Half Elf Race

[Qetesh]

We've noticed a great many applications where the race is half-elf and yet the character is identified as a human or elf. The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc. Some of us oppose this because the ability to have a character trying to "pass" adds a potential source of conflict/tension, but it seems as though some players are doing this because they want what they perceive as (what may or may not be actual) code advantages of the race.

What do you, the players, think?

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

What code-advantages do half-elves really have, in your perception?

[Barzalene]

It's one thing to say woman or man, and another to say elf or human. You can be a half-elf man or woman. you cannot be a half-elf elf or human.

[RunningMountain]

Wisdom and agility are huge.  A half-elf gets higher agility and wisdom then humans which makes them learn faster and simply be faster in combat.  This is the main reason players pick a half-elf and then show nothing as being a half-elf in their descriptions, keywords, or roleplay.  I myself have picked half-elf and gone around as the full elf, and have gone full human, but my roleplay would eventually reveal that he was very strange for a human or elf.  

Now, If I played it as a full human I would definitely include SOMETHING physically, because I see the elf blood as being a dominant trait, you could even put this in the documentation so people would have to include something such as the pointed ears.  Now when I did this but wanted to play it with a human sdesc I would include it in the mdesc but conceal it like with really curly hair that covered his ears, that way if someone IG moved the hair or cut it, I would be revealed as a half-elf, and would emote it of course.  Some people would not.  So having them include something about their elven blood in their mdesc when they try to submit for a brown-haired man as a half-elf race would be the best I think.


Just the way I see it.
-RM

[Larrath]

Also because I am a firm believer that new players should not be playing half-elves due to their inherent difficulty, I propose that half-elves are made a karma 1 race.  It might help to stop at least most of the people doing that.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think human-looking half-elves or (probably more likely) elf-looking half-elves should still be allowed. But they should be a special app.

[RunningMountain]

I totally agree with that.  Half-elves are very hard to play.  Even harder then d-elves in my opinion, because with a d-elf you have a tribe and are pretty much forced into a way of play with their docs, with a half-elf all you can go by is the help file, and no new players read those anyways, they just want to get in game.  And then you have a bunch of half-elves that are just played like humans.

-RM

[Nao]

bleh, don't make them karma, please!  (I want to play them too, love them, even if I'm a new player) PLEASE!

I loved my breed and I want more of that, even with no karma...

I really think that this should be allowed... put elf or human in your short even if you are a half elf... The docs say that most half-elves can pass as either human or elf, and I think most half elves would TRY to pass as either one, too, because of all the stuff they have to face as half-elves... so if you made this impossible by code, that would be against the game world... and I'd hate it because I want to play those..

if this is really a huge problem, maybe accept only half-elf applications that have some clear hints in their full descriptions? or maybe they HAVE to describe the ears (but ppl would have to pay more attention to whether those are actually visible or not because they are hidden under hair, a helmet, a bandana or something)

I've been planning on one of those for some time now, I'd be issed if you took them away...
Óne of the nice things in this game is that you have a wide race selection even as a new player, I love it... and I wanna play my kank-riding but trying to hide it cause he passes as an elf otherwise breed!

[Cuusardo]

I think that more strictness on the part of the staff when the character is being reviewed for approval would help this out.  And if a player is found to be twinking by consistently picking the half elf race, and roleplaying the character as actually being human or elf, the staff could consider removing that option from that player's list of available races.

I also think that on the players' part, it should be required that something should definitely be put into the background about the half elf striving to pass as either human or elf if that is what the player is trying to do with the character.  I am also not opposed to half elf being a karma race, say at the level of desert elf karma.

[Delirium]

My first character was a half-elf.  I like to think I did a good job.  

Please don't make them Karma-restricted.

Half-elves are attractive to me because of the inherent conflict that comes with them.  Their coded advantages don't seem all that much, especially since having low strength and endurance can be very irritating.  Sure, they might learn more quickly, but any decently long-lived character is going to be good at what they do, if they've been using their abilities.  The one thing they really have going for them is agility, which admittedly rocks if you're a combat or stealth-based character.

More on topic, I think it's a fine line to walk.  If you don't indicate in your sdesc that you're half-elven you should definitely include some hints in your mdesc.  Never say OUTRIGHT that your character is a human or an elf, because that'd be lying.. but you can suggest that they look human or elven.  The difference, you ask?

This lanky female's muscles are ropy and compact, lending her a slimmer profile than the average human.  Her sloe-eyed gaze is set beneath arched brows and serves as the highlight to her angular features.

