Newbie Invasion

[sarahjc]

Anyone notice a lot of new players coming in recently? I feel like I have met more in the past month than normal. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I was just wondering if anyone else noticed the same. Is it our #5 status on TMS? Is it the same Newbie who keeps dying and coming back as someone new? Am I just crazy??

Also this is to the new players on the board. I have seen a few newbies that have clearly read the doc's before starting and a few that haven't. How much of the documentation did you read before you started? And what was the one thing you found hardest when you began.

I myself read almost everything the site. But I never played a Mud and I am anal like that. The one thing I can remember having trouble with was the emote system.  I was not familiar with the ~ : @ ^ % Emote Pemote ! #  ( ) system. Some things need quotes, some don't. It took me about a good 2 months to get the swing of things and about a year to start to use all those correctly and I still mess up more often than I really should.

So, thoughts, comments?

[My 2 sids]

It does seem like there are lots of new people joining and like you Sarahjc, I'm excited.  I also had never played a mud before, so had no idea what to expect.  So even reading over the documentation, I still really couldn't understand what to expect.  What actually got me into the setting, was reading over the story and log docs! The stories gave me an overall mindset of the game and logs showed me what to expect as I read.  

We have lot of documentation.  Like Sarahjc, it was very hard for me to get a hold of @,#!^ etc.  I don't know how others feel, but I'd rather have PCs that may not realize how to sit at table 4, but understand who is a noble.  I'd love to see new players pay close attention to the setting and structure of Zanathas and practice with the other stuff.

[Tamarin]

I have noticed there are a lot of newbies, and that doesn't bother me.  What DOES bother me is that a lot of them seem to be complaining and asking for changes to the code, as well as insiting on opinions that have no foundation in experience.  Please, for the love of krath before you decide to make an opinion about the game public, PLAY THE GAME FOR A FEW YEARS.

Thank you.

[killa]

nice more people to choose from  :twisted:

muhahahahahaha

[Tamarin]

killa



Joined: 01 Nov 2004

Indeed.

[sarahjc]

I don't think any certain period of time gives you the superiority to quell another person's ideas.. Often what may stem from a newbie's "Idea" on the boards can lead to that Newbies better understanding of the game, the player base and the concepts of how things are.

Joe newbie saying something like, "I hate it when people yell at me for OOC usage during the game. There really should be an OOC channel. And so what if I use OOC a lot, isn't that what it's there for?"

So now we all will jump on Joe Newbie with comments and snickers, when it is clear that Joe has not read the docs on OOC usage yet and that it should be used sparingly.

But some people will explain to Joe the reasons why OOC is not Ok all the time in game, point a link to the documentation, and Joe will learn something new.

Joe Newbie may also take the documentation too seriously and feel the need to freak out about certain things cause the Doc's say so.

Well, the doc's are guidelines not stone hard immovable facts and we all debate here on those all the time as well. Joe newbie will learn about that..

I will pick on Sjaninal again, as an example cause he is a good one. Sj often comes on with an idea.. states a case for it and then either learns something about the game mechanics/player opinion or is supported in his idea. Either way, he is -learning- something about the game and the playerbase and what is expected from his Rp.  Sjanimal will one day be a very knowledgeable player and be able to help others because of all the topics he has started and learned from. He already gives some good responses to questions.

That doesn't mean that I like you, Sjanimal.  :wink:

My thought on your comment Tamarin is, that unless you are going to be helpful to Joe newbie, don't throw down so hard on him. He is learning.

[killa]

killa



Joined: 01 Nov 2004

Indeed.

hey i been out a while my other account was made in 2002 named adrien but i cant log on to it for some reason

[Bestatte]

Newbies are fun. And they taste good with sliced ginka fruits.

I mean uh....

I've encountered a few people who seem like genuine noobs to the game lately. Not too many, but my PC hasn't been hanging out in the noob-gen rooms much lately.

Some seem to be really eager to get the hang of the RP and syntax thing. Some don't. Some pretend to be eager, but you can just tell that all they really want is for you to give them equipment and train them so they can kill mobs and get loot.

One thing I have noticed, is that a lot of these new players use "say" or the apostrophe to talk. Whether it's because they're not used to tells, or if the game they came used the "tell" command as an ooc channel, or if they just simply didn't read the docs, it seems to be a current trend.

I'd like to say for all those new players who are doing this: Please try to remember to use "tell" when you're standing, and "talk" when you're at a coded table. Here's why:

When you just plain "say" something, if there are more than one PC in the room, we won't necessarily know which of us you are talking to. In addition, it's roleplayed, that people who are "saying" rather than "telling" are talking to no one in particular, OR to everyone in the room.

If a templar sits there, and you say "Hey where can I get some armor?" the templar might take offense, because you didn't have the manners to approach him first and ask permission to speak to him before blurting out your question. And - you might not even be meaning to be addressing him. But he has no way of knowing that, because you weren't talking to anyone specific.

Another thing - is to try and pay attention to your hps. If you are down more than a few, people will see that you are bleeding. You should RP some sort of injury, or pain, or discomfort (depending on what caused your HPs to drop - sometimes it isn't getting hit, sometimes it's just being really thirsty). Walking around town "bleeding profusely" and not behaving like someone who is *seriously* injured or otherwise incapacitated detracts from the RP of everyone who encounters him.

Those are really the two most obvious things I wanted to point out to any new players who are reading this thread. There are so many subtle and not so subtle ways you can interact with the game, but those you can easily find out on your own through playing and/or reading various documentation on the website and helpfiles.

If I come across your character, and I can see that you are trying to get the hang of it but need a nudge in the right direction, I'll be more than happy to give you a hand. I know there are many others who will do the same. Until then, welcome to Armageddon, and may your death be interesting.

[ashyom]

Good observations, everyone.
I want to point out that not all muds have 'tell' command.  The ones I played prior to coming to Arm didn't.  Or any of those darned @#^&*() usages.  Most muds have just a fraction of what Arm does.  Anyways!

We Staff too have noticed an influx of new players - I think there were at least 15 in app queue at one point last Friday.  It looks like most of the recent new players came from TMS and TMC, although a few said current players told them about this mud.  Kudos!

If you want to keep them coming, vote, and submit reviews.  And keep telling your friends.
-Ashyom

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Well, I'm a newbie, but I guess things are pretty fast on the pick up after a few characters. I believe I'm getting most of it, except getting in character all the time, I do silly things [twinking] like mass crafting or mass searching at times. i'm sure the imms can attain to that if they see me playing. But I try!!!  

And my reply to the first post is I think it's all the same newbies dying and coming back with another. i did 3-4 within a week, before slowing down.

I never really noticed, but i thought Sj seems rather non newbie to me. He have some good ideas, even if they aren't all widely accepted.

[John]

But I try!!!

And in my opinion that's all that matters If you have any ideas on how to improve the mud for newbies (including the website) you should also post them up

[gofmk]

I have noticed there are a lot of newbies, and that doesn't bother me.  What DOES bother me is that a lot of them seem to be complaining and asking for changes to the code, as well as insiting on opinions that have no foundation in experience.  Please, for the love of krath before you decide to make an opinion about the game public, PLAY THE GAME FOR A FEW YEARS.

Thank you.

