Irony?

[Rhyden]

Does anybody else find this ironic? The high, god-like lords of both large cities have super-human powers and magical abilities yet all those wielding similar powers (magickers of course) are frowned upon and even illegal and punished with death just for their sole similar-to-highlord characteristic? Doesn't this strike anybody else as pretty thick irony?

Ex: I was there during the mantis-invasion, and it seems to me that our lord used some pretty weirdo magical powers to fend off the other sorcerer-leader type guy. And as they fought in the skies with their magical bolts of who-knows-what, we were all on the ground giving them mental support to give them more energy to summon more superficial power while still, we dread, hate, loathe and even extermininate magickers who are similar to our gods???!!! What??? C'mon, this has to be ironic to more than just me.

-Expand the topic :!:


[Edited for typos]

[Marauder Moe]

Quiet you idtiot!  Talk like that is going to get us killed!  How dare you compare our great Highlord with a foul defiler?  Mods, lock this thread for blasphemy!  (I'm kidding of course, but hopefully you get my point)

[Angela Christine]

Of course the Kings promote mage-hate, who else has the power to challenge them?  Any sorcerer is a potential sorcerer-king.  Best to kill them off before they become powerful enough to be a personal threat.

AC

[Rhyden]

Of course the Kings promote mage-hate, who else has the power to challenge them?  Any sorcerer is a potential sorcerer-king.  Best to kill them off before they become powerful enough to be a personal threat.

AC

Ahh, I'm getting the scheme of things now. It never really occured to me we're living in a fascist political society with primary and secondary dictators running the cities. Well, not conciously.

[Bestatte]

It's not a fascist society. It's a dictatorship. And the dictator is capable of killing you, in slow, excruciating agony, merely by whispering in your direction.

[Gaare]

I guess goverment styles of both cities are close to Theocracy. The god itself is leading the cities and citizens are expected to believe it. Also an elite religion group called templars are at the highest rank of the hierarchy as both law and religion enforcers.

There is really an irony about Sorcerer-Kings and other defilers... but IMO it's more funny that even history has similiar examples... At least in ARM citizens know there are supernatural things. In many religion, magical activities are consired as sins but prophets' supernatural powers are considered as miracles.   Hehe...

[Koala]

In many religion, magical activities are consired as sins but prophets' supernatural powers are considered as miracles.   Hehe...

They may look similar to your eyes, but it doesn't mean that they are same, even close (IMHO). I think one needs more information and consideration before reaching to such a conclusion.

[Anonymous]

They may look similar to your eyes, but it doesn't mean that they are same, even close (IMHO). I think one needs more information and consideration before reaching to such a conclusion.

I'd like to point out this quote as an example of the mindset of the citizens of either city-state: the theory is deeply entrenched in their minds through generations.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[Rhyden]

It's not a fascist society. It's a dictatorship. And the dictator is capable of killing you, in slow, excruciating agony, merely by whispering in your direction.

Right, I always get the two mixed up.  :wink:

[WarriorPoet]

I've always wanted the Sorcerer King's, their awesome power, and their absolute dedication to keeping that power at all costs, to play a greater part in the everyday life of my PC's. Now, we have morning devotions, mebbe the occasional Templar, and the rare fanatic PC. Aside from the occasional 'Tek's Balls!' I've gone RL weeks without hearing a SK referenced in conversation, or at all.

This always seemed strange to me. The SK's are the supreme dictators, the God-Kings of the world. They're the reason the wretched masses are able to thrive. They keep you fed, they keep you safe, and they let you live. All of this in return for... what? It seems like the people in the CityStates are kind of apathetic, to me. Tek/Muk is there, but they don't seem to be as much of a constant in everyday life as it seems to me they would be, in their respective cities. Most PC's just see them as a place to live, from the attitudes I've seen, when it should be so much more.

Remember, these aren't vague ideas of some 'god' as we have in real life, these are the guys who have stayed on top of the world for a thousand years, and their presence isn't just an idea, it is there for you to awe and mebbe to scorch you where you stand. The powers of the Templarate, which I have seen shunned or laughed away, are in-your-face reminders that these are only minor henchmen wielding a thousandth part of what the Man himself can bust out.