Notice I never said "woman", "human", and I included elvish traits - being slender, having slanted eyes (sloe-eyed means dark almond-shaped eyes), and an angular face.  Is she a skinny human or a half-elf?

That's different than outright calling her a human woman, or giving her completely human features and picking half-elf.  

I would go so far as to say that any character with the race of "half-elf" should have either an elf and a human as a parent, or two half-elves as parents.  If the character is only "quarter elf", i.e. a half-elven and human parent, or "quarter human", i.e. a half-elven and elven parent, then they should be of race "human" or "elf" with some very faint half-elven traits.  Maybe their ears are very slightly pointed but they're otherwise human, or maybe they're a bit shorter and bulkier but otherwise elvish.  Pick the dominant race, but hint at and roleplay their impure blood.

[Qetesh]

I'd like to reiterate that we are simply having a discussion and would like to get the player opinion on this.  As it stands half-elves are allowed and do pose as humans or elves. Also there is no talk of them becoming a karma race.  

We would just like to get the players opinion on how we can keep them true to the breed of half-elf and not what people –perceive- as a statistical jump (which may or may not be the case) by calling them human/elf as an avoidance of the racism and difficulties that should be attributed to them without rolelaying that aspect.



I personally am not fond of forcing a half-elf tag on them, but prefer the player to hint to it in their main desc, if they are trying to hide their lineage. I think that half-elves posing as humans or elves make for good conflict, plots and individual rp if played correctly.

[Nao]

I personally am not fond of forcing a half-elf tag on them, but prefer the player to hint to it in their main desc, if they are trying to hide there lineage. I think that half-elves posing as humans or elves make for good conflict, plots and individual rp if played correctly.

Then you could make those hints a rule and don't approve anything that looks completely like a human or elf but has half-elf as a race..?

Good if they stay karma-less, you really scared me now..o.O

[Anonymous]

I'm of the opinion that if, through continual breeding by your part-elven ancestors with one race or another, your visible physical traits are all one race or the other that you would have also lost most of the physiological traits of that race as well.

In other words, if you are so far removed from the elven blood in your lineage that you look human you probably have a human's denser bones and agility as well.  It doesn't make sense to me that the human genes would dominate your outward appearance but internally you were more elven.

If you want to be a super-secret half-elf, then roll a human or an elf and put in your background that you are actually a little part elvish.  The roleplay can still be the same, but you avoid 'assess -v' ambiguity which puts everyone in an awkward position and also don't appear to be trying to get the best of both worlds.

[amoeba]

I'll echo Deliium's post.   I also played a half-elf for my first one. I love playing them, it's fun to try and get into thier personality.  

Do not make them karma, please

In so far as the half-elf trying to pass as human or elf, it's a valid avenue. But they should have some at least subtle indication that they may not be what they appear to be.  Having the tag half-elf would negate being able to even attempt this.   It does not need to be special-app'ed, I would think that trying to hide who you are as a breed shouldn't be all that unusual, and it is very easy IG to find out the truth.  We have the application process to weed out suspect apps. I have played one tying to pass as one or the other.  I would have had no problem getting an app kicked back saying you are being too subtle, turn it up a bit.  That is what the app process is there for.

edit --grr.. I take too long to type. Xygax already negated some of this.

[Xygax]

Making half-elves a karma race isn't even on the table, guys.  Don't worry about it.

-- X

[Forty Winks]

Alright, so here's what -I- percieve as the most likely point here...

But before that, I'd just like to point out that, although distinguishing between helf-elves and humans/elves is important in a discussion like this, I think no matter how human-like to elven-like a half-elf appears, if the half-elf doesn't -roleplay/act- like a half-elf, then the point is meaningless.

Personally, I think a half-elf leaning more towards human appearances or elven appearances is fine if there are hints (albeit subtle ones) in the desc. But I do think that the player apping for such a character should closely examine the reason why.

The main point that I see in playing half-elves, and the reason why people likely choose this race alot, is due to the added bonus of alot more rp opportunities. You can pick a human or elf, and still be able to accomplish alot of your goals fit in your concepts, but...(how can I say this...) you won't start off with conflict and roleplay right off the bat. Hmm, let me try again. What I'm trying to get at is that by picking a half-elf, you are already set apart from other PCs the moment you begin your character, while a human or elf would need to draw attention to themselves through  their various vices and virtues with their roleplay, which may take awhile. By drawing attention to yourself by being a half-elf, you've placed yourself in a situation that can generally start roleplay more quickly than by being a "normal" race. This is likely not the motivation for choosing a half-elf for everyone, but it seems to be a large motivation, if albeit subconscious choice.

