The use of OOC

[slvrmoontiger]

I hope I don't come off as too harsh on some new players. Sometimes they are asking questions OOC that can be asked ICly. When this happens I try to politely tell them OOC that the question can be asked ICly please do so and then I wait for them to ask the question ICly. I think I've gotten pretty good at this. If I know or realize someone is a new player I give them several help files OOC that they can read that should give them the general basics. Like try reading help faq, help emote, help tell and then any of the additional help files they refer to. I believe this is enough to get them started with the basics. All this can be done while they are playing so I'd rather do that than refer them to a URL that they have to multitask with. Are there any other help files that would be good for new players that are trying to get some command information that can be done while they are playing without need for multitasking?

[Harmless]

+1 to stylish OOC communication. I approve of everything desertman is outlining above.

However, in direct contrast, if doing something like Desertman makes an example of here is difficult for you to type in the middle of combat, then I am okay with you making aliases or macros to send the request out immediately. I won't mind the repetition, either, I promise.

[Desertman]

+1 to stylish OOC communication. I approve of everything desertman is outlining above.

However, in direct contrast, if doing something like Desertman makes an example of here is difficult for you to type in the middle of combat, then I am okay with you making aliases or macros to send the request out immediately. I won't mind the repetition, either, I promise.

Same here, I don't care if they have a macro for when they hit 30hp that shouts, "I'm gettin' my ass kicked! Someone help me here!".

I don't care if they use that exact line all of the time.

Just stop shouting your name repeatedly in an OOC manner that makes no IC sense because you don't want your toon to die. It just doesn't belong in Armageddon. Other games, a perfect fit. Not Armageddon.

[Maso]

I have not seen some large increase in OOC though.

[Potaje]

I don't agree here with Desertman on this point of it being ooc to yell out ones own name in combat when hurt.

It does not make sense to yell out some complicated long issuance of directions when your being struck down, in grave danger or otherwise life threatened and time and directness is paramount.

But that is not really my point, Yelling out your pc'a name, teaching others to do this is not ooc, its every bit of Ic. OOC would be something more along the lines: Amos is at 30 hp, help.

There is no need to try an dissuade new players into thinking that such a thing is ooc when its really just your view and opinion that its ooc and not a fact of being ooc.

I will continue to suggest they use their names in large groups as long as it is effective in keeping them alive.

The use of code words are fine but not more or less different than simply calling out ones name when in need of help.


Also the difference is that in large groups:
1.people have hoods up
2. when they don't have hoods up, you then have to seek out the identifiers in their description which wastes time, the difference of (I'm in trouble) and (Amos, is in trouble.) To allow those not familiar and perhaps those that might be to instantly know where along the line to move to assist.

Otherwise you could consider it like having to run down the line looking over everyone saying or looking over every one in wonder of Who is 'I' that needed help. Being to late.

[Desertman]

I don't agree here with Desertman on this point of it being ooc to yell out ones own name in combat when hurt.

It does not make sense to yell out some complicated long issuance of directions when your being struck down, in grave danger or otherwise life threatened and time and directness is paramount.

But that is not really my point, Yelling out your pc'a name, teaching others to do this is not ooc, its every bit of Ic. OOC would be something more along the lines: Amos is at 30 hp, help.

There is no need to try an dissuade new players into thinking that such a thing is ooc when its really just your view and opinion that its ooc and not a fact of being ooc.

I will continue to suggest they use their names in large groups as long as it is effective in keeping them alive.

The use of code words are fine but not more or less different than simply calling out ones name when in need of help.


Also the difference is that in large groups:
1.people have hoods up
2. when they don't have hoods up, you then have to seek out the identifiers in their description which wastes time, the difference of (I'm in trouble) and (Amos, is in trouble.) To allow those not familiar and perhaps those that might be to instantly know where along the line to move to assist.

Otherwise you could consider it like having to run down the line looking over everyone saying or looking over every one in wonder of Who is 'I' that needed help. Being to late.

You are yelling out your own name so that OOC'ly the person behind the keyboard of the healer/helper knows OOC'ly who they should rescue/heal.

I understand you are doing it so that you won't die and that your underlings won't die.

I sympathize with why you are doing it.

Not wanting to die isn't a reason to do something that is blatantly for OOC convenience and not IC'ly immersive/OOC'ly jarring. I didn't want to die, isn't a good excuse to go OOC. Make no mistake, you are doing something that is OOC, even if you aren't using the OOC command.  

