Half Elf Race

[Qetesh]

We've noticed a great many applications where the race is half-elf and yet the character is identified as a human or elf. The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc. Some of us oppose this because the ability to have a character trying to "pass" adds a potential source of conflict/tension, but it seems as though some players are doing this because they want what they perceive as (what may or may not be actual) code advantages of the race.

What do you, the players, think?

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

What code-advantages do half-elves really have, in your perception?

[Barzalene]

It's one thing to say woman or man, and another to say elf or human. You can be a half-elf man or woman. you cannot be a half-elf elf or human.

[RunningMountain]

Wisdom and agility are huge.  A half-elf gets higher agility and wisdom then humans which makes them learn faster and simply be faster in combat.  This is the main reason players pick a half-elf and then show nothing as being a half-elf in their descriptions, keywords, or roleplay.  I myself have picked half-elf and gone around as the full elf, and have gone full human, but my roleplay would eventually reveal that he was very strange for a human or elf.  

Now, If I played it as a full human I would definitely include SOMETHING physically, because I see the elf blood as being a dominant trait, you could even put this in the documentation so people would have to include something such as the pointed ears.  Now when I did this but wanted to play it with a human sdesc I would include it in the mdesc but conceal it like with really curly hair that covered his ears, that way if someone IG moved the hair or cut it, I would be revealed as a half-elf, and would emote it of course.  Some people would not.  So having them include something about their elven blood in their mdesc when they try to submit for a brown-haired man as a half-elf race would be the best I think.


Just the way I see it.
-RM

[Larrath]

Also because I am a firm believer that new players should not be playing half-elves due to their inherent difficulty, I propose that half-elves are made a karma 1 race.  It might help to stop at least most of the people doing that.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think human-looking half-elves or (probably more likely) elf-looking half-elves should still be allowed. But they should be a special app.

[RunningMountain]

I totally agree with that.  Half-elves are very hard to play.  Even harder then d-elves in my opinion, because with a d-elf you have a tribe and are pretty much forced into a way of play with their docs, with a half-elf all you can go by is the help file, and no new players read those anyways, they just want to get in game.  And then you have a bunch of half-elves that are just played like humans.

-RM

[Nao]

bleh, don't make them karma, please!  (I want to play them too, love them, even if I'm a new player) PLEASE!

I loved my breed and I want more of that, even with no karma...

I really think that this should be allowed... put elf or human in your short even if you are a half elf... The docs say that most half-elves can pass as either human or elf, and I think most half elves would TRY to pass as either one, too, because of all the stuff they have to face as half-elves... so if you made this impossible by code, that would be against the game world... and I'd hate it because I want to play those..

if this is really a huge problem, maybe accept only half-elf applications that have some clear hints in their full descriptions? or maybe they HAVE to describe the ears (but ppl would have to pay more attention to whether those are actually visible or not because they are hidden under hair, a helmet, a bandana or something)

I've been planning on one of those for some time now, I'd be issed if you took them away...
Óne of the nice things in this game is that you have a wide race selection even as a new player, I love it... and I wanna play my kank-riding but trying to hide it cause he passes as an elf otherwise breed!

[Cuusardo]

I think that more strictness on the part of the staff when the character is being reviewed for approval would help this out.  And if a player is found to be twinking by consistently picking the half elf race, and roleplaying the character as actually being human or elf, the staff could consider removing that option from that player's list of available races.

I also think that on the players' part, it should be required that something should definitely be put into the background about the half elf striving to pass as either human or elf if that is what the player is trying to do with the character.  I am also not opposed to half elf being a karma race, say at the level of desert elf karma.

[Delirium]

My first character was a half-elf.  I like to think I did a good job.  

Please don't make them Karma-restricted.

Half-elves are attractive to me because of the inherent conflict that comes with them.  Their coded advantages don't seem all that much, especially since having low strength and endurance can be very irritating.  Sure, they might learn more quickly, but any decently long-lived character is going to be good at what they do, if they've been using their abilities.  The one thing they really have going for them is agility, which admittedly rocks if you're a combat or stealth-based character.

More on topic, I think it's a fine line to walk.  If you don't indicate in your sdesc that you're half-elven you should definitely include some hints in your mdesc.  Never say OUTRIGHT that your character is a human or an elf, because that'd be lying.. but you can suggest that they look human or elven.  The difference, you ask?

This lanky female's muscles are ropy and compact, lending her a slimmer profile than the average human.  Her sloe-eyed gaze is set beneath arched brows and serves as the highlight to her angular features.

Notice I never said "woman", "human", and I included elvish traits - being slender, having slanted eyes (sloe-eyed means dark almond-shaped eyes), and an angular face.  Is she a skinny human or a half-elf?

That's different than outright calling her a human woman, or giving her completely human features and picking half-elf.  

I would go so far as to say that any character with the race of "half-elf" should have either an elf and a human as a parent, or two half-elves as parents.  If the character is only "quarter elf", i.e. a half-elven and human parent, or "quarter human", i.e. a half-elven and elven parent, then they should be of race "human" or "elf" with some very faint half-elven traits.  Maybe their ears are very slightly pointed but they're otherwise human, or maybe they're a bit shorter and bulkier but otherwise elvish.  Pick the dominant race, but hint at and roleplay their impure blood.

[Qetesh]

I'd like to reiterate that we are simply having a discussion and would like to get the player opinion on this.  As it stands half-elves are allowed and do pose as humans or elves. Also there is no talk of them becoming a karma race.  

