Feedback on Policy Changes

[Sanvean]

It's been about three months since we implemented the policy changes outlined here, and as this experiment draws to an end and we look at the results, I'd like to get some feedback from the players.

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

[Tamarin]

I really didn't notice much of a difference.  In fact, a lot of the emails I sent to staff went totally unanswered.  So if this was supposed to free up time for the staff to work on other things, I didn't see it, quite frankly.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In my four years of playing I have never

Made a special order through a merchant

Played a merchant

Created a clan

Requested a description change

And nope, I didn't notice any difference.  Except since the change I've never created an item or NPC unless asked to specifically.  And uhh... whenever a staff member posts a request like that on the GDB, I consider it as though they've asked me personally.

[Maybe42or54]

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?


6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

With the "Change locdesc" this is actually quite simple. Except for the two an entire lifetime, because frankly, my last PC needed two withen a span of two weeks, but I didn't and was forced to miss out on a lot of RP because of it. (It would have just been confusing to anyone if i just emoted it)

Other than that, nothing has really affected me.

[Larrath]

1) As someone who likes to write up objects when I'm feeling bored, I'm not exactly pleased about these restrictions, but I also see the problem in having fifty types of 5k+ pink silk gowns.

What I suggest, then, is just more freedom in writing objects - both the Current Projects blog, but maybe also a more general thing, also, for each category of items.
If you want to write more stonework/crafting items, for example, one could mention that more dining utensils will be useful (or at least more useful than another carving set on the incense burners).


2) I don't really like this change either, since it's taking away something that ICly exists and can be meaningful to several players.  Maybe special orders could be made to only be possible to make with direct PC help, be it hunters/Bynners going to bring the materials, or the crafters creating it in some RPT-like fashion.


3) I think that crafting submissions are one thing that we cannot have too much of, as long as they aren't boring and redundant.  It also promotes skillmaxing, and isn't perfectly logical.  Even a mediocre stonecrafter can make an Izdari disk with a different carving on it, and this actually had a negative effect on my PC crafter.  He could have gone in different directions had he been able to carve various insignias on objects.


4) I think that every object in the game has to be held to high standards, with no regard to who wrote it.  This is a good change.


5) I see absolutely no reason why clans should be forced open or closed.  If nobody is playing House Tenneshi and everyone wants to see, say, Lyksae open, then I don't see why this should be such a huge deal.  Also, I don't see why it should be impossible for long-lived PCs to create their own clans.
If super long-lived (150 day and up) PCs are made exception to this, then the rule is pretty much meaningless because there is going to be an exception almost everywhere after half a year.  If there are no exceptions then I believe this will do more harm than good.

Everyone always seems to proud in the interactivity of Armageddon in relation to any other MUD.  Our players besieged Allanak.  Our players freed Tuluk.  Our players made the Atrium.

This change, as I see it, is a step against all of these things.


6) Description changes should be limited by RL time, and nothing else.  It's practically impossible to predict when a non-suicidal/intelligent PC will die, and having to constantly save up your desc change because you might need it in two months can get annoying.
One desc change per two RL months is a good guideline, I think.  Most don't live that long anyway.

[Agent_137]

I've noticed zero difference, primarily because I never (similar to ERS)

Submitted anything

Made a special order through a merchant

Played a merchant

Created a clan

I did request a desc change once. It was cool. I was glad I got it. I would have been really sad if I didn't get it. But then my char died not long after, and it didn't really matter. I don't think anyone noticed but me. But it was still cool as hell.

Now, for my analysis:

Limiting submits to projects is bogus. Just say, "Only projects will be worked on. Any non project submits will go into a pool of non project submits that may or may not happen." Then, everyone is happy.

Special orders are lame. I hope they stay dead.

This merchant master crafter thing is great. A master crafter should have that freedom. If some one wants a super special item, they can damn well find the right crafter and convince him to spend all sorts of time on it.

A forever lock down on "No player created clans" would be very very damaging to this world. Better to say, "player created clans will have to go to great lengths to prove their survivbility before an immortal will devote time to making it coded." That way, everyone is happy.

Description changes should be limited by time played, and that's that. You play more, you'll need more of a desc change. Simple. Maybe make an exception every now and then for the guy who leaves arma for 4 years and comes back with a 30 year old "teenager." But otherwise, limited by time played.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I've done almost none of the above myself, so really have noticed no changes either. The only thing that applies to me is desc changes, and I agree it should be on a RL time limit. I haven't met too many REALLY long lived chars, but I can't imagine starting a char at the age of 20, and only being allowed 2 desc changes by the time they hit age 60.