I'm guessing if newbies weren't allowed to have ideas as well, that they wouldn't be allowed to post on the GDB. I think all ideas are worth hearing and discussing, even if the person has played for less than three months. And we've seen it time and time again - if an idea isn't worth the discussion, it's shot down all quick like... a little discussion never hurt anything. The Imms don't fly off the handle and do what every Joe Schmoe says. :wink:

[Fnord]

Welcome all newbies! As this Mud is not particularly newbie friendly once you're in the game playing, my 2c is:

1) Read, read, read the documentation.

2) Combine that with locating a helper or two.

3) Don't be afraid of dying a few times as you ramp up.

4) Ignore the jerks like me on the GDB.

Trust us, it's a great world once you get the hang of it. Good luck, and I can't wait to kill you and take your boots.

[killa]

Welcome all newbies! As this Mud is not particularly newbie friendly once you're in the game playing, my 2c is:

1) Read, read, read the documentation.

2) Combine that with locating a helper or two.

3) Don't be afraid of dying a few times as you ramp up.

4) Ignore the jerks like me on the GDB.

Trust us, it's a great world once you get the hang of it. Good luck, and I can't wait to kill you and take your boots.

notice how he said trust us which includes him self and then metion i cant wait to kill you. lol

[Marauder Moe]

I'd like to reenforce (for newbies and oldbies alike) the idea that a lot can be learned when a proposed idea is rejected.  I once proposed an system to let players hang around a bit as a ghost after their death to gain a little closure on lost characters.  What I learned as it was rejected by most of the community and staff is that such a thing would OOCly affect how people RP.  They'd be more likely (and unrealistically) to sacrifice their characters knowing that they have a chance to see what happens.  I learned that (like in RL) you should focus on how a character lives, not how s/he dies.

So, keep an open mind, eager newbies.  Even if you're 100% convinced that your idea is a good one (I was), you can still come out better (instead of bitter) for it if proven wrong.

[Dentrik]

I've read the documentation back and forth but I retain worded information like water through a collander.  I am a hands on type and learned the hard way.  Am still learning, rather, because I make a few mistakes every play session and I haven't caught more expert arts of roleplaying, I'm sure.  I'm far in enough to cringe when I see someone else make a mistake  :wink:

But not enough to claim I'm any good.  I am playing my third or fourth character right now.

[killa]

I've read the documentation back and forth but I retain worded information like water through a collander.  I am a hands on type and learned the hard way.  Am still learning, rather, because I make a few mistakes every play session and I haven't caught more expert arts of roleplaying, I'm sure.  I'm far in enough to cringe when I see someone else make a mistake  :wink:

But not enough to claim I'm any good.  I am playing my third or fourth character right now.

cool bah from what u said i think your doing well.  Im on my 70th character and i still make mistakeswe all do
damn i got to 50 in 5 months

[Cenghiz]

It's my 30th character and second year... Still I managed to tease the imms badly just a few days ago .

[Calion]

I am one of the newbies you speak of, and I am reading all the documentation I can find. It's not enough.

I think the introductory information on the website needs to be a lot more complete. I haven't died yet in my first week or so, but there was a whale of a lot I didn't know that I wish I had. I can't think of details right now (wish I'd kept notes), but I'll think about it if anyone's interested.

I also have found a lot of useful pages on the website that don't seem to be linked to from anywhere. I've taken to Googling the site to find out what I need. Again, I'd have to do some looking to tell you what those are.

The walkthrough, in particular, needs lots of work. It says WHAT to do, but nothing about HOW to do it. Go buy equipment, it says. Great! Where?? This shouldn't be an IG secret; if you've followed the guidelines, your first character is probably a lifelong resident of Allanak, and knows where the important stuff is. So give directions in the walkthrough on how to get to the equipment dealers, grocer, etc.

There also needs to be more accessable information on religion/beliefs/slang. I had to dig hard to find out who the hell Whira was, even though she was referenced in several room descriptions like I'd know who she was.

As for poor roleplaying of being seriously wounded, I have to plead guilty as charged. I'm used to other MUDs, and I really didn't know that I was "bleeding profusely" (until somebody told me) or I would have roleplayed it better. (I did find it amusing that dehydration caused me to bleed profusely ) There HAS to be a way for players to see what others see when they look at your character, or hear a tell, or see a look. Emote works fine in this way, thank goodness, but, well, for instance, I use "look tall briefly as ~tall walk into the room." a lot. Does that work, or does it look stupid? I have no idea, and I don't want to break character to ask someone.

More gripes: There's no "commands" command. There really really really has to be. I don't even know what social commands are available, and have no idea how to find out. "Help social" returns nothing.

Lastly: I'm sure that I'm just naive and this idea will be vehemently shot down, but everywhere you look you find people or docs or helpfiles saying, over and over, "Newbies join the Byn." Great! Wonderful. Grand idea. There's only one problem: It's impossible. There are no non-comatose Byn on. Ever. Well, in about 4 days of looking for several hours a day. It's getting tiring. I think that by the time I find a Byn, I will have eaten the money I need to get in!

There are plenty of Byn in the taverns: One sergeant in the Bard's Barrel, and THREE sergeants at the Gaj! But they're all non-responsive NPCs. If joining the Byn is so important for new players, why don't we just set up one of these NPCs to be responsive to a request about "Byn," to at least START you on the process of joining. Perhaps he can say "Go talk to X person at the gates of the Byn, and tell them <name> sent you."

I know you don't want just anyone joining, but perhaps this could be the application process, and an email could be sent to an IMM and/or some clan members, and their application could be considered, perhaps with an IG interview time set up through email or mudmail or something. SOMETHING so that newbies don't feel like this MUD is dead (which it's not; there's more people on it than Sloth, but I guess it's so big it FEELS dead sometimes).

Anyway, that's my 2 ceramic.

Calion

[Xamminy]

Calion, I understand your frustration, really.

However, the 'join the Byn' sentiment is because it is a good way to learn certain aspects of the game, if there are other players in the Byn to learn from.  If the only Bynners around are NPCs, you're not going to learn much from them.

My suggestion is to find another organization that looks like it has people but could still use you for whatever you do.  Get a job with them and learn what to do from the more experienced players, and what not to do from the mistakes of the other newbies and yourself in the process as well.

[ashyom]

These are great feedbacks, Calion!  I'll be sharing them with the staff, to see if we can't help iron out some wrinkles.

Here are some initial responses to a couple of your points:
Unlinked pages - If you could send the mud - or me, either is fine - the urls to the unlinked webpages that you found, that'd be terrific.

Directions - I agree that you probably would know what is where, but there are different starting locations.  Help map has a rough outline of what's where in Allanak, and Help Northlands has one as well, for Tuluk.  Just an FYI.

There is an emote emulator, but the link appears to be broken for me (is that the case for anyone else?).  This is a nifty little webpage that helps you learn about different emotes and how they look.  It's found here: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/utilities.html

All the rest of your points are valid, and we'd be happy to get your feedbacks on the newbie start information.  Adding or removing links and relevant information might help make it a bit more intuitive for new players.  As an aside, I'm not sure what's up with the Byn these days.  I think it's slow in certain locations; feel free to email me with your account and character information, and I'll talk to the Byn staffer to see what we can do for you and any other Byn-wannabes.
Trust this helps
Ashyom
ashyom@armageddon.org

[joyofdiscord]

I use "look tall briefly as ~tall walk into the room." a lot. Does that work, or does it look stupid? I have no idea, and I don't want to break character to ask someone.