We would just like to get the players opinion on how we can keep them true to the breed of half-elf and not what people –perceive- as a statistical jump (which may or may not be the case) by calling them human/elf as an avoidance of the racism and difficulties that should be attributed to them without rolelaying that aspect.



I personally am not fond of forcing a half-elf tag on them, but prefer the player to hint to it in their main desc, if they are trying to hide their lineage. I think that half-elves posing as humans or elves make for good conflict, plots and individual rp if played correctly.

[Nao]

I personally am not fond of forcing a half-elf tag on them, but prefer the player to hint to it in their main desc, if they are trying to hide there lineage. I think that half-elves posing as humans or elves make for good conflict, plots and individual rp if played correctly.

Then you could make those hints a rule and don't approve anything that looks completely like a human or elf but has half-elf as a race..?

Good if they stay karma-less, you really scared me now..o.O

[Anonymous]

I'm of the opinion that if, through continual breeding by your part-elven ancestors with one race or another, your visible physical traits are all one race or the other that you would have also lost most of the physiological traits of that race as well.

In other words, if you are so far removed from the elven blood in your lineage that you look human you probably have a human's denser bones and agility as well.  It doesn't make sense to me that the human genes would dominate your outward appearance but internally you were more elven.

If you want to be a super-secret half-elf, then roll a human or an elf and put in your background that you are actually a little part elvish.  The roleplay can still be the same, but you avoid 'assess -v' ambiguity which puts everyone in an awkward position and also don't appear to be trying to get the best of both worlds.

[amoeba]

I'll echo Deliium's post.   I also played a half-elf for my first one. I love playing them, it's fun to try and get into thier personality.  

Do not make them karma, please

In so far as the half-elf trying to pass as human or elf, it's a valid avenue. But they should have some at least subtle indication that they may not be what they appear to be.  Having the tag half-elf would negate being able to even attempt this.   It does not need to be special-app'ed, I would think that trying to hide who you are as a breed shouldn't be all that unusual, and it is very easy IG to find out the truth.  We have the application process to weed out suspect apps. I have played one tying to pass as one or the other.  I would have had no problem getting an app kicked back saying you are being too subtle, turn it up a bit.  That is what the app process is there for.

edit --grr.. I take too long to type. Xygax already negated some of this.

[Xygax]

Making half-elves a karma race isn't even on the table, guys.  Don't worry about it.

-- X

[Forty Winks]

Alright, so here's what -I- percieve as the most likely point here...

But before that, I'd just like to point out that, although distinguishing between helf-elves and humans/elves is important in a discussion like this, I think no matter how human-like to elven-like a half-elf appears, if the half-elf doesn't -roleplay/act- like a half-elf, then the point is meaningless.

Personally, I think a half-elf leaning more towards human appearances or elven appearances is fine if there are hints (albeit subtle ones) in the desc. But I do think that the player apping for such a character should closely examine the reason why.

The main point that I see in playing half-elves, and the reason why people likely choose this race alot, is due to the added bonus of alot more rp opportunities. You can pick a human or elf, and still be able to accomplish alot of your goals fit in your concepts, but...(how can I say this...) you won't start off with conflict and roleplay right off the bat. Hmm, let me try again. What I'm trying to get at is that by picking a half-elf, you are already set apart from other PCs the moment you begin your character, while a human or elf would need to draw attention to themselves through  their various vices and virtues with their roleplay, which may take awhile. By drawing attention to yourself by being a half-elf, you've placed yourself in a situation that can generally start roleplay more quickly than by being a "normal" race. This is likely not the motivation for choosing a half-elf for everyone, but it seems to be a large motivation, if albeit subconscious choice.

Also, going with my previous point, because the half-elven persona exists in the first place (all fletched out in the documents) it tends to draw alot of (newer) players who might be unable to come up with good concepts quickly. It could likely be easier to simply go along with the half-elven guidelines already set out, and build a character around that. Because it appears easier to create a half-elf concept, more players might be attracted to the race.

And, when your PC has nothing to do, you have suggestions already laid out for you to follow, as well as good, logical reasons for such actions like wandering out in the desert, and travelling alot. (a notion for adventure and discovery I'm sure many new and even some veteran players are attracted to.)

Bottom line so far is: because the half-elf character might appear easy to create, and maybe even exciting due to their constant internal and external conflict, many players might choose to pick that race.

This is speaking strictly through my own reasoning, and might not even be correct.

[Seeker]

No use of "man", "woman", "human", or "elf" in the sdescs.

Nothing in the mdesc that -says- that they are an elf or a human.  Careful wording is the trick.

"A bit taller than the average human," is fine.
"The stocky frame on this male elf..." is not.

The mdesc doesn't have to scream "tainted, nasty Breed!", but it cannot state that the character is something else, either.  

The fact is that no matter how close a Breed looks to either the human or the elven side of her heritage, there is always going to be -something- that will give them away if inspected close enough.  Some NPC built-in coded reactions to half-elves make that clear. Something can always give them away if looked at close enough.

It should be impossible for an intimate lover to NOT know that their partner is a Breed without a whole lot of active denial going on.

I guess the rest is in the hands of the player.  Actively working to disquise the betraying features; remembering that every half-elf is inherently mentally instable with the bi-polar twistiness described in the docs, etc.

It's a fun role, and a straight-from-the-box great way to have a dynamic inner-life for a PC.  

Seeker

[Forty Winks]

We've noticed a great many applications where the race is half-elf and yet the character is identified as a human or elf. The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc. Some of us oppose this because the ability to have a character trying to "pass" adds a potential source of conflict/tension, but it seems as though some players are doing this because they want what they perceive as (what may or may not be actual) code advantages of the race.

