Karma for the untouchables.

[Sanvean]

Do only Highlords get to give and remove karma?

Any staff member at the level of Storyteller or above can award (or remove) karma.

[/quote]

[Smoky]

To let all of you know in advance I did not take the time to read all of the replies on this thread.  I may stray from the direction the thread has gone, but I'll try to remain on the topic of the karma system.  Not that I don't feel what anyone else said was not important, I'm just on a limited amount of time and some of you are taking after AC and posting huge replies.

It is my experience that the karma system is a good concept in itself, but in order for it to work well needs immortals to actually watch players doing what they do best(or not so good in some cases) which is playing the game.  I am aware that there are staff from all over the world so there can be someone from staff logged on at all times, but how much of them are busying themselves with their own clan's needs, not to mention the general responsibilities of the staff?   How often does the player of an independant loner get feedback on how they play?   I can tell you now that I've never heard -ANYTHING- back while playing an independant loner unless I've done something 'terribly' wrong or stumbled into an imm-led plot.   At which point I'm just told that I'm not emoting enough, I'm not recognizing something I should have, or in some cases I just get karma stripped from my account w/o finding out why until it's too late to even attempt to try and correct what I was doing(this has happened to me before btw).

It appears to me that immortals don't document progression in the playing very much unless you are playing a 'priority' character.   The staff having constant watch over these characters if purely fine by me, because I feel that some of the people who play these roles don't play them adequately.  Does this mean I have to play one of these roles in order to get recognized as a player for my ability to play(or inability for which I would like some sort of feedback to help me correct the problem)?

They can't just hand out karma like candy.  So what is it exactly that makes a staff member think that someone's karma level should be raised?  Trust for the player to make the decision not to abuse things that they could and/or that they will play their role the right way.  Why should someone spend a whole load of time on their character to make sure they're playing it right just to find out at the end that they only received one comment like "Roleplayed out skinning well"?  What is the standard now?  It seemed like once every seven days playing time for the average player back when I played avidly.

I can tell you this right now:  The reason that made me turn away from this game was that I was spending large amounts of time to flesh out my characters and the only thing I heard back from the staff was a complement from the staff member that they liked looking over my character applications because I went into detail.  After I did a few of these and found myself only able to make the same type of characters I became frustrated.  I used to do special application characters all the time but the applications are skimmed down to the little details that IMO are looked over in regular character applications.  Not only that, but special applications can take weeks, or even over a month in one case of mine, before they are approved for play.   I find myself with the same options as most of the other players I know and play with, or less, and it makes me feel like my hard work is going toward nothing.

How do we fix the problem?  I don't know.  But hopefully it'll spark some thought and discussion into the matter.

Smoky - Mullet Man

[joyofdiscord]

How often does the player of an independant loner get feedback on how they play?

I haven't been around real, real long, and don't even have much daily time to log on, but about a week or two ago I got some positive feedback on my independent loner, so it's definitely possible.  So at least once, an IMM was willing to watch some of the duller parts of my characters' perpetual solo emoting. (I think some of what he does is far more interesting, hopefully it's been noticed from time to time.)  Seems, though, that you've been noticed enough to get -some- karma, at least, so they must be aware of you.

[Smoky]

The way I came across my karma really has nothing to do with my roleplay.  Three years ago or so I told Nessalin how people were making city-elf rangers, and reported someone for quitting out while we were running from a mantis which ultimately ended my 17 day character's life. That guy was such a wiener-butt.  I hope no one ever does that again.  If he would have just stuck with it we would have all lived, we'd just be a lot poorer because we left our backpacks on our kanks and left those behind when they ran out of stamina.

Yeah, I'm a rat.

[amoeba]

You know I don't have a problem with the Karma system persay, the issue as I see it, is more how feedback is given. Often people simply don't know if what they are doing is correct or incorrect at any given time.

For example the other night I had a minor situation, which my character handled. After I thought about it awhile I wondered if it should have been handled differently.  Now here comes the quandary, how do I find out?  

Posting it on the GDB is out of the question as it is too IC sensitive, plus I also noticed that people who are not in a position to comment do so anyway, and separating the meaningful from the useless is a task in and of itself.  

Should I email the MUD, or my IMM? They may or may not have been watching, so I would have end up sending in an over lengthy log and an explanation into my characters motivations to provide context. Oh great more stuff for an IMM to do, just to answer a probably minor question.  I also am reluctant to write in ask for this sort of stuff, it's time consuming on both my and the IMM's part. Personally I rather play the game.  Occasionally the few times that I have done it, the answers have been somewhat spare and a bit terse, bordering on lecturing.  I understand some of the knee jerk reactions to responding to someone you don't know, but yes I do read the documentation, if fact I reread it often, and yes I understand you do have a life outside the game, as do I. This last bit is not intended to be a slam or flame in any fashion, but rather to give some insight as to my reluctance to ask this type of question.

But I digress.

You know, I'm not sure I have an answer.  I think it would be helpful if people had more proactive feedback as to how they are doing and how well they stand up to the ideal.  It is frustrating thinking you did something right or wrong and not really knowing until you die, and then maybe some new option might be there on your karma list.  My current take on the whole issue is I play it the best that I can personally figure out, and will grit my teeth and send in a question when I am really unsure. If it works that I guessed correctly then great, if not, well, I'll just deal with that.

