Karma for the untouchables.

[Forest Junkie]

I think the karma system we have currently is a great thing. It is quick, efficient, and overall a fair way to award hard working players as a way to show the staff has placed their trust in the.

But, I think it could be better.

Some ideas I have been mulling over for awhile that could hopefully help make the current system even better:
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1) A 'points' system like that of SoI (Shadows of Isildur)

This would allow hardworking players who have been seen by staff to be given a set number of points in which they could use to "spend" on races or guilds that are currently locked from their use. After spending the points on these races, the guild again becomes locked until the player has earned back those points.

Pros

A) Will ease up the number of players who consistently play high karma roles, thereby cutting off other potential players who may not have the required karma to play a role they must special app for.

B) Would hopefully cut back on twinking. ie The more you twink, the staff will notice, and not award any points for the play of your character, thereby removing any chance you have of getting new races/guilds/etc.

Cons

A) Could be possibly time consuming for staff. A given.

B) Could create feelings of hostility between players, as those with more points would be considered "immpets" by the other, less fortunate players.
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2) An entirely new system which will only reward certain guilds or races to you when it has been determined by staff that you can correctly play the guild or race. This would be quite similar to the current system in place, yet ways which it would be different include:

A) After you have shown you are capable of playing a half-elf, and have done so repeatedly with several characters, the staff will award you with the race option 'mul', as the races can be somewhat similar in their personalities at times.

B) After you have shown you are capable of playing a dwarf, and have done so repeatedly with several characters, the staff will award you with the race option 'half-giant', for various reasons.

C) After you have shown you are capable of playing a city-elf, and have done so repeatedly with several characters, the staff will award you with the race option 'desert-elf'. This just makes sense.

Other possible 'branches' include:

D) Successful ranger pc's whom are well played may have the mage classes "Rukkian" and "Vivaduan" unlocked.

E) Successful warrior pc's whom are well played may have the mage classes "Krathi" and "Elkrosian" unlocked.

F) Successful rouge classes (assassin/burg/pp) would get Drov/Whiran.
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That's enough for now. Add your own ideas. Discuss.

[Agent_137]

I don't like "spending" points because I'm spoiled at not having to spend them now.

Further, that system requires much more points added to be effective. It does require a lot more IMM oversight due to that. It's not a bad system, it has merit, but I don't think a switch is necessary. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As far as the second option, no no no, god no. I think those branches would make even less sense than some of the branches with skills. I hate the branch system in every form. Generally because it's limiting and not always logical or 100% related and relevant.

I will say, though:
Good ideas, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Larrath]

I'm against these systems, for these reasons:

First of all, I think a point system can be incredibly frustrating.  I personally waited for nearly two months before I made my first magicker, and the poor guy got himself killed in under an hour and a half.   I would hate to have to wait another month or so until I got the points to play the PC I actually want.
And this is actually my key argument about this; karma never runs out because it is a measure of confidence and trust the staff has in your ability to play in a correct, interesting and involving manner.
If I want to play a specific PC, I want to play it and not another PC.  Playing one PC (especially in a role you already know you're good in) in order to open up your restricted options is going to get very tired very fast and, in two words, will suck.


As for class/race 'branching', I also say no, because the best thing Armageddon has given me is versatility in my play.  Had I not played a particular merchant, for instance, I would never have the courage to play a particularly rude and daring house guard.
I believe that this type of branching will encourage people to settle on one role until they have 'mastered' it (read: grind it over and over until there's nothing left), and only then consider moving on to a next role.

In reality, I find that it is much better to play a radically different role each time; if you played the assassin, try playing the herbalist.  If you played an aide, go to the 'rinth.  If your noble got offed, play in Red Storm...and so on and so forth.  Currently, the classes and races are all split pretty nicely into the karma categories...even if it does take us all a little longer to get that Drovian/Nilazi dual-elementalist mul this way.

[Vanth]

I think this is an interesting idea in many ways, but perhaps unsuited to our current system or administrative stucture.

If you have the karma for something, we assume you're worthy of it.  If it's a 1-4k character, maybe we'll watch to make sure.  At that level, generally, we'd rather give you the karma and let you prove yourself unworthy of it, than wait and wait for proof to give it to you. (this is a generality)

For a 5+karma character, the scrutiny tends to become a little tougher.  We start to look at if/how you deserve your karma, even if you're doing well with a 2-k class.