What do you, the players, think?

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

What code-advantages do half-elves really have, in your perception?

Oops, I've forgotten about the original reason for this thread.  :roll:

When creating such a character, I think it's best to first examine -why- you want your character to look more human/elven and not a visible representation of a "true" half-elf. If it's for purely OOC reasons, then you're defeating the purpose of having a half-elven character.

Anyways, I'll slightly contradict myself from the point made in my previous post about making characters appear more human/elven looking. I think stricter regulation in half-elven apps could be of benefit. There should be a few defining characteristic that should be laid out for half-elven characters, and be required in apps. The manner in which the player adds such characteristic to the character can be done in any manner as long as it is apparent right away (or even with -close- examination). What these characteristics are of half-elves can be determined by the staff and players and be mentioned in the half-elven documents and anywhere necessary. Aside from that, I don't there is much that can be done on the staff's part to ensure that half-elves are played like half-elves besides more extreme measures. (like making the race a karma race)

By making half-elves more apparently obvious (depending on how much effort the player went into describing their character) it is easier for other PCs to react accordingly to half-elves, and thus deter potential abusers from simply getting the coded "benefits" without effort.

Although I say that it'll be "apparently obvious" to pick a half-elf out of a crowd, if the player describes the character well enough, people can still get off with passing as humans or elves (depending on the characteristics of half-elves is required in the description) so such concepts can still very well be doable.

[moab]

This is an interesting issue.  I love both Muls and Half-elves because of their split, crushed and ruined psyche.  Striving with inner demons and often failing thought sometimes succeeding is so much cooler than working on your sword arm.

But - in the case of half-elves: what if the half-elf doesn't even know he's a half-elf?  How could you expect them to have conflict. Of course they might, but possibly they will never know.  No drama.  Maybe they are robbed of the that particular joy, but it's reasonable.

If the policy is changed so that half-elves must reveal themselves to be so, don't mandate it so that it must be in their sdesc, perhaps.  How about just reference the shape of their eyes, their angular features, their ears or their uncanny height or thinness (or vice versa if passing as an elf) in their mDesc?

That way, any extremely tall and gaunt human might fall under the suspicion of mixed blood regardless as would any short, round-eyed elf.

[Forty Winks]

The apparent "coded-advantages" that a half-elf as I think is likely the fact that a character can have a better dexterity and wisdom than humans, and better endurance and strength than elves.

From the point of view of a player that might care for these things, having a character with better than average agility and wisdom and decent strength and endurance is better than having a character with either alot of agility/wisdom and little strength/endurance (thus a character than can't get involved with alot of physical things) or a character that is average in stats.

A half-elf likely appears better than a human, and better than an elf in strength and endurance.

That is the most likely reason someone might choose a half-elf for the "coded-advantages.

[O]

No use of "man", "woman", "human", or "elf" in the sdescs.

Nothing in the mdesc that -says- that they are an elf or a human. Careful wording is the trick.

Hmm...I had been presuming this was the case anyway! Otherwise yeah, it's just an OOC lie isn't it?

[Bestatte]

I think that more strictness on the part of the staff when the character is being reviewed for approval would help this out.  And if a player is found to be twinking by consistently picking the half elf race, and roleplaying the character as actually being human or elf, the staff could consider removing that option from that player's list of available races.

I also think that on the players' part, it should be required that something should definitely be put into the background about the half elf striving to pass as either human or elf if that is what the player is trying to do with the character.  I am also not opposed to half elf being a karma race, say at the level of desert elf karma.

I can't agree with Cuusardo's post more.

Edited to add about Cuusardo's post:

I'm not opposed to h-elf being a 1-karma level either, however I think it would be fair to people like Delirium (who is an outstanding RPer), if a caveat was added: that any new player is welcome to play a breed, IF the character background shows clearly that the player has a firm grasp of the IC consequences and is prepared to roleplay the quirks that come with the race.

I also completely agree with Seeker's recommendation:

If you are playing a half-elf, you -cannot- state that your character is something else in the sdesc or main desc. You don't have to state he's a half-elf (for obvious reasons) but you shouldn't be allowed to just flat out lie in your text description. Leave the lying for the roleplay. I have the same concern with people who intentionally (and even unintentionally) leave out things in their sdesc that should be in their main desc:

Like, the guy in the white hooded cloak, with the main desc not mentioning that he has HAIR...

and when he takes his hood down, you discover he's the purple-dreadlocked man.

There's a huge difference between ambiguity and outright lying, and I think stricter staff control, clear-cut rules, and more player cooperation is the key.

[Xygax]

A few thoughts on this:

I hate being strict, mainly because it's a pain in the ass.  Thus, I'm resistant to policies that require more strictness on the part of the staff.  Our community is largely capable of policing itself with respect to policies like this, and if you discover concealed half-elves in your Zalanthan wanderings, I strongly encourage you to give them the good kick in the groin they so richly deserve, ICly.  How dare they deceive you so?

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either.  It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.

Also, if there is a coded advantage (some have mentioned elven wisdom and agility balanced against better-than-elven strength and endurance: those people are correct, but not to the degree that these slight differences constitute an advantage by any stretch.  This stat-difference doesn't need fixing, but there might be other things that do.) I would rather fix that than institute yet another subjective, difficult-to-enforce policy.

-- X

[Yokunama]

What do you, the players, think?