I would rather see my own characters die before I start shouting out my own name in combat repeatedly so that OOC'ly someone knows to heal or rescue me from across the chaotic battlefield without fail.

Have you ever considered that if there are so many people involved in a fight that the screen is scrolling so fast that you can't decide who is who and who is where, that it might actually make IC sense for it to be that crazy?

Battle would be chaotic. With that many people engaged in furious melee, you aren't going to run across a battlefield to save someone who is shouting their name repeatedly.

Did you see Braveheart? You are much more concerned with the person you are fighting/the groups of people who are shoulder to shoulder around you that might hamstring you at any moment etc...

Not being able to respond to what is happening to everyone all over the battlefield without fail just because they are shouting their name/keyword is not only OOC'ly jarring, but IC'ly, it also doesn't make any sense if there are that many people in a fight to begin with.

The super fast screen scroll and confusion is actually pretty IC in my opinion and helps to more realistically reflect how hard it WOULD be to jump to someone's aid in the middle of a battle.

I didn't even see this problem ten years ago in Armageddon. We had some pretty large battles that I can remember. I was a leader in one of them at the time when Allanak was attacked.

This idea/concept didn't even exist in Armageddon until people got accustom to doing this in other online graphical games in recent years.

[Rhyden]

As always, I agree with Dman. Seems like an awkward cheap way of OOCly getting a heal. If you really need to get healed, lower your hood, separate yourself from combat, yell "Medic" or all three. Yelling your name seems silly imo.

[Desertman]

As always, I agree with Dman. Seems like an awkward cheap way of OOCly getting a heal. If you really need to get healed, lower your hood, separate yourself from combat, yell "Medic" or all three. Yelling your name seems silly imo.

But, but, you would be able to instantly jump to someone no matter where they are on a battlefield in the middle of a war because they are shouting their name repeatedly Rhyden. You would be able to do it with no confusion at all, to perfection. You must understand that shouting your name suddenly clears a battlefield of confusion. This is a fact known to babes in swaddling clothes. This is why warriors throughout history have been taught to shout their name repeatedly during battle. Just look it up. You can find multiple examples of this. It allowed thier comrades to instantly find them in a huge melee and made perfect sense.

You don't understand. That is how battle was. It isn't silly or an OOC concept that came about only in recent years due to it being common place to do this sort of thing in a non-RP environment at all.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I'm not really talking about noobs asking questions or trying to save your character during combat spam.  I agree there has not been an increase in ooc, but I have seen ooc communication by high karma players and leaders that was not only unnecessary, but also jarring.   People oocing play times in front of a large group, but speaking to an individual, talking about taking their dog to the vet and things of that nature, and telling ooc jokes.   I didn't file a player complaint because its wasn't and isn't someone my character normally sees and so maybe it was an isolated incident, but it didn't seem that way.  To me it seemed like an entire clan was over using ooc.  A little bit is fine sure, but it seemed excessive.  If I see it again I'll probably put in a pc.  

IMO OOC I have to go is inappropriate.  There are ic ways of dealing with it.  say (yawning) I'm tired, gonna get some rest.    say (sighing) Ugh, got gate duty for the rest of the week.  Not that I would put in a player complaint for this.  I understand sometimes you are in a hurry.  Its fine.  Sometimes there isn't a good way to say it icly especially if the other player questions you on it.

I don't see how its ooc to yell that you need help in combat.  I'll tell you whats ooc is worrying about how the code distributes water and wrecking rp for ooc reasons over a few virtual drinks.  Where Ic it doesn't make any sense.    I've experienced this on two occasions, one with the Byn and one with the AOD.  ITs kinda code abuse imo to do this let alone punish people ic for ooc things (NOT ME BTW).   Its not the end of the world I understand, but its unnecessary and takes away from the game.  If you drink from the cistern using an emote that you are using a virtual cup then you aren't drinking out of the cistern or keg or whatever.  You are using a cup.  

[Potaje]

I'm saying that I personally find that when it is not simply a matter of being able to stamp it oocly, simply because you see it that way. The game is not perfect. You can not set up actual battle lines and formations. You can not define where someone is on the battlefield.

So just about all thing, concerning battle and protection and strategy, could be stamped ooc.

I think the inclusion of a soldiers name is fine and just as icly as not. If one could protect the right flank or left flank and do so simply by calling out that command, then I might agree more.

But the whole dogma of this aspect being ooc is ridiculous to me.

If you want, once a name is called have others repeat, "Pull back sos and sos!" then you can spend your time emoting cutting your way towards them.

