Newbie Invasion

[Calion]

Jolly, are you sure you understand what we are talking about? This isn't a "channel" in the traditional sense of a chat forum. This will be targeted conversation: A newbie saying Help! and a helper answering that newbie with whatever assistance he feels like giving. No one else besides the helper(s) hear the cry for help; no one else besides the newbie hears the response (except for whatever IMMs might be listening in). It will work precisely like the current "Wish" commands.

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea; I'm not convinced of it myself, though I am intrigued by it. I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Calion

[JollyGreenGiant]

That's somewhat better in that it removes the temptation to chat on an open channel, but it still presents a problem.  The immortals handling of wish requests isn't jarring to them.  They've got a screen full of junk already; one more bit of OOC information makes no difference.  To me, though, when I'm attempting to stay in character, the appearance of one or potentially multiple people sending me requests for assistance in game would be bothersome.  I couldn't say why exactly, but I can handle someone popping up on a messenger service with far more aplomb than I could manage in game.  Something about the separation of the two makes it easier for me to keep them separate in my mind.

And of course, I still don't need the temptation to mischannel...

[Agent_137]

If the helper doesn't have an instant messenger, I highly doubt they want any kind of OOC interaction outside of email.

So why the hell would they be willing to handle it IG of all places?

And if they DO have an instant messenger, just use that. Sure it isn't policed, but big deal. They're helpers. They're trusted.

I would like to see more helpers WITH instant messengers, though. Like, as a helper you should be encouraged to make a helper name on aim, msn, and icq.

[RunningMountain]

I'm not a "helper" but I have a lot of newbies on my aim list that constantly msg me for help and I give it.  All players even new ones want to simply know the same things that you would know playing the game for 5 years.  Not necessarily sensitive ic info, but where the shops are, where to go for armor/weapons/clothing, or to simply get a pick for that matter.  I don't really see that kind of stuff as ic info and I would tell them how to get to the bazaar in allanak.  

As far as all this helper channel talk goes, I would love to see another command much like the change locdesc thing that would send you into an OOC room where you coudl then talk to a player one on one and explain a few things to them.  The command could be enter helproom or something and it could either be one of many rooms where only 2 players could be or 1 room altogether where more then one player could be to speak oocly on something.  I hate going ooc in the middle of a tavern to tell the newbie dwarf to stop tugging on his beard.  Either way I'd hate to see a global channel for it, just another place to go for private ooc communication with someone.

-RM

[Adhira]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[jhunter]

Adhira wrote:
Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[sarahjc]

Adhira wrote:
Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

Well, since three of you think the exact same way, and a lot of others, I am a curious as to why. Is it because of other RP games with OOC channels tend to break down the game?

Also the idea I was thinking was a very limited tool. It would be strictly used by Helpers and New players only and only to answer questions. It would not release the Helper's PC short desc to the Newbie, only account name, and would not allow the helper to have any sort of room hopping ability.  Just simple question answer.  The only other thing I would perhaps like is to give the helper the ablity to send a "help" to anyone in that room.

Example:

Send help The tall, dark and handsome man To talk to a person at table you can use the talk command and then only those at your table and others "listening" will be able to hear the conversation.


Now I think the OOC lines of communication are fine as well. But I like the idea that the staff can monitor a help channel and just the plain idea that people should be offered a helper on Character creation.

[Anonymous]

Because, in general, I can think of few occasions worth breaking immersion to get a command right and in those cases, OOC does the job fine as opposed to some in gaming help messaging system which could see helpers barraged by questions from players who didn't read the rules enough.  Like I would have done when I was new.

Regardless, the problem with new players isn't overcoming the learning curve, it's getting them involved in plots and relationships to make overcoming the learning curve something they want to do.

No amount of hand-holding will make up for the fact that a newbie sitting at a  table alone won't get spoken too and is highly likely to go try to kill something or get lost, lose their character and not come back.

[jhunter]

No amount of hand-holding will make up for the fact that a newbie sitting at a table alone won't get spoken too and is highly likely to go try to kill something or get lost, lose their character and not come back.

Exactly, this relates to what I was saying earlier about trying to get people to be more self-motivated rather than just giving them everything. I'd prefer that people take the time to search the documentation and try to find it for themselves...or strive to find out in game.
This will help prevent the newbie from sitting in a tavern and doing nothing and creates opportunities for interaction with other pcs. Also, in my opinion...if someone doesn 't want to take the time to find out for themselves and read the docs or search in game when possible...then it's no big loss to me if they don't stick around.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[Rhyden]

I've also noticed the steady increase of 'noobs' lately. And I agree that only so much can be explained 'OOCly', but, that's how I learned. I think that it's not a major annoyance however and the way I see it, the more noobs we 'teach', the less work all us more experienced players have to do!