I think the players should have the almond eyes and pointy ears they would have in their main description if their ldesc does not contain hints of half-elven blood.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

[Bestatte2L2L]

Xygax wrote:

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either. It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.

The problem in this lies with another thread within the last couple of days. If you are a city elf, then a desert elf will "assess" as someone "of their race" and not as someone "like you." If that's the case, and it sounds like it might be the case.

So a breed could look just like an elf, and unless there is some indication in their main description that they might not be full blooded there is no way for an elf to know which it is - an elf of the other part of the world, or a breed.

I think this is where the "stricter controls" part on the staff's part comes in to play. I know sometimes things slip by, and that's inevitable given y'all are human (except Saikun of course). But if you add to your lengthy list a "if the race is half-elf, make sure it doesn't specify elf or human in main or sdesc" - I think that'll go a really long way in resolving this - even with the occasional slip through the cracks.

[SpyGuy]

Karma...forcing people to put breed or half-elf in their sdescs...requiring all half-elves to have huge pointy ears and huge almond eyes that scream BREED!...man that's all so obsessive guys.

The problem seems to be players putting that they're -specifically- human or elf in their descriptions.  I think disallowing that in the application process is the way to go.  Saying man or woman, urchin or boy, whatever you like would be perfectly appropriate as long as you don't specifically label your race as other than a halfie.

Now all half-elves should be RPed as half-elves but that doesn't mean "the fuzzy-haired breed" is going to RP a half-elf better than "the fuzzy-haired man" who is trying to hide it.  The key to a half-elf isn't their outer appearance, it's the inward tensions and conflict they experience.

[flurry]

Also, if there is a coded advantage (some have mentioned elven wisdom and agility balanced against better-than-elven strength and endurance: those people are correct, but not to the degree that these slight differences constitute an advantage by any stretch.  This stat-difference doesn't need fixing, but there might be other things that do.) I would rather fix that than institute yet another subjective, difficult-to-enforce policy.

Well if the stats are fine as is, I'm not too sure about what coded changes would be helpful and appropriate.

I thought about this a little bit and two things came to mind.   If you wanted to give half-elves some minor disadvantage to balance the perceived avantages, one possibility might be to decrease their starting coins.  To me this seems reasonable, since the typical half-elf might have a harder time making money due to racism.

Another thought would be to tweak the starting languages maybe.  If a half-elf has spent her life passing as human, maybe her allundean should be pretty weak.   Likewise for sirihish among halfbreeds passing as elves.

Would coded adjustments dissuade people from making half-elves for the advantages alone?  Who knows.   I hate to think people are just picking half-elves for the supposed perks in the first place, but if they are I guess some kind of coded balancing might fix that.


If there -are- half-elves walking around with nary a hint of it in their sdesc or mdesc, I'd definitely suggest a friendly email to the mud.  I don't remember ever seeing that personally, but there's always going to be exceptions that slip through the cracks.

[Bestatte]

I've seen a few and have typoed them. I don't think -anyone- is saying that a half-elf must define himself specifically as a half-elf in his description. Or at least, I hope not.

What I understand of what I"m reading, is that most agree that intentionally calling yourself something -other- than what you are, via the text descripton or short description, is at the line or crossing the line of code abuse, and both staff and players alike should be more respectful of this line, and not allow it to be crossed.

Edited - that still isn't clear, looking back at it.
Example:

the lean, blue-eyed male

This male is tall and thin, with pale blue eyes. He has muscular arms and legs, and thick long red hair that frames his angular face and falls in unruly waves about his shoulders.

The above is vague, it doesn't say the guy is human, or elf, or half-elf. Because it is vague, you can assume that if you are playing a tall elf and he's taller than you, he isn't human at the very least. And this I believe is acceptable.

But..

The lean, blue-eyed man
This human is tall and thin, blah blah blah

is a text-lie. It is code abuse, the guy isn't a human, and a half-elf isn't a human, and text descriptions are intended to imply a truth, or state a fact. Eitehr one, but text descriptions are not intended to blatantly lie about what the observer sees. It is no different from having someone be the yellow-haired woman, with a main desc showing she has red eyes, but having blue and not red in her keywords intentionally to fuck up peoples' attempts at finding her using the Way.

So - a breed could intentionally neglect to state that he's a breed in his desc. That's fine. What isn't fine is if his player states that he's something else, as though it was fact.

[Yokunama]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

Anyways, there are ways half-elves can gain acceptance by elves or humans, but the "passing off as <insert race here>" thing is starting to get milked dry.

[Cale_Knight]

And then, of course, there's this line:

Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

I think if the staff wants to see more "obvious" half-elves, they should get rid of this line. Seems to me that this part of the help file is outright saying "Hey. It 100% cool to look as human or as elven as you want."

[Delirium]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

You don't have to use those literal examples, though it's a common way of the conflict expressing itself.  They're just that, examples.  Often the conflict can surface in unexpected ways that still make sense when viewed objectively, especially if you have a good idea of the half-elf's personality.

Half-elves can and do survive - and sometimes even manage to do well - in certain clans, though not without a lot of personal cost and struggle.  Just because they're with a clan doesn't mean that they don't try to assert their "independance" in one form or another, either.  There are many ways to do that, and many interpretations, and what's more, personality and upbringing will effect all of this as well.  Though the basic guidelines for half-elven conflict exist to provide a solid framework, the ways to play it out are incredibly varied, and that is part of the attraction of the role.

[Larrath]

The problem isn't with half-elves looking like humans, it's with half-elves behaving as though they were humans.  Half-elves are bipolar by nature, even if they grew up in a loving, caring and accepting environment, and even if they think they're human.

