Half Elf Race

[flurry]

Also, if there is a coded advantage (some have mentioned elven wisdom and agility balanced against better-than-elven strength and endurance: those people are correct, but not to the degree that these slight differences constitute an advantage by any stretch.  This stat-difference doesn't need fixing, but there might be other things that do.) I would rather fix that than institute yet another subjective, difficult-to-enforce policy.

Well if the stats are fine as is, I'm not too sure about what coded changes would be helpful and appropriate.

I thought about this a little bit and two things came to mind.   If you wanted to give half-elves some minor disadvantage to balance the perceived avantages, one possibility might be to decrease their starting coins.  To me this seems reasonable, since the typical half-elf might have a harder time making money due to racism.

Another thought would be to tweak the starting languages maybe.  If a half-elf has spent her life passing as human, maybe her allundean should be pretty weak.   Likewise for sirihish among halfbreeds passing as elves.

Would coded adjustments dissuade people from making half-elves for the advantages alone?  Who knows.   I hate to think people are just picking half-elves for the supposed perks in the first place, but if they are I guess some kind of coded balancing might fix that.


If there -are- half-elves walking around with nary a hint of it in their sdesc or mdesc, I'd definitely suggest a friendly email to the mud.  I don't remember ever seeing that personally, but there's always going to be exceptions that slip through the cracks.

[Bestatte]

I've seen a few and have typoed them. I don't think -anyone- is saying that a half-elf must define himself specifically as a half-elf in his description. Or at least, I hope not.

What I understand of what I"m reading, is that most agree that intentionally calling yourself something -other- than what you are, via the text descripton or short description, is at the line or crossing the line of code abuse, and both staff and players alike should be more respectful of this line, and not allow it to be crossed.

Edited - that still isn't clear, looking back at it.
Example:

the lean, blue-eyed male

This male is tall and thin, with pale blue eyes. He has muscular arms and legs, and thick long red hair that frames his angular face and falls in unruly waves about his shoulders.

The above is vague, it doesn't say the guy is human, or elf, or half-elf. Because it is vague, you can assume that if you are playing a tall elf and he's taller than you, he isn't human at the very least. And this I believe is acceptable.

But..

The lean, blue-eyed man
This human is tall and thin, blah blah blah

is a text-lie. It is code abuse, the guy isn't a human, and a half-elf isn't a human, and text descriptions are intended to imply a truth, or state a fact. Eitehr one, but text descriptions are not intended to blatantly lie about what the observer sees. It is no different from having someone be the yellow-haired woman, with a main desc showing she has red eyes, but having blue and not red in her keywords intentionally to fuck up peoples' attempts at finding her using the Way.

So - a breed could intentionally neglect to state that he's a breed in his desc. That's fine. What isn't fine is if his player states that he's something else, as though it was fact.

[Yokunama]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

Anyways, there are ways half-elves can gain acceptance by elves or humans, but the "passing off as <insert race here>" thing is starting to get milked dry.

[Cale_Knight]

And then, of course, there's this line:

Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

I think if the staff wants to see more "obvious" half-elves, they should get rid of this line. Seems to me that this part of the help file is outright saying "Hey. It 100% cool to look as human or as elven as you want."

[Delirium]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

You don't have to use those literal examples, though it's a common way of the conflict expressing itself.  They're just that, examples.  Often the conflict can surface in unexpected ways that still make sense when viewed objectively, especially if you have a good idea of the half-elf's personality.

Half-elves can and do survive - and sometimes even manage to do well - in certain clans, though not without a lot of personal cost and struggle.  Just because they're with a clan doesn't mean that they don't try to assert their "independance" in one form or another, either.  There are many ways to do that, and many interpretations, and what's more, personality and upbringing will effect all of this as well.  Though the basic guidelines for half-elven conflict exist to provide a solid framework, the ways to play it out are incredibly varied, and that is part of the attraction of the role.

[Larrath]

The problem isn't with half-elves looking like humans, it's with half-elves behaving as though they were humans.  Half-elves are bipolar by nature, even if they grew up in a loving, caring and accepting environment, and even if they think they're human.

I have no good ideas about how to fix this beyond the karma-restriction which doesn't look probable.  Saying 'more staff scrutiny' is easy, but I'm sure the staff is already doing what it can.


Unless all prices for half-elves were raised by 5%-10% with all NPC merchants?  It's H&Sy and doesn't fully make sense if they pass as human, but I can see merchants raising the price on a half-elf because they don't like them.