[Larrath]

If you've been playing for a long time (let's say four months), don't have any karma and think that you deserve it, you can email the MUD account and politely ask that your account is gone over to make sure that you have as much karma as you should, that's first.
One of the very best things about Arm (even better than the fantabulous emoting system) is the level of communication you can have with the staff.

Something looks wrong?  Ask!
One email inquiring about karma isn't such a huge waste of time for the staff, I'd think.  Just don't try fishing with it - ask once and have your reply.  No point in asking every week.


Now this is a slight derailment, but if you have a question about handling an IC situation, I really don't see why you shouldn't ask your clan imms if you feel a need to.  You don't have to send a log; just write one or two paragraphs of summary, and ask.

As for wanting to know how you're doing in a role - again, just ask.  I did it, and I got an answer.  You can either ask how VNPC clanners are reacting to your PC, or you can ask your clan imms if they think you're handling it well, or if they have any suggestions.

(Of course, this refers to questions like "My PC, blah blah blah, leader, blah blah blah, I keep trying to give everyone things to do but I'm out of ideas, any suggestions?" and other feedback-type questions, and not "Do you think I'm a good leader?  Am I getting karma for this role?  Why not?  What?  J00 suck!").


Communicate.  Karma is a measure of the staff's trust in you, as a player.  There is no better way to establish trust by communicating reliably, truthfully and, if need be, frequently.

[Smoky]

If you've been playing for a long time (let's say four months), don't have any karma and think that you deserve it, you can email the MUD account and politely ask that your account is gone over to make sure that you have as much karma as you should, that's first.

Four months?!  I had to wait over a year before I got my first piece of karma.  I understand that some people might pick up on the game quicker than others but holy crap, they've barely got their feet wet.

One email inquiring about karma isn't such a huge waste of time for the staff, I'd think.

What're you saying?!  Has it changed that much in the year I was gone that the staff is actually telling us to e-mail in about our karma?  As far back as I can remember playing this game and reading the GDB we've been told never to do such a thing because if you deserve karma, you should already have it.

The only problem with this, Larrath, is that there isn't always sufficient data to make a basis on.  People I play with tell me I'm a good player, but if you read all the notes on my account I don't think you would come to this conclusion unless the staff is hiding things from me in those blacked-out lines I always see when I get my notes back.   One might even say, based on the info in my notes, that I am a bad or untrustworthy player.  What good would e-mailing the mud account do for the people in this type of situation?

Also, I would like to add a note to someone who posted earlier that the imms are hesitant to remove karma.  They don't waste any time stripping race/class options if they feel you've abused it.  That's from my experience anyway.

MulletMan - Smoky

[Larrath]

You played for a year and you didn't get karma.
Did you ever send the MUD account an email?  I presume that you didn't, so I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is at fault for this.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9988&highlight=karma+email
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7667&highlight=karma+email

That's it, two threads are enough.


If the staff does not have sufficient data to assess your karma, they'll probably go like this:
"Hey, Account Jobless wants his karma to be assessed.  Acct notes are empty, anyone seen him play?"
"Yeah, I saw his ranger get eaten by a pink mek last week, not bad."
"Okay then."
+1 karma.

Or, even more likely -
"Hey, can anyone keep an eye on Account Jobless a little?  I need some info to re-assess his karma."
"Kay, but only if I get dibs on eating his brainz."
"Deal."

[Smoky]

Looks like I have been proven wrong.   I guess some changes took effect in my leave of absence.  Back when I played avidly I had to deal with mericless staff members like Halaster, Krrx and Bhagarva.  Oh man did screw up a couple times and boy did I get a foot in the ass.   I've heard Nessalin is a pretty unforgiving fellow but remarkably I've had nothing but good things happen when it comes to his involvement.

Oh you see, Larrath, I've been playing since Jul 2000.  Back then there wasn't that big of playerbase, needless to say the staff wasn't that big either.  You didn't bother them for something like that back then.  And on top of that it was easier to get around.  There weren't as many things out there that wanted to eat you.  That and back then I wasn't burned out and I once spent a month working with a staff member setting up a special character(only to have him killed at three hours by the infamous Delerek{I hope he liked losing his dwarf option for that twinkishness}).  Now-a-days all the characters I spend a lot of time fleshing out get killed by someone I don't think should have had the position/role they had in the first place.

Hmm.   I'll just shut up now.

[Akaramu]

You played for a year and you didn't get karma.
Did you ever send the MUD account an email?

What if you played for over a year but havent gotten karma in almost a year?

[Larrath]

Karma is -not- a measure of time played in the game.  I've seen and helped a newbie get into Arm.  If I were a staff, I'd have given him his first point of karma on his first PC.  I've seen pretty experienced players that I'd like to strip some guild options away from.

With this said, if you have a concern about your karma, email the MUD account and ask that they check that you have as much karma as you should have.


In fact, I'll make this even a little broader - if you have a concern about Arm, I don't see why one shouldn't email the MUD account and ask.  After all, the MUD account is more than just an archive of all the other emails sent to the clans.  As long as your emails are polite, detailed and to the point (I doubt a twenty-page email about the artwork in the Bard's Barrel would be perfectly appreciated, for example), I don't see why anyone should be afraid to send them.

I've sent a small handful of non-request emails to the MUD account, and I've never regretted having sent them.  I don't see why this should be different with anyone else - just be polite, brief where briefness is due, and spellcheck.

[Halaster]

I say...

Don't fix it if it ain't broke.