I have no good ideas about how to fix this beyond the karma-restriction which doesn't look probable.  Saying 'more staff scrutiny' is easy, but I'm sure the staff is already doing what it can.


Unless all prices for half-elves were raised by 5%-10% with all NPC merchants?  It's H&Sy and doesn't fully make sense if they pass as human, but I can see merchants raising the price on a half-elf because they don't like them.

[Nao]

I think not allowing human in the short or full descriptions would be reasonable. Not allowing elf in the long description would be reasonable, too, but what about the shport description? How else are you going to indicate that your breed looks like an elf if not by putting elf in the short?
You would still leave out the elf in the full description and give a few hints, but if you just put male/female/man etc. in the short people would see them as human.

[Yokunama]

Roleplaying: Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

responding to bold text:
You never see any of this in the world. I might be wrong, but the majority of half-elven characters I've seen did not do the self-reliant thing.

Half-elves can and do survive - and sometimes even manage to do well - in certain clans, though not without a lot of personal cost and struggle.  Just because they're with a clan doesn't mean that they don't try to assert their "independance" in one form or another, either. There are many ways to do that, and many interpretations, and what's more, personality and upbringing will effect all of this as well.  Though the basic guidelines for half-elven conflict exist to provide a solid framework, the ways to play it out are incredibly varied, and that is part of the attraction of the role.

responding to bold text:
I did not imply that they do not do that, but the majority of players (from what I've seen) seem to lack the self-reliant thing. Its my fault for not elaborating my opinion more.

P.S. I was going to mention something like that in the post you quoted.  :wink:

[Yokunama]

How else are you going to indicate that your breed looks like an elf if not by putting elf in the short?

I've read somewhere that half-breeds have "slightly" pointy ears and "almond-like" shaped eyes. Those traits are suppose to be dominant.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

[joyofdiscord]

I've read somewhere that half-breeds have "slightly" pointy ears and "almond-like" shaped eyes. Those traits are suppose to be dominant.

I'm guessing you're referring to this thread.  About 80% of the time on the board, when someone says "I remember reading X somewhere," it means they read something misleading near the beginning of a thread and didn't make it to the part in the thread where it was corrected.  Read the entire thread.  Also, the quote from the documenation that you provide below actually contradicts the fact you remember reading.  As a matter of fact, it's especially the parts you've bolded that contradict it, so count this one as a big *confused* on my part.

Tall, between 72 and 78 inches in height, and possessed of deeply etched features, half-elves resemble their elven parents. On the other hand, half-elves are bulkier and somewhat more durable than elves, and so resemble their human parents. Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colours of both parents.

New emphasis mine.

[Yokunama]

Unless all prices for half-elves were raised by 5%-10% with all NPC merchants?  It's H&Sy and doesn't fully make sense if they pass as human, but I can see merchants raising the price on a half-elf because they don't like them.

Sound like a good idea.

[Kalden]

One of my pet peeves is people automatically knowing half-elves as breeds because there's 'half-elf' in the sdesc. Nobody knows a breed at first glance. You have to pop the question. You might suspect, but you can't automagickally know.

If you want to pass as an elf, put 'elven' in your sdesc, as I did. Always got people. Human works as well, but I want to see some major hints in your description and a real bushy head of hair.

I also don't see the 'passing themselves off as human' as something that needs to be enforced that much. Reject characters that don't give enough hints, then let it be dealt with IG.

The staff has been discussing whether or not we should move to a rule where half-elves are required to reference their race in their sdesc.

In short, I think that curved ears should be in your main desc. Alternatively, it should be obviously pointed out that one's ears are not visible under the hair.

[Kalden]

You can tell if som eone is a halfelf or not by assess -v. Up to the players to decide if they want to deal with an imposter or not.

Thing is -- that info is not necessarily IC. It's just code. The docs clearly state that a half-elf can pass as a human or elf.

[moab]

I'm not at all averse to seeing the assess command used to uncloak half-elves, either.  It's entirely up to you whether the information provided by this command is something your character would perceive or act upon.
-- X

[Kalden]

Assess is a failsafe command that can be used by any human or elf to determine whether a half-elf or not. Apparently an explanation for how you detect the 'different race' is not required.

Therefore we can assume they can't pass as another race. Let's throw that entire little ploy out the window, since it was never actually possible anyway.

Considering the above facts, it should be required that all half-elves do in fact put half-elf in their sdesc.

I'd like to see the helpfile updated. Seriously.

[Devarin]

Personally, I think that people who are selecting a half-elf race should be aiming their characters that way to take advantage of the conflict and animosity that comes with it.  If you want to try to hide it, you could always try more traditional approaches (wearing hoods, avoiding crowds, being generally sneaky, etc.) rather than rely on code to shield you.  The benefits of being a breed are definitely tempered by the treatment they get in the cities and such; however, it is a matter of tension and conflict that really adds dimension to your character, especially if you can rise above the odds and make a difference.  Some breeds actually -do- get respect, you know!

Steve

[Nyard]

I totally agree with that.  Half-elves are very hard to play.  Even harder then d-elves in my opinion, because with a d-elf you have a tribe and are pretty much forced into a way of play with their docs, with a half-elf all you can go by is the help file, and no new players read those anyways, they just want to get in game.  And then you have a bunch of half-elves that are just played like humans.