One of the instances where the emote system is imperfect is when trying to put a conjugated verb on someone else in the room.  In this case, the tall man will see:

The calion-like man looks at you briefly as you walk into the room.  
PERFECT

Other people in the room will see:
The calion-like man looks at the tall man briefly as the tall man walk into the room.

Notice that walk is now conjugated incorrectly.  There is no way to fix this, apart from the addition of a very unwieldy sort of function.  Typically I guess the rule of thumb is to make the emote correct for as many people as possible.  If there were many other people in the room, I would probably use "walks".  Only the person being looked at would see it incorrectly, and he will understand.  If the tall man were the only other PC in the room (which I was aware of...), I would probably use "walk".  Invis/hidden PC's and IMMS would see "the tall man walk", but I'd assume they'd understand.

Also, in the second example, using the tilde in that sentence means the tall man's sdesc shows up twice.  It doesn't look too bad, but to reduce redundancy, you might use #tall, which will substitute he/she.  Then third parties will see (using "walks):

The calion-like man looks at the tall man briefly as he walks into the room.

Out of context there is some ambiguity if both are male: Is Calion or the tall man walking into the room?  For those observing the situation, there should be no real confusion.

You should keep in mind, THERE IS NO COMMA BUILT INTO THE LOOK EMOTE.  This is more important than it sounds:  If you do "look elf sneering in disgust", the elf will see "The calion-like man looks at you sneering in disgust", which makes it look like HE is sneering in disgust, forcing an action on him.  I think you might be able to sneak a comma in there with "look elf, sneering in disgust", as odd as that sounds.  I'm not sure, though.  I'll let someone who knows more than me confirm it or not.  With no-comma look emotes, your friends are adverbs (so-and-so looks at you briefly, etc), conjunctions (so-and-so looks at you and smiles, so-and-so looks at you as his gaze wanders over the crowd), or prepositions (so-and-so looks at you with a sneer).

It sounds pretty complicated, but it isn't a great big deal.  I see people, usually at least one or two in every decent play-session, who are obviously experienced players, but still trip over some of these things.

[Calion]

I use "look tall briefly as ~tall walk into the room." a lot. Does that work, or does it look stupid?

Other people in the room will see:
The calion-like man looks at the tall man briefly as the tall man walk into the room.

Notice that walk is now conjugated incorrectly.  There is no way to fix this, apart from the addition of a very unwieldy sort of function.

This seems quite easy to fix. Add an function. Like so:Emote waves happily as ~tall walk into the room.

Target will see: Calion waves happily as you walk into the room.
Others will see: Calion waves happily as the tall man walks into the room.

This will work on almost any verb. On the few it doesn't (like cry), a simple substitution dictionary should take care of it.

Also, in the second example, using the tilde in that sentence means the tall man's sdesc shows up twice.  It doesn't look too bad, but to reduce redundancy, you might use #tall, which will substitute he/she.  Then third parties will see (using "walks):

The calion-like man looks at the tall man briefly as he walks into the room.

Thanks! That's just the sort of thing I was worried about. I'll fix my alias rightaway.

--
Calion

[Calion]

These are great feedbacks, Calion!  I'll be sharing them with the staff, to see if we can't help iron out some wrinkles.

Thanks. That encourages me to come up with more.

Directions - I agree that you probably would know what is where, but there are different starting locations.  Help map has a rough outline of what's where in Allanak, and Help Northlands has one as well, for Tuluk.  Just an FYI.

But the walkthrough is designed for new players, and new players are strongly encouraged to start in Allanak. So why not just include directions for 'Nak?

Besides, the walkthrough says

In the second document, a direct walkthrough of the three main starting locations  will show you where water can be attained.

Where is this second document?

There is an emote emulator, but the link appears to be broken for me (is that the case for anyone else?).  This is a nifty little webpage that helps you learn about different emotes and how they look.  It's found here: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/utilities.html

This would be great, except it seems that it's not there anymore.

And even if it were, useful as that would be, it wouldn't fix what I consider to be the biggest problem: You can't see your own code-generated ldesc. Suggestion: in Score, ALWAYS show the character's ldesc, even if it's code-generated. That would pretty much fix the problem.

Thanks for your help!

--
Calion

[jhunter]

But the walkthrough is designed for new players, and new players are strongly encouraged to start in Allanak. So why not just include directions for 'Nak?

Well, I personally think it's better that you find out in game yourself. Here's why:

1) Walking around the city looking will help you get to know it better.

2) Asking other pcs where to find such places gives you an opportunity to get involved with others from the start and can actually provide some entertaining roleplay.

3) It gives you more inclination to be self-motivated to find these things out ICly and will most likely result in you being more self-motivated in the future. Self-motivated people seem to add alot more to the game as far as interaction and RP go, IMO.

[Calion]

Well, I personally think it's better that you find out in game yourself.

Hunter, in any other case I would agree with you. But not this one.

Picture the situation: A rank newbie (possibly new to MUDs in general) enters the game. He has absolutely no idea what he's doing, except that he's read most of the files on the "Introductory information" page, has created a character, has printed out the Walkthrough and is holding it in his hand as he trepidatiously makes his first steps into the wonderful world of Armageddon. The point of a walkthrough is to give a complete newbie something to do for the first half hour of playing, and give him the sense that he has some remote idea of what he is doing. I don't really care what the walkthrough says, whether it is buying equipment or killing a rat. But the instructions should be detailed enough so that the player doesn't have to learn more about the game just to be able to use the walkthrough!

I tried to use the walkthrough. I failed. By the time I knew my way around well enough to use the walkthrough, I had learned enough that I didn't need it. The bit about PROMPT was the only part I used.

2) Asking other pcs where to find such places gives you an opportunity to get involved with others from the start and can actually provide some entertaining roleplay.

This seems weird to me. Supposedly my character has lived here his whole life, yet he has to ask someone to find out where to get some water? ICly, this is bound to look strange and possibly arouse suspicion. Seems probable that I would be accused as a spy from a warring city-state.

Armageddon doesn't have a newbie channel. It doesn't have a gossip channel. OOC is discouraged. The only ways for a new player to figure things out are through good documentation or being lucky enough to find another player to take him under his wing (which is what happened to me).

I tried to get on ARM several years ago. I loved roleplaying, and was a huge Dark Sun fan. A perfect candidate, it would seem, for an Armageddon player. But after I entered the world, I had almost no idea what I was doing, there was no one else around, and I wandered around for a while getting completely lost until I gave up and quit. I don't want this to happen to other promising newbies.

Sorry for the rant.

Calion

[Jherlen]

As another person who's just started about a week ago, I guess I'll chip in some too.

I agree with a lot of Calion's comments, really. About the docs: They've been -great- for me to read and look up as a reference, and were very very helpful in making my background. I managed to find my way to the Bazaar and buy new clothes on my own as the walkthrough suggested. Beyond that, though, I was sort of lost for my first few hours.

My suggestion would be to enhance "help map" just slightly. Maybe put the locations of somewhere besides the bars to find food and drink (since I read in another thread that eating bar food isn't the best idea -- why is that, by the way?)

One thing about being told where to find stuff by docs... It's pretty reasonable to think a resident of Allanak would know where to get food and water. But I don't think every resident of the city would know everything about it. Allanak is a big place, after all. My character's boss has been giving me assignments to go run around and find out what things are and where I can find them in Allanak, which is a great way to RP *and* get me knowing more about the city, IC and OOC.