[Nao]

I think not allowing human in the short or full descriptions would be reasonable. Not allowing elf in the long description would be reasonable, too, but what about the shport description? How else are you going to indicate that your breed looks like an elf if not by putting elf in the short?
You would still leave out the elf in the full description and give a few hints, but if you just put male/female/man etc. in the short people would see them as human.

[Yokunama]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

Half-elves can and do survive - and sometimes even manage to do well - in certain clans, though not without a lot of personal cost and struggle.  Just because they're with a clan doesn't mean that they don't try to assert their "independance" in one form or another, either. There are many ways to do that, and many interpretations, and what's more, personality and upbringing will effect all of this as well.  Though the basic guidelines for half-elven conflict exist to provide a solid framework, the ways to play it out are incredibly varied, and that is part of the attraction of the role.

responding to bold text:
I did not imply that they do not do that, but the majority of players (from what I've seen) seem to lack the self-reliant thing. Its my fault for not elaborating my opinion more.

P.S. I was going to mention something like that in the post you quoted.  :wink:

[Yokunama]

How else are you going to indicate that your breed looks like an elf if not by putting elf in the short?

I've read somewhere that half-breeds have "slightly" pointy ears and "almond-like" shaped eyes. Those traits are suppose to be dominant.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

[joyofdiscord]

I've read somewhere that half-breeds have "slightly" pointy ears and "almond-like" shaped eyes. Those traits are suppose to be dominant.

I'm guessing you're referring to this thread.  About 80% of the time on the board, when someone says "I remember reading X somewhere," it means they read something misleading near the beginning of a thread and didn't make it to the part in the thread where it was corrected.  Read the entire thread.  Also, the quote from the documenation that you provide below actually contradicts the fact you remember reading.  As a matter of fact, it's especially the parts you've bolded that contradict it, so count this one as a big *confused* on my part.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

New emphasis mine.

[Yokunama]

Unless all prices for half-elves were raised by 5%-10% with all NPC merchants?  It's H&Sy and doesn't fully make sense if they pass as human, but I can see merchants raising the price on a half-elf because they don't like them.

Sound like a good idea.

[Kalden]

One of my pet peeves is people automatically knowing half-elves as breeds because there's 'half-elf' in the sdesc. Nobody knows a breed at first glance. You have to pop the question. You might suspect, but you can't automagickally know.

If you want to pass as an elf, put 'elven' in your sdesc, as I did. Always got people. Human works as well, but I want to see some major hints in your description and a real bushy head of hair.

I also don't see the 'passing themselves off as human' as something that needs to be enforced that much. Reject characters that don't give enough hints, then let it be dealt with IG.

The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc.

In short, I think that curved ears should be in your main desc. Alternatively, it should be obviously pointed out that one's ears are not visible under the hair.

[Kalden]

You can tell if som eone is a halfelf or not by assess -v. Up to the players to decide if they want to deal with an imposter or not.

Thing is -- that info is not necessarily IC. It's just code. The docs clearly state that a half-elf can pass as a human or elf.

[moab]

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either.  It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.
-- X

[Kalden]

Assess is a failsafe command that can be used by any human or elf to determine whether a half-elf or not. Apparently an explanation for how you detect the 'different race' is not required.

Therefore we can assume they can't pass as another race. Let's throw that entire little ploy out the window, since it was never actually possible anyway.

Considering the above facts, it should be required that all half-elves do in fact put half-elf in their sdesc.

I'd like to see the helpfile updated. Seriously.

[Devarin]

Personally, I think that people who are selecting a half-elf race should be aiming their characters that way to take advantage of the conflict and animosity that comes with it.  If you want to try to hide it, you could always try more traditional approaches (wearing hoods, avoiding crowds, being generally sneaky, etc.) rather than rely on code to shield you.  The benefits of being a breed are definitely tempered by the treatment they get in the cities and such; however, it is a matter of tension and conflict that really adds dimension to your character, especially if you can rise above the odds and make a difference.  Some breeds actually -do- get respect, you know!

Steve

[Nyard]

I totally agree with that.  Half-elves are very hard to play.  Even harder then d-elves in my opinion, because with a d-elf you have a tribe and are pretty much forced into a way of play with their docs, with a half-elf all you can go by is the help file, and no new players read those anyways, they just want to get in game.  And then you have a bunch of half-elves that are just played like humans.