-RM

When I was new (or at least, newer) I read the helpfiles.  I definitely made sure to read the elf helpfiles before I made my first elven character, and the Thief's Bible, before I made my first thief character (which, by the way, were both the same character.  Elven thief, duh.).  When I was trying to decide what to make for my new character, I was considering making my first dwarf, and I was prepared to read the dwarf helpfile before I made it (but I ended up making a human).  I hope new players do read the helpfiles before they start playing, or at least the Quickstart.  Everybody should also read the right helpfile depending on the character you're planning to make.  In other words, there is no reason for anybody to be like "I wanna make a dwarf!  Hm, now I have to make an sdesc.  I'll make him the hairy dwarf with a braided beard."  Hm, I just made a completely off-topic post, didn't I?  Oh, well, I'll go ahead and read through the rest of the topic.  >_>

[joyofdiscord]

I have some very serious reservations about ass -v as a tool to "discover" half-elves.  Well, to be specific, one reservation.  That is, seeing "for his race" on a character looking to be of your race does not, by any stretch of the imagination, necessarily mean the character is a half-elf.  It's been said before, they can be something... very, very different.  When I first read that on the boards, I kind of laughed it off.  Yeah, technically there is some crazy PC race that someone might be, but I really doubt I'm going to run across them in game.

Then, you know what happened?  I ran across them.  Characters that were, by all appearances, mdesc, and behavior, of my race.  But they assessed as a different race.  It would have been complete and utter foolishness for me to ICly suspect them as half-elves, because there was no IC indication of that, whatsoever.  My character suspecting them as half-elves would have been completely wrong, and not just wrong in an IC way, because like I said, there was no IC hint, and ass -v wasn't hinting at the thing I thought it might be hinting at.  Drawing a "half-elf" conclusion from assess would have been purely OOC.  Sure enough, they turned out to be "something else."  It turned out to be a very good idea to not let that "Mature for his race" line seep into my character's thoughts until he actually had -real- IC clues about what the heck was going on.

Now, I doubt there are many (or any) half-elves without the giveaway clues in their mdescs.  When they do have the clues, those are all you need to suspect them.  If one -were- approved that looked completely human, it would, in my opinion, be a terrible, terrible, OOC error to suspect them as a half-elf solely on the basis of assess.  "He looks young for his race" just doesn't mean half-elf.  It doesn't.  It really, really doesn't.  If they -are- indeed "something else", how the Drov do you ICly explain suspecting them as a half-elf?  How do you ICly respond to: "All right, Amos, that seven-headed polymorphing demon that was recently discovered, why was it you thought he was a half-elf again?"  "Uhmmm............ he had point--- no... slant---- no.... uhmmm....."

That's just my opinion.  I don't see how, in the absence of any other clues as to mixed ancestry, we can ICly integrate the results of ass -v into our RP as anything more than "something seems a little wierd about that guy."

[Underdark Song]

I strongly oppose the idea of making half-elves a karma race.

While I am a relatively new player, and my opinion may amount to a pile of kank poo, I thought I should say this.

Its hard enough for me to grab karma -- I have none, and I do not fancy waiting the two or three years that I suspect it shall take for me to build up trust amongst the staff (for I am a speck among many), and I definitely do not fancy having to special-app for my favorite race (you staff types are quite intimidating).

You can't 'karma' every single race that is immediately difficult to play -- or else we'd just have humans to start with, and damn that would be a turn off to any newbie wanting to expand.

That said...

I wouldn't suggest the imms to "comb" through every half-elf app they get.  That would be... tedious.  For both parties.  Players should be encouraged to use traits of both races in their description, however, as vague as some of the more talented writers among us may make it.  

Raising the prices for half-elfs who, ICly, may look nothing like elves or even half-elves is just too... OOC... for my liking.  I give that a huge, fat "NAY!"  

You could also slip a little praise to players who are roleplaying the race correctly as the imms invision it.  I know this may sound funky, but its nice to get further encouragement if we're doing a good job.  On the same token, players observed RPing the race rather badly (blending entirely into one or the other society and chillin' with their homies) could be given tips, or even go so far as to have the selection removed until they can prove they can the race better.

And.. what about half-elf RP classes?  I don't know if Armageddon does these... I've seen some other RPI MUDs do them, and I believe I've seen a few hints that Arm used to do them in the past.  I would gladly attend a discussion session concerning to proper RP of half-elves, if nothing more than to better my own RP and understanding of the race.

I forgot where I was going with this post.. sorry, was interrupted in my writing.  Anyway..um.. I'll post again if I remember.

[flurry]

How do we ensure that half-elves who are trying to pass actually incorporate that in their roleplay?

I was just thinking about this, after I saw the thread had some recent posts.  That's a tough issue, I think.  How do you roleplay to indicate you're trying to pass?   That doesn't seem obvious, unless you're faced with someone asking about or challenging your racial makeup.  I suppose you could have self-conscious habits like trying to keep your ears obscured, or always complaining about half-elves yourself, or implying that -other- people might be half-elves.  Hints of half-elven internal conflict slipping out, too.  Still, what if someone is trying to just kind of go with the flow, and not make waves?  It seems like, in that case, it would be hard to distinguish between someone who is trying to roleplay passing, and someone who just made a half-elf but is playing him or her like an elf or a human.  

How do we ensure that this conflict arises for them, as enforced by the racism of other players?

This I find to be tough, actually, now that I think about it some more.  Because if I see someone with a half-elf character, it can be really hard to tell if they're trying to pass as something else.   I'd like to follow their lead, and be considerate that way.   In other words, if they're out to deceive people about their race, sometimes OOCly I'd like to play along.   Though it can be hard to decide if someone is actually trying to pass or not.