But I am glad the part about plotlines is in the current thing, because sometimes it becomes necessary for someone to change their looks, not just decide it's time for a haircut, or something, and 2 desc changes would cut down on creative sneakiness.

I do think in addition, if someone has a recently made char and belatedly realized there's some wonky typo(s) that neither they nor the IMM caught (y'know, 4 am writing does have its drawbacks  :wink: ) then that shouldn't count against the total either. Now if they write every week with one new typo discovered, then someone ought to chew their ass then shoot them. *shrug*

[Delirium]

6) Description changes should be limited by RL time

I think one description change per 3 RL months is reasonable.

Doubtfully a character will need a description change even that often, but characters that start young and end up living to grow old may need more than two description changes their entire life, especially if they suffer any disfiguring and/or appearance-changing events.

[HardCarbon]

Hmmm what have I noticed..

Item X  should effect skill Y  except it effects unrelated skills Z and Borg

Example.. why is a Mining Pick good for skinning.. yet does not effect forage stone (no idea if it can be used for various mining things yet)


If I am digging for roots etc.. why does a hoe or shovel not aid?  (and how the feck do I know the hoe is a magic item?)

 Of all these handy tools.. why can't I tell which one to use for a task..

[jhunter]

5) I see absolutely no reason why clans should be forced open or closed. If nobody is playing House Tenneshi and everyone wants to see, say, Lyksae open, then I don't see why this should be such a huge deal. Also, I don't see why it should be impossible for long-lived PCs to create their own clans.
If super long-lived (150 day and up) PCs are made exception to this, then the rule is pretty much meaningless because there is going to be an exception almost everywhere after half a year. If there are no exceptions then I believe this will do more harm than good.

Everyone always seems to proud in the interactivity of Armageddon in relation to any other MUD. Our players besieged Allanak. Our players freed Tuluk. Our players made the Atrium.

My opinion of it as well.

Special orders are lame. I hope they stay dead.

Me too. There is almost always an alternative that already exists. No reason to waste time making another one that's only slightly different.

[LBO]

It seems to me that there have been quite a few little nifty code changes such as the command_emotes, resting on beds, etc. as well as a number of bug fixes over the past couple of months. I would guess that the policy changes have had something to do with this as the Imms have more time on their hands to look at background issues.

I'm not pushed about the no new clans thing personally. There is a great variety already out there with existing clans that will meet most desires in my opinion. Anyway, you want to start up a clan? Go for it - there's nothing stopping you. Not getting your nifty clan base, etc. coded especially just for your group doesn't mean that you can't have a good time playing things out or that you won't be successful. Examples such as besieging Allanak or forming the Atrium which required coded backup are fine but these are two examples many RL years apart created by players over a very long time with considerable effort on their part. If you want to emulate these players I say try it anyway - I would think that the Imms would not be inconsiderate to somebody who put in such effort and showed a sustained ability to generate realistic RP consistently for their fellow players over a long period of time. While things are locked down now the Imms have left the door open for re-evaluation but I think it should be something quite special indeed to become coded. Some group of elves scratching a living out in the Tablelands? Forget about it.

Overall the policy changes, while maybe appearing a little draconian at first,  seem good to me. I haven't noticed any drop in my enjoyment of the game and I like the improvements that are being added continually.

[Cuusardo]

I disagree with only two changes to characters being the limit.  Sometimes things happen IC that call for more changes.  I think a time limit between changes would be better.

As far as for closed clans, it's my opinion that there is one that is currently closed that needs to be reopened: Lirathan templars.  It is far too easy for certain people to get away with certain things in Tuluk, because logically the Lirathans should be able to sniff those things out and take action.  And since NPC Lirathans just sit there idly when there is no one animating them, many things go unnoticed.

Special items and special orders, however, I completely agree with.  There are tons and tons of really nifty items already in the game, and I think we really don't need fifty unique pink silk gowns, or a hundred unique gurth shell shields and what have you.  The game is not about objects, it is about roleplay.  Chances are there is already an item that exists that can suit the needs and desires of people.

[Akaramu]

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog

Thats the only one I have a problem with. I find it extremely disappointing if players are not encouraged to contribute something that might enhance the world (as opposed to submissions their PC would profit from).

Like Agent_137, I would find a 'pool' of unrequested submissions that may be implemented or not much preferrable.

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month.

This is great. More motivation for crafters to want to get somewhere with their role.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Were those guidelines published, or are they still in the works?

[ale six]

I haven't been around long enough to have reason to comment on anything but the description change rule, but I wanted to echo the other people asking to make description changes based on real life time instead of a character's lifetime. One desc change every 2-3 RL months seems reasonable to me.

[Anonymous]

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

Wait that doesn't seam fair...unless it only refers to clans that are family clans or re-opening clans that are already made and just need re-opening.