I would  LOVE more pro-GodKing propaganda, . Street criers praising the Highlord/SunKing, public prayer aside from devotion, etc etc. More random freak-outs on people who get above themselves, more 'witch burnings' against the odd person who gets saddled with rumors, etc etc. It just seems like they would have more of a presence.

*shrugs* Rambling.

[RunningMountain]

Gotta agree with you WarriorPoet. I'd love to see the Sorcerer-Kings play a more important role then just being these "omnipotent" virtual things that you never see/hear about.  I mean only the templars seem to care much about the King. And the King is that..the King of Allanak, and not just a king a Sorcerer-King, yet you never see them, never hear of them, and the amount of plots that could come about from them is endless yet you never have them..  WHY?

-RM

[Cuusardo]

I thought that was called hypocrisy, not irony.

[SanityAssassin]

I thought that was called hypocrisy, not irony.

Yep.  Irony is something different.

The Sorceror-Kings having a more active, 'Big Brother' type role could be interesting.  But really, do the people need to be reminded of the Sorceror Kings' power?  

It's not like we're dealing with real-life dictators who can be overthrown by the masses.  Bombarding the people with propaganda may not be appropriate or necessary- the people are fully aware of how impotent they are in the face of the magnificent and terrible Sorceror Kings!

I prefer the Sorceror-Kings mysterious and distant.  I imagine most sane people don't want to attract their attention.

[WarriorPoet]

I think that the masses do need to be reminded of that terrible power that these guys possess. Propaganda and the facade of peace and happiness aside, the cities are rife with corruption and quarrelling. A large chunk of the population is armed and angry, outnumbering the militia a hundredfold, all the while being ground beneath the bootheel of the Templarate. Bad odds for the forces of the cities, but the odds mean nothing against the wrath of an angry Sorcerer King.

As you said, they aren't going to rise up and rebel, but why? Because the SK's and their minions have terrorized the population into submission. This seems, to me, that I would proclaim my love for that terrible, faceless spectre of a Highlord, often, loud and proud, for all to hear. Even dissenters would probably rather give a thumbs up for the Highlord/Sunking, than to have a templar saw that thumb off and kill you with it for disloyalty.

I would just like to see a little more presence in the everyday life of those of us who spend every day in the city. That crazy sorcerer king is running shit, and everyone knows it, yet rarely show their submission, aside from a bow to a noble or a dip of the head to the dragon...

More rambling...

[Agent_137]

Irony is when the outcome is different than what was expected.

This qualifies as irony, because one could expect that if some one bore traits similar to their god, those traits would be praised.

Instead, those with those traits are ruthlessly enslaved and/or destroyed.

And it's -also- hypocrisy. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[Angela Christine]

I think that the masses do need to be reminded of that terrible power that these guys possess. Propaganda and the facade of peace and happiness aside, the cities are rife with corruption and quarrelling. A large chunk of the population is armed and angry, outnumbering the militia a hundredfold, all the while being ground beneath the bootheel of the Templarate. Bad odds for the forces of the cities, but the odds mean nothing against the wrath of an angry Sorcerer King.

Indeed.  Every now and then there is a big event that illuminates the Great Ones powers, like wiping out a besieging army or burying a rival city-state, but those are rare.  People need constant reminding that there is an unstoppable force at the center of their civilization.  That would quash rebellion, and fleeing the cities simply isn't possible for most people (plus, as far as they know, the wilderness is filled with terrible things) so the state runs smoothly.  I like the idea of criers, street preachers, and bards reminding people about the terrible greatness of their own King, and the legion of horrors waiting outside the gates that are only held in check by the awesome power of that king.  

I can see a combination begger-street preacher being a resonable occupation, particularily for people injured in the service of the King or nobility.  They are out there spreading the good word so the agents of the law will probably not hassle them too much, and could discourage random thugs from beating on them too.  Beating up someone who is saying how great the government is could be seen as anti-goverment and a sign of a traitorous heart.

Adding a few pro-government songs to the repitiore of NPCs bards would be good too.  Unfortunately I don't write songs.

Irony is when the outcome is different than what was expected.

This qualifies as irony, because one could expect that if some one bore traits similar to their god, those traits would be praised.