[Larrath]

Much like with a sekret magicker, if a half-elf wants to keep their identity a secret then that's fine, and they don't have to constantly do this:

Code Select Expand


emote brushes back the hair over their LONG and TEARDROP-SHAPED ear, moving so discreetly that only a FILTHY TWINK can notice them.  You're not a twink, are you?  Huh?


However, I would still expect the half-elf to play like a half-elf who's trying, perhaps successfully, to pretend they're a human or an elf.  For instance, a half-elf playing as an elf might be dismissive about their successful thefts instead of gulp up the praise like his friends.
A half-elf playing human might court a woman for half a year and then invent some flaw in her and reject her after she finally agreed to sleep with him.

Or they could just always act like they have something to prove to everyone else, or always be just a little too close or too distant.

There are many things a well-played half-elf can do without throwing giant hints about what they really are; after all, the conflict is mostly internal as it is, and people don't have to watch the half-elf publicly argue with himself in order for her to be a good character.

[Anonymous]

It says in the game docs that half-elfs can pass for human which makes perfect sense to me.  And naturally many halfers are going to be raised to feel inferior, they're going to want to nick their ears.  They're going to want to hide it if they can (I would say for the most part).  In the same sense half-elves can also pass for elves, until they discover that they aren't apt for runs and such things.  I think it provides for interesting story lines and a nice inferiority complex thing.

I don't think that trying to hide you're a halfer is code abuse, half-elves have their strengths and weaknesses just like any other race.  It's just a matter of choice *shrug*

[Bebop]

That's me above^

I would also like to point out that not everyone rps correctly so I don't see any reason why to point out half-elfs that pose as humans specifically.  Maybe even some halfers think they are human.  And with alot of halfers posing as humans I usually do notice, angular or mismatched features even seen a few nicked ears which I thought was kind of cool.  Half-Elves should be played like they are nervous to be exposed, self-reliant and lonely same way most Allanaki commoners (especially natives) should be shying away ang sneering at gemmers but people don't.  In fact as mentioned before most gemmers are treated basically like anyone else.  I've always thought that I gem doesn't necessarily mean protection or acceptance, just that hey we'll let you live here but we're going to use you and have the potential to rip off that gem around your neck.  That's not how people always play it.  I think that going as far to edit the game docs permanently is a little extreme.

[Cuusardo]

The problem is people choosing the race half-elf for the specific purposes of gaining their racial advantages, without any intention of roleplaying the character as a half-elf.

[joyofdiscord]

The problem is people choosing the race half-elf for the specific purposes of gaining their racial advantages, without any intention of roleplaying the character as a half-elf.

Do these people really exist?  I mean, we commonly hear complaints about them on the GDB, but are they actually out there?

First, the half-elf racial advantages are not really that impressive.  Ride is nice, but any char can learn to ride before too long.  Decent Allundean is a more significant advantage, but who wants to speak that elvish trash anyway?  If you let it slip that you know it, people will also suspect you.  Also, half-elf stats are unimpressive.  If you want to be nimble and smart, elves do it better.  If you want to be strong and tough, humans are better.  Half-elves split the difference and don't really stand out at anything.  Plus, stats don't really matter much anyway.

Second, even if the player in question doesn't want to RP a half-elf, other players are (hopefully) going to thrust a very significant part of half-elf RP upon them, the discrimination.  The coded advantages of being a half-elf don't come anywhere near the social advantages of being a human.  Not by a looooooonng shot.

[Larrath]

The problem is people choosing the race half-elf for the specific purposes of gaining their racial advantages, without any intention of roleplaying the character as a half-elf.

Do these people really exist?  I mean, we commonly hear complaints about them on the GDB, but are they actually out there?

I daresay that most half-elves I've seen were, as far as I as a player can tell, not being played correctly.  The ones that were played right were a joy to watch, on the other hand.

First, the half-elf racial advantages are not really that impressive.  Ride is nice, but any char can learn to ride before too long.  Decent Allundean is a more significant advantage, but who wants to speak that elvish trash anyway?  If you let it slip that you know it, people will also suspect you.  Also, half-elf stats are unimpressive.  If you want to be nimble and smart, elves do it better.  If you want to be strong and tough, humans are better.  Half-elves split the difference and don't really stand out at anything.  Plus, stats don't really matter much anyway.

First of all, speaking an extra language is very useful, especially one as common as Allundean.  This isn't Tatlum or Nrizkt that a character will probably never get to use or constantly have to hide the knowledge.
Second, stats do matter.  Stats are the reason why muls require higher karma than any elementalist guild, and elementalists can get so lethal that it's sickening.
Stats aren't everything in the game by a longshot, but they do make a difference.

Second, even if the player in question doesn't want to RP a half-elf, other players are (hopefully) going to thrust a very significant part of half-elf RP upon them, the discrimination.  The coded advantages of being a half-elf don't come anywhere near the social advantages of being a human.  Not by a looooooonng shot.

If the player doesn't want to roleplay a half-elf, has 'man' in their sdesc and no hint of their race in their mdesc and act precisely the way humans do, who exactly is going to treat them like a half-elf?  There aren't that many people who will decide they notice a character is not a human simply because assess -v said so.  Furthermore, those who will notice will often be ignored or dismissed by the players who won't notice it.
Humans don't have social advantages.  They lack social disadvantages, and so does a completely hidden, human-like half-elf.