In some cases, special apps can help you: if you think you've been overlooked for karma, and have an idea in mind, by all means, try it.  I can think of at least two examples where I've personally said, "So-and-so's doing alright with X, let's give them a regular chance at X (or Y)."

At the same time, some people have been given 8 karma without ever trying a 2-karma character.  Why?  Because they have proven themselves over and over again (in both roleplay and trustworthiness), whether with a magicker or with a ranger.

[Anonymous]

Ugh, nothing against SoI but I don't like the points spending structure.

[RunningMountain]

I plan to not use any karma or point system in my mud.  What I am going to do is allow anyone to apply for any race/class character, but they must have certain comments (mainly positive if they want a human defiler) on the account and the overall decision goes to the approving imm, therefore the staff that approves applications are going to be Roleplay Administrators really, not just any staff member.  
So for example, you see Acccount X has applied for a half-elf warrior, even with a few negative comments that would probably be accepted.  
Then you have Account B, applying for their first character and they want to play a mulish psychic-warrior - not gonna happen, certain classes like the psychic warrior will be reserved for only the most level-headed, experienced players, because of the great power it comes with, therefore any player can put in for a defiler, are they going to get it? Not likely, unless they have 10 past characters all with positive comments AND there is an opening in the PC population for one.  Just a simple system that will work.

-RM

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I voted to keep the current system.   I don't think the system is perfect, though.  Just from my own experience, looking at which of my past characters earned karma, it seems as if our karma system currently rewards those with more hours available in the day and those with high-visibility PCs.  

My life has changed a bit over the past four years.  I put in some serious hours on my first PC and grew to a pretty visible role in the game.  I would like to think that I've become a better player.  Now that I'm married, have a child, a more demanding job, and less time to be online. . . I find myself putting way fewer hours online and staying away from high-responsibility roles that I know I can't give the attention they need.  Of course, I might not be a better player these days, there's always that.  

It seemed, from looking at my account notes, that there was a relationship between the number of hours I played daily and the rate at which I accumulated karma.

Which, I mean, makes sense.  The more you're online, the more visible your role, the greater chance for an Imm to see and approve.   If you play out of sight, you're out of mind.   I don't think this is enough to overhaul the system, ESPECIALLY since you don't have to have karma to play any role in the game.   Just ask.  Granted, I'm still intimidated some by the character application process. . . so I doubt I'll be trying a special app any time soon, but we players have that option.  

To veer this back around to the topic at hand, if I lost what karma I had just because I chipped away with 1k roles, then I probably wouldn't regain it for a long time.   That wouldn't bother me much because my favorite characters to play happen to be 0-karma, but I would some day like to play a mul.  (I guess I could always special app it)

[Cenghiz]

I don't have 5 karma, still I do have access to a drovian.. An imm or imms decided I played a drovian well and, it remains after I played a special app drovian. Heh, I have a plan for a merchant for the next char, then I'll be pleased to play it again.
Also I will understand if my d-elf option is simply removed, I suck at playing d-elves..
So, the current system is flexible.. If you play a specific class/race well, you're allowed to play it as much as you want even if you don't have enough karma points. I've heard some friends of mine had their certain classes removed, so the opposite also happens sometimes.
I don't want a point-based system.. Sometimes for long periods I only have access to the game in daylight in Turkey, which makes it nearly impossible for an imm to watch me. So I would have to say goodbye to that sweet h-giant role till I can spend some time at late night to be visible after playing it once. I wouldn't love that.
The current system is fine. You gain karma according to your Rping capabilities and sometimes extras are given or something's taken based on your visible performance.

[jmordetsky]

nah...

[Akaramu]

I don't have 5 karma, still I do have access to a drovian.. An imm or imms decided I played a drovian well and, it remains after I played a special app drovian.

I can think of at least two examples where I've personally said, "So-and-so's doing alright with X, let's give them a regular chance at X (or Y)."

The more you're online, the more visible your role, the greater chance for an Imm to see and approve. If you play out of sight, you're out of mind.

Thats exactly what saddens me about the current system. I believe my Drovian was my best played PC ever and totally blew everything else I ever came up with away. Unfortunately she never managed to get clanned, and despite all my attempts to stay out of trouble died at under 5 days played. I very much hoped for comments / feedback, but there was no time.

