The use of OOC

[Delirium]

If I am in a combat oriented clan that REQUIRES hoods up, I'm still going to order them to call out something that includes their names. Otherwise it's pointless if they are the same relative height/ weight. "Amos needs help!" seems fine to me. If they disagree, then that's fine if they die for what I consider OOC reasons. IC reasons being panic, being too proud, or taking a brutal hit to the neck. Mostly because it's impossible to see who "I" is in "I need help!"

To me there is not a huge gulf between "Amos needs help!" and "I need help!".

A couple of more (IMO) elegant examples:

"On Shatuka!" <-- Shatuka needs rescuing
"Pull back!" <-- flee and regroup in a predetermined direction

[Lizzie]

If I am in a combat oriented clan that REQUIRES hoods up, I'm still going to order them to call out something that includes their names. Otherwise it's pointless if they are the same relative height/ weight. "Amos needs help!" seems fine to me. If they disagree, then that's fine if they die for what I consider OOC reasons. IC reasons being panic, being too proud, or taking a brutal hit to the neck. Mostly because it's impossible to see who "I" is in "I need help!"

To me there is not a huge gulf between "Amos needs help!" and "I need help!".

A couple of more (IMO) elegant examples:

"On Shatuka!" <-- Shatuka needs rescuing
"Pull back!" <-- flee and regroup in a predetermined direction

This is what I've always done in a clan-combat-based situation (with similar wording, obviously not using Sha as the example). However, Desertman is saying that if Shatuka needs rescuing, Shatuka should not be permitted to say "On Shatuka." She should leave it to someone else to say it on her behalf. I disagree with that. I was in Kurac right after Sha's reign, and we were taught *very specifically* to name ourselves out in the field, if and when we needed help. Of course at the time, we were also required to keep our hoods up until an actual attack - and by then, it was sometimes too late to take our hoods down and THEN say "On <whoever.>" and so, calling out your name was always part of the routine. It's basically the text-version of saying "Hey over here!" because as the rescuer, in a text game, I don't know where "here" is. I can't hear someone's voice to recognize it, and I can't necessarily see over a pair of critters duking it out with my sergeant who it is who needs help. But if I hear someone say, "On Shatuka!" I'll know to seek out Shatuka, *regardless of who called for her help* and assist her.

It was IC, it was OOC, it was totally appropriate and expected. I see no reason for that to be different now, years later.

[slvrmoontiger]

Are there any other help files that would be good for new players that are trying to get some command information that can be done while they are playing without need for multitasking?

Sorry if you know this already, but please refer them to the helpers.  There's a big button for live help right on the main page of the website.  Someone is almost always there to answer questions in real time, and it's a way better solution than going over multiple helpfiles and links while in game.

I'm quite aware of the link and have used it myself before. But that will suspend game stuff and a lot of people. I know myself for one would like to be able to actively play the game instead of logging out trying to figure out whats in the game so I can explain it to the helper and switch back and forth. It could get someone who is new more confused than help. I will do this from now on though if that's going to be the recommendation.

It's definitely more fun to jump into a game and improvise and learn how to play along the way. But Armageddon is really hard to play that way. There are no pop-up hints and tips like in modern games. Only the documentation, the help files, and helpers. The best thing you can do besides pointing them to the Helpers is to point them to the Intro section of the website. The Intro section has the Helper button plus a whole guide on everything from creating a character to your first steps one in-game to links to additional documentation. One really cannot play this game effectively without a copious amount of reading beforehand.

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for new accounts that get created and new characters an email be sent stating something along the lines of the reading involved in order to play. Put in the email something like reply back to this email after you have read and provide the links. The post in there that help isn't available while in game and post consequences for OOCing for help that they should have already read about. This should all be crystal clear to them to stop from everything going on. I'm sure a lot of people won't want to play that at all but this all needs a reply before a character is approved for new players. I think it will prevent some new players leaving.

[Twilight]

Ahh, but then you avoid the fun of the half giant rescuing the gith instead of a comrade, simply because you are all just tiny.

It would be nice to be able to "rescue from gith" or "rescue anyone gith" rather than even having to know who you are rescuing.

[BleakOne]

I don't have a problem with calling out your name in combat. "Help! Amos is in trouble!" Is absolutely fine ICly for me. Much better than someone shouting out a drawn out and detailed description of what's going on as a gith is killing them. I mean, if gith were hacking you to bits would you really be able to shout out tactical advice about flanking them?