- ALSO, another thing with help map - it doesn't even show the Bard's Barrel on it! I'm kinda surprised by that, given the level of activity that that place seems to see.

- I definitely like Calion's idea. Maybe for easier typing though it could just be shortened to one character, like a +, as in...

emote sings a silly song as ~kid fall+ into the gumball machine.
Target sees: The short oompa-loompa sings a silly song as you fall into the gumball machine.
Others see: The short oompa-loompa sings a silly song as the fat kid falls into the gumball machine.

Same thing, just now we dont have to type 3 characters. I'm lazy.

- Echoes for our own look actions would be immensely helpful, too.

Despite the harshness of the game world and the emphasis on no OOC communication in game, I've been finding the staff, the docs, and the players very helpful. You guys are doing an awesome job.

[jhunter]

This seems weird to me. Supposedly my character has lived here his whole life, yet he has to ask someone to find out where to get some water? ICly, this is bound to look strange and possibly arouse suspicion. Seems probable that I would be accused as a spy from a warring city-state.

You can ask these sorts of questions in a way that would make a bit more sense ICly.

Rather than asking: "Where can I get some water?" Which sounds odd if your supposed to have lived there. How about:
"Where do you think you can get the best deal on water?" Sounds alot better icly and will get your OOC need met most likely.

There's more than one way to do things. Anyway, I don't mind that you disagree with me, it's just my opinion of things as I've seen and experienced  them. I personally explored, asked around and figured things out myself. I've seen several newbies in game do the same thing and it provided some entertainment for those involved. So you can go find out from a walkthrough with no interaction with others...or you can be creative and figure out ways to go about it ICly and create much more enjoyment.

Everyone is different, some people like to be handed everything, some like to figure it out.

In alot of cases, it's not the destination that's the fun part...it's the journey getting there.


I'm just trying to open you up to the idea that you may be missing out on something by not putting forth more effort into figuring it out IC rather than getting the information OOCly.

Anyway, however you go about it....welcome and good luck!

[Anonymous]

Caliton


I would agree with you that it seems odd that a person that lived in a place all his/her life would not know where to get water. But.. Asking that is also a newbie flag (as most spies already know).  Also by asking in game you will be amazed at how much people will offer to help you get started.. Just don't leave the city with them.

Yeah it's kind of IC weird, but.. maybe you hit your head or.. just can't seem to remember the right shop. Or you are from the south side of town and don't really come up into the main city drag all too much.  There are lots of excuses you can use to smooth out the IC wrinkles.  

There are things that are just taken as the way things are when anyone starts a new PC.

You will have to work around the learning curve, so even if your PC was a hunter for years, you will have to work around the fact that he can't use a bow for shit in some IC way. It's just how it is.

Aside from that, I agree that when you pick your first city your walk through should give you the basics for survival. Where to quit, where to get water, clothing/armor and food in either city. I don't think we are giving up any Huge IC secretes with those ones. The rest should be left up for exploring and for asking IC.

Also the Byn is not the only place to get hired to learn the robes of the game. It's a good place, but other houses can be just  as fun. I would say pick a house that you a -lot- of players around in your play time and try to get hired there.

One more point is there is an OOC chat area. The IRC Channel, the link can be found in the OOC forum along with the IRC room guild lines.  We don't discuss IC info there but you can talk to other players and we do sometimes have very Generic discussions about the game. That said, we are also all pretty policing on what is discussed in the IRC room.

Also please make use of the helpers list. These people are always available to answer questions and offer advice. But that Mansa kid is crazy...

Anyway.. that was a great response that you gave, it was the exact kind of answer I was looking for. I'd like to see more of that from the other newbies. No we are not a Newbie friendly mud, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get better at it.

I hope you stick with it.. You will find out that the world and the players will keep surprising you again and again. We don't call it Crackageddon for nothing.

[Calion]

You can ask these sorts of questions in a way that would make a bit more sense ICly.

Rather than asking: "Where can I get some water?" Which sounds odd if your supposed to have lived there. How about:
"Where do you think you can get the best deal on water?" Sounds alot better icly and will get your OOC need met most likely.

Really good ideas. But something that is not going to occur to most newbies. This is the sort of thing that should go into the initial documentation. I would just like to see a clearer path, starting from the main webpage, to get new players on a confident footing.

I agree it's lots better to figure things out yourself than to be spoonfed. And people certainly don't have to use the walkthrough. But for those people who do want it, I think a step-by-step intro would be a good way not to scare off newbies.

The Gods might be able to help answer this: How many new players get on once or twice and are never heard from again?

Calion

[Bestatte]

Room descriptions are pretty good at getting you to the right spot. The map shows you exactly where the merchant's quarter is, and within the merchant's quarter is exactly what you'd expect to find: merchants. People who will buy and sell things. There's a grocer outside that quarter, but there is also an NPC who will sell food right in the market there.

As for water, I am certain I've read in the docs somewhere that it's available on the way to the merchant's quarter from the Gaj. The room descriptions will let you know when you're close.

Most of what you seek regarding "where do I find..." are easily available by reading the room descriptions. It's kinda hard to get lost in Allanak. The rooms tell you where you are, and where Tek's spire is in relation to where you are. If you remember that Tek's spire is more or less southeasterly, you should have no problem finding your way around, based solely on that and nothing else.

As for commands, there is a new mechanics page, but unfortunately it's buried within a doc within a doc. Here's the URL:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/mechanics.html

It would seem you should be able to link to it from the "general" section of the main site, but that isn't the case. You have to go to the "general" section, and then to the "ooc" section, and THEN you'll find the link. Hardly intuitive, which is a shame since that was the whole point of the mechanics page.  But it should be a help to you in any case. Oh and don't try reading it with Netscape v7.x. For some reason it's coming up as a blank white page. Works fine on Internet Explorer and Foxfire though.

Good luck, and make use of the Helpers. They love this stuff

[John]

There is an emote emulator, but the link appears to be broken for me (is that the case for anyone else?).

Yes this is the case (unfortunately). I'll try to get it fixed.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The Gods might be able to help answer this: How many new players get on once or twice and are never heard from again?

I'm not a god.  Hell, I'm not even a staff member.  But I would expect the answer to that question to be a lot.  A whole hell of a lot.

You see, the hardships that newbies inevitably come across has nothing to do with the inadequacy of the website.  Perhaps it can be improved, I wouldn't know.  I never had any problems with it, so I imagine it has little to do with the website itself and more to do with perception.

But anyway, the reason that we retain so few newbies, and will continue to do so, is because of the game.  We can make the website prettier, we can make it even easier to use than it already is, we can have more helpful features than we already have, and it still won't change that.  The learning curve is steep, and it's easy to die if you don't know what you're doing.  In the end, you either stay, or you don't.  If you do stay, then it's something to be proud of.  That's all there is to it.

[sarahjc]

Dammit, I am the kank a few posts back.. Again..  

I am always the kank.

Anyway, that's my 2 ceramic.

Calion

Great newbie experience feedback, Calion, thanks for posting.

[Seeker]

(perhaps a mentor would have been of some use here?)



:waggles some fingers in a subtle wave to ~sarahjc slyly.

[Xygax]

(perhaps a mentor would have been of some use here?)