You might want to let your pc die or others around you, and that's fine, but then once your gone, I sure as drov would be teaching them different, because we may have to die at some point in game, but it does not have to be from being obtuse or inane over something as small as having a hang up on calling out your own name when in danger.

Shout "Help me, Potaje" Alerts all around that Potaje is the one in need, and I see no problem of ooc in that.

[Barzalene]

Desertman is right. And he's wrong!
In real life if a guy is screaming off to your left you have some sensory input to locate him not available in code. But this may be offset by the lack of real distance to close to get to the guy who is down.

[KankWhisperer]

And all through out history you couldn't tell who was next to you or not even though you knew them for years because they had a hood up and now you don't recognize them anymore. Nearly ALL ARM battles, your PC group is relatively small and close together. Pretending you are crossing a gigantic battlefield to rescue is disingenuous as an argument. And you are NOT noticing them get killed already, stimulating battle chaos. That's why they are calling for aid in the first place.

[Desertman]

They are using an OOC work around for a poorly performing construct.

I get why they are doing it.

It is still an OOC work around and still makes no IC sense, no matter the reasoning.

It is being done because OOC'ly, due to the game format, "It is hard to tell who is who in a battle."

I get that. We don't do OOC things in Armageddon. Even if it means we die.

[Potaje]

You say it is, I say its not.

We differ in opinion on the matter and are at an impasse. It's also a matter I don't feel deserves admonishment no matter what side of the argument you stand on.

And I do not believe it falls under the OOC restrictions. The day Staff says it does is the day I nod and stand aside on the point. 

[Desertman]

You say it is, I say its not.

We differ in opinion on the matter and are at an impasse. It's also a matter I don't feel deserves admonishment no matter what side of the argument you stand on.

And I do not believe it falls under the OOC restrictions. The day Staff says it does is the day I nod and stand aside on the point.  

I am of the opinion that the staff has already said you shouldn't do blatantly OOC things in game.

So I am of the opinion you should nod and stand aside.

The only reason this exists, is because OOC'ly, the game format is hard to follow in group battles.

There is no IC reason to do this. IC'ly, it is silly. It makes perfect OOC sense to do it, because the only reason you are doing it is to make up for the game platform limitations, that you outlined above as your reason for doing it.

Even if the OOC reason for doing something is the game limitations themselves, such as in this case, you still can't do OOC things in game and pretend they are IC.

The only reason we see this is because of an OOC issue with the game platform making group battles hard to follow. There is no IC reason.

[KankWhisperer]

You say it is, I say its not.

We differ in opinion on the matter and are at an impasse. It's also a matter I don't feel deserves admonishment no matter what side of the argument you stand on.

And I do not believe it falls under the OOC restrictions. The day Staff says it does is the day I nod and stand aside on the point. 

Agreed.

[Nyr]

The scale

       0---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------10
   never uses OOC                                                                                                                                                                                             chats with buddy over the Way using OOC
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           repeatedly uses OOC when it is unnecessary
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


Maybe the OOCish stuff people yell out during combat spam is annoying, but I'd cut the players a bit of slack and try to (if I am in the position to do so) show them a more IC way to reflect that they are in need of assistance.  If I'm not in that position, I can ask staff to help.  Combat spam and newbies asking questions...there might be better ways to deal with the former and we can look into those.  The latter will always happen.

I've seen the following uses of OOC as a chat room:

oocing to display amusement at a situation  -- don't
oocing to make a joke about a situation -- don't
oocing about...celebrity gossip -- why?
oocing about pets -- no
oocing about how they are oocing too much  -- you don't say!
oocing habitually not just about the need to leave (i.e., quit out) but giving lots of detail -- borderline.  Better to take the tack of "if I am going to break someone's immersion by using OOC to let them know I have to go, I had best err on the side of brevity" than "if I'm going to break someone's immersion by using OOC, I'm already breaking their immersion, so let me just throw caution to the wind and load up the command window!"

That's just from the reboot on Monday morning until this week.  We've already handed out warnings in most of the above cases (and I haven't seen some of these examples since the warning), but it's here to serve as an example of what is too much, and what to cut back on.

[LauraMars]

Are there any other help files that would be good for new players that are trying to get some command information that can be done while they are playing without need for multitasking?

Sorry if you know this already, but please refer them to the helpers.  There's a big button for live help right on the main page of the website.  Someone is almost always there to answer questions in real time, and it's a way better solution than going over multiple helpfiles and links while in game.