That's like telling the sun not to rise one day just because it'll save someone the time of waiting to go back to bed.

Really though...if you're making an IC organization, and you're doing things properly, then shouldn't it be fair to go ahead and open a new clan?

I hate to say it but I've been effected by that one, and not just minorly effected, I'll put it this way: I didn't know that was a rule back when it came, and those three months pretty much ruined an entire character for me.

Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, re-state or ammend that rule.

[Trenidor]

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

This may or may not have effected me...I really don't know for sure, but about the time these rules were instated I believe I missed out on a much needed desc change, came back after a long break from arm (a couple months) and nothing has changed...

[Vanth]

Hmmm what have I noticed..

Item X  should effect skill Y  except it effects unrelated skills Z and Borg

Example.. why is a Mining Pick good for skinning.. yet does not effect forage stone (no idea if it can be used for various mining things yet)


If I am digging for roots etc.. why does a hoe or shovel not aid?  (and how the feck do I know the hoe is a magic item?)

 Of all these handy tools.. why can't I tell which one to use for a task..

Just as an FYI, these things can be noted by you, and fixed by us, if you use the 'idea' 'bug' or 'typo' commands.  Unfortunately, we're not all psychic yet.

[Gaare]

2-) By reducing the number of new items,  PC crafters had more chance to trade with other PCs which means more RP opportunities. That was something very good.

5-) I feel there are more players in coded clans ,which have rich documentation and background, right now and that's very positive change. Maybe IMMs decide change this policy in VERY rare occasions and IF that would be a good addition to game (IMHO I doubt ARM really needs IMM supported and documented, a new D-elf tribe, a new merchant house, a new warrior group, a clan of mercenaries, a new 'rinth gang, etc... )

Other than these, recently there had been great code changes and additional scripts. (Weather, emote, archery, sit, change, etc....) "THANKS FOR THEM ONCE MORE"  As a player I did not know how exactly the policy changes affect IMMs, but if you could find more free time for working on codes... Then I believe those policies should stay.

[DejaVu]

I really didn't notice much of a difference.  In fact, a lot of the emails I sent to staff went totally unanswered.  So if this was supposed to free up time for the staff to work on other things, I didn't see it, quite frankly.

Ditto.

[Ghost]

.... recently there had been great code changes and additional scripts. (Weather, emote, archery, sit, change, etc....) "THANKS FOR THEM ONCE MORE"  As a player I did not know how exactly the policy changes affect IMMs, but if you could find more free time for working on codes... Then I believe those policies should stay.

[sarahjc]

It's been about three months since we implemented the policy changes outlined here, and as this experiment draws to an end and we look at the results, I'd like to get some feedback from the players.

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

This is good n my opinion. It promoted efficiency and helps projects along.

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.


3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

I liked this/didn't like it.  I wanted a special item during this time and there were no PC master crafters that could get one to me.  I agree there are lots of nice tings in the database, and substitutions could be easily made, but I  don't know how much useful time this freed up for the staff.  I think special items should be a stringent case by case type of thing.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Again, this is also good and promoted efficiency.

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I think if you have people that want to play in a clan, you should allow that clan.  Especially player run clans that require little Imm support.

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I think this should be a case by case basis. I would say that if you give a PC a max of three and then allow life altering event changes, then this is just fine.


Over all throughout this time, I did not feel an overwhelming staff presence in the game.  I didn't notice more clann imm interaction than usual, in fact my Clan Imm interaction has declined a bit. I also have not  seen very many NPC animations.

One thing I have noticed is less crashes, more updates, bugs fixed, new code implemented, turnaround time on question to the mud and from my own immortals greatly improved.  

It seems to me as if the break simply gave the Immortals a chance to do some very much needed house cleaning.  Which in and of itself is a good thing.  Cleaning the motor will certainly help it run better.

[Xamminy]

I'll note, since there seems to be some confusion, you can start up your own organization or family in game.  The rule about 'no new clans' simply means that there will be no coded support, as in the clan itself would not be coded into the game like the roughly hundred other clans in the game, many of which most people have never heard of.

[Anonymous]

I can't say for certain that its a result of this policy change, but I've noticed an *incredible* reduction in the time it takes to complete orders in a certain merchant house.  As for everything else, I can't really comment that its affected me any.

[Trenidor]

I'll note, since there seems to be some confusion, you can start up your own organization or family in game.  The rule about 'no new clans' simply means that there will be no coded support, as in the clan itself would not be coded into the game like the roughly hundred other clans in the game, many of which most people have never heard of.

I agree that it really isn't that great to have hundreds of unknown clans out there that no one knows about, but why not just eliminate them do to some IC reason if no one is in them and nothing is done about it?