[Xygax]

Stats are not the reason muls require higher karma than any other elementalist guild.  But even if they weren't, muls statistically diverge so drastically from humans and dwarves that comparing them to half-elves in terms of stat-advantage over their parent races is utterly ridiculous.  (And lethality isn't the only criteria by which we rank karma classes and races -- half-giant warriors are probably the most downright lethal race/class combo on day one of any, in my experience.)

-- X

[joyofdiscord]

Yeah, all that's fair enough.  I did acknowledge that Allundean was useful.  Then I had to go back and read the original post to remind myself what is the actual purpose of this thread.     And it seems the IMMs agree with you that there is some suspicion regarding players' motives in choosing the race.

As far as what to do about it, it's quite the hairy question.  My first thought would be to require some sort of clues in the mdesc or the app will be rejected.  Of course, that's a highly subjective measure.  Is being tall and skinny a good enough clue?

Another measure might be to forbid players from explicitly identifying the character as human or elf in the mdesc, but that just makes "apparently human" a half-elf giveaway.  But whatcha gonna do?  Having to have "half-elf" in the sdesc is also a big giveaway, and this would be a nice compromise, in my mind.  It does mean a lot more rejected or rewritten applications over something comparatively minor, and consequently, more IMM time invested in overseeing this sort of thing.

Half-elves to Karma 1?  "Make it Karma!" is a common cry that I've heard  in regards most of the available mundane races and guilds.  With half-elves, it might not be a terrible idea just to trim the numbers down a bit, and also provide a halfway decent assurance of a halfway decent roleplayer behind them.

Also, no reason that the half-elf option can't be taken away from someone that misuses it, although that's a real fuzzy area.  How much half-elf roleplay is sufficient?  Just how messed up do they have to be anyway?

[Sokotra]

This topic kinda struck a nerve with me... having played half-elves off and on for the years that I've been playing, I've never felt that I've had any sort of advantage as being a half-elf.  I'm not saying that the allundean isn't useful, or the better understanding of wildlife etc... but to me the differences were just that - differences, not advantages.  In fact, I've always felt that my half-elves were underdogs in comparison to humans... I'm not sure why, maybe the RP of being shunned and trying to find acceptance and such.  Another thing that irritates me about being half-elf is the 'assess -v' command, of which I will say no more.  Again, I feel like being a half-elf, whether passing as human or not, is a disadvantage.  The advantages that may occur should be there, perhaps more so, because they are only useful in certain situations and not any sort of unbalancing factor in my opinion.  

My first reaction when seeing this topic come up was thinking that some sort of unnecessary change was going to take place.  For some reason I always get the feeling that the staff is paranoid about people trying to 'abuse' the game or get away with something.  Maybe the paranoia is justified in certain cases, but I feel like there are alot of unnecessary reactions that occur from the staff because of this paranoia.  Again, this is just my perception, I could be wrong... as I don't even have much time to play the game in depth... so don't get offended.

[Ghost]

I am actually with Sokotra here.  I do -believe- half-elves have no codewise advantage at all.  And yes I am saying Allundean is not as much of a good idea to pick up half-elf, nor ride or the stat bonus.  I infact would choose human over half-elf if stats were my main consiederation.  And being a half-elf always bites you back.  You do good work and you get less than what you deserve, or what you think you deserve (Which is a challenge and the good part of being a half-elf.  Challenge!)

The beauty of being a half-elf goes with the fact, that you are a shitblood to the elves, and half-neck to the humans.  Playing a half-elf is a lot of fun RPwise.  NOT codewise.

[Forty Winks]

I think what the staff is worried about is not half-elven roleplay in and of itself, they are more concerned with people acting like humans or elves and not having to be associated as a half-elf because of various reasons. And for that, all I have to say is that there will always be people who try to take advantages of the code, no matter how much information and guidelines are set out. Like twinks (which will unfortunately always exist) enforcement of the policies are needed. How strictly it is enforced depends on how much effort that is put into such actions. Although it isn't a very great solution, I feel the best way to ever handle such a case in an effective manner is to get everone, including willing players, on the watchout.

Maybe there's other alternatives to solve this dilema, but IMO it can't be solved completely without a strict application process, (as well as knowledge of guidelines, which I think there are already plenty of).

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Are half-elves really easily distinguisable as half-elves if they don't have any accessories to help them hide that fact? If they are, then it's reasonable to let them mention their half-bred features clearly in either their short description or description or both. If mutations may fluctate towards either end of the spectrum [human or elf], and it is not that easily recognisable [not to mention the mutations that normal people have], then maybe not. I support the right to see them as what they are though, if they have subtle differences enough to make us see different.

The immortalss have the right to strip us of the right of the race if they are misplaying the role purposely, maybe this will help deter people who wish to play half-elves for their advantages without roleplaying as them.

If they are clearly filthy half-breds, tensions and conflicts tend to arise with the right pcs about them. IF they are not, their mannerisms and features once closely inspected may again probably show them to be half-elves and conflict will come along. [with the right kind of pc again] What I mean is, conflict needs to be started by players who know who they are dealing with.

Coded advantages : Not much since he has coded disadvantages of being weaker and much of a loner where society doesn't accepts him.

I find it much harder to play an half-elf. But... despite the fact that most of the populace probably despise half-elves, there are quite a lot of people willing to accept them and talk to them. -I remember this bynner blond who was accepted by most if not all I saw her interact with, but it's just what I saw, may be different with what she encountered-

Hmm...why is it termed as a half-elf and not a half-human? Which one is more superior then? Half-elf seemed to be coined because of d&d, where elves are a superior race, can't be sure.