I think a mentor system would be a turn-off for a lot of people who just wanna do their thing and get started.  That's not to say we shouldn't have one; as it will be a boon to the people that are inclined to use that sort of thing.  But I absolutely don't think we should rely on it or make it manditory in any way.

I think a better approach is for us to take considered feedback like Calion's, and do something with it.    (and I agree with Ness, it's been very useful)

-- X

[sarahjc]

I don't think a mentor should be mandatory either. The idea was to give an -offer- for a mentor at first character creation.

Something that says "We know you are new, we have assigned this person to help you. You are not obligated to use them, but if you want to, please inform us so that we can let the person know and contact them by these means."

I agree that being forced to take a mentor would be a turn off for a lot of people when they make their PC. But I don't think a non-intrusive personal offer is bad. I'd bet that after playing for 15 minutes, at least half would wish they had someone to talk to that can help them, then go back and request the offered service.

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

[Bestatte]

Would need to be coded in some how..similar things I've seen in other games maybe.

Helpers would be given "Mentor" status in the game. This would allow them to toggle on or off their status (so if they're deep into some heavy duty RP they don't have to feel pushed into running off to help someone).

Newbie enters the Hall of Kings - could be the first -or- second character for that account. They pick the town, and are transported to a "limbo" room in that town, before entering the character-spawn location. Mentor gets an auto-send from the system saying "Newbie has entered the Allanak Limbo. Would you like to help?" They could "wish system yes" or "wish system no" and if it's yes, Newbie would get the blurb saying that so-and-so has offered assistance. System asks newbie if they want it, and a yes or no would prompt the mentor.

The whole process from the Newbie picking the town to the Mentor showing up would be a matter of seconds.

[Calion]

I would agree with you that it seems odd that a person that lived in a place all his/her life would not know where to get water. But.. Asking that is also a newbie flag (as most spies already know).  Also by asking in game you will be amazed at how much people will offer to help you get started.. Just don't leave the city with them.

Actually, that's another thing. The initial documentation makes it very very clear that Zalanthas is an unfriendly place, and every other person you meet is likely to want to kill you.

Fine, great, wonderful. Armageddon is a harsh, gritty, realistic world and that's why I love it. But that attitude does not encourage newbies to go up to the first person they see and say "Hi, how's it going, hey I need some help here!"

I did find out, much to my surprise, that many players were quite friendly. But it took me a while to realize that saying the wrong thing wasn't going to get me instantly killed (usually).

I don't know how to fix this. Perhaps a note in the newbie docs along the lines of what you said above?

Calion

[Calion]

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

I like this. something to serve the purpose of a Newbie channel. Of course, an actual Newbie channel (perhaps one-way, like Wish--that is, you ask a question, you get an answer, but you don't hear others' questions and answers) connecting you to whatever Helpers are in-game would be the easiest way to solve this, but not necessarily the best.

Calion

[sarahjc]

Bessy,

I wasn't even really thinking of that codewise in game, more of just another note added to the approval email. Not that I am against that, but I am not sure how much imms are concerned with control over the game there.. If there would be a helper channel of  communication. Much like how the Imm channel works. That would be cool. It would also cut down on a lot of the OOC breaks in character for questions newbies ask and need explained in game and would also cutting down on the lost/I don't belong feeling a bit.

You could have your helper account and your ordinary account with the option to log in or out of the helper account as you choose.

You could make a helper command

When the Newbie has a question they could type:

Helper Bestatte  Can you please tell me how I can talk –to- a specific person?

And either get back something like

Your helper is unavailable type Helper all to see about an alternate guide.

OR

Bestatte has received your message.

This line of OOC communication would also be helpful is a helper clearly spots a struggling newbie.

Again, this cuts down on breach of character and disruption of Rp.



Calion,

No we do not post a newbie friendly sign. And that is because if we did, all newbies would be prancing out the city gates with that nice elf they just met that doesn't speak sirihish so good.

Nah, I'm kidding. But the world itself, the code and all the learning curves associated with it make the game anti-newbie. Also the fact that our players tend to take the Rp aspect of the game very seriously and we don't really like our Rp disrupted all the time.  Our OOC channel is used very sparingly, mostly to help out a struggling player, set up play times and question code issues.  You will almost never see jokes and conversations going on past more than a line or two in our OOC channel. It's frowned upon.

It's not that we are not friendly to Newbies, we're great ... But how the –game- itself is structured that makes it not so newbie friendly.. But you should never be afraid to ask questions IC and OOC.

[sarahjc]

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

I like this. something to serve the purpose of a Newbie channel. Of course, an actual Newbie channel (perhaps one-way, like Wish--that is, you ask a question, you get an answer, but you don't hear others' questions and answers) connecting you to whatever Helpers are in-game would be the easiest way to solve this, but not necessarily the best.

Calion

And I like you.  

Actually I touched upon this with the past post.. I like Bessy's idea quite a bit.  We could at least start something with out of game communication. But the in game closed channel communication would at least provide some Imm supervision.

[Delirium]

Gamewide channels = bad.

It's a slippery, slippery slope. Please, please, please no OOC channels IG save the OOC command itself.

[Bestatte]

Just keep in mind Calion (et al) I'm not a helper. I'm just a busybody nosey old fart who happens to have a soft spot when the mood strikes.

[Calion]

Gamewide channels = bad.

It's a slippery, slippery slope. Please, please, please no OOC channels IG save the OOC command itself.

Yes. But I'm not talking about a gamewide channel. I'm talking about something that works exactly like Wish--except it goes to Helpers instead.

[Delirium]

I still think it's very important to keep a firm distinction between helpers and staff. A helper is still a player, and thus they are there to roleplay when they're logged into the game. I would hate to see helpers become mini-staff members, having to deal with a barrage of OOC information scrolling across their client screen when they're trying to roleplay.

If they want to be available to help, they'll log on to their helper AIM/MSN/ICQ account or what-have-you. Much simpler and no extra coding necessary. That way, the OOC is kept separate from the game itself - and it's also easier for a helper to be a lot more verbose and link-happy in a chat prog than in the game itself.

[sarahjc]

I think that ICQ, AIM and all those work just fine but a few points on counter:

1. They are not policed and there is no way to monitor what people doing/saying in those channels. You are right Deliruim, helpers are not Imms. And sometimes they can be wrong.

2. I think a helper channel would be a great way to cut down the OOC usage and take more advantage of the helpers in the game as an untapped resource for new player assistance. Cutting down on Imm workload. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to pop in to the room that the other person is in.. But it would be similar to using the way, minus loosing HP.  Person to person without effecting the other players in either person's room.

3. Give it a time limit. New players should only be allowed the helper command for the first 6 weeks maybe?

4. Also the helper has control over what they want to do. Just feel like playing tonight and not being bothered?? Don't log in to your helper account, bored and there is nothing going on at the moment. Log back in it.

[Bestatte]

I kinda see it the same way as sarah. Right now, we have the OOC command. While I haven't seen it abused or over-used, I have seen it disrupt RP in a crowded room of PCs fairly often. Most of the time, it's someone trying to help a new player, and the new player responding. In a room filled with PCs, I can only imagine that there must be at least one or two helpers there, sitting idle at their stools and waiting for their PC's boss, or the guy they're spying on, or the magicker they're waiting to kill. During that time, I can also imagine how awesome it would be if they were able to communicate *as a helper* to the new player, without disrupting the RP of everyone else.

