaking, it's a fact. Every single organization in the world could fall and Kurac would not, because they are simply more adaptive.

Everyone knows it ICly. And you know it too, even you Kurac-haters.

[Delirium]

And you know it too, even you Kurac-haters.

That's WHY they hate Kurac.  Jealousy.

But I have to plink down my support again for less focus on all-powerful empires and nobility and more warring factions and struggle that's low-down and dirty, something that most all commoners can sink their grubby claws into.  Will the empires dissolve and nobility fall?  Not likely, though with IC effort anything is possible.

Regardless of whether that happens, I would still like to see a general movement of the playerbase toward more "low end" plots, commoner-commoner (conflict between merchant Houses, perhaps a smaller one trying to rise toward the top, or a new one coming into existence, competing mercenary warbands, visible turf wars between gangs forming in the cities (and not just the 'rinth), a tribe of city elves attempting a rise into prominence and wealth..) and less "high end" plots (take over teh werld!11, kill sorceror of doom, omg evil magickal creature that can destroy legions of soldiers, etc, etc..).  Not that there's anything wrong with high end plots, and they can be lots of fun, but they've been done before.  Let's focus on something else.