I have yet to figure out how to not die horribly at a fairly early stage of play. That doesnt mean that I cant potentially do as well with my roles as someone who has time to play 8+ hours a day, stays alive for 30+ days played, and / or rises to an influential rank within their clan. Yet it is them who get to keep their race /guild options added or get karma, and I dont want to special app every 2 months because my PCs die before any imm notices they existed. This prevents me from being able to 'show' anyone how well (or how poorly) I could do with a karma role.

Also, I play off peak hours.

Sometimes the karma system seems unfair, and feels like random chance lottery with part of the playerbase having an advantage over others.

Unfortunately, I also dont know how it could be improved. Drawing even more players away from the active playerbase by making them immortals to evaluate the others probably wouldnt be a very good solution either.

[Jacques]

Regarding FJ's suggestions:

1) I really don't like this one, because of many of the reasons discussed. My two big ones are these: a) it requires more imm intervention, meaning that it will give our overworked staff even LESS time to do their REAL jobs and b) if you "save up" points for a character class that dies at 4 hours of playing time, having to save them up again would be heartbreaking. I like the idea that if my first Vivaduan dies quickly, I could go make a Rukkian and still have a chance to explore what playing a magicker is like. No vote from me for this idea.

2) I really don't like the branching system, and here's why - I don't want to have to play every kind of class out there. There are guilds I currently have no interest in playing, because I don't think they'd suit my style of play. By denying me the things I *WANT* to play because I haven't played things I *DON'T* want, you're diminishing my enjoyment of the game. No-vote on this one.

I don't really have a problem with our current system for karma. My experience is that the staff are fairly generous with their first couple of points, so long as you play your characters consistently, don't twink, and learn a bit about the game. To me, it represents trust that you have earned, and the fact that you're a player who provides an enjoyable experience for everyone ELSE, as well as enjoying the game yourself.

[sarahjc]

I voted for the current system as well. I am not sure I like the point system and I definitely don't like the second option, and that is because I currently have a few grades of Karma that I don't use and most likely will not use because I don't have interest in playing those kinds of PC's.  That doesn't mean that I will never play them, but in such a system even though I may be an exceptional Role player, I may never move up. Forcing players to advance by playing every role well kind of takes the fun out of it for me. I would rather be rewarded for responsible and quality role play of all my PC's.

I think the current system works great, it allows for exceptions and keeps the game on a level playing field.

[jhunter]

I think that the current system is fine....there is one change I would like to see made though.

Instead of the imms awarding karma only when you happen to catch their attention I think that they should review accounts every so often and award karma accordingly.

I believe I've seen imms post such on the board before...sometimes people go unnoticed.

The problem with it now is that you can do some great things, have alot of fun and create alot of fun for those around you but if an immortal doesn't happen to be around to see it then it goes unnoticed by the staff completely.

That's why I'm all about mailing kudos to the staff when I feel someone should be noticed for their rp. It may not net them karma in the short run but it may get them noticed.

[Akaramu]

Instead of the imms awarding karma only when you happen to catch their attention I think that they should review accounts every so often and award karma accordingly.

Two thumbs up from me, I was just about to post a similar idea.

I would love to see karma more based on overall account and character notes, so a two-year player with 15 short-lived but very well played and realistic PCs would have about as much karma as a two-year player with 3 highly visible well-played long lived PCs who sparked everyone's attention. Karma is about trust in a player, not their ability to keep characters alive for a long time, and be online often and during peak hours.

[Jacques]

I'm curious about how a review of someone's account would provide enough information for a staff member who hadn't observed the person playing to say "Yeah... I trust this person more than I did before".

I also wonder at the assumption that if staff members feel positively enough to make several good notes to someone's account that they wouldn't already have awarded karma. It seems to me that if someone went to put an "atta boy" on an account and found four recent examples already in place, they'd start looking into the karma-giving process on their own. Sure, things might be missed from time to time, but I also think that people who RP regularly and well don't go "unnoticed" forever.

That having been said... try to stay alive. It can't hurt.  :wink:

[Marauder Moe]

Keep in mind that with the addition of Halaster and Raesanos as the immortals for unclanned characters and Tlaloc as the immortal for unclanned magickers, short-lived and independant characters might get more notice.  Also the imms have said before that if you strongly feel you should have more karma than you do you can request an account review.