It wouldn't be that hard to send on of the major delf tribes out to kill their puny neighbor who lives somewhere else and doesn't bother to even have trade negotiations that are meaningful.

In the case of the other type of clan, ones that players establish for themselves, I guess it depends on the clan.

Some sneaky groups living in the rinth I don't think should have their own custom hideout because really there's plenty of places one could 'say' is their hideout and just that they can't quit out. They wouldn't really need staff help to create their own documentation because people are smart enough to know what's acceptable and what isn't.

On the hand of a group that specifically would require certain things from staff members, your own environmental effects (basically that's all I see the staff would be needed for in a player built clan as opposed to family clans) such as attacking allanak with slaves, tearing appart buildings, burning houses; Then I see it as imperative that an immortal work with the group.

I for one don't like it when people don't respond to my emails, which seams to be one of the things that some of these policies have done. (I'm guessing staff members have such a hard time as it is answering mail that they skip over anything about item makes, custom purchasing, etc. And I would too.)

Really however, I think it would be better if clans didn't even have assigned imms. If someone needed to co-ordinate a RPT for their house, they could easily send to the MUD account with a subject like: "Such and such house RPT Imm needed" This would especially be better since the new rules have taken place meaning clan imms aren't required to put in specific special order stuff.

[Sanvean]

I'm confused because on the one hand you say "I think it would be better if clans didn't even have assigned imms" but also "On the hand of a group that specifically would require certain things from staff members...I see it as imperative that an immortal work with the group."

There may be some confusion about what a clan immortal does.  On the list, which may vary from clan to clan, are:

Clan maintenance, which includes but is not limited to: creating new objects, NPCs and rooms as needed; keeping up on bugs and typos for existing objects, NPCs, and rooms; replacing NPCs and objects lost due to crashes.
Running RPTs and/or assisting with player-driven RPTs
Watching over players to help them play within the clan guidelines
Maintaining the clan forum on the GDB
Posting on the IDB with clan updates so other staff know what's going on with the clan
Helping with reimbursements or special requests from their clan players
Keeping up with status reports from their clan players and answering questions as needed.
Creating and maintaining clan documentation.
Monitoring new code and scripts and seeing where they can be used for their clan.
Etc.

All coded clans need at least a few items from this list, generally.  Shifting the responsibility to the mud account to arrange RPTs, beyond putting all of the work on the shoulders of whoever is currently answering the mud mail, adds another layer of communication and slows things down even further.

If your emails are consistently not being answered, then you may want to check your mailer, because sometimes the problem turns out not to be on our side of things.  Speaking as the person answering email over the last month (Nessalin is currently handling it), I'm not aware of any pending requests from you, and I don't see any posted on the request board.  If you're referring to a specific clan immortal, you're welcome to drop a nudge mail to the mud account and we'll take a look at getting you an answer.  This is one of the reasons why we ask that people cc mud when mailing their clan immortal(s).  It helps to state what your desired outcome is early in the email, as well as being as clear and concise as possible.  If you are one of the people who emails multiple times in one day, your emails may be seen as lower prioirty than some others; in such cases consolidating emails may help.

When I asked this question of the immortals, many of them felt that eliminating special orders was a huge relief (it also solves the past problem of PC merchants being harassed by customers who felt their orders weren't being filled quickly enough).  A number felt that it allowed them to focus on their clans - one person said "I felt more able to just relax and have fun with players. Not that I couldn't before - but I didn't have that sense of impending doom from a long list of to-dos during this period. "

At the same time, people didn't take advantage of the current projects list as much as we'd hoped - and suggestions on how to make that process work better are quite welcome.  Right now we're talking on the immortal board about what to keep, what to change, and what to scrap, so this is your chance to have some input into these decisions, which is one reason why I'd like genuine, thought-out feedback.

Here are some of my own thoughts on it:

I'd like to keep the no special orders policy. It seems to me that these had gotten out of hand and were a) eating up a lot of merchant clan immortal time and b) leading to problems with players pressuring PC merchants about their order status. If we allow mastercrafters to create/submit items along the same guidelines, then it shifts responsibility to them and also makes becoming a mastercrafter meaningful, giving people something to strive for.

New clans. I'd still like to see people be pretty conservative about opening new clans or reopening defunct ones, because it seems that we end up diluting the player base every time we add one, even if it's the niftiest, keenest one ever. I'm proposing that if someone wants to start a clan, or to adopt a player-started one and give it immortal support, such as having it coded, they must post a proposal on the IDB outlining what gaps it fills, what benefits it brings to the game, and pointing to fleshed out documentation.   The information in http://www.armageddon.org/ic/clans/ still applies as far as player-started clans go.