-RM

When I was new (or at least, newer) I read the helpfiles.  I definitely made sure to read the elf helpfiles before I made my first elven character, and the Thief's Bible, before I made my first thief character (which, by the way, were both the same character.  Elven thief, duh.).  When I was trying to decide what to make for my new character, I was considering making my first dwarf, and I was prepared to read the dwarf helpfile before I made it (but I ended up making a human).  I hope new players do read the helpfiles before they start playing, or at least the Quickstart.  Everybody should also read the right helpfile depending on the character you're planning to make.  In other words, there is no reason for anybody to be like "I wanna make a dwarf!  Hm, now I have to make an sdesc.  I'll make him the hairy dwarf with a braided beard."  Hm, I just made a completely off-topic post, didn't I?  Oh, well, I'll go ahead and read through the rest of the topic.  >_>

[joyofdiscord]

I have some very serious reservations about ass -v as a tool to "discover" half-elves.  Well, to be specific, one reservation.  That is, seeing "for his race" on a character looking to be of your race does not, by any stretch of the imagination, necessarily mean the character is a half-elf.  It's been said before, they can be something... very, very different.  When I first read that on the boards, I kind of laughed it off.  Yeah, technically there is some crazy PC race that someone might be, but I really doubt I'm going to run across them in game.

Then, you know what happened?  I ran across them.  Characters that were, by all appearances, mdesc, and behavior, of my race.  But they assessed as a different race.  It would have been complete and utter foolishness for me to ICly suspect them as half-elves, because there was no IC indication of that, whatsoever.  My character suspecting them as half-elves would have been completely wrong, and not just wrong in an IC way, because like I said, there was no IC hint, and ass -v wasn't hinting at the thing I thought it might be hinting at.  Drawing a "half-elf" conclusion from assess would have been purely OOC.  Sure enough, they turned out to be "something else."  It turned out to be a very good idea to not let that "Mature for his race" line seep into my character's thoughts until he actually had -real- IC clues about what the heck was going on.

Now, I doubt there are many (or any) half-elves without the giveaway clues in their mdescs.  When they do have the clues, those are all you need to suspect them.  If one -were- approved that looked completely human, it would, in my opinion, be a terrible, terrible, OOC error to suspect them as a half-elf solely on the basis of assess.  "He looks young for his race" just doesn't mean half-elf.  It doesn't.  It really, really doesn't.  If they -are- indeed "something else", how the Drov do you ICly explain suspecting them as a half-elf?  How do you ICly respond to: "All right, Amos, that seven-headed polymorphing demon that was recently discovered, why was it you thought he was a half-elf again?"  "Uhmmm............ he had point--- no... slant---- no.... uhmmm....."

That's just my opinion.  I don't see how, in the absence of any other clues as to mixed ancestry, we can ICly integrate the results of ass -v into our RP as anything more than "something seems a little wierd about that guy."

[Underdark Song]

I strongly oppose the idea of making half-elves a karma race.

While I am a relatively new player, and my opinion may amount to a pile of kank poo, I thought I should say this.

Its hard enough for me to grab karma -- I have none, and I do not fancy waiting the two or three years that I suspect it shall take for me to build up trust amongst the staff (for I am a speck among many), and I definitely do not fancy having to special-app for my favorite race (you staff types are quite intimidating).

You can't 'karma' every single race that is immediately difficult to play -- or else we'd just have humans to start with, and damn that would be a turn off to any newbie wanting to expand.

That said...

I wouldn't suggest the imms to "comb" through every half-elf app they get.  That would be... tedious.  For both parties.  Players should be encouraged to use traits of both races in their description, however, as vague as some of the more talented writers among us may make it.  

Raising the prices for half-elfs who, ICly, may look nothing like elves or even half-elves is just too... OOC... for my liking.  I give that a huge, fat "NAY!"  

You could also slip a little praise to players who are roleplaying the race correctly as the imms invision it.  I know this may sound funky, but its nice to get further encouragement if we're doing a good job.  On the same token, players observed RPing the race rather badly (blending entirely into one or the other society and chillin' with their homies) could be given tips, or even go so far as to have the selection removed until they can prove they can the race better.

And.. what about half-elf RP classes?  I don't know if Armageddon does these... I've seen some other RPI MUDs do them, and I believe I've seen a few hints that Arm used to do them in the past.  I would gladly attend a discussion session concerning to proper RP of half-elves, if nothing more than to better my own RP and understanding of the race.

I forgot where I was going with this post.. sorry, was interrupted in my writing.  Anyway..um.. I'll post again if I remember.