A shrill scream for help seems much more applicable.

Using your name is just a way to make up for the fact that we don't have the obvious cues of where the shouting is coming from, which would usually be quite obvious to those nearby. I'm sorry if someone calling out for help and using their name ruins your game, but it's entirely acceptable from my point of view and I think those with a problem with it should be the change.

As for the use of OOC to help newbies, it's better to use IC when you can, but sometimes you can't.

[LauraMars]

It's definitely more fun to jump into a game and improvise and learn how to play along the way. But Armageddon is really hard to play that way. There are no pop-up hints and tips like in modern games. Only the documentation, the help files, and helpers. The best thing you can do besides pointing them to the Helpers is to point them to the Intro section of the website. The Intro section has the Helper button plus a whole guide on everything from creating a character to your first steps one in-game to links to additional documentation. One really cannot play this game effectively without a copious amount of reading beforehand.

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for new accounts that get created and new characters an email be sent stating something along the lines of the reading involved in order to play. Put in the email something like reply back to this email after you have read and provide the links. The post in there that help isn't available while in game and post consequences for OOCing for help that they should have already read about. This should all be crystal clear to them to stop from everything going on. I'm sure a lot of people won't want to play that at all but this all needs a reply before a character is approved for new players. I think it will prevent some new players leaving.

This is confusing, but I think you're saying that new players should be required to submit a report to the staff, prior to character approval, that they have read documentation?  If that is indeed what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary.  And help is available in game.  Every helpfile on the website is also coded into the game.  It can be accessed by typing >help

[RogueGunslinger]

I disagree with Desertman that it's bad, but I agree that it is OOC to an extent. We constantly have to circumvent OOC constructs with OOC methods. An Sdesc and a name are all we have to identify someone in the game and both of these are OOC tools we use to establish who is who. I really don't see how it's immersion breaking for someone to yell "HELP AMOS" when every single time you look at the screen you're bombarded with a million OOC constructs which you use to interpret how things are happening ICly.


You know WHY people do it. You're just expecting them to put their character in danger for the sake of your immersion. To which I say: Nope, not going to happen. Maybe you should level up your immersion stat a little bit.

[Maso]

You know WHY people do it. You're just expecting them to put their character in danger for the sake of your immersion. To which I say: Nope, not going to happen. Maybe you should level up your immersion stat a little bit.

+1, and I don't like to agree with RGS.

[Zoltan]

You know WHY people do it. You're just expecting them to put their character in danger for the sake of your immersion. To which I say: Nope, not going to happen. Maybe you should level up your immersion stat a little bit.

+1, and I don't like to agree with RGS.

Yoda sez: "Fear leads to ooc behavior, ooc behavior leads to cheese, cheese leads to twinkery."

I think that's what dman is getting at as well. Your character can often be in danger, it doesn't mean you should act oocly about it all. Never mind tweaking someone's precious immersionz--it's in the rules of the game.

I see the merits to both sides, though in my ideal Arm universe, I definitely lean more toward dman's reasoning. I understand why it's done, and I'm 99% sure I've even participated in that sort of thing in the past. It's something that makes sense on a playability level. Basically, I just leave it all up to the discretion of leader PCs at any given time and roll with it, particularly if my PC at the time happens to a be a good little minion. I don't fault people for going their own way on it, it's just my opinion.

[FantasyWriter]

Ahh, but then you avoid the fun of the half giant rescuing the gith instead of a comrade, simply because you are all just tiny.

It would be nice to be able to "rescue from gith" or "rescue anyone gith" rather than even having to know who you are rescuing.

Something along this line would be very helpful. I always prefer single word commands though, especually for those used in high adrenaline situations. Perhaps:
>engage gith (attempts to rescue target of 1.gith still using skill_rescue)

[slvrmoontiger]

It's definitely more fun to jump into a game and improvise and learn how to play along the way. But Armageddon is really hard to play that way. There are no pop-up hints and tips like in modern games. Only the documentation, the help files, and helpers. The best thing you can do besides pointing them to the Helpers is to point them to the Intro section of the website. The Intro section has the Helper button plus a whole guide on everything from creating a character to your first steps one in-game to links to additional documentation. One really cannot play this game effectively without a copious amount of reading beforehand.