Out-of-game help can only go so far in helping people. Sometimes you really do need to take someone by the hand and go with them, observe what they're doing so you can give them tips and hints on improvement or explain why whatever they're trying to do isn't working.

Also as sarah points out, out-of-game help isn't monitored. In-game help isn't always monitored, but the staff is able to monitor as needed or available. Again as sarah mentions, helpers aren't staff, but when a helper is wrong out-of-game, there's no one to make sure they correct the misinformation. In game, there is. I think that if something like this was do-able from a coding perspective, and obviously at the convenience of any interested IMM, it would be a great addition to the game in regards to player-retention among the newbie population.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I came from a game where there were channels.  One of them was a helper channel.  As a player, I have no desire to see any in game channels, including a helper channel.  Yes, in-game channels have a certain utility.  They're also a massive detriment to your roleplaying experience.  Not just a big detraction.  Monolithic.

Let's also not forget the lovely possibility of embarassing mischannels.  Seriously, Delirium's slippery slope argument is valid.  It will start as a good idea, and end up as cancer.

[Calion]

Jolly, are you sure you understand what we are talking about? This isn't a "channel" in the traditional sense of a chat forum. This will be targeted conversation: A newbie saying Help! and a helper answering that newbie with whatever assistance he feels like giving. No one else besides the helper(s) hear the cry for help; no one else besides the newbie hears the response (except for whatever IMMs might be listening in). It will work precisely like the current "Wish" commands.

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea; I'm not convinced of it myself, though I am intrigued by it. I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Calion

[JollyGreenGiant]

That's somewhat better in that it removes the temptation to chat on an open channel, but it still presents a problem.  The immortals handling of wish requests isn't jarring to them.  They've got a screen full of junk already; one more bit of OOC information makes no difference.  To me, though, when I'm attempting to stay in character, the appearance of one or potentially multiple people sending me requests for assistance in game would be bothersome.  I couldn't say why exactly, but I can handle someone popping up on a messenger service with far more aplomb than I could manage in game.  Something about the separation of the two makes it easier for me to keep them separate in my mind.

And of course, I still don't need the temptation to mischannel...

[Agent_137]

If the helper doesn't have an instant messenger, I highly doubt they want any kind of OOC interaction outside of email.

So why the hell would they be willing to handle it IG of all places?

And if they DO have an instant messenger, just use that. Sure it isn't policed, but big deal. They're helpers. They're trusted.

I would like to see more helpers WITH instant messengers, though. Like, as a helper you should be encouraged to make a helper name on aim, msn, and icq.

[RunningMountain]

I'm not a "helper" but I have a lot of newbies on my aim list that constantly msg me for help and I give it.  All players even new ones want to simply know the same things that you would know playing the game for 5 years.  Not necessarily sensitive ic info, but where the shops are, where to go for armor/weapons/clothing, or to simply get a pick for that matter.  I don't really see that kind of stuff as ic info and I would tell them how to get to the bazaar in allanak.  

As far as all this helper channel talk goes, I would love to see another command much like the change locdesc thing that would send you into an OOC room where you coudl then talk to a player one on one and explain a few things to them.  The command could be enter helproom or something and it could either be one of many rooms where only 2 players could be or 1 room altogether where more then one player could be to speak oocly on something.  I hate going ooc in the middle of a tavern to tell the newbie dwarf to stop tugging on his beard.  Either way I'd hate to see a global channel for it, just another place to go for private ooc communication with someone.

-RM

[Adhira]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[jhunter]

Adhira wrote:
Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[sarahjc]

Adhira wrote:
Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

Well, since three of you think the exact same way, and a lot of others, I am a curious as to why. Is it because of other RP games with OOC channels tend to break down the game?

Also the idea I was thinking was a very limited tool. It would be strictly used by Helpers and New players only and only to answer questions. It would not release the Helper's PC short desc to the Newbie, only account name, and would not allow the helper to have any sort of room hopping ability.  Just simple question answer.  The only other thing I would perhaps like is to give the helper the ablity to send a "help" to anyone in that room.

Example:

Send help The tall, dark and handsome man To talk to a person at table you can use the talk command and then only those at your table and others "listening" will be able to hear the conversation.


Now I think the OOC lines of communication are fine as well. But I like the idea that the staff can monitor a help channel and just the plain idea that people should be offered a helper on Character creation.

[Anonymous]

Because, in general, I can think of few occasions worth breaking immersion to get a command right and in those cases, OOC does the job fine as opposed to some in gaming help messaging system which could see helpers barraged by questions from players who didn't read the rules enough.  Like I would have done when I was new.

Regardless, the problem with new players isn't overcoming the learning curve, it's getting them involved in plots and relationships to make overcoming the learning curve something they want to do.

No amount of hand-holding will make up for the fact that a newbie sitting at a  table alone won't get spoken too and is highly likely to go try to kill something or get lost, lose their character and not come back.

[jhunter]

No amount of hand-holding will make up for the fact that a newbie sitting at a table alone won't get spoken too and is highly likely to go try to kill something or get lost, lose their character and not come back.

Exactly, this relates to what I was saying earlier about trying to get people to be more self-motivated rather than just giving them everything. I'd prefer that people take the time to search the documentation and try to find it for themselves...or strive to find out in game.
This will help prevent the newbie from sitting in a tavern and doing nothing and creates opportunities for interaction with other pcs. Also, in my opinion...if someone doesn 't want to take the time to find out for themselves and read the docs or search in game when possible...then it's no big loss to me if they don't stick around.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Personally, I'd rather not see this introduced to the game.

[Rhyden]

I've also noticed the steady increase of 'noobs' lately. And I agree that only so much can be explained 'OOCly', but, that's how I learned. I think that it's not a major annoyance however and the way I see it, the more noobs we 'teach', the less work all us more experienced players have to do!

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I see a lot of link-dead players standing there for the entire week, who apparently gave up. Usually they tend to have a -not so important yet rather expensive item- on them, which means they don't know how to earn their sids and they don't know what to buy. So maybe player retention methods can be worked through this.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, I'll go against the grain.

I support the idea of a newbie channel. I see it as capable of being turned on and off by the helpers, so that during RP they do not have to see it, but perhaps during those barfly hours, they can turn it on. The fact is that while we are streamlining the website slowly but surely, there is simply too much stuff for it all to be easily accessable, and when you start telling folks to read the website, that means that they need to remember all that they read, or struggle trying to find it again.

The Helper Page ... certianly a great idea, because we are not always logged into the game, but we can still be around to assist you. But it has not the convienence of a newbie channel. Players coming from other MUDs are almost universally used to a newbie channel, and that will be the first thing they try when they do not understand the game.

Are these folks, because they are perhaps too lazy to search the Helpers' Page, or too in a hurry to play to wait for one to come online, not worthy of playing Armageddon? I think not. Everyone is taught at some point in their life, and that is how they learn, by being taught. Some folks take a while to get the spirit nessessary to fall into the world we play in. A newbie channel would address this problem, and I think rather admirably.

[Dracul]

Could always do a trial basis....and then just rip the newbie channel out if its found in practice to be detrimental.

[aruna]

I don't see a problem with a trial run, but I'm also not a helper... so I guess it's up to the Imms and the helpers to decide whether this is a good idea or not.