[Kalden]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Rhyden]

I didn't vote. I don't really like the two introduced systems, neither do I really enjoy the current one. Of course, all the usual -oldbies- typically remain true to what this game was in the beginning. I would like to see some change to the karma system, but not particularily like these newly introduced ones.

[deinol]

I think the premise for the poll is incorrect.

What's wrong with someone always playing high-karma characters if they've earned it? I've found most people play the same sort of character over an over again. My cousin loved rangers. Any non-ranger he made didn't last a week. A friend of mine is always making spellcasters in a different game. People will play what they like, and shouldn't have to re-earn the right to play their favorite role just because they were slain for something stupid. We know how often that happens in Arm.

Now, if someone is abusing the high karma roles, remember the staff can take away karma just as easily as they can grant it. Myself, I've never witnessed any such abuse, but I'm not really in a position to see it.

And as far as other players who need to special app to get those positions, that presumes that only a limited amount of people can have high karma. That just isn't the case. The imms would love it if every player was responsible enough to try their hand at a magicker. The goal of the Karma system isn't to reduce the number of people playing certain roles, but instead to try and help ensure that the people playing the more difficult roles will not abuse them or play them in a way not fitting with the world.

I remember the days of no Karma, and I don't have any complaints. I think the system is fine the way it is. I think my only request is for there to be an easier way of us players to see notes from the imms. I know they make notes, and some of them aren't meant for us to see. But maybe they could add a flag that lets them say, this note I want the player to have access to. Feedback really is the best way to encourage good rp.

Anyway, I voted no. Then again, most of the time I can enjoy playing a character with any class, since I try to make a character who has an occupation that doesn't necassarily need many skills to back it up. Storyteller, gambler, bard, prophet, rebel, loyal toadie, whatever. There is much you can do without any coded skills at all.

[Maybe42or54]

What I don't get. My very best Rp times are the hour or so before I -know- I am going to die. Or when I -know- I am going to kill someone.

Now, none of this is ever commented on by other players. I was so suprised and disheartened when I got my account notes because well, most of them were bad.

The only good one.
"Has very nice wishes."

As for the points system. It sounds okay, except the only things I want to play are a mul, a human, warrior, and maybe a merchant again.
Though my merchant died to a very awesome backstabbing story with well known school's teacher and her sex toy.

[jhunter]

The goal of the Karma system isn't to reduce the number of people playing certain roles, but instead to try and help ensure that the people playing the more difficult roles will not abuse them or play them in a way not fitting with the world.

This is not entirely true, the imms have stated before in discussions about the karma system that the high karma roles are limited to a certain number and that because some people with the karma are taking up those slots people who are turning in very good special apps are being turned down due to the number of such roles.

[joyofdiscord]

Yep.  In fact, I believe Imms have, on several occasions cited limiting the number of rare roles in the game as a direct goal of the karma system.  If we were all uber and had 8 karma and 40-day defilers, who would there be to get scared of us?  A Zalanthas full of magickers would run counter to the conception of Zalanthas.  

I believe it was also mentioned that muls were moved up to K7 -specifically- because there were too many free muls running around, not necessarily because muls are so uber (which they are, by my understanding).

[Maybe42or54]

As for the branching idea.

I don't want to play a half elf, simply because I can't get into the mind set.
But, I believe I can get into the Mul Mindset, because well, I can't really handle people looking down on me as a disgusting half elf, but I could handle someone looking down at me as property.

[Spoon]

I never liked the newer SOI system. I got RP points on their older system because I got involed in some nice scenes in the very short amount of time I spent on that mud. The new system, however, favours players who spend more time on the mud, which I don't like, as players who simply don't have the time get jack shit.

[Northlander]

What we have now is what I prefer. Though I suppose there are improvements that could be made. Some staff are freely handing karma out (how many points do you have, Creeper?), but all immortals are too afraid of taking it away. This is half the karma stigma we have now, the other half being the worrying of players.

Hand out extremely easy points all the way up to one, and then take it increasingly slower. Remove points for any bad behaviour, or just because you feel like it. It'd be a slow process to change everyone's way of looking at karma, and it would include immortals being called all sorts of funny names, and considering the extra work of doublechecking all complaints, I'd say you shouldn't allow any of those at all. There might also at first be the problem of too few ordinary PCs, but you could revert back to what we have now after a couple of months - and it would still have gotten the karma bug out of everybody's asses.

Do only Highlords get to give and remove karma?