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for new accounts that get created and new characters an email be sent stating something along the lines of the reading involved in order to play. Put in the email something like reply back to this email after you have read and provide the links. The post in there that help isn't available while in game and post consequences for OOCing for help that they should have already read about. This should all be crystal clear to them to stop from everything going on. I'm sure a lot of people won't want to play that at all but this all needs a reply before a character is approved for new players. I think it will prevent some new players leaving.

This is confusing, but I think you're saying that new players should be required to submit a report to the staff, prior to character approval, that they have read documentation?  If that is indeed what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary.  And help is available in game.  Every helpfile on the website is also coded into the game.  It can be accessed by typing >help

Sorry it was confusing. I should not multitask forums and Arm at the same time sometimes.

What I am saying is it should be clearly defined that OOC requests for basic help (that should be read before playing) are not aloud. Players should be told to submit a Player Complaint of any new players doing this, or just ignore them.

This was just in response to someone saying that The basic information should be read prior to playing. I fully agree with this. Heck I re-read through a lot of documentation when I came back from a 5 year absence just to re-familiarize myself. Lots of players think they can just jump in and start playing especially if they've played other MUDs before. Arm is not just another MUD though and that's what makes it the BEST MUD there is.

[LauraMars]

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for new accounts that get created and new characters an email be sent stating something along the lines of the reading involved in order to play. Put in the email something like reply back to this email after you have read and provide the links. The post in there that help isn't available while in game and post consequences for OOCing for help that they should have already read about. This should all be crystal clear to them to stop from everything going on. I'm sure a lot of people won't want to play that at all but this all needs a reply before a character is approved for new players. I think it will prevent some new players leaving.

This is confusing, but I think you're saying that new players should be required to submit a report to the staff, prior to character approval, that they have read documentation?  If that is indeed what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary.  And help is available in game.  Every helpfile on the website is also coded into the game.  It can be accessed by typing >help

Sorry it was confusing. I should not multitask forums and Arm at the same time sometimes.

What I am saying is it should be clearly defined that OOC requests for basic help (that should be read before playing) are not aloud. Players should be told to submit a Player Complaint of any new players doing this, or just ignore them.

This was just in response to someone saying that The basic information should be read prior to playing. I fully agree with this. Heck I re-read through a lot of documentation when I came back from a 5 year absence just to re-familiarize myself. Lots of players think they can just jump in and start playing especially if they've played other MUDs before. Arm is not just another MUD though and that's what makes it the BEST MUD there is.

Oh, I see.  Well, I'm afraid I still don't agree with this.  You can read a LOT before starting the game and still not understand basic commands or a lot of stuff about the world until you play for awhile.  If the attitude and general expectation was that we must complain about all new players asking for help in the game, I think this would really contribute negatively to our playerbase, as well as the MUD's overall reputation.

[Maso]

Yeah, the general consensus on this in the past has just been to use some sense. The occasional OOC question is not the end of the world. You can get a feel for how much OOC is ok just by playing the game - very little. So long as you always feel a little bit awkward and apologetically (inwardly) from using OOC, you'll probably be fine just using your own judgement. A 'complaint appropriate scenario' would be obvious...but even then if it's just a one off conversation to put a new player on the right course it's still not the end of the world. Just don't want people getting into habits where they think it's ok to do it all the time.

[slvrmoontiger]

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for new accounts that get created and new characters an email be sent stating something along the lines of the reading involved in order to play. Put in the email something like reply back to this email after you have read and provide the links. The post in there that help isn't available while in game and post consequences for OOCing for help that they should have already read about. This should all be crystal clear to them to stop from everything going on. I'm sure a lot of people won't want to play that at all but this all needs a reply before a character is approved for new players. I think it will prevent some new players leaving.

This is confusing, but I think you're saying that new players should be required to submit a report to the staff, prior to character approval, that they have read documentation?  If that is indeed what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary.  And help is available in game.  Every helpfile on the website is also coded into the game.  It can be accessed by typing >help

Sorry it was confusing. I should not multitask forums and Arm at the same time sometimes.

What I am saying is it should be clearly defined that OOC requests for basic help (that should be read before playing) are not aloud. Players should be told to submit a Player Complaint of any new players doing this, or just ignore them.

This was just in response to someone saying that The basic information should be read prior to playing. I fully agree with this. Heck I re-read through a lot of documentation when I came back from a 5 year absence just to re-familiarize myself. Lots of players think they can just jump in and start playing especially if they've played other MUDs before. Arm is not just another MUD though and that's what makes it the BEST MUD there is.