Just one thing:

The only other thing I would perhaps like is to give the helper the ablity to send a "help" to anyone in that room.

Example:

Send help The tall, dark and handsome man To talk to a person at table you can use the talk command and then only those at your table and others "listening" will be able to hear the conversation.

I don't think being able to send a help to just anyone is a good idea - only the ones that want the feedback. If helpers can toggle the newbie channel on and off, I think the newbies should be able to do so as well.  If the channel is going to work, it's going to have to work the same both ways.

Just my opinion.

[Steel Leopard]

But what defines a newbie?

I've been playing for almost three weeks, but I still have so many
questions, dispite turning the website inside out looking for clues.
I often spend unnessary amounts of time re-finding things I could
have SWORN read at some point before, just to do a fact-check.

The helpers are great, but some really great roleplayers are also
mildly impatient.  You have to apply for your character, and this
is a great idea to keep the IC integrity of the world together.  But
it's time spent twiddling your thumbs.  If you are a true newbie,
and honestly interesting in learning to play and seeking out info,
you may also not want to spend another couple of days waiting
for an email to replied, possibly only to realize you need to email
someone else about something different.  Some helpers offer
AIM, YIM, and ICQ, but there is no gaurentee that there will be
anyone online for any stretch of time.  Most newbies most likely
won't even have the correct messenger service they need to get
in contact with someone.

A channel would be great.  It could be strictly used for informational
and help purposes, available for everyone to access, with the option
of having it turned off and on at will.  Names and IDs would, of course,
be the out-of-character account name of a player.  The channel, if
implemented, would be TONS better if it was able to be accessed out-
side of the actual game--i.e, through an option in the welcome or log-
in screen.  This would help with those newbies who are intimidated
with the character creation process or want to familiarize themselves
with stuff in the game BEFORE they begin game-play.  Always good,
and certainly saves embarassment.

Admin, helpers, and other such people could possibly be tagged visibly
on the channel to let true newbies know who to take facts or replies
from, and who not to.  People can also be banned from using the channel
(although not from watching it, possibly) for misuse or hassling newbies.

And yes, it would probably take some effort in maintaining, policing,
and monitoring the channel, but nothing good comes without a price.

As stated before, people coming from other games may be used to
having a channel.  The newbie channel will also offer an avenue to
newbies to let them know that the people behind the MUD and the
characters are good-natured people seeking fun, not just sadistic
evil creepy people who like to run around and spank newbies just to
get their 'sids.

[Marauder Moe]

Gah!  No channels!  Keep them away!

If we give newbies an OOC help channel they're going to think its ok to use it  at lot, and possibly by extension the OOC command.  

There's no need to try and change this game to make it more friendly to the average gamer.  People who play this game are NOT the average gamer.  This may sound harsh, but if someone doesn't have the patience to wait for character approvals or the discipline to keep OOC to a minimum then this isn't the right MUD for them.

[Steel Leopard]

I think you are wrong there.

You have no right to exclude people who are or have the ability to
become wonderful, skilled roleplayers just because they are unfamiliar
with MUDing or are having a difficult time adjusting to Armageddon's
difficult learning curve.  I mean, technically, if you are an imm, you
'do', but morally, you don't.  Especially if you want Armageddon to
continue growing.  Especially if you think you are more special than
someone half-way across the world who may actually have a more
vivid and creative imagination than you, simply because you want to
keep the game hard, in an OOC context.

Besides, the faster a newbie learns, the less time more advanced
roleplayers or people used to Arm's environment have to spend dealing
with them.  Unless you're just that asshole kind of type that will never
even touch a newbie because it would soil you.

Besides, we are talking about something that would be a convience
to new players and people seeking information that would normally
be hard to find.  Besides the people who decide to put forth the effort
to stay on the channel and help these people, it should in no way
affect you or your roleplaying experience.  If it pisses you off, turn
it off and never look back.  Simple.

As for letting newbies think that it's okay to make extensive use of the
channel, what's wrong with that?  Will that not be it's purpose?  Sure,
newbies who are talking about what they saw at the mall that day would
certainly need to be reminded about the rules for such a channel,
but what is the crime in asking honest questions?

As for making useage of OOC, enough players are so rediculously ANAL
about it to squash any such behavior out very early.

[Bestatte]

I'll chime in here - by disagreeing with the suggested implementation by Steel Leopard.

First of all, I am all in favor of some in-game way of OOC communication between helpers and "helpees."

I just really - really - think that a global OOC channel is that absolute wrong way to go about it.

I think the last thing any well-meaning person wants, is to be inundated with a barage of newbie requests, comments, criticisms, and quips. A global OOC channel BEGS for that kind of thing, particularly since that's how global OOC channels usually work in other muds, where many new players come from.

I think I can safely say that no one here wants to deal with spending all their time reminding new players to stop yapping on the OOC channel, or asking IC-sensitive things, etc. etc. etc.

It would end up being unused by the vast majority of players, and whatever poor imm gets stuck monitoring the thing would likely suffer from apoplexy after the first hour.

I prefer a much more gentle means - such as some which have already been mentioned in this thread. Assigning a newbie to an available helper, with permission required on both sides, or an encounter with a helper in a room just past the hall of kings, and just before the character drop-off location in the town they pick. In this way, the newbie can have a one-on-one conversation with someone who has proven to the staff that they are trustworthy. In this way, no one who is well-meaning, but just as new and un-knowing as the newbie, can chime in with whatever they *think* they know, thus confusing the issue more. This way, no player who isn't a helper has to be subjected to any kind of global anything, even if it's just for the duration required to toggle it off.

[Tamarin]

Oh god...I think that psionics is about the closest I'd ever want to get to a channel.  The day I'm in a room by myself, in Allanak, and I see:

So and so says, out of character:
"So yeah...where can I get a job in Tuluk?"

...is the day that this game has lost its charm, and thus any reason for playing it above all the other shitty games out there on the internet.

[killa]

Oh god...I think that psionics is about the closest I'd ever want to get to a channel.  The day I'm in a room by myself, in Allanak, and I see:

So and so says, out of character:
"So yeah...where can I get a job in Tuluk?"

...is the day that this game has lost its charm, and thus any reason for playing it above all the other shitty games out there on the internet.

ya i agree the game would be runned by ooc chatter and alot of problems will happen like using ooc info on where people are to find them and kill them.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, and didn't take the time to look it up, but might it be possible (if it weren't too taxing to the IMM's) to put in a general 'code' for some of the things almost every newb is going to have problems with? The main one that comes to mind is finding things in the big cities. Heck, even if someone isn't a newb, but has never played in that city, they'll be lost.. Yet, having 'born and raised in Tuluk' and not knowing where the bank is, and having to ask is a bit embarrasing. So maybe within the first so many hours of play allow a code to be used to find them. Something to the effect of typing this will get the result of...

Areas -
You can find areas in Tuluk or Allanak. Type Areas <city>

area allanak
The main areas in Allanak are:
The Bards Barrel
The Gladiator and the Gaj (you start here)
The Bazaar
The Obsidian mines

area allanak bazaar
To get to the bazaar from your starting point, go... (etc.etc.)