I'm not sure about that.  Are people in our world expressing praise when they accuse someone of "playing god"?  Taking on divine traits and authority when you are not divine can easily be seen as perversion and blasphemy.  Is the public thrilled when they hear that scientists have crossed jelly-fish DNA into mice and made glow-in-the-dark mice?  (Ok, that was sort of cool, except that they didn't glow in the dark, they glow in darklight).  How about cute miniture goats that contain some spider DNA so that they produce spider-silk protiens in their milk?  Icky!  Most people I know are suspicious of new, god-like scientific discoveries.  When organ transplants were new many people were very uncomfortable with the technology, especially if they didn't know anyone who needed a new organ, because putting a dead guy's heart in a living guy and making it live is . . . unnatural.  Some of the ideas of what *might* happen when all these genetically modified crops get out of controled areas and start cross-breeding in the wild are positively apocolyptic.  

On a more practical level, people know that thier god-king and the false ones sometimes go to war, and that when powerful sorcerers war it generally isn't good for the health of innocent bystanders.  Mages, particularily enemy mages, don't just want to practice their foul arts in peace.  No, they want to destroy your homes, enslave your people and eat your children.  


Angela Christine

[Spoon]

Christians 300 years ago:

"Wow, that priest healed the sick! It's the miraculous work of God!"

"Hey, that woman healed the sick, it's the evil magic of Satan!"

Think about it rather than nit-pick it apart because of historical inaccuracy.

[Anonymous]

Irony is when the outcome is different than what was expected.

This qualifies as irony, because one could expect that if some one bore traits similar to their god, those traits would be praised.

Instead, those with those traits are ruthlessly enslaved and/or destroyed.

It's not ironic from the perspective of the IC policy makers.  They are magick users and they want all other magick users either killed or at the very least kept under control.

[Rhyden]

I thought that was called hypocrisy, not irony.

Well, yes, now that the thread's been turned into a completely new topic, it is hypocrisy. I, on the other hand was merely stating the irony which has now been brought to a more broad, interesting and useful topic.

[Agent_137]

Irony is when the outcome is different than what was expected.

This qualifies as irony, because one could expect that if some one bore traits similar to their god, those traits would be praised.

Instead, those with those traits are ruthlessly enslaved and/or destroyed.

It's not ironic from the perspective of the IC policy makers.  They are magick users and they want all other magick users either killed or at the very least kept under control.

It's not ironic to them because they're hypocrites, but it's ironic to everyone else that realizes the true state of affairs. So it's called DRAMATIC irony.

So can we just move on? Please? Christ.

[Spoon]

Yeah, moving on...

The government doesn't let us over here run around with guns. However, I think they have a few themselves.

[Agent_137]

Yea spoon. that sucks. Kind of like over here.

The military has assault weapons, but they don't let us have any!!!

-pouts-

Well, we can have them, we just can't buy them. Or bring them in the country.

But I think that ban is about to drop!

Assault rifles for everybody! YAY. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

[Anonymous]

It's not ironic to them because they're hypocrites, but it's ironic to everyone else that realizes the true state of affairs. So it's called DRAMATIC irony.

The laws or the persepective of those who realize the 'true state of affairs' when they see someone who is born a magicker that is treated poorly based on laws put in place by another magicker?

The laws aren't ironic, period.  No different than a ruler who outlaws gun ownership by citizens so that only his soldiers carry guns.  There's no irony, the laws are doing what they are supposed to do.

So can we just move on? Please? Christ.

I missed the part where someone forced you to reply.

[Spoon]

It's ironic that magickers are treaterd badly in a magicker's state.

While this has not been said word-for-word in the origional post, if you perhapss read between the lines this thread might actually have something to do with the world of Zalanthas, and not just people trying to out-dictionary each other.

[Rhyden]

Yea spoon. that sucks. Kind of like over here.

The military has assault weapons, but they don't let us have any!!!

-pouts-

Well, we can have them, we just can't buy them. Or bring them in the country.

But I think that ban is about to drop!

Assault rifles for everybody! YAY. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

Hmm, more assault weapons used by American citizens? No thanks.  
-Proud to be Canadian. Our only weapons are killer beavers n' beer.