Also, going with my previous point, because the half-elven persona exists in the first place (all fletched out in the documents) it tends to draw alot of (newer) players who might be unable to come up with good concepts quickly. It could likely be easier to simply go along with the half-elven guidelines already set out, and build a character around that. Because it appears easier to create a half-elf concept, more players might be attracted to the race.

And, when your PC has nothing to do, you have suggestions already laid out for you to follow, as well as good, logical reasons for such actions like wandering out in the desert, and travelling alot. (a notion for adventure and discovery I'm sure many new and even some veteran players are attracted to.)

Bottom line so far is: because the half-elf character might appear easy to create, and maybe even exciting due to their constant internal and external conflict, many players might choose to pick that race.

This is speaking strictly through my own reasoning, and might not even be correct.

[Seeker]

No use of "man", "woman", "human", or "elf" in the sdescs.

Nothing in the mdesc that -says- that they are an elf or a human.  Careful wording is the trick.

"A bit taller than the average human," is fine.
"The stocky frame on this male elf..." is not.

The mdesc doesn't have to scream "tainted, nasty Breed!", but it cannot state that the character is something else, either.  

The fact is that no matter how close a Breed looks to either the human or the elven side of her heritage, there is always going to be -something- that will give them away if inspected close enough.  Some NPC built-in coded reactions to half-elves make that clear. Something can always give them away if looked at close enough.

It should be impossible for an intimate lover to NOT know that their partner is a Breed without a whole lot of active denial going on.

I guess the rest is in the hands of the player.  Actively working to disquise the betraying features; remembering that every half-elf is inherently mentally instable with the bi-polar twistiness described in the docs, etc.

It's a fun role, and a straight-from-the-box great way to have a dynamic inner-life for a PC.  

Seeker

[Forty Winks]

We've noticed a great many applications where the race is half-elf and yet the character is identified as a human or elf. The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc. Some of us oppose this because the ability to have a character trying to "pass" adds a potential source of conflict/tension, but it seems as though some players are doing this because they want what they perceive as (what may or may not be actual) code advantages of the race.

What do you, the players, think?

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

What code-advantages do half-elves really have, in your perception?

Oops, I've forgotten about the original reason for this thread.  :roll:

When creating such a character, I think it's best to first examine -why- you want your character to look more human/elven and not a visible representation of a "true" half-elf. If it's for purely OOC reasons, then you're defeating the purpose of having a half-elven character.

Anyways, I'll slightly contradict myself from the point made in my previous post about making characters appear more human/elven looking. I think stricter regulation in half-elven apps could be of benefit. There should be a few defining characteristic that should be laid out for half-elven characters, and be required in apps. The manner in which the player adds such characteristic to the character can be done in any manner as long as it is apparent right away (or even with -close- examination). What these characteristics are of half-elves can be determined by the staff and players and be mentioned in the half-elven documents and anywhere necessary. Aside from that, I don't there is much that can be done on the staff's part to ensure that half-elves are played like half-elves besides more extreme measures. (like making the race a karma race)

By making half-elves more apparently obvious (depending on how much effort the player went into describing their character) it is easier for other PCs to react accordingly to half-elves, and thus deter potential abusers from simply getting the coded "benefits" without effort.

Although I say that it'll be "apparently obvious" to pick a half-elf out of a crowd, if the player describes the character well enough, people can still get off with passing as humans or elves (depending on the characteristics of half-elves is required in the description) so such concepts can still very well be doable.

[moab]

This is an interesting issue.  I love both Muls and Half-elves because of their split, crushed and ruined psyche.  Striving with inner demons and often failing thought sometimes succeeding is so much cooler than working on your sword arm.

But - in the case of half-elves: what if the half-elf doesn't even know he's a half-elf?  How could you expect them to have conflict. Of course they might, but possibly they will never know.  No drama.  Maybe they are robbed of the that particular joy, but it's reasonable.

If the policy is changed so that half-elves must reveal themselves to be so, don't mandate it so that it must be in their sdesc, perhaps.  How about just reference the shape of their eyes, their angular features, their ears or their uncanny height or thinness (or vice versa if passing as an elf) in their mDesc?

That way, any extremely tall and gaunt human might fall under the suspicion of mixed blood regardless as would any short, round-eyed elf.

[Forty Winks]

The apparent "coded-advantages" that a half-elf as I think is likely the fact that a character can have a better dexterity and wisdom than humans, and better endurance and strength than elves.