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I see a lot of link-dead players standing there for the entire week, who apparently gave up. Usually they tend to have a -not so important yet rather expensive item- on them, which means they don't know how to earn their sids and they don't know what to buy. So maybe player retention methods can be worked through this.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, I'll go against the grain.

I support the idea of a newbie channel. I see it as capable of being turned on and off by the helpers, so that during RP they do not have to see it, but perhaps during those barfly hours, they can turn it on. The fact is that while we are streamlining the website slowly but surely, there is simply too much stuff for it all to be easily accessable, and when you start telling folks to read the website, that means that they need to remember all that they read, or struggle trying to find it again.

The Helper Page ... certianly a great idea, because we are not always logged into the game, but we can still be around to assist you. But it has not the convienence of a newbie channel. Players coming from other MUDs are almost universally used to a newbie channel, and that will be the first thing they try when they do not understand the game.

Are these folks, because they are perhaps too lazy to search the Helpers' Page, or too in a hurry to play to wait for one to come online, not worthy of playing Armageddon? I think not. Everyone is taught at some point in their life, and that is how they learn, by being taught. Some folks take a while to get the spirit nessessary to fall into the world we play in. A newbie channel would address this problem, and I think rather admirably.

[Dracul]

Could always do a trial basis....and then just rip the newbie channel out if its found in practice to be detrimental.

[aruna]

I don't see a problem with a trial run, but I'm also not a helper... so I guess it's up to the Imms and the helpers to decide whether this is a good idea or not.

Just one thing:

The only other thing I would perhaps like is to give the helper the ablity to send a "help" to anyone in that room.

Example:

Send help The tall, dark and handsome man To talk to a person at table you can use the talk command and then only those at your table and others "listening" will be able to hear the conversation.

I don't think being able to send a help to just anyone is a good idea - only the ones that want the feedback. If helpers can toggle the newbie channel on and off, I think the newbies should be able to do so as well.  If the channel is going to work, it's going to have to work the same both ways.

Just my opinion.

[Steel Leopard]

But what defines a newbie?

I've been playing for almost three weeks, but I still have so many
questions, dispite turning the website inside out looking for clues.
I often spend unnessary amounts of time re-finding things I could
have SWORN read at some point before, just to do a fact-check.

The helpers are great, but some really great roleplayers are also
mildly impatient.  You have to apply for your character, and this
is a great idea to keep the IC integrity of the world together.  But
it's time spent twiddling your thumbs.  If you are a true newbie,
and honestly interesting in learning to play and seeking out info,
you may also not want to spend another couple of days waiting
for an email to replied, possibly only to realize you need to email
someone else about something different.  Some helpers offer
AIM, YIM, and ICQ, but there is no gaurentee that there will be
anyone online for any stretch of time.  Most newbies most likely
won't even have the correct messenger service they need to get
in contact with someone.

A channel would be great.  It could be strictly used for informational
and help purposes, available for everyone to access, with the option
of having it turned off and on at will.  Names and IDs would, of course,
be the out-of-character account name of a player.  The channel, if
implemented, would be TONS better if it was able to be accessed out-
side of the actual game--i.e, through an option in the welcome or log-
in screen.  This would help with those newbies who are intimidated
with the character creation process or want to familiarize themselves
with stuff in the game BEFORE they begin game-play.  Always good,
and certainly saves embarassment.

Admin, helpers, and other such people could possibly be tagged visibly
on the channel to let true newbies know who to take facts or replies
from, and who not to.  People can also be banned from using the channel
(although not from watching it, possibly) for misuse or hassling newbies.

And yes, it would probably take some effort in maintaining, policing,
and monitoring the channel, but nothing good comes without a price.

As stated before, people coming from other games may be used to
having a channel.  The newbie channel will also offer an avenue to
newbies to let them know that the people behind the MUD and the
characters are good-natured people seeking fun, not just sadistic
evil creepy people who like to run around and spank newbies just to
get their 'sids.

[Marauder Moe]

Gah!  No channels!  Keep them away!

If we give newbies an OOC help channel they're going to think its ok to use it  at lot, and possibly by extension the OOC command.  

There's no need to try and change this game to make it more friendly to the average gamer.  People who play this game are NOT the average gamer.  This may sound harsh, but if someone doesn't have the patience to wait for character approvals or the discipline to keep OOC to a minimum then this isn't the right MUD for them.

[Steel Leopard]

I think you are wrong there.

You have no right to exclude people who are or have the ability to
become wonderful, skilled roleplayers just because they are unfamiliar
with MUDing or are having a difficult time adjusting to Armageddon's
difficult learning curve.  I mean, technically, if you are an imm, you
'do', but morally, you don't.  Especially if you want Armageddon to
continue growing.  Especially if you think you are more special than
someone half-way across the world who may actually have a more
vivid and creative imagination than you, simply because you want to
keep the game hard, in an OOC context.