Oh, I see.  Well, I'm afraid I still don't agree with this.  You can read a LOT before starting the game and still not understand basic commands or a lot of stuff about the world until you play for awhile.  If the attitude and general expectation was that we must complain about all new players asking for help in the game, I think this would really contribute negatively to our playerbase, as well as the MUD's overall reputation.

I still think you misunderstood my intentions on this statement. Several posts back someone stated that basic commands should already be known before they enter the world. I was just commenting and in a sarcastic way I should state on how crazy that statement was. I will continue to keep helping new players as I have in the past. I just know that if the OOC something that can be answered IG I'm going to politely OOC saying to asking IG. I'll try sending them to the link and or the helpers chat, but I think that's going to turn off some new players.

[Barzalene]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but on the new player front, I think you guys may be over thinking this.

If you can help them with a quick ooc aside, do it. If there are people around, do it in such a way it doesn't distract other people.

If it becomes a whole to do, send them to a helper for help outside the game.

Do not use the game as a chat room.
Do not be an asshole to new players and leave them frustrated and floundering.

I think you all knew this already, but you just like to debate.

[Desertman]

However, Desertman is saying...

Except that isn't what I'm saying at all, in any way.

I'm saying that shouting your own name repeatedly and nothing else in the middle of combat is my issue.

I outlined it in an exact example...

[Maso]

If you can help them with a quick ooc aside, do it. If there are people around, do it in such a way it doesn't distract other people.

If it becomes a whole to do, send them to a helper for help outside the game.

Do not use the game as a chat room.

Do not be an asshole to new players and leave them frustrated and floundering.

Seems like a good set of guidelines.

[Desertman]

As an aside that is kind of funny.

I just realized last night I played a character that was known for shouting his own name in combat repeatedly, and here I am bitching about it.

That is the only time I have seen it done where it was actually IC, made sense in the game world, and not for a coded benefit.

[Qzzrbl]

As an aside that is kind of funny.

I just realized last night I played a character that was known for shouting his own name in combat repeatedly, and here I am bitching about it.

That is the only time I have seen it done where it was actually IC, made sense in the game world, and not for a coded benefit.

If I had a name like that, I'd shout it out with regularity as well.

[LauraMars]

As an aside that is kind of funny.

I just realized last night I played a character that was known for shouting his own name in combat repeatedly, and here I am bitching about it.

That is the only time I have seen it done where it was actually IC, made sense in the game world, and not for a coded benefit.

^ did you play a half giant named Hodor?

[Desertman]

As an aside that is kind of funny.

I just realized last night I played a character that was known for shouting his own name in combat repeatedly, and here I am bitching about it.

That is the only time I have seen it done where it was actually IC, made sense in the game world, and not for a coded benefit.

^ did you play a half giant named Hodor?

No, he wasn't mentally retarded. He did it because he had serious ego issues and truly believed he was so feared that his name would strike terror into any who faced him.

[Adhira]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but on the new player front, I think you guys may be over thinking this.

If you can help them with a quick ooc aside, do it. If there are people around, do it in such a way it doesn't distract other people.

If it becomes a whole to do, send them to a helper for help outside the game.

Do not use the game as a chat room.
Do not be an asshole to new players and leave them frustrated and floundering.

I think you all knew this already, but you just like to debate.

Yes. This.

This is exactly right.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but on the new player front, I think you guys may be over thinking this.

If you can help them with a quick ooc aside, do it. If there are people around, do it in such a way it doesn't distract other people.

If it becomes a whole to do, send them to a helper for help outside the game.

Do not use the game as a chat room.
Do not be an asshole to new players and leave them frustrated and floundering.

I think you all knew this already, but you just like to debate.

Yes. This.

This is exactly right.

+1

I just wanted to restate that when I rezzed this thread this isn't what I was talking about.  I never have a problem with helping someone with one command to keep things moving.

[Zoan]

Though I'm pretty roleplayz, at the end of the day this is a MUD, and that means (under certain conditions) mechanics trump RP.

Mechanics trumping RP: 300 lines are scrolling per second because the fire-kanks are on your ass. You don't have the time to artfully word out with a bracket-emote how deep in the shit you are right now to your comrades because failing to let them know will have very real, not very responsible repercussions to events happening.

[Haroro26]

thank you