[Desertman]

Maybe the OOCish stuff people yell out during combat spam is annoying, but I'd cut the players a bit of slack and try to (if I am in the position to do so) show them a more IC way to reflect that they are in need of assistance.  If I'm not in that position, I can ask staff to help.  Combat spam and newbies asking questions...there might be better ways to deal with the former and we can look into those.  The latter will always happen.

This is all I am asking. Instead of teaching them to do it. Teach them not to do it. Because they shouldn't be doing it.

Thank Jeebus. I rest my case and I can leave this thread alone now.  

[Potaje]

Maybe the OOCish stuff people yell out during combat spam is annoying, but I'd cut the players a bit of slack and try to (if I am in the position to do so) show them a more IC way to reflect that they are in need of assistance.  If I'm not in that position, I can ask staff to help.  Combat spam and newbies asking questions...there might be better ways to deal with the former and we can look into those.  The latter will always happen.

This is all I am asking. Instead of teaching them to do it. Teach them not to do it. Because they shouldn't be doing it.

Thank Jeebus. I rest my case and I can leave this thread alone now.  

Funny I don't see where it says in Nyr's comment that calling out ones name to draw attention to the person in need is ooc. He only stats that oocish stuff might be annoying.

But in his list of ooc things does not list icly calling out for help as an ooc construct.

I too rest my case.

[KankWhisperer]

If I am in a combat oriented clan that REQUIRES hoods up, I'm still going to order them to call out something that includes their names. Otherwise it's pointless if they are the same relative height/ weight. "Amos needs help!" seems fine to me. If they disagree, then that's fine if they die for what I consider OOC reasons. IC reasons being panic, being too proud, or taking a brutal hit to the neck. Mostly because it's impossible to see who "I" is in "I need help!"

To me there is not a huge gulf between "Amos needs help!" and "I need help!".

[slvrmoontiger]

Are there any other help files that would be good for new players that are trying to get some command information that can be done while they are playing without need for multitasking?

Sorry if you know this already, but please refer them to the helpers.  There's a big button for live help right on the main page of the website.  Someone is almost always there to answer questions in real time, and it's a way better solution than going over multiple helpfiles and links while in game.

I'm quite aware of the link and have used it myself before. But that will suspend game stuff and a lot of people. I know myself for one would like to be able to actively play the game instead of logging out trying to figure out whats in the game so I can explain it to the helper and switch back and forth. It could get someone who is new more confused than help. I will do this from now on though if that's going to be the recommendation.

[Desertman]

Maybe the OOCish stuff people yell out during combat spam is annoying, but I'd cut the players a bit of slack and try to (if I am in the position to do so) show them a more IC way to reflect that they are in need of assistance.  If I'm not in that position, I can ask staff to help.  Combat spam and newbies asking questions...there might be better ways to deal with the former and we can look into those.  The latter will always happen.

This is all I am asking. Instead of teaching them to do it. Teach them not to do it. Because they shouldn't be doing it.

Thank Jeebus. I rest my case and I can leave this thread alone now.  

Funny I don't see where it says in Nyr's comment that calling out ones name to draw attention to the person in need is ooc. He only stats that oocish stuff might be annoying.

That is the only thing referenced in regards to combat and ooc'ish stuff in the entire thread.

That is obviously what he is talking about.

Now you are just trolling, and/or unable to admit when you are wrong.

[KankWhisperer]

Give some of these superior IC examples.

[Cutthroat]

Are there any other help files that would be good for new players that are trying to get some command information that can be done while they are playing without need for multitasking?

Sorry if you know this already, but please refer them to the helpers.  There's a big button for live help right on the main page of the website.  Someone is almost always there to answer questions in real time, and it's a way better solution than going over multiple helpfiles and links while in game.

I'm quite aware of the link and have used it myself before. But that will suspend game stuff and a lot of people. I know myself for one would like to be able to actively play the game instead of logging out trying to figure out whats in the game so I can explain it to the helper and switch back and forth. It could get someone who is new more confused than help. I will do this from now on though if that's going to be the recommendation.

It's definitely more fun to jump into a game and improvise and learn how to play along the way. But Armageddon is really hard to play that way. There are no pop-up hints and tips like in modern games. Only the documentation, the help files, and helpers. The best thing you can do besides pointing them to the Helpers is to point them to the Intro section of the website. The Intro section has the Helper button plus a whole guide on everything from creating a character to your first steps one in-game to links to additional documentation. One really cannot play this game effectively without a copious amount of reading beforehand.