Like I said, it might cut back on a few problems, though admittedly not many. And making it only useable within the first 5 or so hours of play, means it won't be a permenant crutch, but while helping them find their way, it'll also make them learn it. *shrug* Just a suggestion. I know I would've found something like this very helpful. As it was, with my first character, I managed to get her a job buying a bunch of items from someone else, and then not knowing how to find them, asked someone else for help.. Who showed me all around, helped me get said items, and then mugged me.   Funny as hell, but still.

[Bestatte]

Maybe if the maps already in existence in the game (help map, help map_northlands) were updated to reflect all the changes over the past couple of years, there wouldn't be any need for more directional assistance.

In addition, "areas" (or any other coded command) isn't intuitive. A newbie needs help because they don't know what they're supposed to type to find out what they're looking for. Will new players somehow magickally know that "areas" is the word they're looking for? Or will they stumble over that just like they stumbled over "leave" before the northern "spawn-area" ceased to be an "enterable" building?

[Steel Leopard]

Something rather lame I've seen in other games is a 'hints' message which can be turned on and off.  It can be slightly effective for newbies
who care to listen to them.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

A newbie needs help because they don't know what they're supposed to type to find out what they're looking for. Will new players somehow magickally know that "areas" is the word they're looking for?

I did see a map of Allanak somewhere in the docs when I started, but honestly, the way it was set up, all text characters and such made it hard enough to understand (for me anyway) it wasn't much help. But if something like this was coded, it'd probably be easy enough to include information about it in the same place about the rerolls, death and other 'when you start' things. So obviously, if it's coded for newbies, something will be added to the docs to let them know it's there.

Of course, if they're not smart enough to even read the newbie docs when they start, that'd be their own damn fault. Then again, instead of coding in a whole system, even adding in a section of roughly where to find the major points in the "What you know" city docs would be a nice step up.

[Bestatte]

Of course, if they're not smart enough to even read the newbie docs when they start, that'd be their own damn fault. Then again, instead of coding in a whole system, even adding in a section of roughly where to find the major points in the "What you know" city docs would be a nice step up.

See that's the thing. If they're smart enough to read the newbie docs when they start, then they wouldn't need all that much help in the first place.

It doesn't really have much to do with being smart. It has to do with retaining the information after they've read it. Some people are better at that than others. It also has a lot to do with the flow of the documentation. The staff has been working on improving that, but it still has a long way to go before the flow works in sync with the average new players' thought processes.

If you look at the main game page ( www.armageddon.org ) you will see that there isn't even a category called "For New Players." That should be the focal point, right there. There's a link 3/4 of the way down the page called "Quickstart" and it's a help, but not even remotely as helpful as if it were a category on the main menu.

In addition, the Quickstart isn't all inclusive. Helpful yes, inclusive no. And even the quickstart isn't categorized, and if you are surfing the site looking for something mentioned in it, there's no link back to the Quickstart from any of those other pages. Information is just SO scattered and illogically placed that it can take hours just to learn that what you're looking for doesn't exist.

Another example is information about desert elves. There are plenty of pages that explain things about them, but there's no one category that includes links to all of those pages. So if you don't find what you're looking for in one, you might not even know that another one exists to look for.

Above and beyond anything else, I think a reorganization of the website will be the single most significant step in helping new players. If I was proficient in HTML and Java or whatever else they use for the site, I'd do it myself and submit it in one fell swoop after several weeks of work. But I'm not, so I can't.

[My 2 sids]

Above and beyond anything else, I think a reorganization of the website will be the single most significant step in helping new players.

We know we have the docs.  We know we gain a lot of smart people.  So, I'm thinking that perhaps a lack of communication is to blame for new members (in general, not the ones who refuse to at lest try) not understanding where to find things.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

See that's the thing. If they're smart enough to read the newbie docs when they start, then they wouldn't need all that much help in the first place.
.....
Above and beyond anything else, I think a reorganization of the website will be the single most significant step in helping new players. If I was proficient in HTML and Java or whatever else they use for the site, I'd do it myself and submit it in one fell swoop after several weeks of work. But I'm not, so I can't.

As to the first.. I read the docs before starting. I poured through them, wanting to be prepared and not have people be able to single me out by stupid oopses and say "Oh great, another twinky newb", because I fancied myself some sort of excellent RPer anyway, though the type of game wasn't quite the same as this, in either genre or code. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, I made several, despite my research of the docs.
To the second., agreed. I think if there were some different organization, and more extensive linkage to different docs that have information on similar areas (like all the info spread out on d-elfs like you mentioned), I might not have made near so many idiot mistakes as I did. Because if you're looking for one thing, and have to crawl through 20 pages to find 4 docs about this thing, by the time you've read the last, you've forgotten part of the first, or even more if your memory sucks like mine. And likewise, if I knew a single thing about java/html, I'd volunteer to work on it, but all I've ever done (and then with some hassle) was the basic drag and click pages.

[Krath]

I believe Calion or another new should post their experience again, rather than us Old Players
becauase we have a skewed view since we have been here so long. I will say this, the Docs
Prepare the newbies below average-average(on a scale of 1-10, 4-5) Not as good as it could
be, but enough to be sufficient.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Well, I'm not -very- new, but from what I gather reading on the boards, having not played a full year yet, I still qualify as a newb, or semi-newb anyway. I haven't even flamed anyone on the boards yet, I must be new.  :roll:  :wink:

[Agent_137]

I'm under a year. I still remember my noobdom clearly. This is how it went:

1. Got tired of my old mud because it was roleplay "encouraged."

2. Had the bright idea that permadeath would make everything more real.

3. Followed my old mud's link to Top Mud Sites.

4. Tried the first roleplay required permadeath mud I found.

5. Read all the docs. Over and over.

6. Thought up a character.

7. Participated on the boards.

8. Read the docs again.

9. Started to play my character.

10. Frowned as my character was eaten by a tembo barely 3 hours into play after some neat interaction with a lone hunter.

11. Decided I wanted a break from MUDing for awhile.

12. Left for about sixth months.

13. Started thinking about it after talking to a friend.

14. Remembered that the Byn is a good place for newbies.

15. Designed brother characters with my friend and joined the byn.

16. Went on to great success. I feel i'm no longer a newbie. Not a veteran, by any means, but something inbetween.

Notice that when I as soley dependent on the documents, I had a good character concept but I didn't have a good grasp of HOW to play.

But when I began to work closely with someone, AND joined an active clan with some good mentors, my noobdom quickly evaporated.

My conclusion?

The docs aren't enough. We need mentors. Or at least heavy encouragement for first characters to join a clan with some other active members.

[kelviksson]

Let's not beat around the bush, you can TELL who newbies are. Now, if we want to show them some support (unless you run into one that hasn't read ANY documentation, which, in that case I will try to murder as soon as possible) we can find some very simple Ic ways to show them around. I happened to run into a group of newbies that after about 2 hours of 2 hours of some interesting roleplay I think I had given them a basic idea of the structure of atleast one city. And anyways, it is always good to have newbies. More player interaction is good. I also think our status on the mud board has helped a bit. By the way, remember to vote!!

[Maybe42or54]

P.s. Join the Byn.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

A newbie needs help because they don't know what they're supposed to type to find out what they're looking for. Will new players somehow magickally know that "areas" is the word they're looking for?

First time newbies really need help in knowing what to buy, they will spurge on a bow or something, because they are recommended to play human rangers/warriors. And then realise, the arrows cost so much!! Or the bow actually isn't what I need. Or damn this 300 sid bracer. I suggest to have the helpers better placed to help them.