Besides, the faster a newbie learns, the less time more advanced
roleplayers or people used to Arm's environment have to spend dealing
with them.  Unless you're just that asshole kind of type that will never
even touch a newbie because it would soil you.

Besides, we are talking about something that would be a convience
to new players and people seeking information that would normally
be hard to find.  Besides the people who decide to put forth the effort
to stay on the channel and help these people, it should in no way
affect you or your roleplaying experience.  If it pisses you off, turn
it off and never look back.  Simple.

As for letting newbies think that it's okay to make extensive use of the
channel, what's wrong with that?  Will that not be it's purpose?  Sure,
newbies who are talking about what they saw at the mall that day would
certainly need to be reminded about the rules for such a channel,
but what is the crime in asking honest questions?

As for making useage of OOC, enough players are so rediculously ANAL
about it to squash any such behavior out very early.

[Bestatte]

I'll chime in here - by disagreeing with the suggested implementation by Steel Leopard.

First of all, I am all in favor of some in-game way of OOC communication between helpers and "helpees."

I just really - really - think that a global OOC channel is that absolute wrong way to go about it.

I think the last thing any well-meaning person wants, is to be inundated with a barage of newbie requests, comments, criticisms, and quips. A global OOC channel BEGS for that kind of thing, particularly since that's how global OOC channels usually work in other muds, where many new players come from.

I think I can safely say that no one here wants to deal with spending all their time reminding new players to stop yapping on the OOC channel, or asking IC-sensitive things, etc. etc. etc.

It would end up being unused by the vast majority of players, and whatever poor imm gets stuck monitoring the thing would likely suffer from apoplexy after the first hour.

I prefer a much more gentle means - such as some which have already been mentioned in this thread. Assigning a newbie to an available helper, with permission required on both sides, or an encounter with a helper in a room just past the hall of kings, and just before the character drop-off location in the town they pick. In this way, the newbie can have a one-on-one conversation with someone who has proven to the staff that they are trustworthy. In this way, no one who is well-meaning, but just as new and un-knowing as the newbie, can chime in with whatever they *think* they know, thus confusing the issue more. This way, no player who isn't a helper has to be subjected to any kind of global anything, even if it's just for the duration required to toggle it off.

[Tamarin]

Oh god...I think that psionics is about the closest I'd ever want to get to a channel.  The day I'm in a room by myself, in Allanak, and I see:

So and so says, out of character:
"So yeah...where can I get a job in Tuluk?"

...is the day that this game has lost its charm, and thus any reason for playing it above all the other shitty games out there on the internet.

[killa]

Oh god...I think that psionics is about the closest I'd ever want to get to a channel.  The day I'm in a room by myself, in Allanak, and I see:

So and so says, out of character:
"So yeah...where can I get a job in Tuluk?"

...is the day that this game has lost its charm, and thus any reason for playing it above all the other shitty games out there on the internet.

ya i agree the game would be runned by ooc chatter and alot of problems will happen like using ooc info on where people are to find them and kill them.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, and didn't take the time to look it up, but might it be possible (if it weren't too taxing to the IMM's) to put in a general 'code' for some of the things almost every newb is going to have problems with? The main one that comes to mind is finding things in the big cities. Heck, even if someone isn't a newb, but has never played in that city, they'll be lost.. Yet, having 'born and raised in Tuluk' and not knowing where the bank is, and having to ask is a bit embarrasing. So maybe within the first so many hours of play allow a code to be used to find them. Something to the effect of typing this will get the result of...

Areas -
You can find areas in Tuluk or Allanak. Type Areas <city>

area allanak
The main areas in Allanak are:
The Bards Barrel
The Gladiator and the Gaj (you start here)
The Bazaar
The Obsidian mines

area allanak bazaar
To get to the bazaar from your starting point, go... (etc.etc.)

Like I said, it might cut back on a few problems, though admittedly not many. And making it only useable within the first 5 or so hours of play, means it won't be a permenant crutch, but while helping them find their way, it'll also make them learn it. *shrug* Just a suggestion. I know I would've found something like this very helpful. As it was, with my first character, I managed to get her a job buying a bunch of items from someone else, and then not knowing how to find them, asked someone else for help.. Who showed me all around, helped me get said items, and then mugged me.   Funny as hell, but still.

[Bestatte]

Maybe if the maps already in existence in the game (help map, help map_northlands) were updated to reflect all the changes over the past couple of years, there wouldn't be any need for more directional assistance.

In addition, "areas" (or any other coded command) isn't intuitive. A newbie needs help because they don't know what they're supposed to type to find out what they're looking for. Will new players somehow magickally know that "areas" is the word they're looking for? Or will they stumble over that just like they stumbled over "leave" before the northern "spawn-area" ceased to be an "enterable" building?

[Steel Leopard]

Something rather lame I've seen in other games is a 'hints' message which can be turned on and off.  It can be slightly effective for newbies
who care to listen to them.