[flurry]

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

I was just thinking about this, after I saw the thread had some recent posts.  That's a tough issue, I think.  How do you roleplay to indicate you're trying to pass?   That doesn't seem obvious, unless you're faced with someone asking about or challenging your racial makeup.  I suppose you could have self-conscious habits like trying to keep your ears obscured, or always complaining about half-elves yourself, or implying that -other- people might be half-elves.  Hints of half-elven internal conflict slipping out, too.  Still, what if someone is trying to just kind of go with the flow, and not make waves?  It seems like, in that case, it would be hard to distinguish between someone who is trying to roleplay passing, and someone who just made a half-elf but is playing him or her like an elf or a human.  

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

This I find to be tough, actually, now that I think about it some more.  Because if I see someone with a half-elf character, it can be really hard to tell if they're trying to pass as something else.   I'd like to follow their lead, and be considerate that way.   In other words, if they're out to deceive people about their race, sometimes OOCly I'd like to play along.   Though it can be hard to decide if someone is actually trying to pass or not.

[Larrath]

Much like with a sekret magicker, if a half-elf wants to keep their identity a secret then that's fine, and they don't have to constantly do this:

Code Select Expand


emote brushes back the hair over their LONG and TEARDROP-SHAPED ear, moving so discreetly that only a FILTHY TWINK can notice them.  You're not a twink, are you?  Huh?


However, I would still expect the half-elf to play like a half-elf who's trying, perhaps successfully, to pretend they're a human or an elf.  For instance, a half-elf playing as an elf might be dismissive about their successful thefts instead of gulp up the praise like his friends.
A half-elf playing human might court a woman for half a year and then invent some flaw in her and reject her after she finally agreed to sleep with him.

Or they could just always act like they have something to prove to everyone else, or always be just a little too close or too distant.

There are many things a well-played half-elf can do without throwing giant hints about what they really are; after all, the conflict is mostly internal as it is, and people don't have to watch the half-elf publicly argue with himself in order for her to be a good character.

[Anonymous]

It says in the game docs that half-elfs can pass for human which makes perfect sense to me.  And naturally many halfers are going to be raised to feel inferior, they're going to want to nick their ears.  They're going to want to hide it if they can (I would say for the most part).  In the same sense half-elves can also pass for elves, until they discover that they aren't apt for runs and such things.  I think it provides for interesting story lines and a nice inferiority complex thing.

I don't think that trying to hide you're a halfer is code abuse, half-elves have their strengths and weaknesses just like any other race.  It's just a matter of choice *shrug*

[Bebop]

That's me above^

I would also like to point out that not everyone rps correctly so I don't see any reason why to point out half-elfs that pose as humans specifically.  Maybe even some halfers think they are human.  And with alot of halfers posing as humans I usually do notice, angular or mismatched features even seen a few nicked ears which I thought was kind of cool.  Half-Elves should be played like they are nervous to be exposed, self-reliant and lonely same way most Allanaki commoners (especially natives) should be shying away ang sneering at gemmers but people don't.  In fact as mentioned before most gemmers are treated basically like anyone else.  I've always thought that I gem doesn't necessarily mean protection or acceptance, just that hey we'll let you live here but we're going to use you and have the potential to rip off that gem around your neck.  That's not how people always play it.  I think that going as far to edit the game docs permanently is a little extreme.

[Cuusardo]

The problem is people choosing the race half-elf for the specific purposes of gaining their racial advantages, without any intention of roleplaying the character as a half-elf.

[joyofdiscord]

The problem is people choosing the race half-elf for the specific purposes of gaining their racial advantages, without any intention of roleplaying the character as a half-elf.

Do these people really exist?  I mean, we commonly hear complaints about them on the GDB, but are they actually out there?

First, the half-elf racial advantages are not really that impressive.  Ride is nice, but any char can learn to ride before too long.  Decent Allundean is a more significant advantage, but who wants to speak that elvish trash anyway?  If you let it slip that you know it, people will also suspect you.  Also, half-elf stats are unimpressive.  If you want to be nimble and smart, elves do it better.  If you want to be strong and tough, humans are better.  Half-elves split the difference and don't really stand out at anything.  Plus, stats don't really matter much anyway.

Second, even if the player in question doesn't want to RP a half-elf, other players are (hopefully) going to thrust a very significant part of half-elf RP upon them, the discrimination.  The coded advantages of being a half-elf don't come anywhere near the social advantages of being a human.  Not by a looooooonng shot.