From the point of view of a player that might care for these things, having a character with better than average agility and wisdom and decent strength and endurance is better than having a character with either alot of agility/wisdom and little strength/endurance (thus a character than can't get involved with alot of physical things) or a character that is average in stats.

A half-elf likely appears better than a human, and better than an elf in strength and endurance.

That is the most likely reason someone might choose a half-elf for the "coded-advantages.

[O]

No use of "man", "woman", "human", or "elf" in the sdescs.

Nothing in the mdesc that -says- that they are an elf or a human. Careful wording is the trick.

Hmm...I had been presuming this was the case anyway! Otherwise yeah, it's just an OOC lie isn't it?

[Bestatte]

I think that more strictness on the part of the staff when the character is being reviewed for approval would help this out.  And if a player is found to be twinking by consistently picking the half elf race, and roleplaying the character as actually being human or elf, the staff could consider removing that option from that player's list of available races.

I also think that on the players' part, it should be required that something should definitely be put into the background about the half elf striving to pass as either human or elf if that is what the player is trying to do with the character.  I am also not opposed to half elf being a karma race, say at the level of desert elf karma.

I can't agree with Cuusardo's post more.

Edited to add about Cuusardo's post:

I'm not opposed to h-elf being a 1-karma level either, however I think it would be fair to people like Delirium (who is an outstanding RPer), if a caveat was added: that any new player is welcome to play a breed, IF the character background shows clearly that the player has a firm grasp of the IC consequences and is prepared to roleplay the quirks that come with the race.

I also completely agree with Seeker's recommendation:

If you are playing a half-elf, you -cannot- state that your character is something else in the sdesc or main desc. You don't have to state he's a half-elf (for obvious reasons) but you shouldn't be allowed to just flat out lie in your text description. Leave the lying for the roleplay. I have the same concern with people who intentionally (and even unintentionally) leave out things in their sdesc that should be in their main desc:

Like, the guy in the white hooded cloak, with the main desc not mentioning that he has HAIR...

and when he takes his hood down, you discover he's the purple-dreadlocked man.

There's a huge difference between ambiguity and outright lying, and I think stricter staff control, clear-cut rules, and more player cooperation is the key.

[Xygax]

A few thoughts on this:

I hate being strict, mainly because it's a pain in the ass.  Thus, I'm resistant to policies that require more strictness on the part of the staff.  Our community is largely capable of policing itself with respect to policies like this, and if you discover concealed half-elves in your Zalanthan wanderings, I strongly encourage you to give them the good kick in the groin they so richly deserve, ICly.  How dare they deceive you so?

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either.  It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.

Also, if there is a coded advantage (some have mentioned elven wisdom and agility balanced against better-than-elven strength and endurance: those people are correct, but not to the degree that these slight differences constitute an advantage by any stretch.  This stat-difference doesn't need fixing, but there might be other things that do.) I would rather fix that than institute yet another subjective, difficult-to-enforce policy.

-- X

[Yokunama]

What do you, the players, think?

I think the players should have the almond eyes and pointy ears they would have in their main description if their ldesc does not contain hints of half-elven blood.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

[Bestatte2L2L]

Xygax wrote:

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either. It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.

The problem in this lies with another thread within the last couple of days. If you are a city elf, then a desert elf will "assess" as someone "of their race" and not as someone "like you." If that's the case, and it sounds like it might be the case.

So a breed could look just like an elf, and unless there is some indication in their main description that they might not be full blooded there is no way for an elf to know which it is - an elf of the other part of the world, or a breed.

I think this is where the "stricter controls" part on the staff's part comes in to play. I know sometimes things slip by, and that's inevitable given y'all are human (except Saikun of course). But if you add to your lengthy list a "if the race is half-elf, make sure it doesn't specify elf or human in main or sdesc" - I think that'll go a really long way in resolving this - even with the occasional slip through the cracks.

[SpyGuy]

Karma...forcing people to put breed or half-elf in their sdescs...requiring all half-elves to have huge pointy ears and huge almond eyes that scream BREED!...man that's all so obsessive guys.

The problem seems to be players putting that they're -specifically- human or elf in their descriptions.  I think disallowing that in the application process is the way to go.  Saying man or woman, urchin or boy, whatever you like would be perfectly appropriate as long as you don't specifically label your race as other than a halfie.

Now all half-elves should be RPed as half-elves but that doesn't mean "the fuzzy-haired breed" is going to RP a half-elf better than "the fuzzy-haired man" who is trying to hide it.  The key to a half-elf isn't their outer appearance, it's the inward tensions and conflict they experience.